Changing out the prison guards just minimizes the work the next republican needs to do to move backwards.
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Shortytouching the meatIntergalactic Cool CourtRegistered Userregular
the weirdest thing about HHS writing the checks instead of ICE being used as evidence that the camps are fine, actually, is the implication that cryptofash types will stop seeking out these jobs because of it
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No-QuarterNothing To FearBut Fear ItselfRegistered Userregular
Were any other immigration agencies defying federal orders the way ICE is/was?
Also for Christ’s sake people, the United States government should be more than capable of running goddamned dormitories instead of goddamn camps.
The reason they’re camps isn’t because the alternative is hard. For Christ’s sake even the last administration was running these hellholes out of abandoned grocery stores. They’re running this shit like this because they fundamentally do not view immigrants, period, as equal to citizens.
I disagree and view this as your personal opinion on the subject.
Also, immigrants in these situations. And I am talking specifically about those crossing the border and being held at these facilities, are not citizens. They just aren’t. They should be given a path that makes them citizens as quickly as possible though.
Also for Christ’s sake people, the United States government should be more than capable of running goddamned dormitories instead of goddamn camps.
The reason they’re camps isn’t because the alternative is hard. For Christ’s sake even the last administration was running these hellholes out of abandoned grocery stores. They’re running this shit like this because they fundamentally do not view immigrants, period, as equal to citizens.
I disagree and view this as your personal opinion on the subject.
Also, immigrants in these situations. And I am talking specifically about those crossing the border and being held at these facilities, are not citizens. They just aren’t. They should be given a path that makes them citizens as quickly as possible though.
I agree, we should make gaining US citizenship an afternoon process at most. Maybe make it more complicated if you want to retain dual citizenship but otherwise, rubber stamp it, put these people into the system.
Its a facility in which kids are picked up by the government and not allowed to leave. I get that it has a dining tent, like a fancy wedding, but we're describing a prison.
They are allowed to leave though. Once family or a long term caregiver is located. These locations are more for holding than confinement.
Oh, well if we're just temporarily "holding" kids in prison for an indeterminate amount of time...
There’s absolutely no way around it as long as minors are crossing the border without a parent.
We have a responsiblity to care for them. Unless we're going to argue that childcare always constitutes a prison I dont think so.
These aren’t prisons. They aren’t being booked for a crime. We need a safe, secure place to house these children until long term care is found.
They werent getting booked on charges under the prior administration either when no one had a problem calling them prisons.
Hey, turns out context matter! Things Trump did are different than things Biden is doing! Weird how reality works like that, where wide brush strokes that eliminate all the details tend to get things not very accurate.
There are lots of luxury apartment complexes sitting unused.
Eminent domain for humanitarian purposes would be a nice change of pace but we haven't seized these complexes to care for the homeless during the confluence of a pandemic and disastrous weather conditions, so I realize this is just me wishing in one hand.
But it is possible to do.
Similar problem with hotels though yeah?
I am advocating for humane solutions that, while imperfect, are better than literally holding children in concentrations camps and private prisons.
If you are unwilling to accept any solution that is less than perfectly accounting for all variables, please say so.
If you feel that the imperfections with the humane solutions being proffered are too great and that holding them in concentration camps and private prisons is preferable, again, please say so, and do specify what issues you have with these our imperfect humane solutions so that we can try to craft and propose better solutions that at least rise above the quality of holding them in concentration camps and private prisons.
See the issue here is that you think they are concentration camps and private prisons because that's what Trump did and you don't trust Biden, but there's not actually factual evidence that backs that up right now. You are arguing with people who aren't just taking it for granted Biden is happy to put kids in concentration camps, so there's just... a major disconnect here between what you just accept as reality and what other people think is reasonable to accept as a foundation for the conversation.
...the facility in the article pages ago had been used by previous administrations. Trump has been using facilities that were built under Obama. Newly-opening facilities were begun while Trump was still in office.
The burden of proof is on you, who is asserting that Biden being in charge somehow magically is altering these facilities.
Also for Christ’s sake people, the United States government should be more than capable of running goddamned dormitories instead of goddamn camps.
The reason they’re camps isn’t because the alternative is hard. For Christ’s sake even the last administration was running these hellholes out of abandoned grocery stores. They’re running this shit like this because they fundamentally do not view immigrants, period, as equal to citizens.
I disagree and view this as your personal opinion on the subject.
