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[Extra Credits] As channels grow older, their voices will change...

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Posts

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Hopefully it's a Joel -> Mike kind of thing where new guy is still good.

    The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    I mean could they not really find a Dan. Or a Danielle.

    In all seriousness, this is interesting. I don't know that it will actually change the content much - it mostly seemed that Dan was the Mouth of James once they started working together, so I'm not sure how much involvement he had in the script at this point.

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    His rhythm and delivery are pretty important features. There are some real bad performances of Shakespeare, you know?

    The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
  • shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    I honestly had the thought that they were sick of Extra Credits and wanted to focus on Extra Sci-fi and Extra History instead. I did not expect that what was actually happening was Dan wanted to quit it all and move on.

    I do hope the new guy brings some freshness to what has been a pretty stagnant show for a while here. Too many episodes of "a list of games" or "bad takes on industry trends" of late.

  • Imaynotbehere4longImaynotbehere4long Registered User regular
    I wonder if they'll pitch up the new guy's voice too or if they'll leave it normal.

    On the subject of the episode that announcement was made in: I think choice paralysis is less about having too many choices and more about not really knowing the consequences of your choice. For example, when I played Oblivion, I played as a melee-focused character, but during the main quest, I was told I had to kill Will-O-Wisps, which can only be killed by magic, meaning I couldn't progress due to the choice I made. Since I didn't know what the game was expecting, I wasn't able to make an informed decision, so rather than be faced with a similar choice in another Elder Scrolls game, I decided not to play another one. This is a similar issue to their CRPG stats example: you can assume strength is attack power, will is magic power, etc., but you don't know which stats the game will prioritize (maybe if your speed is too low, you can't move or some other unforseen nonsense). The issue can be alleviated by adding descriptions to the stats like "magic is powerful against warriors but it can't harm warlocks" so you know what the game expects of players and you don't get stuck half-way through the game since you can't kill any warlocks. For the restaurant example, the issue is alleviated by listing how the meals are prepared so you can see if it's spicy or whatever, then figure out what works best for you that day by process of elimination.

  • NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    edited May 2018
    Yeah, the choice paralysis can suck.
    Unfortunately game devs seem to deal with it by simply not giving you any lot of the time.
    Main issue is simply games being poorly balanced, so you can build characters that are simply not capable of functioning, because they made a social character in a game that in the end forces you into combat, or a fighter type when you must use magic at some point, and so on and so forth.
    Or because you have no way to realisticly predict outcomes (poorly done conversation wheels are a good example of this).
    Also issue comes from optimization, players like to make optimal builds, and games where difference between great of unplayable can be very thin, choice paralysis suddenly kicks in, and people can avoid not only the game, but the genre (isometric rpg's have a huge issue with this imo).

    The idea of a drawnout character creator is a decent one (atleast as an option), but only works if the rest of the game follow the same logic shown in the character creator.

    Nyysjan on
  • FoefallerFoefaller Registered User regular
    I wonder if they'll pitch up the new guy's voice too or if they'll leave it normal.

    On the subject of the episode that announcement was made in: I think choice paralysis is less about having too many choices and more about not really knowing the consequences of your choice. For example, when I played Oblivion, I played as a melee-focused character, but during the main quest, I was told I had to kill Will-O-Wisps, which can only be killed by magic, meaning I couldn't progress due to the choice I made. Since I didn't know what the game was expecting, I wasn't able to make an informed decision, so rather than be faced with a similar choice in another Elder Scrolls game, I decided not to play another one. This is a similar issue to their CRPG stats example: you can assume strength is attack power, will is magic power, etc., but you don't know which stats the game will prioritize (maybe if your speed is too low, you can't move or some other unforseen nonsense). The issue can be alleviated by adding descriptions to the stats like "magic is powerful against warriors but it can't harm warlocks" so you know what the game expects of players and you don't get stuck half-way through the game since you can't kill any warlocks. For the restaurant example, the issue is alleviated by listing how the meals are prepared so you can see if it's spicy or whatever, then figure out what works best for you that day by process of elimination.

