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Crime and Punishment (Not the Book)

QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
Spinning this off from the terrorism thread.

There are some clearly different opinions when it comes to criminals and how to treat them. Some want retribution, some want rehabilitation, etc. The discussion was sparked by the story of five afghan teenagers raping another teenager.

I personally find the sentence surprisingly short but don't contend to be an expert on what Sweden's more rehabilitation oriented criminal system is capable of. Swedish law also has the option of extending their sentences which they've made use of in other criminal cases. So ultimately I don't see a problem unless they're released before they're rehabilitated.

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  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    Panda4You wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    Panda4You wrote: »
    Paladin wrote: »
    Sweden can do what it wants. It's probably a good thing that the refugees went to Europe instead of here.
    You simply go for where the going is good.
    http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?dataset=migr_asyunaa&lang=en

    And I got curious about how come Quid were so obsessed with this one unrelated life sentence case... Turns out
    Quid wrote: »
    Panda4You wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    Panda4You wrote: »
    Polaritie wrote: »
    LostNinja wrote: »
    hsu wrote: »
    Speaking of not being able to deport undesirables...
    http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/fem-tonaringar-doms-for-grov-gruppvaldtakt/
    That's an article about 5 teenage Afghan refugees convicted of aggravated rape, with video evidence, whom Sweden refuses to deport once their sentence ends.

    Sure they could be potentially subjected to violence if they were deported back to Afghanistan, but since they already beat up and raped a teenager, I don't see why Sweden should give a rats ass what happens to them.

    "You've been charged with a crime and were found guilty! Anything that happens to you after this point is fair game; up to and including torture and death."

    Gee, that sure sounds like a winning strategy to me!

    We aren't talking about a minor offense though. I think rape and/or murder is a pretty fair place to draw that line.
    And I think there is no line, because you just don't do that shit in a civilized society.

    They committed a crime. They were sentenced, and they served that sentence. By rights, that should be the end of the matter. That it isn't is a huge problem in general, not just in the case of deportations.
    None of these fuckos are teenagers. :) It's just standard procedure to say you are, because that means an automatic stay , every expense paid by the government and get-out-of-jail cards.

    Max sentence for these scum, for rape, assault and death threats with a knife held against the boy (and filming the whole thing, of course) was 15 months in juvenile detention. These are not US penalties we're talking. :wink:
    And? Why is that along with Sweden's ability to extend sentences not long enough for rehabilitation?
    Extend sentences? That has never happened. :D Swedish standard is rather to let people out after 2/3 sentence served, for good behavior.
    These guys will be out on the street in a year, or less. And they know it. You can't put children in prison, after all. :wink:
    The bolded is demonstrably false.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leif_Axmyr

    A life sentence in Sweden can't extend past 21 years. Leif served 34 after multiple extensions. Gotta say that making things up doesn't make for a convincing argument.
    ...it's not me making shit up. :wink:
    https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livstids_fängelse_i_Sverige
    Google translate mishap? Since the only praxis mention of "21 years" is that people below that age can't be sentenced to life?
    Norway seems to have some sort of 21-years-with-possibility-of-extension system for max sentencing though? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_imprisonment It's easy to mix up these Scandinavian countrysides. :)
    Your article doesn't change anything I have said. Extended sentences happen. You were wrong to claim otherwise.
    Not without further aggravation, they don't. :) Which is what you started out claiming, only citing "further need for rehabilitation"?
    There is nothing in swedish law saying a "life sentence" can't stretch beyond 21 years (though earlier praxis have been to release "lifers" after a median of 21 served), which is what you've been going on and on about.

    But. I still don't know what life imprisonment has to do with a bunch of violent child rapists, whom in all likelihood are adults, serving 15 months or less... in correctional facilities for children?
    Send these fucks back, they'll fit right in. If Afghanistan doesn't suit them maybe they shouldn't have gangraped and assaulted a minor for over an hour? Just a minor misunderstanding of social norms, I'm sure.
    Quid wrote: »
    spool32 wrote: »
    Prohass wrote: »
    I think they should have longer sentences but I don't think they should be deported

    idk the context here but I think in general if you commit a crime in a foreign country the least you should have done to you is be thrown out. If you committed rape, you should serve the max then be discarded with no regard for what happens to you when the plane touches down in your home country.
    Why do you think the government shouldn't care about people? Cause that's what you're saying when you state the government should do X with no regard for what happens.

    If they committed rape they should be detained and rehabilitated until they are reformed. I don't understand this desire to heap extra cruel punishment on top of this.
    Ah, the old "open borders for all!" argument?
    These are not swedish citizens. They are afghani rapists. And should thus perhaps be Aghanistan's problem?

