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I just don't know how to comment on these changes. On the one hand I think Innervate will be impactful, but I don't know how to evaluate its impact on Jade Druid.
Hex is still good, people run Polymorph.
FWA is a long time coming, but like... why now? There are a lot more important things at stake in the current meta moment, and FWA was the best weapon in Standard but is by no means an oppressive problem right now.
Meteor killed polymorph. It is just as good at single target removal, while also being an AOE. Polymorph is used to make water elementals, and that's it.
I feel like the nerf to warleader, axe, and innervate hit the counters to jade druid more than jade druid. Bleh. This is like the corrupt a wish version of a jade druid nerf.
That said, all the nerfs seem fair. Innervate is ruined but as far as standard is concerned this is the same as moving it to hall of fame.
Id still rather seen either idol or UI nerfed. Also war axe seems the wrong way to touch pirate warrior.
"We have received numerous complaints that the latest changes to innervate will make it unplayable in any druid deck besides Jade.
In order to increase the amount of druid decks the new innervate can find a home in, we have added the Beast tag to it."
Wait, is that a joke or real?
Sorry, I figured it is a joke. But at this point I can't rule anything out anymore. I mean they seriously think going, "Oh look, bundt cake!" will make us all think that they are addressing the outcries towards Jade Druid like they did to Quest Rogue.
Polymorph saw reduced play in Un'Goro; Secret Mage didn't run it, and Control Mage used Meteor or had a game plan that involved freezing the board for five straight turns and hiding behind Ice Blocks for the next three while it assembled lethal damage. It's back in Grinder Mage, mostly because sheep turn into Water Elementals when they die.
Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
I think the reason I find this so unsatisfactory is because the community has been pointing fingers at these cards for years now. Losing basic cards in this fashion, after calls for them to be re-evaluated with the start of year meta shifts so appropriate replacements could be provided went unheard, is just the kind of design decision by Blizzard that I loathe. An acknowledgement of their oversight would have been something of a salve but I just don't like how they work.
The only thing I want to say is what I said last year when they put forward this whole yearly seasons for cards nonsense in, is that I was right about the basic/standard cards portion. Standard/basic cards were supposed to main stays and for lack of a better word "sacred" to some degree. I knew from the start they weren't going to stick to it, and instead of addressing concerns up front when there were obvious issues, they wait -years- to do something about them. Innervate for example was troublesome, but not at fault. Plague and UI helped contribute to Innervate being a problem that -must- be solved. This stuff shouldn't have made it past QA but now it's too late to take back.
My gripe is that absolutely none of the cards are safe and the investment of time, money or dust can be invalidated on a whim. Outside of playing for cross promotion stuff, I don't think I'll have the motivation to make an attempt at Legend now. They can't be bothered to make good judgements on balance, giving some classes RNG cards that are flashy and cause big swings, and some classes (like druid) get cards that consistently powerful every single time. In the current ecosystem either most of the cards need to be RNG, or consistent. Plague might have been less of an issue if it was "Randomly summon 1 through 7 1/5 Scarabs with Taunt" or something like that. Mixing the random powerful against the dependable ones at this point is 2 distinct design philosophies clashing, and it hurts the players more than anyone.
0
PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
I think the reason I find this so unsatisfactory is because the community has been pointing fingers at these cards for years now. Losing basic cards in this fashion, after calls for them to be re-evaluated with the start of year meta shifts so appropriate replacements could be provided went unheard, is just the kind of design decision by Blizzard that I loathe. An acknowledgement of their oversight would have been something of a salve but I just don't like how they work.
The only thing I want to say is what I said last year when they put forward this whole yearly seasons for cards nonsense in, is that I was right about the basic/standard cards portion. Standard/basic cards were supposed to main stays and for lack of a better word "sacred" to some degree. I knew from the start they weren't going to stick to it, and instead of addressing concerns up front when there were obvious issues, they wait -years- to do something about them. Innervate for example was troublesome, but not at fault. Plague and UI helped contribute to Innervate being a problem that -must- be solved. This stuff shouldn't have made it past QA but now it's too late to take back.
My gripe is that absolutely none of the cards are safe and the investment of time, money or dust can be invalidated on a whim. Outside of playing for cross promotion stuff, I don't think I'll have the motivation to make an attempt at Legend now. They can't be bothered to make good judgements on balance, giving some classes RNG cards that are flashy and cause big swings, and some classes (like druid) get cards that consistently powerful every single time. In the current ecosystem either most of the cards need to be RNG, or consistent. Plague might have been less of an issue if it was "Randomly summon 1 through 7 1/5 Scarabs with Taunt" or something like that. Mixing the random powerful against the dependable ones at this point is 2 distinct design philosophies clashing, and it hurts the players more than anyone.
