[US Foreign Policy] A Generation of War

moniker

A new thread to discuss what amounts to our supposed policies to foreign nations.

Previously on The Earth:
President Trump leaves Vietnam early for reasons unrelated to pulling an all nighter to live tweet his indicted co-conspirator's Congressional testimony.
We are closing the Palestinian Consulate and running relations out of a Section desk at the Israeli embassy in Jerusalem.
South America continues to have America in it.

Also: Tariffs? No war but the trade war. But also, maybe actual war.


What will happen next?


*************
Official prevention of cross contamination post.
*************

The Russian investigation, and related issues: Mueller Russian Investigation Thread
Sundry other corrupt practices: The numerous other Trump investigation threads.
General Middle East goings on: The Middle East Thread
Canada specific things and what even is cheese? : Canada Thread
BREXIT: Hiberno-Brittania thread
Venezuela? : South America Thread
Trump immigration policy, Muslim ban and beyond: Immigration Policy Thread
Firings and Hirings of Senior Government positions: Trump Cabinet Thread

*************

Viskod

I forget. What did we get for this?

https://twitter.com/NBCPolitics/status/1101537429423562752

NBC NewsExclusive: US military is preparing to announce that annual large-scale joint exercises conducted with South Korea every spring will no longer be held, according to two US defense officials.

Even if South Korea wants to be low key anyway, we were just at a Summit. Seems like we could have gotten a little concession for it.

But now it’s coming right after Trump stormed out in a huff being all “No Deal!”

...No deal, but here’s a little concession from us anyway.

Seal

Viskod wrote: »

I forget. What did we get for this?

https://twitter.com/NBCPolitics/status/1101537429423562752

NBC NewsExclusive: US military is preparing to announce that annual large-scale joint exercises conducted with South Korea every spring will no longer be held, according to two US defense officials.

Even if South Korea wants to be low key anyway, we were just at a Summit. Seems like we could have gotten a little concession for it.

But now it’s coming right after Trump stormed out in a huff being all “No Deal!”

...No deal, but here’s a little concession from us anyway.

Great photos with known cool guy Kim Jong-Un, he even shook the presidents hand.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Scooter

I wonder if they were planning to announce it as part of the summit and use it for cover, act like it was part of some big deal, but them Trump left early and they were just, welp, guess we're rolling with it.

I N V I C T U S

Might be useful to South Korea's continued negotiations. What was the US actually getting out of it besides a reassertment of its own strength?

Fencingsax

I N V I C T U S wrote: »

Might be useful to South Korea's continued negotiations. What was the US actually getting out of it besides a reassertment of its own strength?

Being able to flawlessly interface with an ally's military in times of crisis is extremely important. Logistics wins wars.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Elldren

MorganV wrote: »

Fencingsax wrote: »

I N V I C T U S wrote: »

Might be useful to South Korea's continued negotiations. What was the US actually getting out of it besides a reassertment of its own strength?

Being able to flawlessly interface with an ally's military in times of crisis is extremely important. Logistics wins wars.

This can't be overstated. I don’t have the exact numbers (at work, on phone), but an intolerable number of friendly fatalities in joint forces conflicts are due to failed integration.

From improper IFF identification, to lack of knowledge of movement, to poor joint planning, to consistency or knowledge of standard practices.

Stuff that military exercises like the ones cancelled, are designed to mitigate.

Yeah. Joint operations like that don’t so much improve the chances of the allies winning a war on the Korean Peninsula as reduce the cost in lives and materiel. On both sides of the conflict and both military and civilians. It’s a pretty callous move.

Viskod

State Department officials confirm North Koreas version of events is more trustworthy than that of the President of the United States.

They asked for a lot, but they did not technically ask for "all sanctions" be removed.

But he acknowledged the North’s demand was only for Washington to back the lifting of United Nations Security Council sanctions imposed since March 2016 and didn’t include the other resolutions going back a decade more.

And here's the dumbest part.

It also didn’t come as a surprise. He said the North had been pushing that demand for weeks in lower-level talks.

They went to the summit, knowing for weeks that this is exactly what North Korea was going to demand, because its the same thing they've been wanting in all the talks leading up to this summit. So its possible that the Trump Administration knew ahead of time that the plan was to just leave abruptly and take a big shit on all of Vietnams efforts to host and cater to both leaders.

