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[Hiberno-Britannic Politics] Thanks For The Deal, I Hate It

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Posts

  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    H3Knuckles wrote: »
    Sorry, I figured the sarcasm would be clear. Fox's perspective is absurd.

    I know you're being sarcastic but I felt a need to be sincere.

  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    I've seen leavers complaining about there being too many foreigners in Spain. I think a considerable portion of both immigrants and tourists are british, though.

    V1m
  • Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie ATOMIKA! IT’S ME! IT’S DESKTOP HIPPIE!Registered User regular
    I still can’t believe this is actually happening. I mean it’ll be a disaster for us and we at least will have the EU helping us over the hump. Surely somebody somewhere in the UK is going to pull you back from the brink? I mean most businesses in the UK have to know the nightmare you’re sleepwalking into... right?!

    muhqxj.jpg
    H3KnucklesLuianeBurnageElldrenSolarZilla360
  • ShadowenShadowen Snores in the morning Registered User regular
    I'm afraid the Tories have fallen into the newest electoral and governance strategy being used by more and more conservatives all around the world: performative cruelty. It's fucking bonkers, but it works.

    "But you're cutting off your own nose!" rational people say.

    "Yeah, but my face will hate it," conservatives say.

    H3KnucklesPLAtynicElldrenAistanMahnmutknitdanZilla360Label
  • NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    Tories continue not to grasp that having UK crash and burn is, if not in EU's best interests, atleast in some ways advantageous.

  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    FortSumterUltimatum.jpg

    H3KnucklesaltidZilla360
  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    Fox makes no apology for his no deal doom-mongering. “I think it’s essential that ‘no deal’ looks credible to the EU. If it’s causing some anxiety in Britain — think what it’s causing in Brussels,” he said.

    H3KnucklesShadowenZilla360
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    When Russia invaded Prussia in August 1914, the German Government housed refugees all over Germany so their frightful tales would stiffen resolve. The refugee tales spooked Germany so much they actually diverted troops from the offensive in France to blunt the attack, and while it was successfully repulsed, it may have cost them the chance for a knockout victory in the west, leading to the attritional hell we all know and love.

    If your strategy involves scaring your own side, maybe reconsider that.

  • H3KnucklesH3Knuckles Jack of all interests... ...master of noneRegistered User regular
    PLA wrote: »
    Fox makes no apology for his no deal doom-mongering. “I think it’s essential that ‘no deal’ looks credible to the EU. If it’s causing some anxiety in Britain — think what it’s causing in Brussels,” he said.


    Alternatively...

    If you're curious about my icon; it's an update of the early Lego Castle theme's "Black Falcons" faction.
    camo_sig2-400.png
    JazzRMS OceanicCommander ZoomFencingsaxShadowenRchanenZilla360
  • japanjapan Registered User regular
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    Tories continue not to grasp that having UK crash and burn is, if not in EU's best interests, atleast in some ways advantageous.

    My feeling is that it's because the UK and the EU are not measuring the potential impact to the EU in the same way. The EU sees the damage to the integrity of the single market, and the amount of control that the UK proposals would involve it giving up, and consider those costs to be too great relative to the economic hit. The UK sees only the economic hit because it doesn't perceive the integrity of the single market as intrinsically valuable (or it wouldn't be leaving, obvs).

    There's a related issue (which is brought up a lot of you read Irish commentary) which is that the UK genuinely seems to have difficulty grasping that the EU27 really mean it when they say that the issues of a single member state are issues for the bloc as a whole. You can see this in the reaction to this tactic of individually approaching member state governments instead of the commission - the UK is working on the assumption that the big states tell the small states what to do, so they can override objections from smaller states (like Ireland) by appealing to the big states (like France and Germany). European commentators tend to view this as at best, a bit strange. The French find it downright insulting.

    PLAElldrenFencingsaxRchanenZilla360
  • SanderJKSanderJK Crocodylus Pontifex Sinterklasicus Madrid, 3000 ADRegistered User regular
    Yeah, the EU leadership is fully aware that the deal has to be sour for the UK. A sweet deal will set up the end of the Union, as any net payer will start agitating for leaving. If you can get a better deal by being a third party, why put up with the downsides of membership?