I keep saying they lucked into Hearthstone's success, and in actuality have no idea how to design and develop a card game.
I keep being proved right.
I mean, this is a thing I mostly say to myself every time a new set comes out, except maybe un goro?
I just don't say it out loud because it is kinda a dick thing to say? even if it's true
christ they've had 5 years to get this shit right
this innervate change and the defile design rip-off have really lowered my esteem of them. i do still think it's broadly a well-designed game for the purposes of compulsive / addictive engagement, but there's a lack of care and ingenuity going on that is really inexcusable considering the time and resources they have. their solutions to problems are hamfisted and inconsistent. maybe i'm just too green to have recognised this earlier like the bulk of you guys, having missed the early years
I keep saying they lucked into Hearthstone's success, and in actuality have no idea how to design and develop a card game.
I keep being proved right.
I mean, this is a thing I mostly say to myself every time a new set comes out, except maybe un goro?
I just don't say it out loud because it is kinda a dick thing to say? even if it's true
christ they've had 5 years to get this shit right
Hearthstone was meant to be silly bullshit to kill time. It was a side project that blew up because it was well-polished and easy to learn. They were never prepared for it to become an eSport and thus constantly flail around when shit goes wrong. Blizzard isn't going to change the dev team because it still makes them crushing amounts of money. So the game will just persist in varying states of dysfunctional metas with the occasional Un'goro set they stumble upon.
And Un'goro was a happy mistake: a lot of their designs failed spectacularly. Of the large mechanics, elemental was kinda meh and like two quests were viable (and today maybe one gets played). Not to say mechanics working = good set (after all, DKs seem to be working, but the meta is trash), but it shows you how the dev team continues to struggle understand what makes cards playable. See also Gadgetzan and one-third of the mechanics being trash.
0
PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
I keep saying they lucked into Hearthstone's success, and in actuality have no idea how to design and develop a card game.
I keep being proved right.
I mean, this is a thing I mostly say to myself every time a new set comes out, except maybe un goro?
I just don't say it out loud because it is kinda a dick thing to say? even if it's true
christ they've had 5 years to get this shit right
Hearthstone was meant to be silly bullshit to kill time. It was a side project that blew up because it was well-polished and easy to learn. They were never prepared for it to become an eSport and thus constantly flail around when shit goes wrong. Blizzard isn't going to change the dev team because it still makes them crushing amounts of money. So the game will just persist in varying states of dysfunctional metas with the occasional Un'goro set they stumble upon.
And Un'goro was a happy mistake: a lot of their designs failed spectacularly. Of the large mechanics, elemental was kinda meh and like two quests were viable (and today maybe one gets played). Not to say mechanics working = good set (after all, DKs seem to be working, but the meta is trash), but it shows you how the dev team continues to struggle understand what makes cards playable. See also Gadgetzan and one-third of the mechanics being trash.
see the problem is that from essentially the beginning, they pushed it as an e-sport, despite the fact they have no fucking clue how to actually support the competitive scene
I think you guys are DEFFO underestimating the Innervate nerf.
Sure, the Spreading Plague nerf is meh, not nerfing UI sucks.
But Innervate is straight up dead now, I think. I don't think that gets run anymore.
Not being able to cheat out big fatties or UI now is huge. There is a massive ripple effect that gets created from the Innervate nerf. Aggro Druid can no longer have explosive early game turns. No more T1 Flappy Bird. No more T1 3-4 minions on board.
I still would have liked to have seen UI get nerfed though.
Errr, who's underestimating it? It seems like most people are saying it's a junk card now and jade might be the only druid that survives this patch.
In regards to Druid as a Class being nerfed not the card itself.
People were/are saying "well these nerfs don't matter, Druid is still shitking of fuckmountain"
But the Innervate nerf alone will have a marked impact on the entire class.
Power creep has been insane too. Just what is an acceptable 1,2, and 3 cost minion at game launch to now is wildly different. Like yeti was playable at one point. Now they just keep printing things that are just straight up better.
Except for a couple classes where they dont know what they are doing, see warlocks and demons. There are about 2 of them without insane drawbacks, while other classes get comparable value without smashing yourself for 5 or discarding your hand.
Hunter is in a similar boat with the beast crap, even though there are only a couple playable ones.