    I dunno, even when I spoil myself (at least in broad strokes) how things can go in PoE and Tyranny, I still often found myself sitting there wondering if I was doing the "right" thing for what I really wanted to do (of course, I also have anxiety issues, so this hits me often and hard) Still somewhat shocked I was able to play Alpha Protocol to the end, since that should have been the Ur-Example of a game that would have me on the floor traumatized over what might happen because of what I was doing. (Thinking it had to do in part because of its length, but also because it was pretty good in showing off the "no bad decisions" aspect and giving payoffs for it in several cases.)

    Another thing I think that games sometimes do that helps me with choice paralysis is the clear ability to do a do-over, especially in terms of building your character. I know a lot of diehard Diablo fans kinda hated on D3 giving each class every ability with no skill trees or stat choices, but the fact that I would only have to level a class once (per ladder season) and not worry about picking the wrong stats or skills for whatever legendary gear I wanted or found had me playing it much more than I did D2. Similar with Dragon's Dogma, and the important stats being 95% from your gear with unlimited vocation-swapping and infinite re-customization of your character's appearance once you've reached the post-game (which isn't really the post game, but that's the best way to describe it without spoilers) Skyrim is also a good one, not so much because of do-overability, but because pretty much every major quest line outside of the main one was accessible as soon as you left the cave (though I still always went for the shouts) which meant I could build a thief character for the Thieves' Guild, a Mage for the mage guild, a fighter, an assassin etc and head to that quest chain right off the bat.

    Someone in the comments had a pretty neat trick for dealing with it: Whenever this hits you, flip a coin... But you don't choose base on whether it came up heads or tails, you do what whatever you were hoping would come up instead.

    steam_sig.png
  • NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    Talking of PoE.
    That game has huge issues with choice paralysis.
    Almost every decision is, in some way, permanent, and you have no real way to know what is the "right" choice.

    Starting from character creation, there is an optimal character build, that build might be different for different players, but for everyone, there is an optimal, if not quite perfect, build.
    And you won't know what that build is without several playthroughs, or extensive research, if even then.
    Once you build your character, that's it, too late to make changes later in the game (well, there are some things you can do, but not much), one point in a stat can make or break some interactions.
    Then there is everything else.
    The right quest completion order, the right day to enter a map and open a container (get it wrong and you get crap loot instead of the most awesome item in the game), limited resources and not knowing what you can get later (leading me to not buy anything, ever, if i can get away with it), conversation options you can't get back to later, etc...

    I still haven't finished PoE, or Tyranny, mostly because i am constantly asked to make choices blindly, and with no way to change my mind later (like the option to ally or betray people, can only do so in certain signposted moments, no pretending to be an ally until a good opportunityfor a backstab appears in Tyranny).

  • FoefallerFoefaller Registered User regular
    edited May 2018
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    Talking of PoE.
    That game has huge issues with choice paralysis.
    Almost every decision is, in some way, permanent, and you have no real way to know what is the "right" choice.

    Starting from character creation, there is an optimal character build, that build might be different for different players, but for everyone, there is an optimal, if not quite perfect, build.
    And you won't know what that build is without several playthroughs, or extensive research, if even then.
    Once you build your character, that's it, too late to make changes later in the game (well, there are some things you can do, but not much), one point in a stat can make or break some interactions.
    Then there is everything else.
    The right quest completion order, the right day to enter a map and open a container (get it wrong and you get crap loot instead of the most awesome item in the game), limited resources and not knowing what you can get later (leading me to not buy anything, ever, if i can get away with it), conversation options you can't get back to later, etc...

    I still haven't finished PoE, or Tyranny, mostly because i am constantly asked to make choices blindly, and with no way to change my mind later (like the option to ally or betray people, can only do so in certain signposted moments, no pretending to be an ally until a good opportunityfor a backstab appears in Tyranny).

    re:Tyranny
    that depends on your definition of "betray." you can't jump between Dishonored and Chorus, or join up with the Tiers after Act I, but IIRC you can go "fuck ya'll" and do the anarchy path at pretty much any time in Act II.

    Also, Tyranny has New Game+ (which, IIRC lets you keep some Artifacts, some Reputation abilities, redo your stats, and at least for the Conquest, show what choices you made. Also, going through New Game+ again lets you keep an additional Artifact and Rep ability each time), so going through it to see every possibility isn't just recommended, its rewarded.

