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The Mysterious Case of Juan "Hungrybox" Debiedma [chat]
A Kobold's Kobold
He/HimMississippiRegistered User regular
He/HimMississippiRegistered User regular
I messaged shryke and he said it was okay so I'm posting [chat] now.
Okay, so the best player in all of 2001's Super Smash Brothers Melee for the Nintendo Game Cube is [A]rmada. I think that's almost without contention, though events that have occurred tonight might start to overturn that for the moment.
Because tonight was The Big House 7, a part of the legendary Big House* yearly tournament series, which is one of the cornerstones of the Super Smash Brothers tournament scene. And Hungrybox won from losers, which is not surprising. He also played a gauntlet of foxes to get there, which is also not surprising. Hbox plays Jigglypuff, and Jigg's worst matchup is, bar none, Fox.
What's interesting is that Hbox played Plup, who was fresh off of defeating Armada and thus becoming the second godslayer. Plup is nowadays known mostly for his Sheik play, although Plup's a bit of a character generalist, having a Samus**, Luigi, Falco, and Fox under his belt. Sheik has a tough time with Puff because of the fact that Puff's so mobile in the air AND how long some of Puff's aerials are AND how badly Sheik deals with crouching*** characters, which Jiggs can expoit pretty well. So, naturally, Plup chose Fox.
And got destroyed for it, going 3-1'd twice and finishing off grand finals set one with a game where he took zero stocks in a game where you are expected to take four. Plup, despite defeating Armada handily that very same day, was completely outclassed.
So what? Setting aside that Melee is ~a decade-old children's party game~, I think there's people who are going to be going Fox against Hbox and getting bodied until the end of goddamn time — there are dedicated Fox mains, after all. See: Leffen, who was the person to knock Hbox into loser's in the first place.
The established reason for why Hbox can beat all these foxes even when he's at a severe disadvantage is that he just knows the matchup that well. He's played hundreds, if not thousands, of Foxes. Of all stipes, of all playstyles, of all qualities. And he's beaten them all. He might not always win against them all the time — see his sets with Mango — but nobody knows Fox's strengths and weaknesses better than Hbox. And there's no analogue for Hbox within the meta — there's several top Foxes, but there's only one top Puff. Guys like Prince Abu don't compare. There's this profound gap in matchup knowledge; how many Foxes did Hbox face in order to get to you, hypothetical top player? A lot. And how many top Puffs did you have to face in order for you to face him? Probably none.
But I also sense there's this profound… hubris in switching to Fox against Hbox. Especially tonight. Because Hbox eliminated Armada at fourth. And Armada always goes Fox against Hbox. And even though Armada's been playing a lot more Peach lately, it's not an uncontroversial opinion to say that Armada's the best Fox in the world. If Armada couldn't do it, and Leffen couldn't do it — even when he did do it in the very same tournament, then what makes this hypothetical top player think that they could have a better shot at defeating Hbox by switching to the character that he has the most experience with, by far? Why, mortal, do you think you can challenge a god with the same tools that failed to bring him down thousands of times before?
tldr: tier lists are useless and you can play any mid tier and still make bank as long as you know the match-ups well enough
Okay, so the best player in all of 2001's Super Smash Brothers Melee for the Nintendo Game Cube is [A]rmada. I think that's almost without contention, though events that have occurred tonight might start to overturn that for the moment.
Because tonight was The Big House 7, a part of the legendary Big House* yearly tournament series, which is one of the cornerstones of the Super Smash Brothers tournament scene. And Hungrybox won from losers, which is not surprising. He also played a gauntlet of foxes to get there, which is also not surprising. Hbox plays Jigglypuff, and Jigg's worst matchup is, bar none, Fox.
What's interesting is that Hbox played Plup, who was fresh off of defeating Armada and thus becoming the second godslayer. Plup is nowadays known mostly for his Sheik play, although Plup's a bit of a character generalist, having a Samus**, Luigi, Falco, and Fox under his belt. Sheik has a tough time with Puff because of the fact that Puff's so mobile in the air AND how long some of Puff's aerials are AND how badly Sheik deals with crouching*** characters, which Jiggs can expoit pretty well. So, naturally, Plup chose Fox.
And got destroyed for it, going 3-1'd twice and finishing off grand finals set one with a game where he took zero stocks in a game where you are expected to take four. Plup, despite defeating Armada handily that very same day, was completely outclassed.
