Internal move. Exempt to non-exempt. Salary negotiation.

ymd

I have been working as an Exempt (hourly) employee in my company and I am now being offered another position which will be non-exempt (salaried) within the company. I will have to relocate to a much expensive area (over twice the cost of living) than where I am living now.

I have worked a significant over time this year constituting nearly 40% of my earnings. I am likely to start salary negotiations next week. I am looking for tips or pointers on how I should negotiate given my scenario. The new job on offer is something I truly love to take up. However, I want to negotiate with a level head and not rush into my new position and later end up regretting it. Should I aim for double my present salary with no overtime given the huge difference in cost of living? Should I aim lower or higher?

What should I consider as a "no go" offer? What would be a fair salary?

Somethings to note are:
1. I have a house to sell. Should I ask my employer if they can take care of all my relocation including sale of my house or negotiate a lump sum amount for relocation and I take care of relocation myself.
2. There is another position in the company, possibly in the same building as my new job would be that my wife is interested in and is qualified for. Would it be a bad idea to link my salary negotiation to my wife being considered for that job?

My future manager called me yesterday to tell that they have decided to make me an offer. The HR will be preparing my offer next week. So, I want to be prepared for salary negotiation. I would very much appreciate if any one in this forum can give me advice on how to negotiate. It will be great to hear anybody's personal experiences in similar circumstances too.

Lord Palington

I would stay as far away from #2 as possible. I've seen married couples at various jobs I've had, and sometimes it worked out okay, and sometimes it was a big deal (I had one boss whose wife was the head of HR, so any conflict with him that got elevated would go to his wife for final decisions). I imagine most companies would be okay with married folks working for the company, but I can't imagine one that would look well on that being a condition of employment.

Number 1 seems like a personal preference. Do you want to deal with selling a house and everything that comes with that? If no, ask them to handle it all. If yes, feel free to take whatever money they offer on top of what you can get for the house.

For the rest, I would bring your research on cost of living and your overtime pay last year into the meeting with you, that way you have some sources to back you up instead of just, "I've been looking at this, and ..."

Kipling

Overtime isn't really a consideration on an exempt salary, and shouldn't be the way to argue a raise. Your skills are what they are paying for.

Does taking this job mean that your wife quits hers because she has to move as well? If so, asking for assistance would not be unexpected. It largely depends on the company culture on hiring spouses and the job market in that area. A large enough company already would have rules on that.

The rest is largely internal - do you know of anyone outside of the current hiring process for this new job that did the same transition as the one you are considering? You probably want to invite that person to lunch or give them a call and ask them about their experience.

ymd

Thank you for your advice. My wife has not been working for several years now to take care of our children. She now feels like getting back into the job market. The position that is advertised in my company that I wrote about in the OP is an internship position for someone with little or no experience. My wife thinks it will be a good way of getting some experience before looking for a permanent position. I see your point about having my wife work in the same place as I do that can lead to awkward situations. However, being an internship position, would it be OK to ask about it without making it a precondition for my job acceptance?

I would rather not have the trouble of selling the house myself if the company can take care of it. I might ask and see if can do that for me to bring me on board quickly. If I have to sell my house, I may have to delay my joining date at least by a couple of months. I don't know how their reaction would be to this.

My interview went very well. At the time of my interview the HR said they have a few more candidates to interview before they can get back to me. However, my prospective boss called me within a few days and said he wants to make an offer without interviewing anyone else. I feel my future boss sees my value. I want to make sure that I get a fair salary that reflects my skills as well as the fact that I am moving to a much more expensive area. I really like this new position, at the same time I don't want my lifestyle to be adversely affected by the move. I will take your advice and present my earnings this year and bring in the fact of the very high cost of living when I open my negotiations. I hope it leads to a positive out come.

Lord Palington wrote: »

I would stay as far away from #2 as possible. I've seen married couples at various jobs I've had, and sometimes it worked out okay, and sometimes it was a big deal (I had one boss whose wife was the head of HR, so any conflict with him that got elevated would go to his wife for final decisions). I imagine most companies would be okay with married folks working for the company, but I can't imagine one that would look well on that being a condition of employment.

Number 1 seems like a personal preference. Do you want to deal with selling a house and everything that comes with that? If no, ask them to handle it all. If yes, feel free to take whatever money they offer on top of what you can get for the house.