    Though the reality is that they're all here for life, the government paying every expense they might have for the next decade or so, making the point moot anyhow. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    For the first part: What Sweden's ability to extend sentences has to do with these particular people is that your claim Sweden doesn't extend sentences is false. Extending sentences allows for them to increase the time they spend being rehabilitated which is what would actually solve the problem. You otherwise propose what I would view as a cruel and unusual punishment which I don't agree with.

    For your second part I understand that they are not Swedish citizens. I don't care. They're people. And as far as I'm concerned no person should be subjected to cruel or unusual punishment. Human rights should apply to everyone regardless of where they were born.

    mrondeaurockrngerArdolGnome-InterruptusEchoTofystedethlonelyahavaKristmas KthulhuMegaMekTL DR
  • DunderDunder Registered User regular
    Just some side notes for the rape case:

    1. The age of consent in Sweden is 15
    2. The age of majority in Sweden is 18

    This means that while its legal for you to consent to have sex with anyone at 15 you are still considered to be a minor. Some (or all) of the rapists in this case are under 18 and therefore treated as minors which limits the severity of available punishments/incarceration.


    Siska
  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    Here is another infuriating recent case of bedlam. Man raped & killed a woman he happened to cross paths with (they didn't know each other), stole her car & money and stuffed her body into the rear of her car.

    To top it off, he has entered a troll not-guilty plea, claiming this woman he never met before totally offered herself up for sexytimes at random, then tragically committed suicide by hanging herself in the back of her car. But not before bequeathing all of her worldly possessions to him, of course.

    So now a public defender is going to have to deal with that garbage too, wasting public resources that are already stretched pretty thin.


    Right now, off of the back of that story, I'd love for this fellow to get the Batman treatment. But humans think in short terms; we want immediate gratification for our impulses. I do not think it's a good idea to have a state apparatus operate with likewise whimsy - especially not when it comes to matters like judicial systems or public safety. We tell the police to go beat this scumbag up in his cell because we're mad today, he has to live with the injuries for the rest of his life & we have to accept the oversight of the snap-judgement / eager for violence system as it hammers-out carnage over multiple decades. We end up with things like this as permanent fixtures in society, even after the villainy that led us to create such an institute has long faded from memory.


    All of the data we have suggests that the best prisons & justice systems are ones that aspire to treat lawbreakers - even the vile ones - with dignity & strive for leniency in sentencing. These systems reduce the number of terrible crimes that occur each year, while systems that aspire to create dungeons & treat criminals as a subhuman underclass seem to aggravate the number of terrible crimes that occur each year.

    With Love and Courage
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  • DunderDunder Registered User regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    All of the data we have suggests that the best prisons & justice systems are ones that aspire to treat lawbreakers - even the vile ones - with dignity & strive for leniency in sentencing.

    Can you post/link that data please? This is a topic where emotions tend to well in play so we definitely should share data on crime stats and recidivism etc. I think that would help keep this thread alive and not deteriorate into a mess of derptitude.

    Feral
  • HefflingHeffling No Pic EverRegistered User regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    Here is another infuriating recent case of bedlam. Man raped & killed a woman he happened to cross paths with (they didn't know each other), stole her car & money and stuffed her body into the rear of her car.

    To top it off, he has entered a troll not-guilty plea, claiming this woman he never met before totally offered herself up for sexytimes at random, then tragically committed suicide by hanging herself in the back of her car. But not before bequeathing all of her worldly possessions to him, of course.

    So now a public defender is going to have to deal with that garbage too, wasting public resources that are already stretched pretty thin.


    Right now, off of the back of that story, I'd love for this fellow to get the Batman treatment. But humans think in short terms; we want immediate gratification for our impulses. I do not think it's a good idea to have a state apparatus operate with likewise whimsy - especially not when it comes to matters like judicial systems or public safety. We tell the police to go beat this scumbag up in his cell because we're mad today, he has to live with the injuries for the rest of his life & we have to accept the oversight of the snap-judgement / eager for violence system as it hammers-out carnage over multiple decades. We end up with things like this as permanent fixtures in society, even after the villainy that led us to create such an institute has long faded from memory.


    All of the data we have suggests that the best prisons & justice systems are ones that aspire to treat lawbreakers - even the vile ones - with dignity & strive for leniency in sentencing. These systems reduce the number of terrible crimes that occur each year, while systems that aspire to create dungeons & treat criminals as a subhuman underclass seem to aggravate the number of terrible crimes that occur each year.

