As was foretold, we've added advertisements to the forums! If you have questions, or if you encounter any bugs, please visit this thread: https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/240191/forum-advertisement-faq-and-reports-thread/
Options
Relationship Advice.
nightmarenny
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Hi, I've been in relationship with my girlfriend for a long time. Almost three years now. We've been fighting a ton and I'm nearly at my wits end. I just don't know what to do. The fights are almost always about petty stupid things, I'd noticed a year or so back we started getting in fights every two weeks or so. Its been almost like clock work. Recently the fighting has increased and become more and more petty. I don't know what to do about it but I know it needs to stop. All of my time is taken fighting with her and I've recently taken a second job and we just don't have that much time to spend together. The real problem though is my nerves. I don't have an easy time fighting with her. Its emotionally draining in a way that is unsustainable. There real problem for me is that she doesn't have a filter when she is mad. She will say some really terrible things with completely casualness once she is upset. These things linger in the back of my mind and they don't go away. Stuff about how stupid I am for picking the career I did or how much of a child I am for still living with my parents at 26(after my previous girlfriend broke up with me I moved in to try and make a home business with my dad work) or various attacks on my sexual prowess or the things Im into during sex. The thing is that we had been planning to move in together soon but with the constant fighting I decided against it. I told her we need to find a way to not fight all the time and she needed to figure out how to control herself during a fight. I told her that I really want to move in but that I'm not going to jeopardize our relationship by putting more pressure on us. The thing is now she thinks I don't want to at all even though I keep telling her I do and she won't even admit she does it. Rather she'll say things like "I already admitted it before so I shouldn't have to now" which I have no memory of. Ive told her that it seems like if she has admitted it before it shouldn't be any problem now but she always avoids it. Whenever we talk about it that is something she did in the PAST but never something she has done in the last couple days. When I bring it up in the middle of a fight she'll cross the line and I'll tell her so. Ill tell her that she is hurting my feelings and to please back off and she will respond "You always say Im doing that" or say "Im just stating facts". I've told her I just want her to admit its something she does and to promise that when I tell her she is hurting my feelings she will take it seriously. Is that unfair? that to me is the real problem. It doesn't feel to me that she respects me or my feelings. Whenever I tell her this is something we need to fix she responds "why bother you don't want to move in with me anyway".
She has this thing about apologizing that is related. She won't ever apologize during or right after a fight. She won't even admit she's done anything wrong. She has apologized days later. She says that if she apologized after a fight she would just be apologizing to end the fight. That it wouldn't be genuine. Its making me feel crazy to be honest. I hesitate to use the word because of its strength and its context as a weapon shitty dudes do to their victims but I sometimes feel Im being gaslit. I don't think she is doing it on purpose but she'll often say things that never happened in a fight or misrepresent things in such a way that makes me question my sanity. It probably doesn't help that neither of us have friends we feel comfortable talking about this with. There was a time last week where we were walking her two dogs and the one I was walking kept getting in her way because he wanted to be next to the other dog. She told me to just give the leash to her and I felt confident I could stop him from getting in the way and didn't want her to have to walk the both of them so I said "I got it". About 30 seconds later I notice she hasn't said anything and try to start a conversation. She refuses to speak with me. Eventually she snaps at me that she wanted to hold the dogs leash because he was getting in her way and he'd be happier that way. I tried to talk her down and we ended up just fighting right there in the park and I eventually just handed her the leashed. Later when we were talking about the fight later she insisted repeatedly that she told me the reasons why she wanted to hold the dogs leash before getting mad. Also she will profess that she doesn't have the best memory except when it comes to something we are fighting about which inevitably devolves in to me trying to tell her how I remember it and her repeatably interrupting me "Nope" which is very frustrating. I don't expect her to just believe what I remember but it doesn't even seem like she cares to understand how I see things.