Shaman's whole shtick is basically to evolve shit into other class' cards.
I will say again that any card game that prints cards solely because a draft format exists is going to inevitably be terrible. Because they always get too cute with some class/colors and now half the options are unplayable in standard.
Power creep and half the cards being useless is a feature for a CCG. You need your players to chase after the good cards and you need the shit cards to make it harder to get the good ones. $$$
Power creep has been insane too. Just what is an acceptable 1,2, and 3 cost minion at game launch to now is wildly different. Like yeti was playable at one point. Now they just keep printing things that are just straight up better.
Except for a couple classes where they dont know what they are doing, see warlocks and demons. There are about 2 of them without insane drawbacks, while other classes get comparable value without smashing yourself for 5 or discarding your hand.
Hunter is in a similar boat with the beast crap, even though there are only a couple playable ones.
Shaman's whole shtick is basically to evolve shit into other class' cards.
I will say again that any card game that prints cards solely because a draft format exists is going to inevitably be terrible. Because they always get too cute with some class/colors and now half the options are unplayable in standard.
magic and eternal both do this and they are easily the most well designed ccgs on the market
Power creep has been insane too. Just what is an acceptable 1,2, and 3 cost minion at game launch to now is wildly different. Like yeti was playable at one point. Now they just keep printing things that are just straight up better.
Except for a couple classes where they dont know what they are doing, see warlocks and demons. There are about 2 of them without insane drawbacks, while other classes get comparable value without smashing yourself for 5 or discarding your hand.
Hunter is in a similar boat with the beast crap, even though there are only a couple playable ones.
Shaman's whole shtick is basically to evolve shit into other class' cards.
I will say again that any card game that prints cards solely because a draft format exists is going to inevitably be terrible. Because they always get too cute with some class/colors and now half the options are unplayable in standard.
magic and eternal both do this and they are easily the most well designed ccgs on the market
largely because they rotate everything, even their cores.
er, should specify magic. Never actually played eternal, though I'm suddenly intrigued.
Power creep has been insane too. Just what is an acceptable 1,2, and 3 cost minion at game launch to now is wildly different. Like yeti was playable at one point. Now they just keep printing things that are just straight up better.
Except for a couple classes where they dont know what they are doing, see warlocks and demons. There are about 2 of them without insane drawbacks, while other classes get comparable value without smashing yourself for 5 or discarding your hand.
Hunter is in a similar boat with the beast crap, even though there are only a couple playable ones.
Shaman's whole shtick is basically to evolve shit into other class' cards.
I will say again that any card game that prints cards solely because a draft format exists is going to inevitably be terrible. Because they always get too cute with some class/colors and now half the options are unplayable in standard.
magic and eternal both do this and they are easily the most well designed ccgs on the market
largely because they rotate everything, even their cores.
er, should specify magic. Never actually played eternal, though I'm suddenly intrigued.
inagtp loves it
it's quite good, and different enough to magic that it's definitely it's own identity nowadays
Power creep and half the cards being useless is a feature for a CCG. You need your players to chase after the good cards and you need the shit cards to make it harder to get the good ones. $$$
Like bobykins said, magic prints way more cards per set. When it comes down to like 8 cards per class per set, if 4 of them are designed to be crap for arena it leaves 4 slots for standard cards. Those kinds of numbers lead to classes being terrible if those 4 cards arent amazing or archetype defining. That leads to some classes leaninh much more on their basic cards to function, and as discussed a bunch before( especially druids) not all basic classes are created equal.
am I dumb for thinking this isn't even that big a nerf to jade druid? It'll be a little bit more vulnerable to aggro but most of the threatening aggro concepts got nerfed too, and the jade+infinite cards issue will still be pretty prominent
hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
+2
PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
am I dumb for thinking this isn't even that big a nerf to jade druid? It'll be a little bit more vulnerable to aggro but most of the threatening aggro concepts got nerfed too, and the jade+infinite cards issue will still be pretty prominent
it makes it more difficult for jade to ramp/draw a billion fucking cards why is nourish still a card what the fuck
I think the reason I find this so unsatisfactory is because the community has been pointing fingers at these cards for years now. Losing basic cards in this fashion, after calls for them to be re-evaluated with the start of year meta shifts so appropriate replacements could be provided went unheard, is just the kind of design decision by Blizzard that I loathe. An acknowledgement of their oversight would have been something of a salve but I just don't like how they work.