Also, immigrants in these situations. And I am talking specifically about those crossing the border and being held at these facilities, are not citizens. They just aren’t. They should be given a path that makes them citizens as quickly as possible though.
The entire history of US immigration law, and the hemming and hawing of even the not literally neoconfederate fascists for reforming a deeply inhuman and broken system that was incepted for the direct purpose of preserving white supremacy and our inability even over subsequent generations to confront, let alone come to terms with, that reality, says otherwise.
We created our immigration laws because, after exploiting their backbreaking labor to build our railroads in the 1800s, White Americans went “feels like too many Chinese here. Gotta do something about that.”
Its a facility in which kids are picked up by the government and not allowed to leave. I get that it has a dining tent, like a fancy wedding, but we're describing a prison.
They are allowed to leave though. Once family or a long term caregiver is located. These locations are more for holding than confinement.
Oh, well if we're just temporarily "holding" kids in prison for an indeterminate amount of time...
There’s absolutely no way around it as long as minors are crossing the border without a parent.
We have a responsiblity to care for them. Unless we're going to argue that childcare always constitutes a prison I dont think so.
These aren’t prisons. They aren’t being booked for a crime. We need a safe, secure place to house these children until long term care is found.
They werent getting booked on charges under the prior administration either when no one had a problem calling them prisons.
Hey, turns out context matter! Things Trump did are different than things Biden is doing! Weird how reality works like that, where wide brush strokes that eliminate all the details tend to get things not very accurate.
There are lots of luxury apartment complexes sitting unused.
Eminent domain for humanitarian purposes would be a nice change of pace but we haven't seized these complexes to care for the homeless during the confluence of a pandemic and disastrous weather conditions, so I realize this is just me wishing in one hand.
But it is possible to do.
Similar problem with hotels though yeah?
I am advocating for humane solutions that, while imperfect, are better than literally holding children in concentrations camps and private prisons.
If you are unwilling to accept any solution that is less than perfectly accounting for all variables, please say so.
If you feel that the imperfections with the humane solutions being proffered are too great and that holding them in concentration camps and private prisons is preferable, again, please say so, and do specify what issues you have with these our imperfect humane solutions so that we can try to craft and propose better solutions that at least rise above the quality of holding them in concentration camps and private prisons.
See the issue here is that you think they are concentration camps and private prisons because that's what Trump did and you don't trust Biden, but there's not actually factual evidence that backs that up right now. You are arguing with people who aren't just taking it for granted Biden is happy to put kids in concentration camps, so there's just... a major disconnect here between what you just accept as reality and what other people think is reasonable to accept as a foundation for the conversation.
...the facility in the article has been used by previous administrations. Trump has been using facilities that were built under Obama. The burden of proof is on you, who is asserting that Biden being in charge somehow magically is altering these facilities.
iirc, Trump had it open for a few months. I think this facility wasn't one that people were complaining about re: kids in cages ever, was it? So.... if you want to equate them to what Trump was doing, "kids in cages," prisons, concentration camps, then you'll need to provide something, yeah.
If you want to equate it to Obama-style treatment of illegal minor immigrants, that's something else. Unless your argument is Trump and Obama both imprisoned kids in the same way?
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
In case it wasn't made clearer by AOC's comments from the last day or two, the fundamental problem here is that our immigration system operates as a mirror of our criminal 'justice' system. Which is to say, harsh jail environments are being used. It doesn't matter how much you alleviate the problems, these people and children are still in a jail system.
I'm trying to dig up a proper citation on it but I've seen allegations of HHS abusing the children in question, serving them undercooked / raw food, stealing money sent by the family to the children being caged, and worse.
I'm kind of taken aback by how people are trying to debate the finer definitions of what's going on with these kids as if the legal definition is the problem.
We created our immigration laws because, after exploiting their backbreaking labor to build our railroads in the 1800s, White Americans went “feels like too many Chinese here. Gotta do something about that.”
And so we started banning immigration
That's true, and trust me I'm very much "anyone who wants to come can come and be a citizen here," but that still doesn't mean that people who aren't full-on open borders are racist or view immigrants as "less" or whatever.
Bad shit doesn’t stop happening just because a Democrat is in charge.
There is a strange and distressing level of faith that many in here are asking the rest of us to have in a system that brutalized Latin American immigrants even before Trump took office.
Bad shit doesn’t stop happening just because a Democrat is in charge.
There is a strange and distressing level of faith that many in here are asking the rest of us to have in a system that brutalized Latin American immigrants even before Trump took office.