She's been accusing me of being condescending to her more and more recently. I'm worried she has a point but I can't figure out a way to get her to listen to me. We used to be engaging in a power-exchange relationship but it didn't work out for several reasons. We talk about maybe doing it again in the future when things have changed but its off the table and it doesn't feel like she respects me or my feelings when we are trying to have a vanilla relationship. Ive tried communicating my feelings to her but never seems to take my words to heart. She says Im to sensitive or that nothing that I say happened actually happened and when I give her specific example we end up fight for hour over minutia. First it didn't happen, then it happened but its not as bad as Im acting like then she says "your right Im just the worst why do you even date me" which isn't true. I love her dearly. I just want to deal with our issues and move on. One thing she found condescending was that I tried to take personal feelings out of things completely. I asked her "Can we agree that in an argument our goal is to find a solution to our problems that make us both happy?" and she responded "obviously" so I moved on "Can we then also agree that saying hurtful and unrelated things about the other person or escalating our conflict is working against our goal of ending the fight in a way that works for the both of us?" which is when she called me condescending. Is it? She also feels Im being condescending when I describe her feelings sometimes. I told her she seemed sullen to me and got that response.
I love her very dearly and I really want to make this work. She's a wonderfully kind and thoughtful person but Ive reached the last of my idea for how to deal with this. I don't want to make her feel bad and I don't want her to make me feel bad.
She has this thing about apologizing that is related. She won't ever apologize during or right after a fight. She won't even admit she's done anything wrong. She has apologized days later. She says that if she apologized after a fight she would just be apologizing to end the fight. That it wouldn't be genuine. Its making me feel crazy to be honest. I hesitate to use the word because of its strength and its context as a weapon shitty dudes do to their victims but I sometimes feel Im being gaslit. I don't think she is doing it on purpose but she'll often say things that never happened in a fight or misrepresent things in such a way that makes me question my sanity. It probably doesn't help that neither of us have friends we feel comfortable talking about this with. There was a time last week where we were walking her two dogs and the one I was walking kept getting in her way because he wanted to be next to the other dog. She told me to just give the leash to her and I felt confident I could stop him from getting in the way and didn't want her to have to walk the both of them so I said "I got it". About 30 seconds later I notice she hasn't said anything and try to start a conversation. She refuses to speak with me. Eventually she snaps at me that she wanted to hold the dogs leash because he was getting in her way and he'd be happier that way. I tried to talk her down and we ended up just fighting right there in the park and I eventually just handed her the leashed. Later when we were talking about the fight later she insisted repeatedly that she told me the reasons why she wanted to hold the dogs leash before getting mad. Also she will profess that she doesn't have the best memory except when it comes to something we are fighting about which inevitably devolves in to me trying to tell her how I remember it and her repeatably interrupting me "Nope" which is very frustrating. I don't expect her to just believe what I remember but it doesn't even seem like she cares to understand how I see things.
She's been accusing me of being condescending to her more and more recently. I'm worried she has a point but I can't figure out a way to get her to listen to me. We used to be engaging in a power-exchange relationship but it didn't work out for several reasons. We talk about maybe doing it again in the future when things have changed but its off the table and it doesn't feel like she respects me or my feelings when we are trying to have a vanilla relationship. Ive tried communicating my feelings to her but never seems to take my words to heart. She says Im to sensitive or that nothing that I say happened actually happened and when I give her specific example we end up fight for hour over minutia. First it didn't happen, then it happened but its not as bad as Im acting like then she says "your right Im just the worst why do you even date me" which isn't true. I love her dearly. I just want to deal with our issues and move on. One thing she found condescending was that I tried to take personal feelings out of things completely. I asked her "Can we agree that in an argument our goal is to find a solution to our problems that make us both happy?" and she responded "obviously" so I moved on "Can we then also agree that saying hurtful and unrelated things about the other person or escalating our conflict is working against our goal of ending the fight in a way that works for the both of us?" which is when she called me condescending. Is it? She also feels Im being condescending when I describe her feelings sometimes. I told her she seemed sullen to me and got that response.
I love her very dearly and I really want to make this work. She's a wonderfully kind and thoughtful person but Ive reached the last of my idea for how to deal with this. I don't want to make her feel bad and I don't want her to make me feel bad.
0
Posts
This is not ok and you do not need to put up with it. I'm hesitant to use the A word here but alarm bells are ringing.
DO NOT under any circumstances move in with her. Not until these issues are resolved. The fact that she doesn't apologise out of good faith means she thinks this kind of shit is ok.
I'm not doubting your love for her but I would argue that this is not a good relationship. If you're arguing like this and frequently.
