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Ghost in the Shell 2017: Race, Culture, and Adaptation (Open Spoilers)
Kana
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
So It Goes wrote: »May I suggest that someone make a GitS movie thread
In 1995, Mamoru Oshii released the influential animated film Ghost in the Shell, based on the 1989 manga by Masamune Shirow, about the cybernetic Major Motoko Kusanagi.
This weekend the new Hollywood live action adaptation is coming out, starring Scarlett Johansson, as Major Motoko Kusanagi Mira Killian.
Here's a scene from the movie. Much to my surprise, it actually looks pretty cool:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msUF-nAe9uwThis thread is for two things. First is just discussing the movie. Hollywood is releasing a hella cyberpunk sci-fi action movie starring a woman with brain hacking and shit! Dude!
The other is discussing issues of culture and race around the movie. The casting of Johansson has been widely criticized as yet another case of Hollywood whitewashing and the industry's continuing unwillingness to cast Asian actors as movie leads. But opinions have been mixed over a variety of issues the adaptation has brought up - is GitS an inherently Japanese story? Is the localization of a story inherently disrespectful or destructive towards that story's themes? Should the adaptation be held to blame in particular for a general industry failing?
As a probably unnecessary side note, the PA forum mods dislike anime threads, so let's limit our anime content to exploration of ideas that directly inform the 2017 film. Comparing the movie to the 1995 animated version is appropriate. Comparing it to anime that also happen to have drawn inspiration from GitS is not. Posting anime titties from the 1995 movie for the lolz is also not, duh.
Some interesting takes have already been published:
Emily Yoshida wrote an interesting article examining the presentation of race vs. culture in '95 GitS
Whitewashing is very real, and the deficit of starring roles for Asians is one lane in the representation race that is stubbornly slow to advance. But in the case of Kusanagi, an anime character, it's not as simple as Japanese or white. The issue of representation feels cozily easy to understand here in the US — you either are or aren't represented — compared to the long history of self-erasure in post-war Japanese narratives. It's a dense, depressing history, and by the end of it I probably will still come to the conclusion that casting Johansson was the wrong move. But perhaps — and this is just a guess — the Ghost in the Shell adaptation shouldn't have been an American production in the first place.
Jon Tsuei, (link to whole series of tweets) a comic book writer, argued on twitter that GitS is an inherently Japanese story, and westernizing it destroys it:
Simon Abrams, film & TV critic, argues that critical responses to the GitS adaptation are themselves racially, or at least culturally, problematic:
What'd you guys think?
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
So It Goes on
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The fact that so many people miss this point in their rush to complain about whitewashing (which is a real problem as anyone with half a brain will tell you) is frankly mystifying to me.
That having been said: I will reserve judgement of the film until I've had an opportunity to actually watch it (which I would advise anyone who wants to poo poo the film to do).
He also seemed to be against the claims of whitewashing. However, in the same interview he also said that nobody complained when John Wayne played Genghis Khan, so he either doesn't get it or doesn't care.
I've also seen some discussion among the Asian-American individuals I know on Facebook about whether the opinions of people living in Asia matter in these kinds of issues. Some want to include their perspective, but more dismiss them, saying that those people don't understand the Asian-American experience and that listening to them is akin to saying that they are the "real Asians" whose opinions matter more than those of Asian-Americans.
Adapting a story can absolutely change the meaning of it. District 9 in Canada ceases to be an allegory for apartheid. But does that make it any less entertaining?
Guess I'll have to wait and see.
I disagree, there are various anime/manga that can have non-Asian leads without skipping a beat (Death Note, Fullmetal Alchemist, Attack on Titan) GiTS is a Japanese centric IP. You're right that that is a solid basis for recasting characters into new ethnicities, and opens up a lot of potential for casting various ethnic leads - however, Hollywood continues to ignore the broader freedom such an idea would create to cast white people. As far as I know they never bothered searching for non-white actresses for the role, or to give the Major bodies from other ethnicities. What's problematic about what they do with this opportunity is make sure the only choice ends up being is white. Not black, not Indian, not Native American, not another Asian ethnicity (Korean, Chinese etc) etc.
I don't think people are missing the point at all, it's that they're upset that the solution Hollywood always comes up with is to cast a white person. Besides, it's not like a role like this couldn't go to an Asian actress. Yet another opportunity missed.