It doesn't stop happening, but it doesn't mean that everything that happens should be assumed to be an atrocity until proven otherwise.
I mean, you can act that way if you want, that's your right.
We created our immigration laws because, after exploiting their backbreaking labor to build our railroads in the 1800s, White Americans went “feels like too many Chinese here. Gotta do something about that.”
And so we started banning immigration
That's true, and trust me I'm very much "anyone who wants to come can come and be a citizen here," but that still doesn't mean that people who aren't full-on open borders are racist or view immigrants as "less" or whatever.
But they are fundamentally acting under the "fear of the other" mentality which is bigoted.
We created our immigration laws because, after exploiting their backbreaking labor to build our railroads in the 1800s, White Americans went “feels like too many Chinese here. Gotta do something about that.”
And so we started banning immigration
That's true, and trust me I'm very much "anyone who wants to come can come and be a citizen here," but that still doesn't mean that people who aren't full-on open borders are racist or view immigrants as "less" or whatever.
I’m just gonna be polite and say there’s a lot of stuff folks don’t interrogate because the system told them their entire lives this is the way things are meant to be, even though they exist because, full stop, because of white supremacy.
The poisoned ground and roots don’t stop being poisonous because you’ve pruned the nastier branches of the tree
We created our immigration laws because, after exploiting their backbreaking labor to build our railroads in the 1800s, White Americans went “feels like too many Chinese here. Gotta do something about that.”
And so we started banning immigration
That's true, and trust me I'm very much "anyone who wants to come can come and be a citizen here," but that still doesn't mean that people who aren't full-on open borders are racist or view immigrants as "less" or whatever.
But they are fundamentally acting under the "fear of the other" mentality which is bigoted.
To make sure I understand.... anything less than full open borders is bigoted, in your opinion?
Bad shit doesn’t stop happening just because a Democrat is in charge.
There is a strange and distressing level of faith that many in here are asking the rest of us to have in a system that brutalized Latin American immigrants even before Trump took office.
It doesn't stop happening, but it doesn't mean that everything that happens should be assumed to be an atrocity until proven otherwise.
I mean, you can act that way if you want, that's your right.
Kids in prison conditions is an atrocity. I don't give a flying fuck if you give them blankets and 3 meals a day.
Bad shit doesn’t stop happening just because a Democrat is in charge.
There is a strange and distressing level of faith that many in here are asking the rest of us to have in a system that brutalized Latin American immigrants even before Trump took office.
It doesn't stop happening, but it doesn't mean that everything that happens should be assumed to be an atrocity until proven otherwise.
I mean, you can act that way if you want, that's your right.
why do the democrats get the benefit of the doubt here in a way that the republicans don't? please understand this is an honest question, i'm not trying any gotcha shit. what specifically is different now that we can't assume these internment camps are an atrocity when with trump the assumption was that they were?
I posted it pages ago but Biden got taken to task over an i humane deportation regime managed by his and Obama’s administration. A crowd of Latin Americans jeered him over it.
This shit didn’t simply start with Trump. This is an American issue, through and through.
We created our immigration laws because, after exploiting their backbreaking labor to build our railroads in the 1800s, White Americans went “feels like too many Chinese here. Gotta do something about that.”
And so we started banning immigration
That's true, and trust me I'm very much "anyone who wants to come can come and be a citizen here," but that still doesn't mean that people who aren't full-on open borders are racist or view immigrants as "less" or whatever.
But they are fundamentally acting under the "fear of the other" mentality which is bigoted.
To make sure I understand.... anything less than full open borders is bigoted, in your opinion?
Only according to that lady NYC yeah.
I'm saying we can still take people's information as they cross, but I consider the idea of a closed border to be a country showing weakness not strength, especially a country that has more data on everyone on the planet than anyone else.
Bad shit doesn’t stop happening just because a Democrat is in charge.
There is a strange and distressing level of faith that many in here are asking the rest of us to have in a system that brutalized Latin American immigrants even before Trump took office.
It doesn't stop happening, but it doesn't mean that everything that happens should be assumed to be an atrocity until proven otherwise.
I mean, you can act that way if you want, that's your right.
Kids in prison conditions is an atrocity. I don't give a flying fuck if you give them blankets and 3 meals a day.
Bad shit doesn’t stop happening just because a Democrat is in charge.
There is a strange and distressing level of faith that many in here are asking the rest of us to have in a system that brutalized Latin American immigrants even before Trump took office.