    As for PoE, I'm kinda horrified that someone at Obsidian thought the Gungir chest from FFXII was a good idea. Care to spoil what you are talking about?

    Foefaller on
    steam_sig.png
  • ArchangleArchangle Registered User regular
    Foefaller wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    Talking of PoE.
    That game has huge issues with choice paralysis.
    Almost every decision is, in some way, permanent, and you have no real way to know what is the "right" choice.

    Starting from character creation, there is an optimal character build, that build might be different for different players, but for everyone, there is an optimal, if not quite perfect, build.
    And you won't know what that build is without several playthroughs, or extensive research, if even then.
    Once you build your character, that's it, too late to make changes later in the game (well, there are some things you can do, but not much), one point in a stat can make or break some interactions.
    Then there is everything else.
    The right quest completion order, the right day to enter a map and open a container (get it wrong and you get crap loot instead of the most awesome item in the game), limited resources and not knowing what you can get later (leading me to not buy anything, ever, if i can get away with it), conversation options you can't get back to later, etc...

    I still haven't finished PoE, or Tyranny, mostly because i am constantly asked to make choices blindly, and with no way to change my mind later (like the option to ally or betray people, can only do so in certain signposted moments, no pretending to be an ally until a good opportunityfor a backstab appears in Tyranny).

    re:Tyranny
    that depends on your definition of "betray." you can't jump between Dishonored and Chorus, or join up with the Tiers after Act I, but IIRC you can go "fuck ya'll" and do the anarchy path at pretty much any time in Act II.

    Also, Tyranny has New Game+ (which, IIRC lets you keep some Artifacts, some Reputation abilities, redo your stats, and at least for the Conquest, show what choices you made. Also, going through New Game+ again lets you keep an additional Artifact and Rep ability each time), so going through it to see every possibility isn't just recommended, its rewarded.

    As for PoE, I'm kinda horrified that someone at Obsidian thought the Gungir chest from FFXII was a good idea. Care to spoil what you are talking about?
    Variable loot chests are a staple of Obsidian games. For example, in Neverwinter Nights 2 the most powerful items were generated through crafting - which relied on a limited supply of high-end gems (Rogue Stone, King's Tear etc.) There were a few merchants and boss-type mobs who had gems in their inventory, but the primary source was opening high-end chests - which loot was determined by pseudorandom number generation. If that generator used your system clock as a seed (I have no idea if it did, just tying it back to the OP), you could potentially get enough gems to go into the last act with +5, +spell, +immunity everything, or just a ragtag bunch of whatever crap you could find if your timing was shit.

    Personally, I went the save-scumming route - but it doesn't particularly matter if the "random" loot is pseudorandom or by designed schedule, I don't know if anyone "likes" variable loot but there's certainly a large number of people who hate it. I remember the Warhammer Online guy raving about how fantastic their "Las Vegas" roulette system for public quests was, and in practice it just pissed off a lot of people who stuck through the entire encounter and randomly got shit loot while someone who turned up in the last 30 seconds got top tier.

  • jothkijothki Registered User regular
    On the subject of the episode that announcement was made in: I think choice paralysis is less about having too many choices and more about not really knowing the consequences of your choice. For example, when I played Oblivion, I played as a melee-focused character, but during the main quest, I was told I had to kill Will-O-Wisps, which can only be killed by magic, meaning I couldn't progress due to the choice I made. Since I didn't know what the game was expecting, I wasn't able to make an informed decision, so rather than be faced with a similar choice in another Elder Scrolls game, I decided not to play another one. This is a similar issue to their CRPG stats example: you can assume strength is attack power, will is magic power, etc., but you don't know which stats the game will prioritize (maybe if your speed is too low, you can't move or some other unforseen nonsense). The issue can be alleviated by adding descriptions to the stats like "magic is powerful against warriors but it can't harm warlocks" so you know what the game expects of players and you don't get stuck half-way through the game since you can't kill any warlocks. For the restaurant example, the issue is alleviated by listing how the meals are prepared so you can see if it's spicy or whatever, then figure out what works best for you that day by process of elimination.