It also... makes the concession of the military training exercises even more baffling.

DoctorArch

So Trump was totally being a big poopy baby because Cohen hurt his feelings and that's why he walked out of the summit.

Great. Fucking great. I hate living in interesting times.

BlackDragon480

DoctorArch wrote: »

So Trump was totally being a big poopy baby because Cohen hurt his feelings and that's why he walked out of the summit.

Great. Fucking great. I hate living in interesting times.

We passed "interesting times" in about August of 2017. Ever since Charlottesville, reality in the US is best described by the late George Carlin as "Mongolian Clusterfuck".

And at this point can we just get the interns and IT team at the State Department to take over the actual tasks of diplomacy? Seemingly ever higher level functionary from Pompeo down to section/regional leads couldn't find their ass with a map, flashlight, and a GPS navigator.

moniker

I'm pretty sure the cessation of joint training exercises is a holdover from the first summit. Which we got for a handshake photograph and the remains of some war dead. Not something new.

Viskod

moniker wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the cessation of joint training exercises is a holdover from the first summit. Which we got for a handshake photograph and the remains of some war dead. Not something new.

We cancelled some then, but I remember the US going back on that and saying they would resume.

Mayabird

Trump may also have been a big poopy baby because his supposed nomination for the Nobel Peace Prize was actually forged. Twice. And the Nobel Committee not just called it out but reported it to the FBI for investigation. So that's one more international embarrassment on top of all the others.

Fencingsax

Mayabird wrote: »

Trump may also have been a big poopy baby because his supposed nomination for the Nobel Peace Prize was actually forged. Twice. And the Nobel Committee not just called it out but reported it to the FBI for investigation. So that's one more international embarrassment on top of all the others.

Trump submitted it and signed Abe's name, didn't he?

Viskod

Japan submitted one, but only because the United States told them to.

Kaputa

Viskod wrote: »

moniker wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the cessation of joint training exercises is a holdover from the first summit. Which we got for a handshake photograph and the remains of some war dead. Not something new.

We cancelled some then, but I remember the US going back on that and saying they would resume.

My impression was that the exercises were then postponed or put on hiatus but not cancelled, so this would be a step further.

I'm not upset at the cancellation of the exercises, but I am facepalming at the predictably incompetent Trump diplomacy. It's really all up to Moon and Kim (are those the right one-name references?) to make any progress here.

Fencingsax

Viskod wrote: »

Japan submitted one, but only because the United States told them to.

The Nobel committee just announced the nomination was forged.

Viskod

Well that's new then, because https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/02/17/national/politics-diplomacy/abe-nominated-trump-nobel-peace-prize-request-u-s-report-says/#.XHrD-IhKiUk

Prime Minister Shinzo Abe nominated U.S. President Donald Trump for the Nobel Peace Prize last autumn after receiving a request from the U.S. government to do so, the Asahi newspaper reported Sunday.

The report follows Trump’s claim Friday that Abe had nominated him for the Nobel Peace Prize for opening talks and easing tensions with North Korea.

The Japanese leader had given him “the most beautiful copy” of a five-page nomination letter, Trump said at a White House news conference.

Diplominator

Viskod wrote: »

Well that's new then, because https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/02/17/national/politics-diplomacy/abe-nominated-trump-nobel-peace-prize-request-u-s-report-says/#.XHrD-IhKiUk

Prime Minister Shinzo Abe nominated U.S. President Donald Trump for the Nobel Peace Prize last autumn after receiving a request from the U.S. government to do so, the Asahi newspaper reported Sunday.

The report follows Trump’s claim Friday that Abe had nominated him for the Nobel Peace Prize for opening talks and easing tensions with North Korea.

The Japanese leader had given him “the most beautiful copy” of a five-page nomination letter, Trump said at a White House news conference.

Wait, so Abe hasn't said that it's valid? We only have President Trump's account to go on?

That is...gonna be fascinating.

rahkeesh2000

Fencingsax wrote: »

Viskod wrote: »

Japan submitted one, but only because the United States told them to.

The Nobel committee just announced the nomination was forged.

There were TWO forged nominations ostensibly from the U.S., one last year and another this year, and nothing has been said linking them to Japan or Abe.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-forged-nobel-nomination_us_5a988410e4b0a0ba4ad18d44

cckerberos

Fencingsax wrote: »

Viskod wrote: »

Japan submitted one, but only because the United States told them to.

