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Update (11-21-17): Not sure what to do about my roommate anymore
Drez
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I have two roommates. I’m going to call them Jim and Dingle for the purposes of this post. Jim and I are fine - he’s been a model roommate. Dingle and I have been on bad terms since April this year. We had a blowup in February and another one in April. We had been roommates since August 2016.
Dingle and I are basically not on speaking terms, other than those rare moments where we need to discuss house business. I’m pretty easygoing so I am not really stressed out by the situation, but it is awkward at times. We’re at the point where if we see each other in the kitchen we will grunt a hello at each other, and that’s about it.
Jim and I are listed as tenants on the lease. Dingle is listed as an occupant. He failed his credit check, so he could not be a tenant on the lease. It’s a two year lease that started in November 2016, so we’re coming up on the end of our first year. We have a whole year to go. We had been living in the same apartment for a few months prior to our lease signing which is a complicated and irrelevant story for this post, but the main points are: I did not know him before August 2016 and we were totally fine until February 2017.
For some reason, I get all emails from the building management. Not even Jim gets the emails, despite him being listed as a tenant. Probably something I should look into, but for now, everything comes only to me. I do my best to communicate things to both Jim and Dingle. This includes information about upcoming building inspections and other news. Dingle never responds. I’m not sure if he even reads my emails. I’ve mentioned them to him in passing, during our infrequent kitchen meetings, so he is aware of them. But he only rarely responds.
The utilities and cable bill are in my name. I pay every month and we had established months ago that Jim and Dingle would pay me at the end of each month, despite the actual bill due dates. Both Jim and Dingle actually suggested this timing, and have actioned on it consistently until now.
Jim, as always, has paid me on time. Dingle is now late. I’m going to say “by one day” because we never clearly established whether I would be reimbursed on the last day of the month or the first of the month. Either way, Dingle has not reimbursed me yet.
I sent bills on 10/23 confirming the monthly payment has not changed. I sent a reminder yesterday - 11/1. He has never been late with a payment before but it was getting to 8PM and hadn’t paid me yet. I actually bumped into him in the kitchen at that time and asked him if he was going to send me the money; he said “yep” and walked back to his room.
He never paid me. I managed to bump into him in the kitchen again at a little before midnight, and he didn’t even acknowledge me.
Now, it’s only one day late. But the relationship is already awkward and while I can carry his payment for a couple of days if needed, he essentially lied to me. And has failed to action on our agreement for the first time, with absolutely no communication about it. I am not comfortable with this, but I don’t want to blow anything up.
Jim, Dingle, and I also divvy up our rent payments so we pay the building management company the respective amounts we owe directly - no roommate reimbursements necessary. On a hunch, I logged into our rent payment system this morning. I cannot see the current status of our payments for this month since it takes a few days for our payments to reflect in the system, but I did see a $50 balance carried over from the previous month.
I couldn’t get any more details on the site, but I stopped by the management office on the way to work and they indicated what I expected: the $50 was a late fee. Dingle paid his September rent twelve days late, never told us, and never reconciled the late fee. It’s possible he was not aware of the late fee, but even so, that is very alarming.
I should note that last month, Dingle paid both his rent portion and utilities in full and on time. The late rent payment was two months ago.
Anyway, not sure what I should do. I don’t want to exacerbate anything here, even though I do not like him and under other circumstances I wouldn’t really blink about 1 late day, but I also don’t want him to feel that lying to me and having me carry his expenses is acceptable. So I’m caught between setting boundaries and not wanting to overreact.
Jim is going to pretend he noticed the late fee and mention it to Dingle. But as to the rest: Any opinions or advice? Thanks.
Dingle and I are basically not on speaking terms, other than those rare moments where we need to discuss house business. I’m pretty easygoing so I am not really stressed out by the situation, but it is awkward at times. We’re at the point where if we see each other in the kitchen we will grunt a hello at each other, and that’s about it.
Jim and I are listed as tenants on the lease. Dingle is listed as an occupant. He failed his credit check, so he could not be a tenant on the lease. It’s a two year lease that started in November 2016, so we’re coming up on the end of our first year. We have a whole year to go. We had been living in the same apartment for a few months prior to our lease signing which is a complicated and irrelevant story for this post, but the main points are: I did not know him before August 2016 and we were totally fine until February 2017.
For some reason, I get all emails from the building management. Not even Jim gets the emails, despite him being listed as a tenant. Probably something I should look into, but for now, everything comes only to me. I do my best to communicate things to both Jim and Dingle. This includes information about upcoming building inspections and other news. Dingle never responds. I’m not sure if he even reads my emails. I’ve mentioned them to him in passing, during our infrequent kitchen meetings, so he is aware of them. But he only rarely responds.