Side note: how is the business with your dad doing? Moving out of your parents is a good thing to do if possible. I just wouldn't do it with your girlfriend.
I'll keep this short. I think you should break up with her.
After two years its reached a consistent sustainable income but not enough I could ever live off of which is fine. I got a second job as a part time delivery driver and minimum wage plus tips plus the business is more than enough for now while I finish school.
You do not have the time or energy to put up with a crappy relationship. The dog lead story you mentioned screams gaslighting to me
You said it yourself about the fighting, but honestly sounds like a solid description of the relationship.
And this has been going on for a year..
Do not move in with her. Break up with her.
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
Seeing my younger self in some of your girlfriend's behavior, I can agree with you that some or all of it she may not be aware that she's doing, these behaviors may be survival leftovers from a dysfunctional relationship she had or has. That doesn't change the advice, though: break up with her. Even before I got to the (even worse) things in the post, her becoming contemptuous of you during arguments is just unacceptable. There can be no love where there is contempt. And your post only gets worst from there.
She doesnt really have a whole lot of experience. She had one series boyfriend and it ended in sort of cold fuckbuddy situation. She had had a really abusive relationship with her mom however that seems to have affected her greatly. She often notices herself repeating the same behavior she hated her mom for doing. I have resolved myself to talk with her today one last time and break up with her if I cant get through to her. I appreciate everyones responses for confirming that Im not crazy or just being over sensitive. Does anybody have any advice for getting through to her? I havent painted the best picture of her and I know our relationship cant go on if this continues but it wasnt just plattitudes when I said she is the best person I know. I think she feels like she cant give any ground or be vulnerable with me because of her past relationship and abusive family past. I dont believe shes doing anything on purpose.
Is there any hope of comuncating this to her?
You're definitely not being oversensitive. I would try to calmly explain what the issues are without placing blame (if possible). That you seem to argue all the time and sometimes her recollection of things are not correct. Then go from there.
If I had to guess what happens next, she's going to blow up on you and it ends up with you breaking up. Hopefully not but please be prepared for this
she's not going to change because 'you're the one who's the problem'
(not really, but that's what the justification will be)
how long do you want to be this unhappy?
Man this is a hard one because, like I said, I can see glimpses of myself and my own 'fleas' from growing up in an abusive household. I want to give you advice for getting through but I think that would ultimately be a mistake for you, because you'll be kept longer in a relationship that's damaging to you. Even if you know the things she says that berate you are not true (and I hope you do), the psychological effect remains, and increases the longer you are with her.
Whatever career you decided on, it's YOUR career and you are the expert on your own life and the final arbiter of what is a good career for you.There's nothing shameful about living with your parents, even if it wasn't for business reasons. Many people live with their parents, increasingly so in "this economy" as the saying goes. Also some cultures are built upon the idea of multiple generations living within the same house. Whatever you enjoy in the bedroom is - beyond certain illegal behaviors - enjoyed by many, many other people throughout the world and is also in no way deserving of ridicule. Anyone commenting negatively on any of these things is full of bullshit and ought to be ashamed of themselves.
In my opinion, any time she brings up something like this, it should be the end of the conversation. It should be a "Holy shit, did you really just say that?" followed by you leaving the room/building/neighborhood/city/country/planet. You've gotten to a point in your relationship where (based on what you've said, though maybe I've misinterpreted), things like that are said, and the argument continues. To someone who is screwed in the head by an abusive household, that means the things she said are OK, acceptable, and just part of a regular argument. You can't combat that mindset by arguing more about it, because the things mentioned place you so far below her that you aren't even on a level platform to argue.
So... I genuinely feel like boundaries are sufficiently breached here that you probably aren't going to be able to reset the relationship to not be terrible, but if you really think there might be a possibility of hope and wanted to try, you can use noping out as part of a communication method for maybe getting through to her. Such a thing would look something like this:
Her: *Says something awful about bedroom times*
You: That was a really awful thing to say. Please stop.
Her: *Continues in the same vein*
You: You're hurting me and I'm done with this conversation.