    This is something that still doesn't resonate from anything the UK government puts forth. Probably because they can't without the government falling. But that line will not be crossed. It's not a negotiating tactic, because it's not negotiable.

    Steam: SanderJK Origin: SanderJK
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  • NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    japan wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    Tories continue not to grasp that having UK crash and burn is, if not in EU's best interests, atleast in some ways advantageous.

    My feeling is that it's because the UK and the EU are not measuring the potential impact to the EU in the same way. The EU sees the damage to the integrity of the single market, and the amount of control that the UK proposals would involve it giving up, and consider those costs to be too great relative to the economic hit. The UK sees only the economic hit because it doesn't perceive the integrity of the single market as intrinsically valuable (or it wouldn't be leaving, obvs).

    There's a related issue (which is brought up a lot of you read Irish commentary) which is that the UK genuinely seems to have difficulty grasping that the EU27 really mean it when they say that the issues of a single member state are issues for the bloc as a whole. You can see this in the reaction to this tactic of individually approaching member state governments instead of the commission - the UK is working on the assumption that the big states tell the small states what to do, so they can override objections from smaller states (like Ireland) by appealing to the big states (like France and Germany). European commentators tend to view this as at best, a bit strange. The French find it downright insulting.

    I think it's more "we're important, take us seriously dammit".
    I'm honestly starting to think that the UK government does not understand that rest of EU does not really give a fuck about UK.

    mrondeautynicCommander ZoomElldrenFencingsaxSolar
  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    Also, still think that the real plan is to suck up to Trump and ask for foreign aid on the US.

  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    japan wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    Tories continue not to grasp that having UK crash and burn is, if not in EU's best interests, atleast in some ways advantageous.

    My feeling is that it's because the UK and the EU are not measuring the potential impact to the EU in the same way. The EU sees the damage to the integrity of the single market, and the amount of control that the UK proposals would involve it giving up, and consider those costs to be too great relative to the economic hit. The UK sees only the economic hit because it doesn't perceive the integrity of the single market as intrinsically valuable (or it wouldn't be leaving, obvs).

    There's a related issue (which is brought up a lot of you read Irish commentary) which is that the UK genuinely seems to have difficulty grasping that the EU27 really mean it when they say that the issues of a single member state are issues for the bloc as a whole. You can see this in the reaction to this tactic of individually approaching member state governments instead of the commission - the UK is working on the assumption that the big states tell the small states what to do, so they can override objections from smaller states (like Ireland) by appealing to the big states (like France and Germany). European commentators tend to view this as at best, a bit strange. The French find it downright insulting.

    I think it's more "we're important, take us seriously dammit".
    I'm honestly starting to think that the UK government does not understand that rest of EU does not really give a fuck about UK.
    That's a key element I see with the Brexiters: they seem to believe that other countries, such as Canada and the rest of the Commonwealth, care about the UK, and want deals with the UK because the UK is inherently important.

    In truth, we don't care. I'm significantly more interested in CETA and the future impact of CPTPP than with any deal with the UK.

    H3KnucklesElldrenFencingsaxhippofant
  • japanjapan Registered User regular
    It's not even that the deal has to be bad. I'm not fond of that framing of the issue because it feeds the Leave narrative that the EU is "punishing" the UK.

    It's simply that the EU only works at all because there is a system of rules, everyone agrees what they are, and everyone abides by them. The UK's proposals mean two things:
    - the EU would be outsourcing the security of its external border to a third country, with no legal recourse for the EU if it fails to do so satisfactorily (worth bearing in mind here that the EU dies not have a high opinion of the efficacy of the UK's border or customs controls)
    - the UK would be permitted access to the rules based system while exempting itself from the jurisdiction of the body that exists to enforce them

    These are huge, huge concessions that are being asked for, and it isn't an exaggeration to say that they render the whole system moot, because suddenly the EU has a participant that can do whatever it wants with no recourse, and that participant is also carrying out one of the key functions underpinning the system.