The Nobel committee just announced the nomination was forged.

They announced that a nomination was forged. We don't know what relation, if any, that has with the Japanese nomination that has been reported on.

Gaddez

What a time to be alive when we can't confirm how many forged nominations are out there for the president of the united states.

Besides that: what exactly has trump done to further the cause of peace? He's effectively given Hamas and other organizations like it zero reason to trust the united states or pursue diplomacy, Africa and south america have strained relationships at best with the US due to his lack of message discipline, NATO is strained, Russia is spreading it's inflence primarily by destabilizing the rest of the world and NK is only halting their nuclear program because of structural instability.

Like, if there was an award for the stellar opposite of the Nobel peace prize he'd be a sure fire winner for that.

Commander Zoom

But Obama got one(*), so....

(* almost purely on the basis of Not Being W, it must be admitted. And now Trump has gone and set a whole new standard in Being Terrible At Diplomacy.)

Santa Claustrophobia

Viskod wrote: »

State Department officials confirm North Koreas version of events is more trustworthy than that of the President of the United States.

They asked for a lot, but they did not technically ask for "all sanctions" be removed.

But he acknowledged the North’s demand was only for Washington to back the lifting of United Nations Security Council sanctions imposed since March 2016 and didn’t include the other resolutions going back a decade more.

And here's the dumbest part.

It also didn’t come as a surprise. He said the North had been pushing that demand for weeks in lower-level talks.

They went to the summit, knowing for weeks that this is exactly what North Korea was going to demand, because its the same thing they've been wanting in all the talks leading up to this summit. So its possible that the Trump Administration knew ahead of time that the plan was to just leave abruptly and take a big shit on all of Vietnams efforts to host and cater to both leaders.

It also... makes the concession of the military training exercises even more baffling.

But wait...there's more!

In a dinner at the Metropole Hotel the evening before, [...] Mr. Kim had resisted what Mr. Trump presented as a grand bargain: North Korea would trade all its nuclear weapons, material and facilities for an end to the American-led sanctions squeezing its economy.

An American official later described this as “a proposal to go big,” a bet by Mr. Trump that his force of personality, and view of himself as a consummate dealmaker, would succeed where three previous presidents had failed.

But Mr. Trump’s offer was essentially the same deal that the United States has pushed — and the North has rejected — for a quarter century. Intelligence agencies had warned him, publicly, Mr. Kim would not be willing to give up the arsenal completely. North Korea itself had said repeatedly that it would only move gradually.

Several of Mr. Trump’s own aides, led by national security adviser John R. Bolton and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, thought the chances of a grand bargain for total nuclear disarmament were virtually zero. Some questioned whether the summit meeting should go forward.

Mr. Trump disagreed. He had taken to showing what he called Mr. Kim’s “beautiful letters” to visitors to the Oval Office, as evidence he had built a rapport with one of the world’s most brutal dictators. While some in the White House worried Mr. Trump was being played, the president seemed entranced — even declaring “we fell in love.”

Christ, what an ignorant asshole.

Gaddez

Santa Claustrophobia wrote: »

Viskod wrote: »

State Department officials confirm North Koreas version of events is more trustworthy than that of the President of the United States.

They asked for a lot, but they did not technically ask for "all sanctions" be removed.

But he acknowledged the North’s demand was only for Washington to back the lifting of United Nations Security Council sanctions imposed since March 2016 and didn’t include the other resolutions going back a decade more.

And here's the dumbest part.

It also didn’t come as a surprise. He said the North had been pushing that demand for weeks in lower-level talks.

They went to the summit, knowing for weeks that this is exactly what North Korea was going to demand, because its the same thing they've been wanting in all the talks leading up to this summit. So its possible that the Trump Administration knew ahead of time that the plan was to just leave abruptly and take a big shit on all of Vietnams efforts to host and cater to both leaders.

It also... makes the concession of the military training exercises even more baffling.

But wait...there's more!

In a dinner at the Metropole Hotel the evening before, [...] Mr. Kim had resisted what Mr. Trump presented as a grand bargain: North Korea would trade all its nuclear weapons, material and facilities for an end to the American-led sanctions squeezing its economy.