For the rest, I would bring your research on cost of living and your overtime pay last year into the meeting with you, that way you have some sources to back you up instead of just, "I've been looking at this, and ..."

ymd

Thank you very much for your advice. I have answered your question regarding my wife in my last post.

I don't know how to put a dollar value to my skills easily. This is a move within the same company and I would naturally consider my present earnings as a basis for negotiation for my move. If I were moving from salaried to salaried job, it would have been easier to judge the new offer. As I will be moving from hourly to salary, I am finding it hard to come up with numbers that makes sense. Also, as I will be moving to a place that is over 2 1/2 times the cost of living compared to where I live now, it further complicates the issue.

Unfortunately, I don't know of anyone who has made a similar move in the company. However, I see how valuable your suggestion is. I will try and find if any of my friends or their friends have had gone through such a move and talk to them.

Kipling wrote: »

Overtime isn't really a consideration on an exempt salary, and shouldn't be the way to argue a raise. Your skills are what they are paying for.

Does taking this job mean that your wife quits hers because she has to move as well? If so, asking for assistance would not be unexpected. It largely depends on the company culture on hiring spouses and the job market in that area. A large enough company already would have rules on that.

The rest is largely internal - do you know of anyone outside of the current hiring process for this new job that did the same transition as the one you are considering? You probably want to invite that person to lunch or give them a call and ask them about their experience.

Powerpuppies

The company or hiring manager probably has a fixed $x-$y amount set in stone. How you approach it may affect whether you end up in the high end or low end of that range, but probably won't result in more than $y, less than $x, or the offer being pulled, no matter how poorly or well you approach it. The company probably doesn't care so much what you're making now or what your cost of living difference is... be prepared to walk away if their compensation scheme is out of whack.

My gut feeling is that you'll be surprised at how low they offer compared to regular overtime, and a "whoa, that's not going to work, let me explain my situation here, is there anything you can do for me" reaction is as likely as anything to get the real maximum they can offer. Whether that's high enough for you is something to really think about - don't take the move solely because you're excited about the new role if it doesn't make sense strategically.

Lord Palington

Mentioning the position your wife is looking at after your conversation with them about your job is finished should be fine. Otherwise, Powerpuppies seems to have the right of it.

zepherin

So it seams you got exempt and non exempt backwards. OT-Exempt is generally salaried and OT-Non-Exempt is generally hourly. Not always but generally that is how it is.

Now for the negotiations part. First determine gross income. Grab last years W-2 if you made 52000 last year Then know that your break even is 1000 a week plus cost of living changes. Get every increase in cost know the increase in mortgage cost increase in gas cost, all of them and put them in. If your mortgage is going up 1000 a month and your gas budget is going up 100 a month you need to ask for with taxes about an extra 18k a year to break even.

And no matter what, ask for an extra week of vacation.
Bolded for emphasis. Companies will almost always give that to you when you change positions. Especially if you are salaried.

ymd

Thank you all for your responses. Sorry for responding after so many days. I received a call from the hiring manager with an offer. It has turned out to be much lower than what I had expected. I did let him know that it is much lower than what my research of salary surveys shows. He responded that the HR would have done a thorough survey of salaries and they are offering me above average salary. The worse part is, when I was interviewing, the hiring manager had told me that considering my experience and background he is considering me for a higher position than what was advertised. Now, the offer is only at the advertised level.

The hiring manager told me that he is travelling out of the country for a week and can talk to me about the offer after he returns. This gives me time to formulate my response.

I am thinking of writing an email politely reminding him about the higher level he was considering me for. I am hoping that if he agrees to change the offer to the higher level he told he was considering, the salary might come closer to an acceptable range. In the email I want to write, I am also thinking of telling about my research of salary surveys and tell the range that would be acceptable to me. The reason why I want to write an email before talking on phone is to make sure the hiring manager knows what I am thinking. In a phone conversation words can get lost. Would this be an acceptable approach?

If I were to accept the present offer as is, it will be parallel move within the organization. Though the new job is very much to my liking, I am thinking of walking away if I am not offered the higher level that was suggested.