    It was a ludicrous proposal from the start.

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  • japanjapan Registered User regular
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    I think it's more "we're important, take us seriously dammit".
    I'm honestly starting to think that the UK government does not understand that rest of EU does not really give a fuck about UK.

    I think the EU does, because the UK is a large economy and that isn't nothing.

    It doesn't, however, give more of a fuck about it than any given member state, and that's where the disconnect is.

    PLAH3KnucklesRchanen
  • NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    edited August 2018
    japan wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    I think it's more "we're important, take us seriously dammit".
    I'm honestly starting to think that the UK government does not understand that rest of EU does not really give a fuck about UK.

    I think the EU does, because the UK is a large economy and that isn't nothing.

    It doesn't, however, give more of a fuck about it than any given member state, and that's where the disconnect is.

    Sure, but EU cares about UK, as far as it benefits EU.
    EU does not want to help UK if it hurts EU.
    And UK getting a deal that is better than being in EU, hurts EU.
    Having UK crash and burn hurts EU, but not necessarily as much as UK thriving.

    Nyysjan on
    PLA
  • V1mV1m Registered User regular
    PLA wrote: »
    Fox makes no apology for his no deal doom-mongering. “I think it’s essential that ‘no deal’ looks credible to the EU. If it’s causing some anxiety in Britain — think what it’s causing in Brussels,” he said.


    picardfacepalmmadeofpicardfacepalms.jpg

  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited August 2018
    A no deal Brexit is bad for the EU in the same way that my neighbor's house burning down is bad for me. Smoke damage, firefighters trampling through everything that will need to get replanted, increased insurance costs, &c. would be annoying to have to deal with.

    A no deal Brexit is bad for the UK because it means your house burned down.

    moniker on
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  • klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    A no deal Brexit is bad for the EU in the same way that my neighbor's house burning down is bad for me. Smoke damage, firefighters trampling through everything that will need to get replanted, increased insurance costs, &c. would be annoying to have to deal with.

    A no deal Brexit is bad for the UK because it means your house burned down.

    Yeah, but the important things is it'll be our house, and our neighbour won't have any claim on it because we shared the lawnmower.

    You've got to get your priorities straight.

    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
    Special K
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Shadowen wrote: »
    I'm afraid the Tories have fallen into the newest electoral and governance strategy being used by more and more conservatives all around the world: performative cruelty. It's fucking bonkers, but it works.

    "But you're cutting off your own nose!" rational people say.

    "Yeah, but my face will hate it," conservatives say.

    It's less that and more the perpetual right-wing party problem that a large chunk of their base are crazy stupid racists disconnected from reality and you end up having to cater to them at some point. And there's no way to do that and also make good policy.

    Fencingsax
  • PowerpuppiesPowerpuppies Registered User regular
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    japan wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    I think it's more "we're important, take us seriously dammit".
    I'm honestly starting to think that the UK government does not understand that rest of EU does not really give a fuck about UK.

    I think the EU does, because the UK is a large economy and that isn't nothing.

    It doesn't, however, give more of a fuck about it than any given member state, and that's where the disconnect is.

    Sure, but EU cares about UK, as far as it benefits EU.
    EU does not want to help UK if it hurts EU.
    And UK getting a deal that is better than being in EU, hurts EU.
    Having UK crash and burn hurts EU, but not necessarily as much as UK thriving.

    I just don't think you're right about this, and even if you were, none of the UK proposals are plausible enough that it would matter. I see the EU as wanting to reach the most beneficial agreement for the UK it can tolerate, and frustrated that the UK won't see that and only suggests dealbreakers. I don't think the EU is worried that other countries will exit if Britain gets a great deal that's compatible with the 4 and solves the Irish border problem

    sig.gif
    CasualElldrenmrondeauFencingsaxJazz
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    klemming wrote: »
    He said the EU had to decide whether to act in the economic best interests of its people, or to go on pursuing an approach determined by an obsession with the purity of its rules.