    If you start deciding ahead of time that someone isn't worthy of having a public defender, then you're effectively sentencing them without a trial. It's in the best interest of the public if the defender puts up with the 0.01% of cases that are like this so that the other 99.99% of cases that are legitimate are also fairly tried.

    And the last thing this country needs is more policemen or corrections officers abusing their power.

    If a movement doesn't have someone that can sit down opposite those in a position of power and strike a deal, how can that movement achieve success?
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  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    Dunder wrote: »
    The Ender wrote: »
    All of the data we have suggests that the best prisons & justice systems are ones that aspire to treat lawbreakers - even the vile ones - with dignity & strive for leniency in sentencing.

    Can you post/link that data please? This is a topic where emotions tend to well in play so we definitely should share data on crime stats and recidivism etc. I think that would help keep this thread alive and not deteriorate into a mess of derptitude.

    Recidivism in the U.S. results in 67~ percent of released prisoners being re-arrested for offenses within three years of release, while the Netherlands gets about 27~ percent of it's released prisoners back within two years.


    You do have to be
    very careful with direct comparisons because the recidivism reporting structures in every country's system is either incredibly flawed or incredibly biased or both - however, nations like the U.S. & Russia have (as a example) ridiculous prisoner per capita ratios that support the high recidivism data, while Switzerland, India & Norway rest around the bottom of that chart. Some of the U.S.'s specific prisoner per capita ratio is due to systemic racism as well, and this takes some of the blame away from the cruel prison system, but the Ukraine & Singapore suffer from similarly large (proportionally) prison populations without the stark ethnic divide. Caning & hanging people in the great city square doesn't seem to scare away criminal behavior.

    There are always further complications to the story the data tells, of course - it is illegal to be gay in Singapore, for example, to that probably pads-out the figures to some extent. But there is a strong confluence of results that swirl around countries that explicitly use brutal & hard line justice systems to stomp-out criminal activity: lots of people end up in jail, those same people often re-offend and the justice system often begins to buckle under the weight of trying to process so many criminals.

    With Love and Courage
    rockrngershrykeSiskaMegaMek
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    Recidivism often ties into convicted felons being unable to secure gainful employment, in the United States at least.

    Ender, do you know if job applications in the Netherlands have questions about the criminal history of job applicants?

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  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Recidivism often ties into convicted felons being unable to secure gainful employment, in the United States at least.

    Ender, do you know if job applications in the Netherlands have questions about the criminal history of job applicants?

    Funny you should ask that; the Netherlands recently launched a program designed to incentivize employers to hire people who just got out of prison.

    It's also worth mentioning that Dutch prisons operate on a multi-tier structure; you go into what you might see as a more conventional western prison (albeit one without the bars or wanton trappings of cruelty), and you graduate out of that into much more communal institutes where you're taught work trades & social skills. These institutes are also positioned to be partially incorporated into neighborhoods. I don't doubt that there is nevertheless still an inherent prejudice against hiring criminals (you do still get a criminal record & employers can still check it), but these sorts of programs help to mitigate the impact.

    With Love and Courage
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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    Thanks for the info, that's exactly the kind of stuff that I would have expected would tie into the lower recidivism rate.

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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    As someone who has experienced multiple people (goddammit internet) being upset that I wouldn't meet up with them to sex them to literal death, yeah, everyone needs a trial and an investigation and actual evidence regardless of how "obvious" something is.

  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Quid wrote: »
    Spinning this off from the terrorism thread.

    There are some clearly different opinions when it comes to criminals and how to treat them. Some want retribution, some want rehabilitation, etc. The discussion was sparked by the story of five afghan teenagers raping another teenager.

    I personally find the sentence surprisingly short but don't contend to be an expert on what Sweden's more rehabilitation oriented criminal system is capable of. Swedish law also has the option of extending their sentences which they've made use of in other criminal cases. So ultimately I don't see a problem unless they're released before they're rehabilitated.

    The ability to extend the sentence makes sense in this context. I'd compare it to Ethan Couch, who many people think "got off" because he walked with a decade of probation for killing four people in a DUI. He didn't get off though, he got a sentence that allowed for the possibility that he was able to rehabilitate, and that perhaps prison wasn't even the best place to do that. However, probation also means he had greater government scrutiny of his life...and he violated that probation, which means now he is in prison for that crime (or was), and his probation was extended even further.

    Incenjucar wrote: »
    As someone who has experienced multiple people (goddammit internet) being upset that I wouldn't meet up with them to sex them to literal death, yeah, everyone needs a trial and an investigation and actual evidence regardless of how "obvious" something is.

