KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
Skewer can be decent if you have a use for the food and/or flyers that need beefing up. I can see it working well with all those Tome Raiders and the Cat/Animating Faerie.
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
I wouldn't play it normally but with four Tomb Raider it's gonna do work.
My opinion is that it's clear that Golos field is a beatable deck, as evidenced by the fact it only had one entry into the top 8 out of a nearly 50% play rate, but that it's obviously warping the entire meta around it like a black hole when you look at the other top 8 decks.
Both Bant non-field decks are running maindeck deputy of detention almost solely for Bant field and not using the white splash anywhere else. Gruul Aggro is maindecking nine 2-mana ways to kill a Gilded Goose and running Embercleaves solely to explosively get under field with a creature suite with a lot of evasion from field decks. Simic Food is running disdainful stroke mainboard in an environment with Oko and T3feri entirely because it cripples field cheaply. Mardu Knights is a weird list, but it also looks like a list that's primarily relying on the low-interaction of field to guarantee a Rotting Regisaur into Embercleave curve to win. Even mono-red is maindecking Tibalt over Chandra as what I have to assume is a concession to the possibility of Archway Angel or big Krasis plus punching through slightly better with Torbran.
Every deck that made the top 8 besides field is either dedicating sideboard slots to mainboard hate for Golos decks, or is running an Embercleave combination that would fold to any decks running removal but gets under field.
it may not have been prevalent in that top 8 but it was still massive as a whole at the event and like @milski said is warping deck construction pretty hard as a result to deal with it
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+2
PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
I would be completely shocked if standard lands isn't killed tomorrow somehow
it's also pretty likely that Oko gets taken out back too
Oko feels unlikely to eat a ban, so if they hit the Oko decks I feel like Nissa is the obvious choice since she acts as both a great payoff for any ramp they print into standard and a great enabler for any big-mana strategies they print into standard. Krasis seems unlikely.
i really dont think oko is a problem, they're not likely to ban a brand new card this close after release when he isn't format warping, just really good
every time I see people say or post articles about banning things besides field I go "yes ok ban all the good things, got it"
Daebunz on
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
i really dont think oko is a problem, they're not likely to ban a brand new card this close after release when he isn't format warping, just really good
I don't know personally(and think they should wait a bit before consideration) but LSV is a whole lot better at this than all of us
I mean he even says at the end of the video he doesnt think oko is getting banned
I dont disagree that the card leads to some feelbads and is obnoxious but is it getting banned tomorrow probably not
if this keeps up till next B&R? maybe
also I dont need to be LSV to have a pretty good idea of what is or is not ban worthy/format warping in a format I've played almost exclusively for over a decade
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
I'm mostly just in favor of more aggressive bannings ( at least on arena to test)
i'm not because thats a slippery slope of people wanting all good cards they dont like losing to banned almost guaranteed
it would also piss off basically every player who bought the card because the set only just came out a few weeks ago and that is not enough time to make that sort of call when its not clear yet how thats going to play out
Daebunz on
+2
PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
people already clamor for cards they lose to being banned, that's not anything new
and I said arena bannings, which is a very good data collection method
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
(also destroy the secondary market)
+1
KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
I think Oko is powerful enough to deserve a ban, particularly if Golos/FotD gets it. The most powerful argument against Oko getting banned is that he's the face of the new set. It's probably one of the reasons he got pushed to be so powerful; it's bad marketing to have the guy on the box be a stinky card nobody wants to play, and it's probably worse to have him banned. When Saheeli/Felidar Guardian slipped by them in Kaladesh, no one was surprised when Felidar got the chop instead of Saheeli because she was a cover-card.