    *spit's coffee* Liam, my dude, you have this backwards. The UK needs the EU more than the EU needs the UK.

    Blasphemy!

    steam_sig.png
    Steam, Warframe: Megajoule
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    klemming wrote: »
    He said the EU had to decide whether to act in the economic best interests of its people, or to go on pursuing an approach determined by an obsession with the purity of its rules.

    *spit's coffee* Liam, my dude, you have this backwards. The UK needs the EU more than the EU needs the UK.

    Blasphemy!

    Not to the Church of Our Lady of Perpetual Unpatriotic Bremoaners it isn't

  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    I might have been a little pithy to Liam Fox in an email right now.

    Zilla360
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Subject: Your negotiation tactics with regards to the European Union

    Content:
    8jcmmgvm4pdj.jpg

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  • NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    japan wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    I think it's more "we're important, take us seriously dammit".
    I'm honestly starting to think that the UK government does not understand that rest of EU does not really give a fuck about UK.

    I think the EU does, because the UK is a large economy and that isn't nothing.

    It doesn't, however, give more of a fuck about it than any given member state, and that's where the disconnect is.

    Sure, but EU cares about UK, as far as it benefits EU.
    EU does not want to help UK if it hurts EU.
    And UK getting a deal that is better than being in EU, hurts EU.
    Having UK crash and burn hurts EU, but not necessarily as much as UK thriving.

    I just don't think you're right about this, and even if you were, none of the UK proposals are plausible enough that it would matter. I see the EU as wanting to reach the most beneficial agreement for the UK it can tolerate, and frustrated that the UK won't see that and only suggests dealbreakers. I don't think the EU is worried that other countries will exit if Britain gets a great deal that's compatible with the 4 and solves the Irish border problem
    As long as the deal is better than no deal for the EU.
    And a deal that is more beneficial than staying in would be worse than no deal for EU.

    There are movements to leave EU in other countries, it is not in EU's best interests to show that leaving might be a good idea.

    Rchanen
  • hippofanthippofant ティンク Registered User regular
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    japan wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    I think it's more "we're important, take us seriously dammit".
    I'm honestly starting to think that the UK government does not understand that rest of EU does not really give a fuck about UK.

    I think the EU does, because the UK is a large economy and that isn't nothing.

    It doesn't, however, give more of a fuck about it than any given member state, and that's where the disconnect is.

    Sure, but EU cares about UK, as far as it benefits EU.
    EU does not want to help UK if it hurts EU.
    And UK getting a deal that is better than being in EU, hurts EU.
    Having UK crash and burn hurts EU, but not necessarily as much as UK thriving.

    I just don't think you're right about this, and even if you were, none of the UK proposals are plausible enough that it would matter. I see the EU as wanting to reach the most beneficial agreement for the UK it can tolerate, and frustrated that the UK won't see that and only suggests dealbreakers. I don't think the EU is worried that other countries will exit if Britain gets a great deal that's compatible with the 4 and solves the Irish border problem

    Well now we'll never know, cuz the Tories are so dumb :tell_me_more:

    H3KnucklesZilla360
  • JepheryJephery Registered User regular
    edited August 2018
    I'm not sure why the Tories are bothering with leaving the EU when Poland, Hungary, and Italy show that you can pretty much do whatever you want in the EU either way.

    The enforcement power of the EU against rules breaking governments seems nonexistent at this point.

    If the Tories stayed in the EU and aligned with the growing mass of illiberal states in the EU they'd be much more effective in their goals.

    Jephery on
    }
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  • CroakerBCCroakerBC YorkRegistered User regular
    hippofant wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    japan wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    I think it's more "we're important, take us seriously dammit".
    I'm honestly starting to think that the UK government does not understand that rest of EU does not really give a fuck about UK.

    I think the EU does, because the UK is a large economy and that isn't nothing.

    It doesn't, however, give more of a fuck about it than any given member state, and that's where the disconnect is.