An American official later described this as “a proposal to go big,” a bet by Mr. Trump that his force of personality, and view of himself as a consummate dealmaker, would succeed where three previous presidents had failed.

But Mr. Trump’s offer was essentially the same deal that the United States has pushed — and the North has rejected — for a quarter century. Intelligence agencies had warned him, publicly, Mr. Kim would not be willing to give up the arsenal completely. North Korea itself had said repeatedly that it would only move gradually.

Several of Mr. Trump’s own aides, led by national security adviser John R. Bolton and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, thought the chances of a grand bargain for total nuclear disarmament were virtually zero. Some questioned whether the summit meeting should go forward.

Mr. Trump disagreed. He had taken to showing what he called Mr. Kim’s “beautiful letters” to visitors to the Oval Office, as evidence he had built a rapport with one of the world’s most brutal dictators. While some in the White House worried Mr. Trump was being played, the president seemed entranced — even declaring “we fell in love.”

Christ, what an ignorant asshole.

It really is amazing that this man has gotten as far in life as he has considering how utterly narcissistic he is; Like for christ's sake, he's like a kid on christmas morning anytime some third rate autocrat gives him a pat on the head and actively defends their motivations for praising him from people who've made a living out of studying them.

Viskod

Holy Fuck. That’s it.

It wasn’t Cohen.
It wasn’t that North Korea was asking for what they had been asking for.

It was because Trumps fragile little ego was hurt that his “grand bargain” was rebuffed.

So he threw a tantrum and left immediately.

JaysonFour

...there are not enough facepalm gifs on the internet.

The master negotiator is in reality a little whiny manchild who gives up on something after the slightest bit of resistance from anyone who actually matters. He tried to serve the same thing we've been trying to get the North to take for years and years and Un refuses, and Trump just bails on the whole thing and looks like an angry toddler who's pissed he didn't get to stick a fork in the outlet even though he was such a good boy and did everything he thought he was supposed to. And now we can see we've given up so much for absolutely nothing of substance or value from the NKs.

The best people.

Fencingsax

Viskod wrote: »

Holy Fuck. That’s it.

It wasn’t Cohen.
It wasn’t that North Korea was asking for what they had been asking for.

It was because Trumps fragile little ego was hurt that his “grand bargain” was rebuffed.

So he threw a tantrum and left immediately.

The Grand Negotiator

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Couscous

Saudi Arabia tortured an American citizen.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/02/world/middleeast/saudi-arabia-torture-american-citizen.html

A dual citizen of Saudi Arabia and the United States had been imprisoned in the Ritz Carlton in Riyadh for about a week when he heard a knock on his door.

Guards dragged Walid Fitaihi, a Harvard-trained physician, to another room, according to a friend who took down the prisoner’s detailed account of his treatment. Dr. Fitaihi told the friend he was slapped, blindfolded, stripped to his underwear and bound to a chair. He was shocked with electricity in what appears to have been a single session of torture that lasted about an hour.

Detained in November 2017 in what was billed as a crackdown on corruption, Dr. Fitaihi, 54, remains imprisoned without any public charges or trial. About 200 prominent Saudis were detained with him, and he is one of dozens who remain in prison.

It is depressing this probably won't move the needle when it comes to relations with Saudi Arabia.

Javen

Gaddez wrote: »

Santa Claustrophobia wrote: »

Viskod wrote: »

State Department officials confirm North Koreas version of events is more trustworthy than that of the President of the United States.

They asked for a lot, but they did not technically ask for "all sanctions" be removed.

But he acknowledged the North’s demand was only for Washington to back the lifting of United Nations Security Council sanctions imposed since March 2016 and didn’t include the other resolutions going back a decade more.

And here's the dumbest part.

It also didn’t come as a surprise. He said the North had been pushing that demand for weeks in lower-level talks.

They went to the summit, knowing for weeks that this is exactly what North Korea was going to demand, because its the same thing they've been wanting in all the talks leading up to this summit. So its possible that the Trump Administration knew ahead of time that the plan was to just leave abruptly and take a big shit on all of Vietnams efforts to host and cater to both leaders.

It also... makes the concession of the military training exercises even more baffling.

But wait...there's more!