    Magic weapons can hit them. That piddly attack spell that you always have access to would probably eventually burn them down as well.

    Choice paralysis is definitely a thing, but it's important to recognize and differentiate between cases where you're being screwed over because of choices you made in the past and cases where you're being screwed over because of choices you're actively making in the present. Well-designed games will always give you some sort of out, even if it takes some effort to recognize it.

  • Mr KhanMr Khan Not Everyone WAHHHRegistered User regular
    The problem of choice paralysis comes from gamers who have chosen poorly in the past. I remember getting so fucked over in my runthrough of KOTOR 1 that i had to download a cheat engine to fix my character to start advancing into the later stages of the game. Sometimes you're wrong and the game becomes unplayable, or at least very unenjoyable.

  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    I recently gifted on Steam a friend Baldur's Gate 1 EE, after talking about how great a game it was (once upon a time). He played for an hour and never touched it again. I asked him about it, apparently he made a monk (because he wanted to punch things) and went with whatever stat roll the game have him initially, not realizing that
    - you can reroll as much as possible
    - some stats are better than others depending on your class

    He said "i assumed the game face me something appropriate".

    Then he died horribly and repeatedly to the wolves outside Candlekeep and never touched it again.

    steam_sig.png
  • ErlkönigErlkönig Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    I recently gifted on Steam a friend Baldur's Gate 1 EE, after talking about how great a game it was (once upon a time). He played for an hour and never touched it again. I asked him about it, apparently he made a monk (because he wanted to punch things) and went with whatever stat roll the game have him initially, not realizing that
    - you can reroll as much as possible
    - some stats are better than others depending on your class

    He said "i assumed the game face me something appropriate".

    Then he died horribly and repeatedly to the wolves outside Candlekeep and never touched it again.

    It's kinda interesting, but that's kind of how gaming has developed over the years with the advent and boom of digital distribution and the ease of use that accompanies it. We come to expect the game will actually tell us the information we need to know to make informed decisions (what stat does my Cleric need? what do these alignments mean and will they impact something later? etc...). However, with Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights, and a whole host of older games (I'm replaying some of the old Ultimas right now), literally all of that information was readily available in manuals. And, back then, actually reading the manual was an expectation rather than the exception (I mean, there's a reason we have the abbreviation "RTFM"). Even if you didn't pore over the manual(s), you still had them on hand for when you needed to read up on the more opaque systems in the games. And while those manuals still exist as PDFs, I have a feeling those files are rarely (if ever) actually opened and read.

    | Origin/R*SC: Ein7919 | Battle.net: Erlkonig#1448 | XBL: Lexicanum | Steam: Der Erlkönig (the umlaut is important) |
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    A
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    I recently gifted on Steam a friend Baldur's Gate 1 EE, after talking about how great a game it was (once upon a time). He played for an hour and never touched it again. I asked him about it, apparently he made a monk (because he wanted to punch things) and went with whatever stat roll the game have him initially, not realizing that
    - you can reroll as much as possible
    - some stats are better than others depending on your class

    He said "i assumed the game face me something appropriate".

    Then he died horribly and repeatedly to the wolves outside Candlekeep and never touched it again.

    He made the right decision. A system that punishes you for not sitting there pushing a button until you get something that isn't terrible does not deserve your time.

  • WiseManTobesWiseManTobes Registered User regular
    I remember when the kid living with me tried bg1, he got really sucked in and was trucking along for hours when he finally made a mistake and died.

    I asked "when did you last save"

    A sad look came across his face. He was used to autosave

    Steam! Battlenet:Wisemantobes#1508
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Today's Extra History feels like a backdoor pilot for Extra Math.

    The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    A
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    I recently gifted on Steam a friend Baldur's Gate 1 EE, after talking about how great a game it was (once upon a time). He played for an hour and never touched it again. I asked him about it, apparently he made a monk (because he wanted to punch things) and went with whatever stat roll the game have him initially, not realizing that
    - you can reroll as much as possible
    - some stats are better than others depending on your class

    He said "i assumed the game face me something appropriate".