    Sure, but EU cares about UK, as far as it benefits EU.
    EU does not want to help UK if it hurts EU.
    And UK getting a deal that is better than being in EU, hurts EU.
    Having UK crash and burn hurts EU, but not necessarily as much as UK thriving.

    I just don't think you're right about this, and even if you were, none of the UK proposals are plausible enough that it would matter. I see the EU as wanting to reach the most beneficial agreement for the UK it can tolerate, and frustrated that the UK won't see that and only suggests dealbreakers. I don't think the EU is worried that other countries will exit if Britain gets a great deal that's compatible with the 4 and solves the Irish border problem

    Well now we'll never know, cuz the Tories are so dumb :tell_me_more:

    I imagine watching our slow-motion eight lane car crash of an exit has done a bit for the cause of European integration, really...

    JazzNyysjanH3Knuckles
  • PowerpuppiesPowerpuppies Registered User regular
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    japan wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    I think it's more "we're important, take us seriously dammit".
    I'm honestly starting to think that the UK government does not understand that rest of EU does not really give a fuck about UK.

    I think the EU does, because the UK is a large economy and that isn't nothing.

    It doesn't, however, give more of a fuck about it than any given member state, and that's where the disconnect is.

    Sure, but EU cares about UK, as far as it benefits EU.
    EU does not want to help UK if it hurts EU.
    And UK getting a deal that is better than being in EU, hurts EU.
    Having UK crash and burn hurts EU, but not necessarily as much as UK thriving.

    I just don't think you're right about this, and even if you were, none of the UK proposals are plausible enough that it would matter. I see the EU as wanting to reach the most beneficial agreement for the UK it can tolerate, and frustrated that the UK won't see that and only suggests dealbreakers. I don't think the EU is worried that other countries will exit if Britain gets a great deal that's compatible with the 4 and solves the Irish border problem
    As long as the deal is better than no deal for the EU.
    And a deal that is more beneficial than staying in would be worse than no deal for EU.

    There are movements to leave EU in other countries, it is not in EU's best interests to show that leaving might be a good idea.

    I don't think that's a motivating factor and moreover I don't know what you mean by something being better than in the EU. What would that look like? Is there an example deal you think the EU would otherwise take but wouldn't consider for fear of encouraging other countries preaching?

    sig.gif
  • SanderJKSanderJK Crocodylus Pontifex Sinterklasicus Madrid, 3000 ADRegistered User regular
    The EU will clearly not take any deal where the UK retains the thing it wants (Frictionless trade) without the price for that all EU members pay (Adherence to EU rules, payment into EU projects, Freedom of Travel and Work). Such an outcome is worse for the EU than No Deal, because it loses a ton of things compared to the Status Quo and gains a ton of internal turmoil.

    If it becomes known that such deals are possible, the next Dutch election will all be about leaving the EU too. And the next Italian one. And maybe the French, and maybe the German.

    Such a deal cannot exist. The price of loss of GDP for a WTO Brexit is far smaller.

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  • NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    edited August 2018
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    japan wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    I think it's more "we're important, take us seriously dammit".
    I'm honestly starting to think that the UK government does not understand that rest of EU does not really give a fuck about UK.

    I think the EU does, because the UK is a large economy and that isn't nothing.

    It doesn't, however, give more of a fuck about it than any given member state, and that's where the disconnect is.

    Sure, but EU cares about UK, as far as it benefits EU.
    EU does not want to help UK if it hurts EU.
    And UK getting a deal that is better than being in EU, hurts EU.
    Having UK crash and burn hurts EU, but not necessarily as much as UK thriving.

    I just don't think you're right about this, and even if you were, none of the UK proposals are plausible enough that it would matter. I see the EU as wanting to reach the most beneficial agreement for the UK it can tolerate, and frustrated that the UK won't see that and only suggests dealbreakers. I don't think the EU is worried that other countries will exit if Britain gets a great deal that's compatible with the 4 and solves the Irish border problem
    As long as the deal is better than no deal for the EU.
    And a deal that is more beneficial than staying in would be worse than no deal for EU.