    Amen. Things happen, and there are some weird ass people out there.

    rockrngerQuidNobeardEdith UpwardsCalica
  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    How to treat convicted criminals aside, nobody can be trusted with the power to easily convict a person of choice.

  • SanderJKSanderJK Crocodylus Pontifex Sinterklasicus Madrid, 3000 ADRegistered User regular
    Americas whole justice system needs such a big overhaul it's hard to say where to begin.

    Criminals do not exist in a vacuum. There are a ton of people that are completely terrible but most didn't start out that way.
    There are some that are true threat to society, and your system needs some way to to deal with them. In the Dutch system (TBS), where if a court convicts you of this you basically only get out if you served your time AND go through a very lengthy psychological evaluation track (which averages 5 years, but 40 years has happened....) before you are cleared. There are details wrong with it that are out of scope here probably.

    The USA is actually a prime example that the threat of severe punishment is a terrible deterrent. You have over 10x the people per capita in prison than Scandivian countries, yet your rate of crimes are mostly the same. (Apart from guncrimes which are like 5-10x depending on the stats, another story, but not impactful for the total prison population). The recidivism is also way higher. No matter what the actual punishment is the USA, chances are your life is ruined.

    Over here people do not have a criminal record, as much as that any employer can ask an employee to ask the government "Is there any indication that person X cannot be trusted with task Y" (Called a Declaration of Behavior). The broad categories are money, privacy, taking care of the vulnerable (elderly, children, young people) etcet. And you get back a paper that says "There is no indication" or you don't get a paper at all. This can potentially close some avenues, but it doesn't end your career.

    The courts should not be blind that a part of the punishment is retribution, but it should keep the whole of society in mind too. Long prison sentences are not ineffective, they are expensive and probably harmful. Bad prisons create career criminals.

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  • VeeveeVeevee WisconsinRegistered User regular
    I think the biggest challenge to criminal justice reform here in America is the common belief that if you commit a serious enough crime you are somehow now less than human. You see it in the language used on these boards and elsewhere, but once someone has committed a crime serious enough they are no longer a person but instead become an it, a thing, an animal, etc. The severity needed varies from person to person for a wide variety of reasons, but once you stop thinking of a person as a person it's incredibly easy to justify even the most barbaric of punishments.

    To me, this is the very first and possibly only thing that needs to be fixed to change the criminal justice system for the better. I just don't see it ever really changing as Othering is basic human behavior and takes a constant, conscience effort to prevent yourself from falling into that trap and I think that's just asking far too much from the American public.

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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited January 2017
    Veevee wrote: »
    I think the biggest challenge to criminal justice reform here in America is the common belief that if you commit a serious enough crime you are somehow now less than human. You see it in the language used on these boards and elsewhere, but once someone has committed a crime serious enough they are no longer a person but instead become an it, a thing, an animal, etc. The severity needed varies from person to person for a wide variety of reasons, but once you stop thinking of a person as a person it's incredibly easy to justify even the most barbaric of punishments.

    To me, this is the very first and possibly only thing that needs to be fixed to change the criminal justice system for the better. I just don't see it ever really changing as Othering is basic human behavior and takes a constant, conscience effort to prevent yourself from falling into that trap and I think that's just asking far too much from the American public.

    I had a disagreement with some of my relatives about this Othering over the holidays. They brought up how Obama has pardoned a bunch of people and were spouting some spurious claims about how he was pardoning violent offenders or whatever which I wasn't about to start looking up on my phone in order to counter but then they mentioned something about restoring felon's voting rights and I asked them: Why should someone lose their voting rights for their entire life, after serving their time? You could be in jail for 3-5 years at age 18 and never be able to vote, ever. How can that possibly be a justifiable punishment, where someone will live 50+ years but because they had a little weed on them in college they will never be able to vote?

    They just kept saying "well they shouldn't have done that", the implication being that all punishment is justified. They couldn't parse that their niece or nephew could easily end up with a charge like this, because they are "good kids" which means that people who commit crimes are bad and are always bad.

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  • rockrngerrockrnger Registered User regular
    It's always illustrative how race/class/nationalism figure into all this.

    wrongfully conviction
    A recent study of felony convicts exonerated by DNA evidence reveals the following pattern. From 1989 to 2003, of all men convicted of rape, 58 percent were white and 29 percent were black. Of rape convicts exonerated on the basis of DNA evidence, 28 percent were white and 64 percent were black. This is strong evidence that innocent blacks are falsely convicted of felonies at a far higher rate than innocent whites are. 93 Furthermore, although black-on-white rapes are far less than 10 percent of all rapes, half of all DNA rape exonerations are of blacks convicted of raping a white victim.