    Then he died horribly and repeatedly to the wolves outside Candlekeep and never touched it again.

    He made the right decision. A system that punishes you for not sitting there pushing a button until you get something that isn't terrible does not deserve your time.

    In Baldur's Gate, you don't really need to do that. The more important thing is moving the stat points around.

  • DesyDesy She/Her YeenRegistered User regular
    edited May 2018
    Today's Extra History feels like a backdoor pilot for Extra Math.

    I am ok with this. I'm ready for next week's episode already.

    Desy on
    camo_sig2.png
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Erlkönig wrote: »
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    I recently gifted on Steam a friend Baldur's Gate 1 EE, after talking about how great a game it was (once upon a time). He played for an hour and never touched it again. I asked him about it, apparently he made a monk (because he wanted to punch things) and went with whatever stat roll the game have him initially, not realizing that
    - you can reroll as much as possible
    - some stats are better than others depending on your class

    He said "i assumed the game face me something appropriate".

    Then he died horribly and repeatedly to the wolves outside Candlekeep and never touched it again.

    It's kinda interesting, but that's kind of how gaming has developed over the years with the advent and boom of digital distribution and the ease of use that accompanies it. We come to expect the game will actually tell us the information we need to know to make informed decisions (what stat does my Cleric need? what do these alignments mean and will they impact something later? etc...). However, with Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights, and a whole host of older games (I'm replaying some of the old Ultimas right now), literally all of that information was readily available in manuals. And, back then, actually reading the manual was an expectation rather than the exception (I mean, there's a reason we have the abbreviation "RTFM"). Even if you didn't pore over the manual(s), you still had them on hand for when you needed to read up on the more opaque systems in the games. And while those manuals still exist as PDFs, I have a feeling those files are rarely (if ever) actually opened and read.

    RTFM was necessary in those days because it was impossible to fit the information in the game. But today, I'm in the camp that RTFM is, in most cases, an anti-pattern.

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
  • KrieghundKrieghund Registered User regular
    Today's Extra History feels like a backdoor pilot for Extra Math.

    I am ok with this. I'm ready for next week's episode already.

    Seriously, geometry was the only part of math I liked.

  • LoisLaneLoisLane Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Well all you people who hate Dan's voice in Extra Credits are getting what you want.

    He just announced on today's episode he's leaving the show. I am sad.

    Man I wanted to cry when I heard that.

  • Lord_AsmodeusLord_Asmodeus goeticSobriquet: Here is your magical cryptic riddle-tumour: I AM A TIME MACHINERegistered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    A
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    I recently gifted on Steam a friend Baldur's Gate 1 EE, after talking about how great a game it was (once upon a time). He played for an hour and never touched it again. I asked him about it, apparently he made a monk (because he wanted to punch things) and went with whatever stat roll the game have him initially, not realizing that
    - you can reroll as much as possible
    - some stats are better than others depending on your class

    He said "i assumed the game face me something appropriate".

    Then he died horribly and repeatedly to the wolves outside Candlekeep and never touched it again.

    He made the right decision. A system that punishes you for not sitting there pushing a button until you get something that isn't terrible does not deserve your time.

    In Baldur's Gate, you don't really need to do that. The more important thing is moving the stat points around.

    Yeah I mean if you really want to minmax it, IIRC the only way to get some stats like 18/00 is to roll it, but you don't actually need minmaxed stats to build a good BG character, just a decent spread.

    Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. - Lincoln
  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    I got over a hundred once and that character was pretty sick.

  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    You can also get a +1 to every stat (+3 to wisdom for some reason) by doing every thing there is to do. But not if you never make it past the wolves just outside Candlekeep.

    steam_sig.png
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    So, we have the first Matt episode, and it's...oh no.

    https://youtu.be/ywvTIM_eOVI

    Yeah, this is a trainwreck in a number of ways, especially in their suggestions to use blockchain in the game "properly". The first idea, creating weapons with lineages - we can do that already without blockchain and the reason we don't is because such systems are logistical and game balance nightmares.

    But it's the second suggestion that makes me want to grab Matt and James, smack both of them with a rolled up newspaper, and say "No. Bad devs." This suggestion was to build coin miners into a game as a form of revenue.