I'm not sure what the alternative here is; maybe this winning Gruul deck will be good enough to keep Oko in check? I haven't paid much attention, it seems like it was mostly aimed at beating Golos.
i mean felidar got the chop because saheeli wasnt busted in any real way when felidar was an oopsie and it would have impacted other cool decks trying to use her, so why would that have even been a consideration in that banning. it had 0 to do with her being on the box. you ban the card that other decks wont miss/wont get caught in the crossfire for, not the one not actually doing anything wrong
i think you give it till next B&R to think about doing something about oko. if he's still everywhere and standard sucks ass because nobody wants to play interesting cards that get turned into elks and its zero fun then sure, ban it
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The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
edited October 2019
Felidar would have been more useful by itself than Saheeli, she was stone unplayable in that format without oops otk
i really dont think oko is a problem, they're not likely to ban a brand new card this close after release when he isn't format warping, just really good
every time I see people say or post articles about banning things besides field I go "yes ok ban all the good things, got it"
I haven’t done enough looking but it seems like there being a ton of that deck at the event and very few top eights seems like a sign that people overestimated It’s strength?
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
i really dont think oko is a problem, they're not likely to ban a brand new card this close after release when he isn't format warping, just really good
every time I see people say or post articles about banning things besides field I go "yes ok ban all the good things, got it"
I haven’t done enough looking but it seems like there being a ton of that deck at the event and very few top eights seems like a sign that people overestimated It’s strength?
It seems moreso that the vast majority of decks were golos and all top 8 decks mainboarded things to specifically hate on golos to the detriment of the deck in most of its matchups.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Oko was in about half of the top 8 decks, and as I noted above, Field was teched against to a truly absurd degree in a way that makes the pure results a bit harder to read than just "it's not actually that good."
Like, a format where people mainboard Disdainful Stroke is a sign something went very wrong
i assume you're talking golos since there was still a lot of oko in that top 8?
the fact that the decks beating golos played some dubious shit in order to do so, with its % of the meta, still proves that deck is likely a problem as people either played it or warped their deck to beat it
i dont think oko is at that point yet but he does cause a lot of cool splashy cards to just be bad options if they get turned into elks thus limiting what one can get away with playing, and is in a color combo featuring a lot of powerful cards that I dont think are problems on their own but by their powers combined, in the same format together, is annoying
Oko is a powerful and format warping card in the same way that the last two teferis have been, in that his power level is nuts and the ways you can deal with them are actually pretty limited, but they probably won't get banned because wotc determines they're okay format pillars
So planes walkers are just almost explicitly a pack selling device right? They keep making ones that turn off the game. Oko takes away interesting creatures (and dodges fry, of all things). And fucking teferi turns off instants. Teferi says "you play magic while your opponent plays hearthstone for a bit" it's bonkers at 3 Mana. And has a useful bounce!
Not at all. It was still crazy prevalent and still managed to fill up 9-16 despite the decks that beat it being brought in specifically built to play against it because those players knew the field would have so many of those decks. And still one made it through to the top 8 as well.
Plus the main thing that makes it so unfun imo is how it plays out the same every game. It never feels like a deck with variations due to how well it grabs what it needs every game. And you either kill them before they get the same pieces they just gather up or you lose.
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Nice to see that, despite everything, WOTC isn't just stabbing one of their big players on the back for Yuans. It sucks that the bar is set so low, but that can't be helped.
I'm not sure what the alternative here is; maybe this winning Gruul deck will be good enough to keep Oko in check? I haven't paid much attention, it seems like it was mostly aimed at beating Golos.
Pretty sure Javier was lucky to get past the Oko decks he ran into. His deck had better game against it than the other two aggro decks (+1/+1 counters neuter Oko's Elk ability) but the other two Gruul Aggro players in the event 0-4d day one thanks to not being so lucky (plus not having the reigning World Champion piloting them, probably).
Also worth noting that Javier barely made both cuts. 10 4-3s made Day 2 (Javier was 23rd/24 that advanced), and he was the only Day 2 4-3 to make Top 8. Swiss was hostile to this deck.
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How did Giant's Skewer play out for you? I've been avoiding it in non-aggro decks, but curious.
Does his list include Fervent Champion?