    Tried as adults
    Black youth are more likely than white youth with equivalent records and charges to be tried as adults.

    With similar effects for likelihood of stop and greater sentences than white defendants

    One thing that could help is making sure that juries are racially diverse.
    Experiments with mock juries show that racially integrated juries take more time to deliberate about their case, and that the quality of their deliberation is superior to that of all-white juries. They consider more facts, make fewer inaccurate statements, leave fewer inaccurate statements uncorrected, and more frequently raise questions about “missing” evidence (evidence that would be needed to make the prosecution’s case convincing). They are smarter and more conscientious. These are reasons to adopt a general policy to select jurors with the aim of creating racially integrated juries.

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  • HonkHonk Honk is this poster. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited January 2017
    @Panda4You are you Swedish?
    None of these fuckos are teenagers.
    Good thing these "kids" aren't in "for life" then? :wink:

    People outside of Sweden might not realize the xenophobic weight this these statements carry due to how that argument is being used solely by the extreme right and neo nazis here. So I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt but like, think about how you express yourself. It matters, especially if you want to make a point about an issue. Shit like that statement is found only in neo nazi media and in statements from neo nazis here. It's a point they're very keen on making over and over without any indication to it being the truth in any significant number.

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  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Veevee wrote: »
    I think the biggest challenge to criminal justice reform here in America is the common belief that if you commit a serious enough crime you are somehow now less than human. You see it in the language used on these boards and elsewhere, but once someone has committed a crime serious enough they are no longer a person but instead become an it, a thing, an animal, etc. The severity needed varies from person to person for a wide variety of reasons, but once you stop thinking of a person as a person it's incredibly easy to justify even the most barbaric of punishments.

    To me, this is the very first and possibly only thing that needs to be fixed to change the criminal justice system for the better. I just don't see it ever really changing as Othering is basic human behavior and takes a constant, conscience effort to prevent yourself from falling into that trap and I think that's just asking far too much from the American public.

    Agree. I think part of the problem is everybody...at least among those in the upper social classes...thinks it cant happen to them or someone they love and care about. Until it does.

    Nobeard
  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Veevee wrote: »
    I think the biggest challenge to criminal justice reform here in America is the common belief that if you commit a serious enough crime you are somehow now less than human. You see it in the language used on these boards and elsewhere, but once someone has committed a crime serious enough they are no longer a person but instead become an it, a thing, an animal, etc. The severity needed varies from person to person for a wide variety of reasons, but once you stop thinking of a person as a person it's incredibly easy to justify even the most barbaric of punishments.

    To me, this is the very first and possibly only thing that needs to be fixed to change the criminal justice system for the better. I just don't see it ever really changing as Othering is basic human behavior and takes a constant, conscience effort to prevent yourself from falling into that trap and I think that's just asking far too much from the American public.

    Agree. I think part of the problem is everybody...at least among those in the upper social classes...thinks it cant happen to them or someone they love and care about. Until it does.

    I've seen it happen both ways. People get more or less harsh towards criminals depending on how crime affected them personally.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    A major issue is the defunding of public defenders. Andrew Cuomo would like to keep it that way.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
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  • Apothe0sisApothe0sis Have you ever questioned the nature of your reality? Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Veevee wrote: »
    I think the biggest challenge to criminal justice reform here in America is the common belief that if you commit a serious enough crime you are somehow now less than human. You see it in the language used on these boards and elsewhere, but once someone has committed a crime serious enough they are no longer a person but instead become an it, a thing, an animal, etc. The severity needed varies from person to person for a wide variety of reasons, but once you stop thinking of a person as a person it's incredibly easy to justify even the most barbaric of punishments.

    To me, this is the very first and possibly only thing that needs to be fixed to change the criminal justice system for the better. I just don't see it ever really changing as Othering is basic human behavior and takes a constant, conscience effort to prevent yourself from falling into that trap and I think that's just asking far too much from the American public.

    I had a disagreement with some of my relatives about this Othering over the holidays. They brought up how Obama has pardoned a bunch of people and were spouting some spurious claims about how he was pardoning violent offenders or whatever which I wasn't about to start looking up on my phone in order to counter but then they mentioned something about restoring felon's voting rights and I asked them: Why should someone lose their voting rights for their entire life, after serving their time? You could be in jail for 3-5 years at age 18 and never be able to vote, ever. How can that possibly be a justifiable punishment, where someone will live 50+ years but because they had a little weed on them in college they will never be able to vote?

    They just kept saying "well they shouldn't have done that", the implication being that all punishment is justified. They couldn't parse that their niece or nephew could easily end up with a charge like this, because they are "good kids" which means that people who commit crimes are bad and are always bad.