The utilities and cable bill are in my name. I pay every month and we had established months ago that Jim and Dingle would pay me at the end of each month, despite the actual bill due dates. Both Jim and Dingle actually suggested this timing, and have actioned on it consistently until now.
Jim, as always, has paid me on time. Dingle is now late. I’m going to say “by one day” because we never clearly established whether I would be reimbursed on the last day of the month or the first of the month. Either way, Dingle has not reimbursed me yet.
I sent bills on 10/23 confirming the monthly payment has not changed. I sent a reminder yesterday - 11/1. He has never been late with a payment before but it was getting to 8PM and hadn’t paid me yet. I actually bumped into him in the kitchen at that time and asked him if he was going to send me the money; he said “yep” and walked back to his room.
He never paid me. I managed to bump into him in the kitchen again at a little before midnight, and he didn’t even acknowledge me.
Now, it’s only one day late. But the relationship is already awkward and while I can carry his payment for a couple of days if needed, he essentially lied to me. And has failed to action on our agreement for the first time, with absolutely no communication about it. I am not comfortable with this, but I don’t want to blow anything up.
Jim, Dingle, and I also divvy up our rent payments so we pay the building management company the respective amounts we owe directly - no roommate reimbursements necessary. On a hunch, I logged into our rent payment system this morning. I cannot see the current status of our payments for this month since it takes a few days for our payments to reflect in the system, but I did see a $50 balance carried over from the previous month.
I couldn’t get any more details on the site, but I stopped by the management office on the way to work and they indicated what I expected: the $50 was a late fee. Dingle paid his September rent twelve days late, never told us, and never reconciled the late fee. It’s possible he was not aware of the late fee, but even so, that is very alarming.
I should note that last month, Dingle paid both his rent portion and utilities in full and on time. The late rent payment was two months ago.
Anyway, not sure what I should do. I don’t want to exacerbate anything here, even though I do not like him and under other circumstances I wouldn’t really blink about 1 late day, but I also don’t want him to feel that lying to me and having me carry his expenses is acceptable. So I’m caught between setting boundaries and not wanting to overreact.
Jim is going to pretend he noticed the late fee and mention it to Dingle. But as to the rest: Any opinions or advice? Thanks.
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*Should it ever come to this again, where you've already asked after the late payment and Dingle has shut down on you.
Not that you should rely on Jim up front.
Two good points. Jim has kind of unofficially offered to do this for me (he is not on bad terms with Dingle, but he does agree with me that Dingle’s behaviors are not good).
But I also don’t want to impinge or rely on him too much, either.
1. You don't like living with Dingle.
2. Dingle is recently not living up to financial expectations - including lying about it.
So, as far as the first problem is concerned I'd talk to Jim about jettisoning Dingle because you aren't happy. Of course, if Jim doesn't go for this, you may end up looking for a new place to live.
For the second, I'd tell Dingle that he can't be late with his payments in the future without at least giving you some notice. Tell him what you expect and if it doesn't meet those expectations again then you'll start looking to replace him (assuming you've talked to Jim first).
Honestly, unless Jim wants to get involved you may have to just move on things yourself.
Actually...I already have Jim's support if I decide I want to evict Dingle. But even though I frankly do not like him, I don't really want to disrupt someone's life unless it's necessary.
But you are essentially right and it's something to continue thinking about.
I would seriously consider either you and/or Jim sitting down with "Dingle" here and telling him in no uncertain terms that he cannot be late with payments, that if he is he is solely responsible for the late fee, and if this happens again you might have to find somebody to replace him on the lease. My main concern here is if Dingle stops paying at some point or runs up a late-fee tab, you and Jim might be forced into a bad financial place and required to pay Dingle's share.
It will be awkward, it will suck, but it's already awkward and sucky and you guys don't like each other, so just put on your big kid pants and make it clear that he needs to fix or you'll fix it.
Yes, 100% this.
You're worried about making the situation more awkward, but here's the thing: He already made it awkward by being late and lying about it.
I also agree on making sure you have everything in writing and signed by all parties. That'll become important if he leaves you in the lurch at some point - you can take him to small claims court and get it back (you don't need a lawyer for that, and you can ask for reimbursement of the filing fees as part of your case. A signed contract will be like gold to you if it comes to that.)