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Both Bant non-field decks are running maindeck deputy of detention almost solely for Bant field and not using the white splash anywhere else. Gruul Aggro is maindecking nine 2-mana ways to kill a Gilded Goose and running Embercleaves solely to explosively get under field with a creature suite with a lot of evasion from field decks. Simic Food is running disdainful stroke mainboard in an environment with Oko and T3feri entirely because it cripples field cheaply. Mardu Knights is a weird list, but it also looks like a list that's primarily relying on the low-interaction of field to guarantee a Rotting Regisaur into Embercleave curve to win. Even mono-red is maindecking Tibalt over Chandra as what I have to assume is a concession to the possibility of Archway Angel or big Krasis plus punching through slightly better with Torbran.
Every deck that made the top 8 besides field is either dedicating sideboard slots to mainboard hate for Golos decks, or is running an Embercleave combination that would fold to any decks running removal but gets under field.
not really
it may not have been prevalent in that top 8 but it was still massive as a whole at the event and like @milski said is warping deck construction pretty hard as a result to deal with it
it's also pretty likely that Oko gets taken out back too
standard is gonna be the wild west for a bit
every time I see people say or post articles about banning things besides field I go "yes ok ban all the good things, got it"
I don't know personally(and think they should wait a bit before consideration) but LSV is a whole lot better at this than all of us
also I'd make the argument that he is entirely too ubiquitous
I dont disagree that the card leads to some feelbads and is obnoxious but is it getting banned tomorrow probably not
if this keeps up till next B&R? maybe
also I dont need to be LSV to have a pretty good idea of what is or is not ban worthy/format warping in a format I've played almost exclusively for over a decade
it would also piss off basically every player who bought the card because the set only just came out a few weeks ago and that is not enough time to make that sort of call when its not clear yet how thats going to play out
and I said arena bannings, which is a very good data collection method
I'm not sure what the alternative here is; maybe this winning Gruul deck will be good enough to keep Oko in check? I haven't paid much attention, it seems like it was mostly aimed at beating Golos.
i think you give it till next B&R to think about doing something about oko. if he's still everywhere and standard sucks ass because nobody wants to play interesting cards that get turned into elks and its zero fun then sure, ban it
In comparison, Will and Rowan aren't amazing, but at least they realized they needed their +1 to synergize with a set mechanic.
I haven’t done enough looking but it seems like there being a ton of that deck at the event and very few top eights seems like a sign that people overestimated It’s strength?
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It seems moreso that the vast majority of decks were golos and all top 8 decks mainboarded things to specifically hate on golos to the detriment of the deck in most of its matchups.
Oko was in about half of the top 8 decks, and as I noted above, Field was teched against to a truly absurd degree in a way that makes the pure results a bit harder to read than just "it's not actually that good."
Like, a format where people mainboard Disdainful Stroke is a sign something went very wrong
the fact that the decks beating golos played some dubious shit in order to do so, with its % of the meta, still proves that deck is likely a problem as people either played it or warped their deck to beat it
i dont think oko is at that point yet but he does cause a lot of cool splashy cards to just be bad options if they get turned into elks thus limiting what one can get away with playing, and is in a color combo featuring a lot of powerful cards that I dont think are problems on their own but by their powers combined, in the same format together, is annoying
Not at all. It was still crazy prevalent and still managed to fill up 9-16 despite the decks that beat it being brought in specifically built to play against it because those players knew the field would have so many of those decks. And still one made it through to the top 8 as well.
Plus the main thing that makes it so unfun imo is how it plays out the same every game. It never feels like a deck with variations due to how well it grabs what it needs every game. And you either kill them before they get the same pieces they just gather up or you lose.
Nice to see that, despite everything, WOTC isn't just stabbing one of their big players on the back for Yuans. It sucks that the bar is set so low, but that can't be helped.
Pretty sure Javier was lucky to get past the Oko decks he ran into. His deck had better game against it than the other two aggro decks (+1/+1 counters neuter Oko's Elk ability) but the other two Gruul Aggro players in the event 0-4d day one thanks to not being so lucky (plus not having the reigning World Champion piloting them, probably).
Also worth noting that Javier barely made both cuts. 10 4-3s made Day 2 (Javier was 23rd/24 that advanced), and he was the only Day 2 4-3 to make Top 8. Swiss was hostile to this deck.