    People are strongly committed to the just world fallacy.

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  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    A major issue is the defunding of public defenders. Andrew Cuomo would like to keep it that way.

    What's the status of the Louisiana public defenders basically going on strike, anyways?

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  • GnizmoGnizmo Registered User regular
    Polaritie wrote: »
    A major issue is the defunding of public defenders. Andrew Cuomo would like to keep it that way.

    What's the status of the Louisiana public defenders basically going on strike, anyways?

    Waiting basically. Locally it looks like the city council is going to take money from the DA to give it to the public defenders office, but that's nitna guarantee. A few people on the council were pissed that the DA was asking for more money since they take 90% of the cases presented by a police department that is being smacked around by the feds for being terrible. I think it will only be resolved once it hits some federal courts though as I am pretty certain they are doing this to give their potential clients standing to sue.

    Also not a full strike so much as refusing to take on more than x amount of cases because they can't adequately provide legal council past a certain caseload. Mostly to clarify for those following along that weren't aware.

  • Apothe0sisApothe0sis Have you ever questioned the nature of your reality? Registered User regular
    edited January 2017
    The just world fallacy is interesting because it combines the ever present and godawful seductive power of affirming the consequent with comforting lies about the world/things people want to believe

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  • dispatch.odispatch.o Registered User regular
    edited January 2017
    I posted a disjointed stupid thing, quotes and apology below.

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  • redxredx I(x)=2(x)+1 whole numbersRegistered User regular
    edited January 2017
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    The just world fallacy is interesting because it combines the ever present and godawful seductive power of affirming the consequent with comforting lies about the world/things people want to believe

    It's also a deeply held concept in most religions. So you end up with people learning about a Quaker Pilgrim Justice™ style of punishment as part of their faith indoctrination which often conflicts with logic anyway. Lot's of people grow up and gain experiences that correct their perspective and reasoning abilities even despite that. Plenty of them do not, however... as is evidence by how often people like to claim "an eye for an eye" is about vengeance, when it refers to the punishment fitting of the crime, which sounds awful but at the time I'm sure was quite a moderate idea.

    I think a punishment centered justice system is inherently flawed. You don't yell at a dog or smack it around just for fun unless you want a dysfunctional vicious unstable dog. People don't work all that differently.

    I do suspect that what we would probably end out with is our secured mental health facilities needs going up about a billion percent and our prison system existing only as a holding area for people currently going through the court system awaiting a trial or sentence/diagnosis. I'm honestly okay with that.

    Edit: Some people are legitimately damaged and/or unstable and you can't help them but that's not really for the prison system or a judge to decide before an attempt at treatment has been made. Maybe a significant number of people will always be a danger to themselves or others and spend the rest of their lives in prison. I really doubt that it's the near 1% of the adult population currently in prison (2,220,300) and the nearly 2% of the adult population (4,751,400) currently on parole or probation.


    Could you go into a bit of detail about "Quaker Pilgrim Justice™" and how it pertains to any actual history involving the Society of Friends and their ideas about justice and the reformation of criminals? I mean, there's some kinda fucked up history involved in how best to reform criminals, an early misbelief that isolation and silent reflection taken to extremes is not actually really harmful, but somehow, I think... that's not what you are talking about.

    Seriously... what are you talking about? Because I'm pretty sure it is about 180 degrees opposed to what Quakers currently teach and what they have historically taught. The fact that you are associating them with a puritanical group that founded Massachusetts Colony, where quakers were hanged for their religious beliefs, would seem to belie your gross ignorance of this topic.

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  • Apothe0sisApothe0sis Have you ever questioned the nature of your reality? Registered User regular
    Well that escalated quickly

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  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    To my understanding, having worked with a number of very politically active Quakers over the years, the creation of the penitentiary is viewed as having been a huge mistake by modern Quakers. Imposing penance on others is now recognized as being not just ineffective, but counter productive to the goals and ethos of the Friends.

    Luckily (for terribleness), American Protestantism is was more than happy to pick up that ball and run with it.

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  • redxredx I(x)=2(x)+1 whole numbersRegistered User regular
    It's just, you know, Quakers as a rule oppose the death penalty and support reformation, and many
    specific individuals dedicate themselves to advocating for accused and convicted criminals.

    It's actually pretty damn offensive to see them attacked by someone who the sum total of their knowledge of Quakers quite possibly is taken from an oatmeal box and the fact that other, not particullarly related, religions also have practitioners in Pennsylvania. That this level of knowledge is the norm is frustrating.