    ...have you not been reading the news? We have a word for such applications - malware. This is an unconscionable ask of gamers, and this idea needs to be drawn, quartered, and the remains sent to the four corners of the earth as a warning.

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
  • HerrCronHerrCron It that wickedly supports taxation Registered User regular
    I didn't get past the first minute, the new guy has a one of those 'youtube' voice I find horrible to listen to. Ohh well, it was a good run while it lasted.

    Which is a shame, because the second suggestion is kinda of interesting.

    Now Playing:
    Celeste [Switch] - She'll be wrestling with inner demons when she comes...
    Final Fantasy XII: The Zodiac Age [Switch] - Sit down and watch our game play itself
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    So, we have the first Matt episode, and it's...oh no.

    https://youtu.be/ywvTIM_eOVI

    Yeah, this is a trainwreck in a number of ways, especially in their suggestions to use blockchain in the game "properly". The first idea, creating weapons with lineages - we can do that already without blockchain and the reason we don't is because such systems are logistical and game balance nightmares.

    But it's the second suggestion that makes me want to grab Matt and James, smack both of them with a rolled up newspaper, and say "No. Bad devs." This suggestion was to build coin miners into a game as a form of revenue.

    ...have you not been reading the news? We have a word for such applications - malware. This is an unconscionable ask of gamers, and this idea needs to be drawn, quartered, and the remains sent to the four corners of the earth as a warning.

    James is pretty anti consumer in his views, he's basically fine with throwing slot machines at children because otherwise EA will go broke

  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    I literally have no idea what blockchain contributes to the first idea (items with a persistent history) that could not be done more efficiently with like... a well structured XML blob.

    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited May 2018
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    I literally have no idea what blockchain contributes to the first idea (items with a persistent history) that could not be done more efficiently with like... a well structured XML blob.

    nothing, and blockchain has the added problem of being completely unable to undo anything in the past, even if a bug or exploit was involved

    override367 on
  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    I literally have no idea what blockchain contributes to the first idea (items with a persistent history) that could not be done more efficiently with like... a well structured XML blob.
    It gives you an excuse to put malware on people's computers.

  • FoefallerFoefaller Registered User regular
    edited May 2018
    So, we have the first Matt episode, and it's...oh no.

    https://youtu.be/ywvTIM_eOVI

    Yeah, this is a trainwreck in a number of ways, especially in their suggestions to use blockchain in the game "properly". The first idea, creating weapons with lineages - we can do that already without blockchain and the reason we don't is because such systems are logistical and game balance nightmares.

    But it's the second suggestion that makes me want to grab Matt and James, smack both of them with a rolled up newspaper, and say "No. Bad devs." This suggestion was to build coin miners into a game as a form of revenue.

    ...have you not been reading the news? We have a word for such applications - malware. This is an unconscionable ask of gamers, and this idea needs to be drawn, quartered, and the remains sent to the four corners of the earth as a warning.

    I... respectively disagree.

    On the first idea, making growing weapons might be an issue, but having, say, unique-to-the-world/server relics that players can fight over (or, in a PvE game, lose after defeat to an NPC that another player has to kill to reclaim) could be pretty cool, and blockchains would be much better at ensuring that the relic isn't duped or hacked stolen (at least, in a non-sanctioned way) because IIRC those current ways of tracking who got what are mostly keeping a global record of transactions, rather than each item keeping its own record.

    As for the second. Bit Torrent anyone? The concept of letting a program use a part of your system as "payment" for the service is not new at all. I believe there is even a way to intentionally opt in to a botnet as a way to donate some of your processing power to research. The problem, of course, is having the mining going on when you are *not* playing, or without informing the player that that is what the game is going to do in the background, which would 100% make it malware.

    The real scary part for me was the early talk about having the player truly owning the blockchained item in question. *That* would open a whole flipping can of legal worms that I'm pretty sure isn't worth it, from possibly making it impossible to ban players, stop/limit gold selling, to dealing with lawsuits for destruction of property when it's time to turn the game off.