It doesn't stop happening, but it doesn't mean that everything that happens should be assumed to be an atrocity until proven otherwise.
I mean, you can act that way if you want, that's your right.
why do the democrats get the benefit of the doubt here in a way that the republicans don't? please understand this is an honest question, i'm not trying any gotcha shit. what specifically is different now that we can't assume these internment camps are an atrocity when with trump the assumption was that they were?
I will believe things are better when someone I trust on the matter, like AOC or any number of good watchdogs, are given free, unfettered, and unscheduled access to the facilities and the kids
We created our immigration laws because, after exploiting their backbreaking labor to build our railroads in the 1800s, White Americans went “feels like too many Chinese here. Gotta do something about that.”
And so we started banning immigration
That's true, and trust me I'm very much "anyone who wants to come can come and be a citizen here," but that still doesn't mean that people who aren't full-on open borders are racist or view immigrants as "less" or whatever.
But they are fundamentally acting under the "fear of the other" mentality which is bigoted.
To make sure I understand.... anything less than full open borders is bigoted, in your opinion?
I would argue first sheltered before bigoted.
It’s the miasma of White Supremacy and its branching mechanisms of enforcement that so many of us Americans grew up under and took for granted, ignorant of a history purposefully kept from us because it would shame us to learn it and break the myths of American Exceptionalism we’ve been fed since birth
The Biden admin it’s reopening the same detention camp for children in Homestead @VP Harris vowed to shut down when elected.
She said “it’s a human rights abuse being committed by the U.S. gov” when speaking of the facility.
The Biden admin needs to permanently shut it down.
I don't see Harris publicly going "hey Joe what the fuck" about this now.
Edit - Because Tweets and this forum are a bad combo, the quoted text above is from the person who has the video back in circulation. I agree with Harris from back then, but if she's silent now, fuck her.
We created our immigration laws because, after exploiting their backbreaking labor to build our railroads in the 1800s, White Americans went “feels like too many Chinese here. Gotta do something about that.”
And so we started banning immigration
That's true, and trust me I'm very much "anyone who wants to come can come and be a citizen here," but that still doesn't mean that people who aren't full-on open borders are racist or view immigrants as "less" or whatever.
But they are fundamentally acting under the "fear of the other" mentality which is bigoted.
To make sure I understand.... anything less than full open borders is bigoted, in your opinion?
I would argue first sheltered before bigoted.
It’s the miasma of White Supremacy and its branching mechanisms of enforcement that so many of us Americans grew up under and took for granted, ignorant of a history purposefully kept from us because it would shame us to learn it and break the myths of American Exceptionalism we’ve been fed since birth
"Immature" is probably the word I'd use, tbh. Generations later, assuming human society continues in any reasonable way, people are gonna think we were children for the way we treat borders.
This is the history of laws concerning immigration and naturalization in the United States. Immigration is distinct from naturalization. For the first century of the United States' history, immigration to the country was unrestricted. Anyone could move into the United States, start a new life, pay taxes, participate in military service and conduct business. However, while the United States had an "open-borders" policy for the first century of its existence, it had very clear naturalization laws from the first years of its existence. Anyone who wanted to vote or hold elective office had to be naturalized. That is, anyone could immigrate in, but only those who went through the naturalization process and became a citizen could vote or hold elective office.
[now there of course are issues there, given the issue of the nation being a settler colony whose expansion was explicitly dependent on the genocide of its indigenous populace, but that’s a whole OTHER discussion]
We created our immigration laws because, after exploiting their backbreaking labor to build our railroads in the 1800s, White Americans went “feels like too many Chinese here. Gotta do something about that.”
And so we started banning immigration
That's true, and trust me I'm very much "anyone who wants to come can come and be a citizen here," but that still doesn't mean that people who aren't full-on open borders are racist or view immigrants as "less" or whatever.
But they are fundamentally acting under the "fear of the other" mentality which is bigoted.
To make sure I understand.... anything less than full open borders is bigoted, in your opinion?
I would argue first sheltered before bigoted.
It’s the miasma of White Supremacy and its branching mechanisms of enforcement that so many of us Americans grew up under and took for granted, ignorant of a history purposefully kept from us because it would shame us to learn it and break the myths of American Exceptionalism we’ve been fed since birth
"Immature" is probably the word I'd use, tbh. Generations later, assuming human society continues in any reasonable way, people are gonna think we were children for the way we treat borders.
I think immature is maybe soft selling it.