The only thing I want to say is what I said last year when they put forward this whole yearly seasons for cards nonsense in, is that I was right about the basic/standard cards portion. Standard/basic cards were supposed to main stays and for lack of a better word "sacred" to some degree. I knew from the start they weren't going to stick to it, and instead of addressing concerns up front when there were obvious issues, they wait -years- to do something about them. Innervate for example was troublesome, but not at fault. Plague and UI helped contribute to Innervate being a problem that -must- be solved. This stuff shouldn't have made it past QA but now it's too late to take back.
My gripe is that absolutely none of the cards are safe and the investment of time, money or dust can be invalidated on a whim. Outside of playing for cross promotion stuff, I don't think I'll have the motivation to make an attempt at Legend now. They can't be bothered to make good judgements on balance, giving some classes RNG cards that are flashy and cause big swings, and some classes (like druid) get cards that consistently powerful every single time. In the current ecosystem either most of the cards need to be RNG, or consistent. Plague might have been less of an issue if it was "Randomly summon 1 through 7 1/5 Scarabs with Taunt" or something like that. Mixing the random powerful against the dependable ones at this point is 2 distinct design philosophies clashing, and it hurts the players more than anyone.
cards that are nerfed give full dust value
Basic cards that are nerfed and need to be replaced in your deck by new rares, epics, etc. indirectly cost dust.
0
AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
For players who like constant change, Standard is meant to be a format that changes dramatically when new sets are released. We've been very open that the evergreen sets pose a great challenge to that dream - if you're playing against the same cards year after year for many years, it is more difficult to create an always-changing format. Our Hall of Fame solution helped us to make small changes each year to push us a little closer to a format more defined by the things that change.
Right now many of the top decks still run a huge percentage of basic and classic cards. We think that percentage is a little too high right now, and that ends up making new sets and rotations less fun than they could be.
Our goal isn't to cripple archetypes. Control Warrior needs control cards, yes, but is it fun to play the same cards every year? Wild is an option for players who want a format with less change, but Standard should be all about change. We'd rather create new and different cards that present new challenges and new options to Control Warrior players.
They only share 9 cards, and yet, it feels like the same Archetype. If we love an archetype, we can continue to support it with new cards. Having archetypes come in and out (and in again) with different metas can also help keep Standard fresh.
(TL, DR: Yes, you are supposed to buy packs of the new set if you want to play Standard since $$$ and we want the game to not feel stale and we will nerf cards until you do. Deal with it.)
Here's the other post linked:
I just want to make it clear that those are meant to cover some of the thinking behind why we went with option A over option B - not why we decided to make a change to begin with.
In a world where we are looking at making a change, we felt like these changes are slightly less disruptive and that is upside, in a vacuum.
It's not a vacuum, obviously, but the goal here was to reduce power level because the ratio of basic/classic cards in Standard decks is still too high (they represent the biggest percentage of played cards, still).
Commonly, when we mention that we think about a wide variety of players, it can come off like we are focusing on new players at the expense of currently engaged players. That isn't the way we think about it. Usually we look for win-win solutions, where a change is good for the ongoing fun of playing Hearthstone and is also not disruptive to loosely engaged players. We've definitely made changes that are quite disruptive because it's very important to keep Hearthstone fun for engaged players. Just because we prefer non-disruptive changes doesn't mean we are trying to do that at the expense of other types of players.
Specifically, we made these changes for engaged players who are most affected by imbalance (deck diversity goes down the higher rank you are), and who are most likely to want to see the meta change when new sets come out or during the yearly set rotation.
It's infuriating that they keep saying "We want Wild to be a format with less change" but keep making it impossible to play certain decks in wild because of the changes
Posts
1.Pirate warrior
2. Aggro druid
3. Murloc pally
4. Jade druid.
Evolve shammy is the only aggro deck not hit by this set of nerfs, and jade druid was slowed down by about half a turn or so.
Jade won't be able to UI + innervate + hero power/wrath to kill 8/8s anymore. We shall see how big a deal that is.
People rarely run Polymorph.
3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
Steam profile
That said, all the nerfs seem fair. Innervate is ruined but as far as standard is concerned this is the same as moving it to hall of fame.
Id still rather seen either idol or UI nerfed. Also war axe seems the wrong way to touch pirate warrior.
Wait, is that a joke or real?
Sorry, I figured it is a joke. But at this point I can't rule anything out anymore. I mean they seriously think going, "Oh look, bundt cake!" will make us all think that they are addressing the outcries towards Jade Druid like they did to Quest Rogue.
Steam: betsuni7
Yeah, it's pretty great off Primordial Glyph and such.