Then you leave and if you're likely to get a thousand texts or an immediate phone call because you left then you turn off your phone on the way out. Go to a movie, or go to the library and try to read a book, or do whatever you can do to calm down and relax yourself. Have a spa day or a massage if you see that as something that would make you happy to do. A supportive friend would be helpful here, someone you could hang with sans girlfriend to take your mind off things, hopefully someone in whom you could confide your relationship troubles in.
Then you contact her the next day and see where it goes. Is she immediately apologetic and sorry, speaking honestly about her behavior? Good! That means there some hope. Does she act angry with you for what you did to her and seem unaware that she did anything wrong? Bad. The noping out method can still work in that case, in the manner of training a toddler, but she'll possibly never understand why certain behaviors are bad, she'll just know doing certain things loses her time with you and so she'll begin to avoid them. And if you have to teach someone not to be an asshole it really, really doesn't seem like it would be an enjoyable relationship.
I know that leaving in the middle of an argument will feel weird and awkward as fuck. But it's the first step towards really standing up for yourself with this woman, and if it helps remind yourself that you are not the one making it awkward. She already made it awkward by berating you in such an appalling way and by gaslighting and being emotionally dishonest; by leaving you are, in fact, attempting to put an end to the awkwardness.
I include all of that only because you asked if there could be any method of getting through, and that's one that might work. But my answer remains the same, that I think you should break up.
I'd suggest taking more drastic steps. Leave, and cut all communication for at least 2-3 months. You both may be in a place after to communicate, but take at least time time to get perspective.
It sucks, but she has to figure out herself. You can't do it for her. Maybe in time she'll do just that and you two could revisit what you have and whether it makes both of you happy, but in the end, you need to be happy. And you aren't. Fights happen, dips happen, but this doesn't sound like a dip. This sounds like the honeymoon ended and the rose colored glasses came off.
Living with your parents is not any kind of barometer on the success or failure of your life.
My wife and I live with my mother and her wife. We're all saving boat loads of money, have healthy relationships, and can more easily make family time happen.
Anyone, anyone, who uses that card against you, is someone with a very narrow and ignorant world view.
Completely agree and I'm someone who couldn't move out of their parent's place soon enough.
The perception of living with your parents due to being a manchild is valid in very few situations.
I'm going to be honest with you here, I didn't finish the first paragraph. I don't know if there's some kind of extenuating circumstance that's going to make what I read there okay, but I have a pretty damn good imagination and I am having a lot of trouble coming up with one.
I have very direct, painful experience with that kind of behavior, except it didn't wait three years, but about 2 months after we moved in together (which I shouldn't have done in the first place but Not-So-Distant-Past Me was not great at relationship patience). The fights were like clockwork and tended to last in some form or other for about three days, and I'd say two weeks was even about the exact schedule. It was just like you describe; the most horrible things would come out of their mouth with such venom, like they meant to wound with them. There was no winning and no compromise, only apologies on my part and the hope that they'd forget about it soon. All of that over something so incredibly small or petty that after just 20 minutes I'd find myself wondering "wait, how did we get here?"
I know things aren't perfect where you are, but you can't live like that. It's not worth it. The things you mention her saying to you are not valid; they are meant to touch a nerve and do damage. They are meant to get into your head and stay there. She is not an incredibly kind and thoughtful person, because kind and thoughtful people will at a bare minimum listen to your feelings and they don't weaponize your insecurities. They don't say things with the sole purpose of hurting you.
It is commendable that you want to try to "get through" to her. But even if you are successful, there will be a long, hard road that follows where you will undoubtedly continue to experience the toxic and degradading behaviors that brought you to this point in the first place. For the sake of your own emotional and mental health I recommend ending this relationship.
Also, ceres is on point with the phrase "weaponized insecurities". Relationships are meant to be constructive. Someone harping on the things that hurt you the most is decidedly not being constructive, and is likely instead being destructively manipulative. In other words, they are willing to trade in your self-worth in exchange for their own personal gain.
In a relationship, a couple needs to "know how to fight." You're gonna have disagreements, but both people should approach them with the intent that the 'fight' is a means to reach a resolution. "How do we differ, why do we differ, what do you need, here's what I need, how can we best resolve this as a couple."
That's not how the girlfriend here looks at fighting. She fights to win, and that's a zero sum game where destroying her opponent clears her path to victory and no psychological weakness is off limits.