In a dinner at the Metropole Hotel the evening before, [...] Mr. Kim had resisted what Mr. Trump presented as a grand bargain: North Korea would trade all its nuclear weapons, material and facilities for an end to the American-led sanctions squeezing its economy.

An American official later described this as “a proposal to go big,” a bet by Mr. Trump that his force of personality, and view of himself as a consummate dealmaker, would succeed where three previous presidents had failed.

But Mr. Trump’s offer was essentially the same deal that the United States has pushed — and the North has rejected — for a quarter century. Intelligence agencies had warned him, publicly, Mr. Kim would not be willing to give up the arsenal completely. North Korea itself had said repeatedly that it would only move gradually.

Several of Mr. Trump’s own aides, led by national security adviser John R. Bolton and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, thought the chances of a grand bargain for total nuclear disarmament were virtually zero. Some questioned whether the summit meeting should go forward.

Mr. Trump disagreed. He had taken to showing what he called Mr. Kim’s “beautiful letters” to visitors to the Oval Office, as evidence he had built a rapport with one of the world’s most brutal dictators. While some in the White House worried Mr. Trump was being played, the president seemed entranced — even declaring “we fell in love.”

Christ, what an ignorant asshole.

It really is amazing that this man has gotten as far in life as he has considering how utterly narcissistic he is; Like for christ's sake, he's like a kid on christmas morning anytime some third rate autocrat gives him a pat on the head and actively defends their motivations for praising him from people who've made a living out of studying them.

When you're born rich, you can quite literally afford to be narcissistic.

ElJeffe

An American official later described this as “a proposal to go big,” a bet by Mr. Trump that his force of personality, and view of himself as a consummate dealmaker, would succeed where three previous presidents had failed.

Anyone viewing Trump as a "consummate dealmaker" would have to have binge watched a couple seasons of The Apprentice and then completely slept through the past two years.

Elldren

ElJeffe wrote: »

An American official later described this as “a proposal to go big,” a bet by Mr. Trump that his force of personality, and view of himself as a consummate dealmaker, would succeed where three previous presidents had failed.

But Mr. Trump’s offer was essentially the

Anyone viewing Trump as a "consummate dealmaker" would have to have binge watched a couple seasons of The Apprentice and then completely slept through the past two years.

And the 20 preceding the apprentice

Fencingsax

ElJeffe wrote: »

An American official later described this as “a proposal to go big,” a bet by Mr. Trump that his force of personality, and view of himself as a consummate dealmaker, would succeed where three previous presidents had failed.

Anyone viewing Trump as a "consummate dealmaker" would have to have binge watched a couple seasons of The Apprentice and then completely slept through the past two years.

I'm pretty sure the only pne that sees Donald Trump as a dealmaker are 1)Donald Trump and 2)John Barron

Commander Zoom

No, a lot of his dedicated followers have bought into the same illusion. Part of why they elected him. He'll make so many great deals!

moniker

ElJeffe wrote: »

An American official later described this as “a proposal to go big,” a bet by Mr. Trump that his force of personality, and view of himself as a consummate dealmaker, would succeed where three previous presidents had failed.

Anyone viewing Trump as a "consummate dealmaker" would have to have binge watched a couple seasons of The Apprentice and then completely slept through the past two years.

Maybe he was hoping North Korea didn't bother to read up on him, just like he didn't bother to read up on them?

Nobeard

Commander Zoom wrote: »

No, a lot of his dedicated followers have bought into the same illusion. Part of why they elected him. He'll make so many great deals!

And that comes from our cultural fetishizing of businessmen. Trump has a has a hucksters instinct to tap into archetypes and stereotypes.

For a person to keep believing in "Trump the Dealmaker" they have to ignore pretty much all reality. His Korean summit is clearly a pitiful failure, but his followers won't care.

Mayabird

Again, it's bully mentality. Bullies are easily pushed around when a bigger bully arrives. Note Chris Christie, noted New Jersey asshole and bully, being constantly mocked and dicked around by Trump for over two years while Christie sucked it up and begged for more. Trump is an alpha bully to small town hick bullies, so they kneel to him. The likes of Kim, Putin, and MBS are super-alpha bullies, so Trump kowtows to them, and his base thus kowtows in return.

The power of a bully only comes from punching down. Trump was a "dealmaker" because he pushed around small contractors and renters who couldn't fight back. That's their idea of power and deals.