Overall the casting is pretty good and diverse, except when it comes to the biggest role in the franchise. Then it has to be white.
People usually don't go into movies cold before forming some sort of opinions either, that's what the trailers and promotions are for. Which hasn't entirely been 100% awesome to people. That said, this hasn't been entirely bad, the clip of the first five minutes was praised highly in the trailer thread. That as a great sequence to bring in the customers.
Like, actual plot spoilers, if it's accurate, here, relating to this topic:
That is: She's originally a Japanese woman, named Motoko, played by an asian actress, who is then put into the full body prosthetic. Named Mira. Which is the body Johansen is playing.
No idea if they actually address the rather obvious question(s) involved in such a reveal.
I can answer that question
The movie never even touches the fact they turned a Japanese girl into Scarlett Johanssen. We aren't given any reason why they chose that body for her.
edit: The movie doesn't really explore what makes a person a person either. They make some rote speeches which feel forced because this is GiTS so they have to at least pretend to care about the subject and call backs to better adaptions or the manga itself but they do literally nothing with it.
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
I can see why they demanded a white person for the role of Light. In america, Light really only works as a white person. Light's motivation, actions, and psychology demand a level of privilege that is exclusive to white americans. The demonstration of casual hatred, lack of empathy for "thugs" or "criminals", the love of the death penalty as a "preventative measure"; in America, that character is stereotypically a white person.
Now, imagine in a world where there is no Death Note manga or anime, having Youtube on autoplay in the background one day and suddenly you hear someone saying that rant out loud in English. When you turn to your monitor to find out what kind of asshole would say such shitty things, what kind of face would you imagine you'd see?
Steam ID XBL: JohnnyChopsocky PSN:Stud_Beefpile WiiU:JohnnyChopsocky
Yes, I get it. She's a cyborg. Most of the stars are cyborgs. Motoko in particular is subject to redesign based on the concepts of beauty, which in modern Japanese culture is fixated on Western concepts of beauty. See ridiculously racist horrifyingly recent Japanese washing detergent TV advertisement of a Japanese woman throwing her black boyfriend into the wash and turning him into a pale skinned Japanese man for reference.
That still doesn't make this right!
It doesn't explain her pathetically westernised name! It doesn't explain her ridiculous faux Japanese schoolgirl haircut! It doesn't explain why the biggest Japanese franchise outside of Godzilla, a franchise that is intrinsically a study of modern Japanese identity, has every Asian actor in it reduced to a couple of lines here and there!
IT DOES NOT EXPLAIN WHY HIDEO KUZE IS BEING PLAYED BY MICHAEL FUCKING PITT!
God fucking DAMMIT! JUST when we get the crew behind The Handmaid's Tail going "Yes the source material erases people of colour and yes there's a very good reason for that and it's actually an important part of the overall message of the book but let's be honest here, it's a fucked up thing for a TV show to do in 2017, so we're just gonna go ahead and have a diverse cast and explore those concepts in other ways." JUST when we get that show making that entirely obvious leap of logic we end up with this steaming pile of excrement of a movie doing THIS!
Don't fucking tell me the characters are cyborgs and it's all part of the source material! You're missing the point and you KNOW it!
Ghost in the Shell: watch Scarlett Johansson play a sexy cyborg cop.
Spoilers from the ol' movie and series
it does suck that they didn't cast an Asian actor to play Motoko, but if ever there was a role to 'get away' with whitewashing, it's this one.
if it helps at all, I believe the new movie does go into the difference in name as part of the plot.
Slight nitpick here, that commercial was Chinese.
Wait, it was?
Wow. That has to be the first time I've gone on a massive rant about racism and accidentally been racist.
I mean I hope it is.
Oh dear Gods it so doesn't help. At all.
I mean honestly, off the top of your head, name the last big budget Hollywood movie you watched with an Asian lead.
*edit* I appreciate the attempt though :P but yeah, again, Kuze's cyborg didn't have the same identity issues in the source text, so what the fuck?!
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/ghost_in_the_shell_2017/
I know a lot of people here wanted this to fail in every way imaginable, and we're still out on whether it's moving tickets, but it kinda just looks like it's not a complete trash fire.
Sorry.