Powerpuppies

If I'm a hiring manager I'm only going to talk about hr salary surveys if I don't have the power to increase the salary or I'm not much interested in increasing the salary. I don't think any salary research you show him is going to matter to him, and it might seem petty/clueless/undignified. I'd skip the email, keep it short on the phone, say you make $X with overtime and half their cost of living, and if they can't move much from {low offer} then there's no way you can take the job. Leave it to him to counter or not and see if you can get off the phone quick and friendly without saying yes or no. Odds are you'll have to turn it down later after they get back to you with no increase or a small one.

Unless there's good promotion opportunities or something, and they throw in extra vacation maybe, and you can take it close to what they're offering now, at least temporarily.

dispatch.o

ymd wrote: »

Thank you all for your responses. Sorry for responding after so many days. I received a call from the hiring manager with an offer. It has turned out to be much lower than what I had expected. I did let him know that it is much lower than what my research of salary surveys shows. He responded that the HR would have done a thorough survey of salaries and they are offering me above average salary. The worse part is, when I was interviewing, the hiring manager had told me that considering my experience and background he is considering me for a higher position than what was advertised. Now, the offer is only at the advertised level.

The hiring manager told me that he is travelling out of the country for a week and can talk to me about the offer after he returns. This gives me time to formulate my response.

I am thinking of writing an email politely reminding him about the higher level he was considering me for. I am hoping that if he agrees to change the offer to the higher level he told he was considering, the salary might come closer to an acceptable range. In the email I want to write, I am also thinking of telling about my research of salary surveys and tell the range that would be acceptable to me. The reason why I want to write an email before talking on phone is to make sure the hiring manager knows what I am thinking. In a phone conversation words can get lost. Would this be an acceptable approach?

If I were to accept the present offer as is, it will be parallel move within the organization. Though the new job is very much to my liking, I am thinking of walking away if I am not offered the higher level that was suggested.

The following is based on instinct and personal experience.

Walk away. The hiring manager is basically being a shitbag at this point. Don't bother with an email or another conversation. HR doesn't just casually do a thorough survey of salaries. Market surveys take a long time and cost a pretty good amount of money to do properly, doing a search on glassdoor and taking the lowest number is what they probably offered you, and you should tell them to (not literally, be nice) fuck off. Switching someone from non-exempt hourly to salary with no increase in pay is a shitball thing to do.

Either:

The hiring manager doesn't know that's a shitty offer to make and doesn't understand what those terms mean. In which case why are they a hiring manager?
-or more likely-
The hiring manager is completely aware and doesn't care or is being given an incentive to get people to take bad deals.

Neither case puts them on your side.

Void Slayer

Check if the position is going to require as many hours as your current one. If you currently work a lot of OT and the new position will really normally be just 40 hours at the same yearly take then it is a raise. You could consider it a qol improvement, maybe allowing you more time to help out at home while your wife gets her new job.

If it is the same hours at the same rate but just salaried, yeah. Might want to still take the job, since it is easier to get a job when you have a job, but look for a new one when you finish up your move.

Basar

I'd skip the email. What I've learned in my 10 years of corporate life is that:

1. Be very open about your salary expectation.
2. Be ready to walk away if you feel that they are screwing you.
3. Don't do it on email, do it either on the phone or face to face.

Good luck.

zepherin

dispatch.o wrote: »

ymd wrote: »

Thank you all for your responses. Sorry for responding after so many days. I received a call from the hiring manager with an offer. It has turned out to be much lower than what I had expected. I did let him know that it is much lower than what my research of salary surveys shows. He responded that the HR would have done a thorough survey of salaries and they are offering me above average salary. The worse part is, when I was interviewing, the hiring manager had told me that considering my experience and background he is considering me for a higher position than what was advertised. Now, the offer is only at the advertised level.

The hiring manager told me that he is travelling out of the country for a week and can talk to me about the offer after he returns. This gives me time to formulate my response.

I am thinking of writing an email politely reminding him about the higher level he was considering me for. I am hoping that if he agrees to change the offer to the higher level he told he was considering, the salary might come closer to an acceptable range. In the email I want to write, I am also thinking of telling about my research of salary surveys and tell the range that would be acceptable to me. The reason why I want to write an email before talking on phone is to make sure the hiring manager knows what I am thinking. In a phone conversation words can get lost. Would this be an acceptable approach?