    There are movements to leave EU in other countries, it is not in EU's best interests to show that leaving might be a good idea.

    I don't think that's a motivating factor and moreover I don't know what you mean by something being better than in the EU. What would that look like? Is there an example deal you think the EU would otherwise take but wouldn't consider for fear of encouraging other countries preaching?
    UK has pretty consistently wanted to get all the benefits of EU (like common market), without the downsides (as they see them, like freedom of movement).
    And i can't think of any actual deals that EU would give to UK that would be better than just being a member.
    Why would they?
    But that's what UK seems to want.

    Nyysjan on
    FencingsaxH3KnucklesShadowhopePLAmrondeau
  • PowerpuppiesPowerpuppies Registered User regular
    okay so i think i get what you're saying

    seems to dovetail nicely with the EU not being willing to tolerate an irish border problem or separating the four freedoms

    they're happy to offer the best deal that is actually mutually beneficial but they're not willing to entertain nonsense that would be only to their detriment

    sig.gif
    Rchanen
  • tynictynic PICNIC BADASS Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Jephery wrote: »
    I'm not sure why the Tories are bothering with leaving the EU when Poland, Hungary, and Italy show that you can pretty much do whatever you want in the EU either way.

    The enforcement power of the EU against rules breaking governments seems nonexistent at this point.

    If the Tories stayed in the EU and aligned with the growing mass of illiberal states in the EU they'd be much more effective in their goals.

    The UK pretty much always did what they wanted in the EU anyway. It just provided a convenient scapegoat for any Tory policies that were unpopular with their base. This whole mess is basically those chickens coming home to roost in a big way.

    Much as I might disagree with their strategy, the Labour anti-EU movement has a much stronger and more coherent ideological argument. Still terrible for Britain/NI, of course.

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  • Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    tynic wrote: »
    Jephery wrote: »
    I'm not sure why the Tories are bothering with leaving the EU when Poland, Hungary, and Italy show that you can pretty much do whatever you want in the EU either way.

    The enforcement power of the EU against rules breaking governments seems nonexistent at this point.

    If the Tories stayed in the EU and aligned with the growing mass of illiberal states in the EU they'd be much more effective in their goals.

    The UK pretty much always did what they wanted in the EU anyway. It just provided a convenient scapegoat for any Tory policies that were unpopular with their base. This whole mess is basically those chickens coming home to roost in a big way.

    Much as I might disagree with their strategy, the Labour anti-EU movement has a much stronger and more coherent ideological argument. Still terrible for Britain/NI, of course.

    Blame Brussels has been the UKs no. 1 excuse for any shit since the late sixties.

    There isn't a living tory politician that hasn't built is entire career on railing against Brussels. Certainly no one outside the House of Lords.

    Communicating from the last of the Babylon Stations.
    tynicRchanenH3Knuckles
  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    Jephery wrote: »
    I'm not sure why the Tories are bothering with leaving the EU when Poland, Hungary, and Italy show that you can pretty much do whatever you want in the EU either way.

    The enforcement power of the EU against rules breaking governments seems nonexistent at this point.

    If the Tories stayed in the EU and aligned with the growing mass of illiberal states in the EU they'd be much more effective in their goals.

    Yep. Hell, at this point if I was PM Boris Johnson and had his goals, I would just end freedom of movement by force and dare the EU to do something about it.

    V1m
  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    Precedent aside, why would you give them more than anybody else for less than anybody else?

  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    Jephery wrote: »
    I'm not sure why the Tories are bothering with leaving the EU when Poland, Hungary, and Italy show that you can pretty much do whatever you want in the EU either way.

    The enforcement power of the EU against rules breaking governments seems nonexistent at this point.

    If the Tories stayed in the EU and aligned with the growing mass of illiberal states in the EU they'd be much more effective in their goals.

    Yep. Hell, at this point if I was PM Boris Johnson and had his goals, I would just end freedom of movement by force and dare the EU to do something about it.

    Isn’t this what Italy is already doing at this very moment?

    tynicJepheryRchanenSkeithLabelEdith Upwards
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