Why sorry? I thought the fact that a Hollywood studio can take a successful and popular Japanese franchise, rip everything Japanese out of it that they can get away with and have it become a massive commercial success is exactly the point.
Mulan, last Sunday night.
(Does it count?)
(Yes, I agree with what you're saying, and I can't think of any other big budget movies with Asian leads that I've seen lately)
So the Major was the only thing Japanese about it?
Did... Did you just miss me yelling about Kuze's character being played by Pitt or what?
TOTALLY counts! Ming Na Wen as the acting voice, Lea Salonga as the singing voice! Two for one deal! And with an overwhelmingly Asian voice cast!
It's sort of a shame it was made back in 1998 and you probably can't think of anything since, but hey, there we go.
It's not that simple. We saw the writing on the wall that the movie wasn't going to treat the issues relating around the IP via white washing as tone deaf if not disturbing with the implications (RE: using CGI to make Scarlett look Asian WTF) and that the movie was an Americanized cash grab that completely failed to understand what they were adapting while having spectacular visuals. I think we were correct on that point, but it's still early days so we'll see how it's reception goes.
Its success also has dire implications for future manga/ anime adaptions, too - that having controversial leads can be profitable so they'll double down on that despite past attempts failing (DBZ etc). Death Note will be fine, but what about Akira? That's been a disaster ever since it's been in development hell. At least with GiTS they're trying to stick with their source material, and their alterations still kept the movie in Japan.
I'd have loved to watch a successful GiTS live action movie that's true to the spirit of the franchise, and at least focuses on having a lead which isn't a white lady and understands and utilizes the Japan centric politics inherent in the property - like a live action Stand Alone Complex. Too bad as long as Hollywood has the cash they'll remain in charge of productions like this. It'd have been excellent had the movie behind the scenes been controlled on the Japanese side instead, or at least more like The Great Wall in execution behind and in front of the camera.
And the best director Hollywood could get for this was Rupert Sanders? He upped his game for this film, but c'mon. Hollywood needs to aim a little higher. Did they bother searching for Asian(-American) directors for a movie like this?
So I've been keeping my head down about the New Ghost in the Shell movie. I think I saw the 1995 cartoon and found it a pleasant waste of time. Some of the changes they made for the live action adaption that I have glanced at don't turn my world upside down or anything. It looks like another pleasant waste of time and I'll catch it when it comes out.
However, something caught my eye when I was looking for some Japanese takes on the movie. Turns out, I couldn't find it at first because... catch this....
They changed the name of the movie in Japan...
The actual Japanese name of "Ghost in the Shell" franchise is 「攻殻機動隊」 (Koukaku Kidoutai) or "Mobile Armored Riot Police". When I was searching for the Japanese name of the movie, I was only getting the anime and manga, and nothing on the live action movie. Turns out, the decided to call it this.
「ゴースト・イン・ザ・シェル」
goosuto in za sheru
The series had the English "Ghost in the Shell" subtitle for the first movie and manga, but the work as a whole as NEVER been called that Japan. The live action movie is completely missing the original "Koukaku Kidoutai" name altogether. Unless you know the 1995 movie was titled 「GHOST IN THE SHELL / 攻殻機動隊」 (And could read the English bit) you wouldn't even know it was the same franchise. Compare the wiki entry for the original movie vs the live action version. Choosing to use the "English" name for the movie really distances itself from the Japanese version and really earmarks it as something "foreign". There is nothing wrong with this. Japan has lots of foreign movies in their theaters. But this super-detaches it from the original franchise in a big way. Not only this, when looking down the rabbit hole I have only seen mention of the the original franchise in passing in relation to the new movie. More like "oh this is a live action adaption of the a Koukaku Kidoutai story" without really linking the two.
Just something I found interesting.
I didn't want it to fail. I wanted it to not miss the point. Which, who knows, I'd have to see it before I could make that call. But my takeaway from the GitS movie (which I re-watched a few months ago) is that it's so cerebral and ambiguous, yet still in 2017, far more effective as a social critique of the clash of technology with identity in Japanese culture (where there is, for the most part, a central emphasis on conformity and strict roles) than in American culture (where the focus on individuality has made customization, personality-based technology the standard expectation of tech). And without the presence of that effective critique directed at either culture (and authentic to that culture, which does include involving individuals visibly of that culture!), and more of an emphasis on cool guns and invisible androids, I would feel the adaptation is lacking.
hashtag run on sentences
EDIT: I will add that much can be forgiven if cute tachikomas are involved but so far I have not seen ONE cute tachikoma
NNID: Hakkekage
Japan appropriates the shit out of Kowloon.