    Post edited slightly to be less aggressive. I am sort of interested in what sort of thing related to reality the Quaker bit there is based.

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  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    redx wrote: »
    I am sort of interested in what sort of thing related to reality the Quaker bit there is based.

    Eastern State Penitentiary, which I believe is the first such place to call itself "penitentiary" but I may be wrong, was built in Pennsylvania and a lot of its design decisions were inspired by Quaker religious practices.

    That's where the link comes from, historically.

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  • redxredx I(x)=2(x)+1 whole numbersRegistered User regular
    edited January 2017
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    To my understanding, having worked with a number of very politically active Quakers over the years, the creation of the penitentiary is viewed as having been a huge mistake by modern Quakers. Imposing penance on others is now recognized as being not just ineffective, but counter productive to the goals and ethos of the Friends.

    Luckily (for terribleness), American Protestantism is was more than happy to pick up that ball and run with it.

    Yes, and even then the point of the system was not to punish but to reform, and when they figured out it didn't actually work they stopped it, and it had nothing at all to do with the Calvinist-ish belief in predestination--which the pilgrims held, Apothe0sis was describing, and I'm 99% sure Quakers at no point failed to reject.



    The whole be quiet and reflect on god and yourself thing is how quakers actually practice their faith. Comparing that to abusive forced labor prisons, it's not hard to get around to thinking "doing this all the time will make people better", instead of "being isolated for 24 hours a day makes people insane". It's more they were wrong about what people need to fundamentally be people, then trying to create a horrible punitive system to punish bad people.



    It's also a good example for why using isolation either a punishment(the hole) or standard operating procedure(many supermax setups) in modern prisons is harmful and probably almost always counterproductive.

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  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    Well, Eastern State Pen was open until 1971. So even though the modern Quakers have rejected the concept as having failed, the legacy didn't end immediately. People were still being held in 4x4 rooms with no beds this side of the Vietnam War.

    I'm definitely not placing any blame on modern Quakers, as I've never met one that wasn't very progressive and humanist in their outlooks on criminal justice. But it's their word that's still on our modern mass prisons, and that comes with some baggage in these discussions.

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  • Apothe0sisApothe0sis Have you ever questioned the nature of your reality? Registered User regular
    redx wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    To my understanding, having worked with a number of very politically active Quakers over the years, the creation of the penitentiary is viewed as having been a huge mistake by modern Quakers. Imposing penance on others is now recognized as being not just ineffective, but counter productive to the goals and ethos of the Friends.

    Luckily (for terribleness), American Protestantism is was more than happy to pick up that ball and run with it.

    Yes, and even then the point of the system was not to punish but to reform, and when they figured out it didn't actually work they stopped it, and it had nothing at all to do with the Calvinist-ish belief in predestination--which the pilgrims held, Apothe0sis was describing, and I'm 99% sure Quakers at no point failed to reject.

    I wasn't describing predestination or any explicitly religious belief.

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  • dispatch.odispatch.o Registered User regular
    redx wrote: »
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    The just world fallacy is interesting because it combines the ever present and godawful seductive power of affirming the consequent with comforting lies about the world/things people want to believe

    It's also a deeply held concept in most religions. So you end up with people learning about a Quaker Pilgrim Justice™ style of punishment as part of their faith indoctrination which often conflicts with logic anyway. Lot's of people grow up and gain experiences that correct their perspective and reasoning abilities even despite that. Plenty of them do not, however... as is evidence by how often people like to claim "an eye for an eye" is about vengeance, when it refers to the punishment fitting of the crime, which sounds awful but at the time I'm sure was quite a moderate idea.

    I think a punishment centered justice system is inherently flawed. You don't yell at a dog or smack it around just for fun unless you want a dysfunctional vicious unstable dog. People don't work all that differently.

    I do suspect that what we would probably end out with is our secured mental health facilities needs going up about a billion percent and our prison system existing only as a holding area for people currently going through the court system awaiting a trial or sentence/diagnosis. I'm honestly okay with that.

    Edit: Some people are legitimately damaged and/or unstable and you can't help them but that's not really for the prison system or a judge to decide before an attempt at treatment has been made. Maybe a significant number of people will always be a danger to themselves or others and spend the rest of their lives in prison. I really doubt that it's the near 1% of the adult population currently in prison (2,220,300) and the nearly 2% of the adult population (4,751,400) currently on parole or probation.


    Could you go into a bit of detail about "Quaker Pilgrim Justice™" and how it pertains to any actual history involving the Society of Friends and their ideas about justice and the reformation of criminals? I mean, there's some kinda fucked up history involved in how best to reform criminals, an early misbelief that isolation and silent reflection taken to extremes is not actually really harmful, but somehow, I think... that's not what you are talking about.