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
Edit:
With that in mind you should be prepared to have him evicted and replaced with a third roommate (one that can actually be a tenant) should something like this happen again.
Not anymore - I'm 3 seconds away, in Jersey City.
That's incredibly adult of you and is to be commended. Not a lot of people would take the mature road on this.
e: The other thing I would add, since you're near the end of the first year, you may want to make clear to Dingle that he's not welcome to stay past the end of your contractual period there, even if you and Jim decided to sign a new lease. Give the dude a year'ish to be looking for a new place.
Thanks. And that’s a good point, too.
If you tell him now you won't be renewing the lease he might even get out sooner than a year from now but things will be a bit frosty.
I don’t want to air all that out and it’s not relevant to this thread, but yes, he has done numerous unpleasant, outright hostile things. Since we stopped interacting, those behaviors have been replaced by a stagnant, awkward climate of barely acknowledging the existence of each other. And I only brought that up in this thread because that climate is what makes me uncomfortable in situations where I may need to directly communicate with him about situations like this.
I totally admit that I am uniquely biased here because I have a general distrust of the guy. If Jim was late a day or two I would immediately assume he forgot. I assume the worst in Dingle because it tracks which his general character.
I think half a month late on rent is a pretty big deal. Particularly when it's the other two that would be on the hook.
If you are unhappy, he’s unhappy as well. It sounds like you are at a point where the discussion about dissolving the situation is necessary and figuring out a timleline that lets him find a place and you start looking for a new roommate.
The sketchiness is a sign. There’s a good chamce that he’s already thinking about next steps, and you are at risk of it all suddenly falling apart. It might be better for everyone to just make a plan to end things instead of coming home one day when the bills are due to find his stuff vanished while you were gone.
Is there any possibility you both can sit down and talk about practical matters? It sounds like for that to happen you're going to have to be the bigger guy here and let go of whatever irritation you have towards him in order to even have that conversation. If you are able to talk to him and he's not being a dick or aloof, then you can ask him if he's having problems paying his bills (meeting his financial obligations). You aren't conceding anything there, just gathering information. And at that point you have a bit more info, maybe commiserate a bit if he's got some issues going on, and then you can suggest to him that he should be paying the late fee (cause it was levied due to his late payment) and he needs to be on time for any remuneration to you or Jim or he will need to find another living situation.
If he's lost income stream or has had some unexpected expenses then he will probably be defensive. But if he's just being lazy and insensitive he will also probably be defensive.
The situation has gotten tense, and if you want to resolve this somewhat amicably, then one of you needs to be the nice person, and it sounds like you will need to be that nice person.
I think you've gotten plenty of good advice on how to handle this in a more adversarial way.
I got my paper bill in the mail today. It had a whopping outstanding charge. And it doesn't really explain what from, but I had a feeling...
I was working from home today and Dingle was on paid time off, so he was home today too. (Or so he claims. He was blah blah blahing me about something at work, and him being on vacation, but now I'm calling into question whether or not he is even employed anymore.) Anyway, I open the bill, see the issue, try knocking on his bedroom door (he was clearly in there) but he did not come out. Fine, I thought I heard his shower going, so maybe he wasn't dressed or whatever.
So I decided to go down to the management office and get to the bottom of it. They close at 5 on Fridays, so I didn't want to wait for Dingle and risk missing the management office hours.
Holy shit I just realized this isn't Friday. Holidays fuck with my head. Well, anyway, moving on...
I leave the bill open on top of the table in the common area (on purpose) and go down to the management office. Dingle had incurred $100 in fees - a $50 returned check fee and a $50 late fee. He then repaid the rent and it posted on the 20th, after the paper bill had been printed.
They printed the ledger out for me and I asked them what the impact was if this kept happening. They said that it could impact the lease holder's changes of renting in the future. That's me and Jim and probably NOT Dingle, since he is only an occupant.
I am livid.
I texted Jim and asked him if we could talk after work. Obviously, this is sensitive and needs to be approached as such, but I find this behavior unacceptable, especially if it's going to impact my reputation or credit in any way.
I will say that, for the first time, I *also* incurred a returned check fee this month because I dumped money into the wrong account (I have two checking accounts) before the autopay went through. So that's on me. I did not incur a late fee, though, because I resolved the issue and resubmitted payment within their grace period.
Anyway, this is a terrible time for this shit as I cannot afford to sustain Dingle right now. Or deal with this stuff.
I also told him that our cable bill yesterday, in passing, was going up by $20 (roughly +$6.66 per person, which he basically knew about months ago) and he started telling me I should call them and threaten to cancel service to try and get the increase waived. Fucking chutzpah considering all this other shit, I'll give him that. I'm not going to bother.