Yeah, I think the roller skating spider tanks have been left out of this one, Hakks.
These cute little guys??
That's bullshit this movie is trash throw it out
NNID: Hakkekage
No Fuchikoma either in any promo material that I've seen
Law and Order ≠ Justice
GitS is a nerdy movie, based on anime, which is a nerdy interest. Trying to sell this movie to a general audience without Scarlett would be hard. If it did have an Asian lead, or full of Asian actors, you'd see hardcore anime nerds go see it but most people would hear that it's based off an anime and go "So it's got school girls getting raped by tentacles?"
This movie is trying to cash in on the MCU fanbase, which Marvel has done a hell of a job grabbing non-nerd movie goers to see. Scarlett Johansson is a major face in that series and so it makes sense to cast her. If she had turned it down, this role would have gone to Elizabeth Olsen. If DC was doing great and Marvel was failing, it would have gone to Gal Gadot. It's the same reason Scarlett got the role in Lucy. Chinese movie markets knew that western audiences would't see The Great Wall without someone they recognize in it so they cast Matt Damon to be in it and stand around doing nothing but looking pretty. Major movie companies don't care about race, sex, ect., they care about money. They will cast who they want to draw in people to see films they wouldn't normally see. Then to look like they care about race, sex, ect. they make movies that are aimed straight for Oscars, hand the rewards to them and go "See, we love [insert whatever the public cares about here] people and support them by rewarding films about them."
thpoilerth for the movie
We need to put a famous actor as a lead to draw people in.
We can't put an Asian actor as the lead because none of them are famous enough.
Asian actors aren't famous because they don't get cast as the leads in big movies.
There's not often, like, a big glowing decision point where all the racism is. It's sort of how algorithms can end up becoming racist
As a side note, I recall hearing that the Chinese (and generally all?) audiences display the same preferences towards the Matt Damons and Scarlett Johanssons as everyone else; they also want famous actors.
* note: I think the opening example in this article is less good than the later ones
Huh, this gets a little more obtuse as the 2002 series (which this new movie is also partially based on) has both based on the english wiki, with the kanji at the front being Ghost in the Shell: 攻殻機動隊 STAND ALONE COMPLEX Kōkaku Kidōtai STAND ALONE COMPLEX.
I think after looking at the Japanese wiki entry that they went with the Ghost in the Shell naming same as the movie as well. I guess the parenthetical of Kokaku Kidotai Stand Alone Complex is being added to the wiki but not necessarily the official product, but I don't know enough Japanese to be sure.
Interesting though. agreed!
Again, no one will do that with a movie that is as out there and as risky to make as GitS. They spent $110 million dollars to make this movie (of course Scarlett cost $10 million) and they are hoping to make that much back. Lucy, for example, was made on a budget of $40 million, only made 126.7 million in North America with her as the star ($336.7 million worldwide). Without her name, it would have made a lot less. So while it is mortally wrong to keep Asian actors out, Hollywood and the movie industry won't change because doing so means lost of $$$. And green is the only color Hollywood knows and cares about.
could have gone for a really cool diff aesthetic
So like I said, people have to consciously choose to counteract these decisions. How they would do so obviously depends on their position, but it will almost always require actively pushing back.
This is the kind of self fulfilling prophecy that we get sold as justification for whitewashing. And it's bullshit.
Asian actors don't pull in big money.
Therefore we don't give asian actors big money roles.
Which results in asian actors being unable to pull in big money.
I don't have a job cuz I can't get a car.
I don't have a car cuz I can't get the money.
I don't have the money cuz I can't get a job.
The studio leadership could have written and paid for a good sci-fi franchise for ScarJo to act in, but instead went the easy route by recasting GITS. And they used this artificial controversy as a way to drum up free advertisement.
I don't think that the fact that recasting the Major as another nationality was fitting for the GITS setting was even a consideration in the decision to greenlight this project. If it was, they probably would have cast an actress of a different minority and patted themselves on the back for being so progressive. This is just a cash grab.