Just want to highlight this response ^
Even if she's 100% on board with becoming a better person so that she can be in a happy relationship (not just with you, but with anyone), you're looking at a 5+ year commitment (more than that, really), and in the meantime you will have to continue on with the poison that you're already finding unbearable. And being in a relationship with someone who has, so far, seemed to be accepting of her behavior is likely to keep her unmotivated to change it.
Why haven't you broken up already? When my friend tells me the stories (or even relays them via screenshots of texts) I tell them to leave their partner because it's not healthy to be with someone who flips out over everything and makes you feel like shit so often. Each time they have a fight, like two days later they come back saying 'okay we talked it over everything is okay now' then another fight over something stupid and then another talk and the circle continues. Whenever I ask why they just haven't broken up already they tell me 'love skews things'. It kind of baffles me because I'm not sure how a person can love someone like this. But I've also never really been in love so I guess I can't relate.
Do you love this person? You say you've been with her for 3 years and for the past year it has only gotten worse. So then she always wasn't like this? Do you have any idea what may have caused the relationship to strain this much?
Some people stay in relationships like this out of hope that their partner improves. Or maybe it's low self esteem thinking they have to cling to this because they won't find anything else. I've been in that situation myself and I finally broke up with her. It can kind of suck being lonely and it has been like 5 years since I had a relationship. But I'm still way happier not having to deal with that shit anymore. I didn't need that in my life and neither do you. Especially with two jobs.
It sounds like you already know what to do, though. Hopefully you're able to move on and sever this massive source of stress.
Google "why people stay in abusive relationships." It's really not a mystery.
Short version: variable reward schedules are incredibly addicting to our monkey brains. Sure, your partner might be an asshole most of the time, but sometimes they're super sweet. You just never know when, and that's very compelling. It's the same reason people play slots. The only interesting thing about slot machines is that any pull could be a huge payout. It probably won't - but it could! And that's enough to keep people playing.
Then there's the other side of the coin, which is the fear and isolation abusers instill in their victims. They encourage, manipulate, and/or force the victim to cut themselves off from friends and family, so that the abuser is the only person they have regular contact with. This makes the victim dependent on the abuser for affection and positive reinforcement (because they're not allowed to get it anywhere else).
Meanwhile, the victim fears the abuser's reactions to perceived insults more and more as the abuse escalates. The constant fear makes the abuser's intermittent displays of affection all the more powerful, because the sheer relief of not getting punished (for the moment) is an incredible rush by itself. The more afraid the victim gets, the more they try to avoid "provoking" the abuse by interacting with people other than their abuser; so they get more and more isolated and dependent on that same abuser. It's a vicious cycle.
The kicker is that it's really hard to see this from inside the relationship, because the constant gaslighting, abuse, and emotional whiplash keep the victim too disoriented to easily take stock. It's hard to convey how powerful that effect can be to someone who hasn't experienced it. You learn to doubt your sanity. You become halfway (or more) convinced that your perception of reality is wrong. You know that something is terribly broken, but it's easier to believe that it's you than that the other person is behaving in ways that make no fucking sense. The abuser, of course, constantly tells the victim that the abuse is their fault, and that what's happening isn't happening. Perversely, the more you doubt your own memory, the less reliable it gets. Your perception really does get warped; just not in the way you think it is.
You know how some guys describe their exes as "crazy?"
That's not an accident.
On top of all that, abusers escalate to their most dangerous when the victim tries to leave. "Woman murdered by ex-boyfriend" is practically a cliche, and this is why.
There are other reasons and more nuances, and of course every relationship has its own special quirks. But those are the big ones.
If you really want to understand the ins and outs of the techniques involved, Why Does He Do That? is a good read (and applies to both genders, despite the gendered title). For a manual on learning and heeding warning signs, The Gift of Fear is also worth reading.
The guy who abused me was also attracted to my best friend at the time and made no secret of it. He laid the charm on her pretty thick for awhile. She knew what was up, though, because she knew his most recent ex and could see what he was doing to me, so she was having none of it. Once he figured that out, he dropped the lovable-goofball act with her so abruptly it was like flipping a switch.
I don't think she knew what to say to me, and I don't blame her. "I'm worried about how s/he treats you" is a pretty safe opening.