    Seriously... what are you talking about? Because I'm pretty sure it is about 180 degrees opposed to what Quakers currently teach and what they have historically taught. The fact that you are associating them with a puritanical group that founded Massachusetts Colony, where quakers were hanged for their religious beliefs, would seem to belie your gross ignorance of this topic.

    I worded a thing poorly and meant to imply that Quakers with the appeal to reason and opposition to corporal punishment were the ones persecuted. There isn't an especially good reason I did so, though in the future I will have to reread things more carefully before I post them, especially the drafts that are saved by the forums. I meant no offense, I sincerely apologize and didn't mean to derail the thread. I'll edit the post.

  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Fuck you, Cuomo the Lesser:
    Gov. Cuomo vetoed a bill late Saturday that would have required the state to fund legal services for the poor in each county.

    Cuomo’s office in a New Year’s Eve statement released just over an hour before the bill was required to be signed or vetoed said last-minute negotiations with the Legislature to address the governor’s concerns failed to yield a deal.

    “Until the last possible moment, we attempted to reach an agreement with the Legislature that would have achieved the stated goal of this legislation, been fiscally responsible, and had additional safeguards to ensure accountability and transparency,” Cuomo spokesman Richard Azzopardi said. “Unfortunately, an agreement was unable to be reached and the Legislature was committed to a flawed bill that placed an $800 million burden on taxpayers — $600 million of which was unnecessary — with no way to pay for it and no plan to make one.”

    ***
    Jonathan Gradess, executive director of the New York State Defenders Association, called Cuomo’s decision to veto the bill “stunning.”

    “We are all shocked that the Governor vetoed a bill that would have reduced racial disparities in the criminal justice system, helped ensure equal access to justice for all New Yorkers, provided improved public defense programs for those who cannot afford an attorney, and much-needed mandate relief for counties, Gradess said. “The governor refused to accept an independent oversight mechanism on state quality standards, and now, sadly tens of thousands of low-income defendants will pay the price.”

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  • knitdanknitdan Registered User regular
    Apparently the Legislature passed that back in June and he waited until they ended their session so they couldn't override the veto.

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  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    Wow, a whole 800 million?

    NYC has, what, 8~ million taxpayers? So, a hundred bucks a head per year to keep a reasonable justice system up? Egads, oh woah, such costs!



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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    Wow, a whole 800 million?

    NYC has, what, 8~ million taxpayers? So, a hundred bucks a head per year to keep a reasonable justice system up? Egads, oh woah, such costs!

    NYS has around 20 million folks so it's even less than that.

    I've been leery of Cuomo for awhile but most of the other stupid shit had a patina of reasonableness about it. This is just straight up fucking "I WANT TO BE PRESIDENT" bullshit. Along with his winking tolerance of the "Independent Democrats" I'm willing to vote for pretty much anybody else next time around.

  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    Wow, a whole 800 million?

    NYC has, what, 8~ million taxpayers? So, a hundred bucks a head per year to keep a reasonable justice system up? Egads, oh woah, such costs!

    NYS has around 20 million folks so it's even less than that.

    I've been leery of Cuomo for awhile but most of the other stupid shit had a patina of reasonableness about it. This is just straight up fucking "I WANT TO BE PRESIDENT" bullshit. Along with his winking tolerance of the "Independent Democrats" I'm willing to vote for pretty much anybody else next time around.

    Cuomo maxed out the dickweasel sensor when he helped keep the legislature split between Rs and Ds. This is such a horrible move that the only way it'll help him on a presidential run is if he does it as a Republican.

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  • Captain MarcusCaptain Marcus now arrives the hour of actionRegistered User regular
    As a conservative I'm naturally in favor of the "punishment" side of our legal system. Rehabilitation is great and something that America greatly needs to improve upon but I think that some people shouldn't be offered that chance (i.e., ones that have committed crimes so inhumane/depraved as to warrant the death penalty).

    Example- a Pennsylvanian woman adopted a teenage orphan together with her boyfriend, then raped and murdered her over the course of over 20 hours as part of a shared sexual fetish. I believe that what these two have done puts them beyond any conception of mercy or leniency and that they should be put to death as soon as possible.

    Most of you here would probably disagree. So I ask you, how can you rehabilitate monsters like these? Why should society spend its limited resources on the attempt?

    Perhaps most importantly, why should we let those who kill children live? This also applies to other particularly evil crimes- slavery, serial rape, serial murder, cannibalism, etc.

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