He also wants us to get a monthly cleaning service, which I am not really in favor of because we are three grown men and can pick up after ourselves, but what the fuck? He's arguing to incur more cost while seemingly unabnle
Final thought: He's an extremely passive aggressive person, which is the primary reason I do not like him, so I am wondering if he knows that only I (and Jim) will be harmed by his actions, ultimately, and is trying to fuck me/us over on purpose. He probably knows that he's not going to get kicked out if he keeps paying his rent but probably also knows that he's harming MY reputation by doing this. I don't want to get conspiratorial or paranoid, but this is in line with his general personality and previous patterns of behavior. Subtle, shitty little actions.
edit: In case it wasn't clear, he paid the rent late again, with a bounced check at the beginning of the month.
I know you didn't want to evict him, because you are a good person, but it may seriously be time to consider that. Maybe you and Jim could consider plainly telling him that one more missed payment/extra charge means he's out? A few other people in the thread suggested that earlier, did you do so already maybe? If so this may have been his last strike.
The other thing to consider is that in most places, you can't just kick someone out. There's a whole process to follow, which takes time, even if they aren't officially a "tenant." You should start seriously looking into the laws in your area so that you know your options ahead of time.
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He's also threatened to "tattle" on us before. We did a lease takeover here - basically this is a 2 bedroom upgraded to a 3 bedroom via a wall the previous landlord installed.
But the leasing office knows this and let it slide.
And the management office have done inspections here before, so they know it. It's, I guess, an "open secret."
That threat came back in April, and I told him "go ahead." He never actually went to the management office as far as I know, but he's proven that he's willing to fight shit even when he's in the wrong. I won't get into what precipitated that argument but he was definitely in the wrong.
I won't call him evil, but he's definitely one of my least favorite persons I've ever met once he revealed his true character to me.
At that time he mentioned in no uncertain terms that he does not consider me his landlord (and he's right) but what he was really saying is "fuck you, you aren't gonna hold anything over me, ever" because he directly pays his portion of the rent to the management office himself.
That said, you are probably right. He's probably just massively irresponsible.
I plan on talking to the building management but even if they purge them from the records, that's not a repeatable/sustainable or even fair situation.
I mean, honestly, as you mentioned in your OP you still have a year left. Do you honestly think you can manage to go a full year with him still? I don't think anyone here will disagree that you've done more than what you need to do for this guy. It even sounds like Jim agrees, so it's not just 'cause we're random Internet people only hearing one side of the story.
Start looking at your local laws, and figure out what you need to do.
Based on what you've said, too, I would seriously consider that he may do things once you've announced that you're evicting him, especially if you have to give 30 days notice or something like that legally. I would write down everything you can about the situation, and start documenting thoroughly going forward. Let your landlords/management know that you are going forward with this so that if something bad happens suddenly (everything in your apartment starts "randomly" breaking, sudden spike of anonymous complaints, etc.) they are aware. Take pictures of the place.
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Yeah...good point.
Fuck, I hate drama.
In regards to your credit/reputation, I might be wrong, but I think it only really affects you personally if you are evicted (which it might if they get sick of late rent payments associated with your apartment).
So, I spoke to Jim about it and he's also very angry at Dingle. He is supportive of evicting him.
I know I may be stupid/naive or maybe just lazy, but I want to avoid this outcome if I can.
We agreed to try and engage him in a friendly, adult conversation about what the issue is and lay it out that he is expected to pay his rent and his utilities by the 1st of every month.
A couple of things that came to light since my last post:
- Not really "came to light" but Jim pointed out that it was fucked up that Dingle took the rent bill I had left out on the table (literally removed it) and did not contact me or Jim afterword to say "hey, I took the rent bill" or anything. I mean, I clearly opened it up, not him, so that's super fucked up to begin with
- I hadn't looked at the ledger closely earlier. It looks like he submitted his November payment on or around 11/3 and then stopped payment on it
Both of those things are extremely shady.
"
Yeah I really need to think this through. I think having the conversation with him first is key, though.
My understanding is that New Jersey is a one party consent state. So if I am a part of the conversation and approve (of myself) recording the conversation, it is legal to do so.
Ask him to leave by the end of the year. Even if he makes a blood oath to do so, talk to the leasing office about who is responsible for getting the ball rolling on evicting him (either the owner (them) or the renters who had the agreement with Dingle (you and Jim) and get that eviction notice going anyways.