    Foefaller on
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  • HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    The first idea, creating weapons with lineages - we can do that already without blockchain and the reason we don't is because such systems are logistical and game balance nightmares.
    I disagree with you on this. Balance nightmare in what sense? I understand online games are competitive, but if it's in the PvE sense, it'll be balanced by the nature of the item's evolution. It's that one sword, and people can try and create another from the ground up but it could take time. Additionally, the sword getting those incremental power increases until it's strong as hell becomes more valuable to a point that someone won't necessarily want to get rid of it. Which will encourage the before-mentioned "make another," which lots of people will try to do and thus lots of alternatives are born. Eventually something will become more powerful and someone will give up the sword to someone else. It's not a 'balance nightmare,' it just becomes something for people to bitch about if they aren't the person owning the item in question.

    As far as requiring blockchain tech, yeah, I don't think that's necessary at all. The item evolution idea though is feasible.

    The rest of the shit about having bitcoin mining built into games, yeah, fuck that. I'll defend James' assertions on previous topics (especially most aren't as hard-leaning as people think) but this one is just super blatant and stupid. Methinks someone has a digital currency investment ongoing and wants to promote their growth.

  • WotanAnubisWotanAnubis Registered User regular
    Any "free" game that's going to fuck up your computer's hardware and consume monstrous amounts of electricity by forcing you to mine bitcoin while you play it had better be damn go-

    No. No wait.

    Doesn't matter how good it is. There's no justifying that.

    Also, what kind of people think bitcoin is an actual currency?

  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    Any "free" game that's going to fuck up your computer's hardware and consume monstrous amounts of electricity by forcing you to mine bitcoin while you play it had better be damn go-
    No. No wait.
    Doesn't matter how good it is. There's no justifying that.
    Also, what kind of people think bitcoin is an actual currency?

    The people who have invested a substantial amount of actual currency to accrue bitcoin currency?

    Alternate answer:
    The manufacturers of graphics cards who are pulling in loads of actual currency to enable their customers to accrue bitcoin currency.

  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    Foefaller wrote: »
    So, we have the first Matt episode, and it's...oh no.

    https://youtu.be/ywvTIM_eOVI

    Yeah, this is a trainwreck in a number of ways, especially in their suggestions to use blockchain in the game "properly". The first idea, creating weapons with lineages - we can do that already without blockchain and the reason we don't is because such systems are logistical and game balance nightmares.

    But it's the second suggestion that makes me want to grab Matt and James, smack both of them with a rolled up newspaper, and say "No. Bad devs." This suggestion was to build coin miners into a game as a form of revenue.

    ...have you not been reading the news? We have a word for such applications - malware. This is an unconscionable ask of gamers, and this idea needs to be drawn, quartered, and the remains sent to the four corners of the earth as a warning.

    I... respectively disagree.

    On the first idea, making growing weapons might be an issue, but having, say, unique-to-the-world/server relics that players can fight over (or, in a PvE game, lose after defeat to an NPC that another player has to kill to reclaim) could be pretty cool, and blockchains would be much better at ensuring that the relic isn't duped or hacked stolen (at least, in a non-sanctioned way) because IIRC those current ways of tracking who got what are mostly keeping a global record of transactions, rather than each item keeping its own record.

    As for the second. Bit Torrent anyone? The concept of letting a program use a part of your system as "payment" for the service is not new at all. I believe there is even a way to intentionally opt in to a botnet as a way to donate some of your processing power to research. The problem, of course, is having the mining going on when you are *not* playing, or without informing the player that that is what the game is going to do in the background, which would 100% make it malware.

    The real scary part for me was the early talk about having the player truly owning the blockchained item in question. *That* would open a whole flipping can of legal worms that I'm pretty sure isn't worth it, from possibly making it impossible to ban players, stop/limit gold selling, to dealing with lawsuits for destruction of property when it's time to turn the game off.

    Blockchain doesn't do anything you describe well. Blockchain allows you to conduct financial transactions between remote institutions absurdly slowly without trust. A video game central server does not need to trust anyone (as it does all logging and record keeping itself and if you disagree then screw you) and requires very fast communication to the local players about what is going on.

    Blockchain is stupid and solves no problems. Video games cannot create a new problem which blockchain might be useful to solve.