3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
Steam profile
The only thing I want to say is what I said last year when they put forward this whole yearly seasons for cards nonsense in, is that I was right about the basic/standard cards portion. Standard/basic cards were supposed to main stays and for lack of a better word "sacred" to some degree. I knew from the start they weren't going to stick to it, and instead of addressing concerns up front when there were obvious issues, they wait -years- to do something about them. Innervate for example was troublesome, but not at fault. Plague and UI helped contribute to Innervate being a problem that -must- be solved. This stuff shouldn't have made it past QA but now it's too late to take back.
My gripe is that absolutely none of the cards are safe and the investment of time, money or dust can be invalidated on a whim. Outside of playing for cross promotion stuff, I don't think I'll have the motivation to make an attempt at Legend now. They can't be bothered to make good judgements on balance, giving some classes RNG cards that are flashy and cause big swings, and some classes (like druid) get cards that consistently powerful every single time. In the current ecosystem either most of the cards need to be RNG, or consistent. Plague might have been less of an issue if it was "Randomly summon 1 through 7 1/5 Scarabs with Taunt" or something like that. Mixing the random powerful against the dependable ones at this point is 2 distinct design philosophies clashing, and it hurts the players more than anyone.
I mean, this is a thing I mostly say to myself every time a new set comes out, except maybe un goro?
I just don't say it out loud because it is kinda a dick thing to say? even if it's true
christ they've had 5 years to get this shit right
cards that are nerfed give full dust value
this innervate change and the defile design rip-off have really lowered my esteem of them. i do still think it's broadly a well-designed game for the purposes of compulsive / addictive engagement, but there's a lack of care and ingenuity going on that is really inexcusable considering the time and resources they have. their solutions to problems are hamfisted and inconsistent. maybe i'm just too green to have recognised this earlier like the bulk of you guys, having missed the early years
And Un'goro was a happy mistake: a lot of their designs failed spectacularly. Of the large mechanics, elemental was kinda meh and like two quests were viable (and today maybe one gets played). Not to say mechanics working = good set (after all, DKs seem to be working, but the meta is trash), but it shows you how the dev team continues to struggle understand what makes cards playable. See also Gadgetzan and one-third of the mechanics being trash.
see the problem is that from essentially the beginning, they pushed it as an e-sport, despite the fact they have no fucking clue how to actually support the competitive scene
In regards to Druid as a Class being nerfed not the card itself.
People were/are saying "well these nerfs don't matter, Druid is still shitking of fuckmountain"
But the Innervate nerf alone will have a marked impact on the entire class.
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
Except for a couple classes where they dont know what they are doing, see warlocks and demons. There are about 2 of them without insane drawbacks, while other classes get comparable value without smashing yourself for 5 or discarding your hand.
Hunter is in a similar boat with the beast crap, even though there are only a couple playable ones.
Shaman's whole shtick is basically to evolve shit into other class' cards.
I will say again that any card game that prints cards solely because a draft format exists is going to inevitably be terrible. Because they always get too cute with some class/colors and now half the options are unplayable in standard.
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198004484595
probably yes
magic and eternal both do this and they are easily the most well designed ccgs on the market
largely because they rotate everything, even their cores.
er, should specify magic. Never actually played eternal, though I'm suddenly intrigued.
Highlander Priest and Dudes Paladin will be undisputed gods.
Naga Giants already completely fucked Wild balance.
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
inagtp loves it
it's quite good, and different enough to magic that it's definitely it's own identity nowadays
Like bobykins said, magic prints way more cards per set. When it comes down to like 8 cards per class per set, if 4 of them are designed to be crap for arena it leaves 4 slots for standard cards. Those kinds of numbers lead to classes being terrible if those 4 cards arent amazing or archetype defining. That leads to some classes leaninh much more on their basic cards to function, and as discussed a bunch before( especially druids) not all basic classes are created equal.
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198004484595
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
it makes it more difficult for jade to ramp/draw a billion fucking cards why is nourish still a card what the fuck
It's now the coin. That's amazing.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
I like your line of thinking. We can call it the Loonie! It's worth 1 mana!
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
This post after @DasUberEdward and his avatars is perfect.
Steam: betsuni7
It was linked earlier, but the Reddit thread got Ben Brode himself to answer: (TL, DR: Yes, you are supposed to buy packs of the new set if you want to play Standard since $$$ and we want the game to not feel stale and we will nerf cards until you do. Deal with it.)
Here's the other post linked:
RIP Molten Giant