So what? Setting aside that Melee is ~a decade-old children's party game~, I think there's people who are going to be going Fox against Hbox and getting bodied until the end of goddamn time — there are dedicated Fox mains, after all. See: Leffen, who was the person to knock Hbox into loser's in the first place.
The established reason for why Hbox can beat all these foxes even when he's at a severe disadvantage is that he just knows the matchup that well. He's played hundreds, if not thousands, of Foxes. Of all stipes, of all playstyles, of all qualities. And he's beaten them all. He might not always win against them all the time — see his sets with Mango — but nobody knows Fox's strengths and weaknesses better than Hbox. And there's no analogue for Hbox within the meta — there's several top Foxes, but there's only one top Puff. Guys like Prince Abu don't compare. There's this profound gap in matchup knowledge; how many Foxes did Hbox face in order to get to you, hypothetical top player? A lot. And how many top Puffs did you have to face in order for you to face him? Probably none.
But I also sense there's this profound… hubris in switching to Fox against Hbox. Especially tonight. Because Hbox eliminated Armada at fourth. And Armada always goes Fox against Hbox. And even though Armada's been playing a lot more Peach lately, it's not an uncontroversial opinion to say that Armada's the best Fox in the world. If Armada couldn't do it, and Leffen couldn't do it — even when he did do it in the very same tournament, then what makes this hypothetical top player think that they could have a better shot at defeating Hbox by switching to the character that he has the most experience with, by far? Why, mortal, do you think you can challenge a god with the same tools that failed to bring him down thousands of times before?
tldr: tier lists are useless and you can play any mid tier and still make bank as long as you know the match-ups well enough
*yes the big house was originally played at the university of michigan why do you ask
**Plup was originally known as a Samus main and is still widely considered to be the best Samus player even though he doesn't play her much any more.
***Or, well, crouch cancelling characters. Characters up until a certain percent in Melee can cancel a certain amount of knockback by just crouching.
Also this entire thread is a massive oversimplification, don't at me
**Plup was originally known as a Samus main and is still widely considered to be the best Samus player even though he doesn't play her much any more.
***Or, well, crouch cancelling characters. Characters up until a certain percent in Melee can cancel a certain amount of knockback by just crouching.
Also this entire thread is a massive oversimplification, don't at me
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The dude is clearly at least second best in the world and everyone just wants the underdog story. All those mango fans riding the old hbox hate.
I think it's rather sweet.
I don't rank with torbs.
Scrubs chase the meta. Pros define it.
I don't think they were Mango fans as much as they were Plup fans, however fairweather they are. Though (I assume) you know more about the scene than I do, do you think that all those people spamming plupW in the Twitch chat are Mango fans?
Also he just battled through a sea of foxes only to be the Big Bad in the tragic tale of Plup's Big House story. This is totally understandable.
i thought "eh i can roll this it is slower than the ones that hurt"
You aren't doing anything particular task at maximum efficiency, so before you are... how do you know it's the best or suboptimal? How do you KNOW.
Anyone who isn't critical of themselves or the process won't improve and can be disregarded no matter their talent level.
Applies to business or games or actually personal relationships too because it is an inflexible and grating personality trait.
its official
everything is gay™ now
Sounds like someone needs a shitload of kidneys fast.
I did it at 40ish miles. It hurt but not too bad.
rolling is the key
when you hear the rush of wind
and just say "eh. . .fuck it"
http://i.imgur.com/HK4BEgD.gif
Why?
Dark souls taught me that
then you're hitting asphalt
Plup and Hbox are both from Florida. Plup is his dude. It's hard to bat down Plup's dreams, the residual and perpetual 5th place winner.
That said, the vast majority of people who go to melee events are mango fans. And mango fans hate hbox. Melee viewers tend to only be interested in how super ballsy players are in their offense. People try to talk about how Plup is the best Sheik in the world because he's very aggressive and utilizes a lot of Sheik's speed. M2K, another player in the Top 4, pretty consistently beats Plup with his Sheik but people regard M2K as being campy or lame, etc.
They want high octane ballsy melee because they think it pumps up viewership. I don't doubt there are a ton of Plup fans, as Plup is a great guy and has a very wide roster, making it easy to root for him if you enjoy any of his edge character plays (going into majors as Luigi or Samus, etc.)
but the blind hatred of hbox stems way back to Mango and Hbox having beef in the way way back. Also I don't know if I know more about the scene. I'm just a humble melee fan.
i'm lonely.
it's real weird how the worst part is the jump