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
  • FoefallerFoefaller Registered User regular
    edited May 2018
    Any "free" game that's going to fuck up your computer's hardware and consume monstrous amounts of electricity by forcing you to mine bitcoin while you play it had better be damn go-

    No. No wait.

    Doesn't matter how good it is. There's no justifying that.

    Also, what kind of people think bitcoin is an actual currency?

    The kind of people who don't understand why we got off the gold standard. And/or doesn't realize that just because it's digital doesn't mean it is super cheap to make.

    IIRC there is also something about how it would work that would make things like online and large $$ transactions much simpler (think about not having to involve a bank?) but the whole "We went with paper fiat for a reason" kinda holds that back.

    I'll admit that I don't know much about how you *make* crypto currencies, other than it normally takes a shitload of electricity. I'm assuming what they have in mind isn't to run people's CPUs to the verge of exploding.

    Foefaller on
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  • HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    Foefaller wrote: »
    Any "free" game that's going to fuck up your computer's hardware and consume monstrous amounts of electricity by forcing you to mine bitcoin while you play it had better be damn go-

    No. No wait.

    Doesn't matter how good it is. There's no justifying that.

    Also, what kind of people think bitcoin is an actual currency?

    The kind of people who don't understand why we got off the gold standard. And/or doesn't realize that just because it's digital doesn't mean it is super cheap to make.

    IIRC there is also something about how it would work that would make things like online and large $$ transactions much simpler (think about not having to involve a bank?) but the whole "We went with paper fiat for a reason" kinda holds that back.

    I'll admit that I don't know much about how you *make* crypto currencies, other than it normally takes a shitload of electricity. I'm assuming what they have in mind is to run people's CPUs to the verge of exploding.
    Societies abandoning the gold standard have an understanding that currencies are now essentially backed by military might, and so far that shit hasn't been challenged yet.

    Crypto currencies are backed by "I said so" or energy consumption. There may be an intricate database in place as far as transaction logs go, but that isn't exactly a "backing." It's a security measure.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    see317 wrote: »
    Any "free" game that's going to fuck up your computer's hardware and consume monstrous amounts of electricity by forcing you to mine bitcoin while you play it had better be damn go-
    No. No wait.
    Doesn't matter how good it is. There's no justifying that.
    Also, what kind of people think bitcoin is an actual currency?

    The people who have invested a substantial amount of actual currency to accrue bitcoin currency?

    Alternate answer:
    The manufacturers of graphics cards who are pulling in loads of actual currency to enable their customers to accrue bitcoin currency.

    That's people who think Bitcoin is an investment, not a currency. But there's a whole thread for that discussion.

  • FoefallerFoefaller Registered User regular
    edited May 2018
    Henroid wrote: »
    Foefaller wrote: »
    Any "free" game that's going to fuck up your computer's hardware and consume monstrous amounts of electricity by forcing you to mine bitcoin while you play it had better be damn go-

    No. No wait.

    Doesn't matter how good it is. There's no justifying that.

    Also, what kind of people think bitcoin is an actual currency?

    The kind of people who don't understand why we got off the gold standard. And/or doesn't realize that just because it's digital doesn't mean it is super cheap to make.

    IIRC there is also something about how it would work that would make things like online and large $$ transactions much simpler (think about not having to involve a bank?) but the whole "We went with paper fiat for a reason" kinda holds that back.

    I'll admit that I don't know much about how you *make* crypto currencies, other than it normally takes a shitload of electricity. I'm assuming what they have in mind is to run people's CPUs to the verge of exploding.
    Societies abandoning the gold standard have an understanding that currencies are now essentially backed by military might, and so far that shit hasn't been challenged yet.

    Crypto currencies are backed by "I said so" or energy consumption. There may be an intricate database in place as far as transaction logs go, but that isn't exactly a "backing." It's a security measure.

    I was thinking more that it's pretty much impossible to have a stable currency that can keep pace with economic growth and/or inflation unless said currency has a perceived value that is greater than it's material value/harvesting cost.

    Otherwise you risk a deflationary death spiral when either inflation grows faster than you can print new money, or the source of said money exceeds the value of the currency itself

    Foefaller on
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