If I were to accept the present offer as is, it will be parallel move within the organization. Though the new job is very much to my liking, I am thinking of walking away if I am not offered the higher level that was suggested.

The following is based on instinct and personal experience.

Walk away. The hiring manager is basically being a shitbag at this point. Don't bother with an email or another conversation. HR doesn't just casually do a thorough survey of salaries. Market surveys take a long time and cost a pretty good amount of money to do properly, doing a search on glassdoor and taking the lowest number is what they probably offered you, and you should tell them to (not literally, be nice) fuck off. Switching someone from non-exempt hourly to salary with no increase in pay is a shitball thing to do.

Either:

The hiring manager doesn't know that's a shitty offer to make and doesn't understand what those terms mean. In which case why are they a hiring manager?
-or more likely-
The hiring manager is completely aware and doesn't care or is being given an incentive to get people to take bad deals.

Neither case puts them on your side.

Hiring mangers don't make the calls. In my experience as a Sr. Manager who is doing the interviews, budgeting and hiring makes the decision. The HR Manager handles the paperwork and the communications, but the Person who would be your boss makes the calls, and this seams like a time when that person says, offer them this, and is just waiting to see what will happen. Politely turn it down to the HR manager in person if it is practical or over the phone if it is not, as not wanting to take a pay hit, and move on. Let them figure out what to do from there.

You will probably get a call from the actual hiring authority if they really want you. That is a good time to have anything you want lined out. If they don't call you then it's because they think they can get someone cheaper, or found someone else, or some other bizarre reason your not privy too. I've seen some odd reasons not to hire or promote or give someone a raise.

Dhalphir

Total remuneration isn't always the most important thing. Look at the pay per hour. If the move to the new job means you make only two thirds of the total income, but work half as many hours, that could be a positive thing overall.

I mean, I don't know how much overtime you are doing right now, but if ~40% of your income is coming from overtime then I'd say it's safe to say you're doing 65-70 hour work weeks. Dropping down to a salaried position at 40 hours is never going to bring the same income because you're just flat out not working as much, but that doesn't mean it's a bad move.

ymd

Thank you all for your suggestions. As the hiring manager is still out of the country, I have a few more days to formulate my response. I am still thinking deeply about the offer. The main positive about the offer is the work/job itself is truly what I would like to do all my life. In terms of improvement in the quality of work, it is great and I don't want to lose it lightly. At the same time, I don't want to take the job when it means I have to sacrifice a lot of things in terms of quality of life for me and my family.

From all your responses, I think the best way to approach this is by actually talking to the hiring manager. I can do this only by phone as I am nowhere near him geographically. I want to see if something got botched up when they wrote up the offer. I will still keep my email ready and send it to the hiring manager just before I call so that he can be sure what I say and in case he wants to take my case to his manager, he will have my email to show.

I still have a secure and well paying job (compared to the offer), though the work is not that great. I think this gives me a good leverage to walk away if they don't meet me at a pay that I am comfortable with.

Thanks all. I will come back and post how the negotiations go as well as the outcome.

Basar

Do not send the email beforehand. He can be in a meeting or with a customer, etc and not be able to pick up the phone but can read emails.

Talk to him on the phone first and let him know that you can/will also share your justification/reasoning for not being able to accept the offer through email. Depending on his reaction on the phone, you can do the necessary adjustments in a few minutes and then send it.

ymd

Thanks for your suggestion. I think you are right about not sending the email earlier. I will give it a little more thought on this. My though process was, if I send him an email before I talk, he will have a good idea about what I am thinking. I want to work with him to reach an acceptable solution. My thinking is, if I give him an idea of my thoughts, he will have time to think about it before talking to me. That way we both can be on the same page during the call. I want to hear his reasoned thoughts than his gut reactions to what I say. What do you think?

Darkewolfe

If you were working with me and I was your hiring manager, anything you said to me in person I'd either immediately be able to say no to, or I'd say, "I have to talk to HR to see if we can meet that" so I'd prefer an e-mail ahead of time.

Powerpuppies

I think the risk of sending the email and coming off overformal and a poor communicator is too great. If the manager has to talk to other people or just wants some time to consider that's fine, get off the phone and wait for him to get back to you.