Our forebears knew EXACTLY what it was they were doing.
Our only defense is none of us are taught this shit, and even that is rapidly fading because it doesn’t take much these days to research it.
We created our immigration laws because, after exploiting their backbreaking labor to build our railroads in the 1800s, White Americans went “feels like too many Chinese here. Gotta do something about that.”
And so we started banning immigration
That's true, and trust me I'm very much "anyone who wants to come can come and be a citizen here," but that still doesn't mean that people who aren't full-on open borders are racist or view immigrants as "less" or whatever.
But they are fundamentally acting under the "fear of the other" mentality which is bigoted.
To make sure I understand.... anything less than full open borders is bigoted, in your opinion?
I would argue first sheltered before bigoted.
It’s the miasma of White Supremacy and its branching mechanisms of enforcement that so many of us Americans grew up under and took for granted, ignorant of a history purposefully kept from us because it would shame us to learn it and break the myths of American Exceptionalism we’ve been fed since birth
"Immature" is probably the word I'd use, tbh. Generations later, assuming human society continues in any reasonable way, people are gonna think we were children for the way we treat borders.
I think immature is maybe soft selling it.
Our forebears knew EXACTLY what it was they were doing.
Our only defense is none of us are taught this shit, and even that is rapidly fading because it doesn’t take much these days to research it.
Immature from like... a species evolution standpoint.
setting aside the very dumb and deliberately insulting "you're not inhabiting reality" statements, I'd say that one of the main reasons people think that biden is happy to put kids in concentration camps is that he was vice president when the facilities Trump used were first built
The facilities were built to handle migrants that were suspected of serious crimes not just anyone that was undocumented. That was Trump's policy as was criminalizing refuge in general which is how things got so much worse.
Bad shit doesn’t stop happening just because a Democrat is in charge.
There is a strange and distressing level of faith that many in here are asking the rest of us to have in a system that brutalized Latin American immigrants even before Trump took office.
It doesn't stop happening, but it doesn't mean that everything that happens should be assumed to be an atrocity until proven otherwise.
I mean, you can act that way if you want, that's your right.
Kids in prison conditions is an atrocity. I don't give a flying fuck if you give them blankets and 3 meals a day.
I agree, so let me know if that happens.
Do you disagree that we housed Japanese-Americans in concentration camps during WWII?
Bad shit doesn’t stop happening just because a Democrat is in charge.
There is a strange and distressing level of faith that many in here are asking the rest of us to have in a system that brutalized Latin American immigrants even before Trump took office.
It doesn't stop happening, but it doesn't mean that everything that happens should be assumed to be an atrocity until proven otherwise.
I mean, you can act that way if you want, that's your right.
Kids in prison conditions is an atrocity. I don't give a flying fuck if you give them blankets and 3 meals a day.
I agree, so let me know if that happens.
Do you disagree that we housed Japanese-Americans in concentration camps during WWII?
I've heard that, and I have no reason to disagree, but I haven't actually looked into it much. Most of what I heard about what made that bad wasn't the camps, so much as they were ripped from their lives and had it stolen from them while they were gone.
But, again, this is not something I've read much into ever.
I assume your next step is to draw an equivalency between the WW2 camps in the US and the facility Biden just opened and use your imagination to fill in the blanks such that they match enough?
We created our immigration laws because, after exploiting their backbreaking labor to build our railroads in the 1800s, White Americans went “feels like too many Chinese here. Gotta do something about that.”
And so we started banning immigration
That's true, and trust me I'm very much "anyone who wants to come can come and be a citizen here," but that still doesn't mean that people who aren't full-on open borders are racist or view immigrants as "less" or whatever.
But they are fundamentally acting under the "fear of the other" mentality which is bigoted.
To make sure I understand.... anything less than full open borders is bigoted, in your opinion?
I would argue first sheltered before bigoted.
It’s the miasma of White Supremacy and its branching mechanisms of enforcement that so many of us Americans grew up under and took for granted, ignorant of a history purposefully kept from us because it would shame us to learn it and break the myths of American Exceptionalism we’ve been fed since birth
"Immature" is probably the word I'd use, tbh. Generations later, assuming human society continues in any reasonable way, people are gonna think we were children for the way we treat borders.
I think immature is maybe soft selling it.
Our forebears knew EXACTLY what it was they were doing.
Our only defense is none of us are taught this shit, and even that is rapidly fading because it doesn’t take much these days to research it.
Immature from like... a species evolution standpoint.
Not to be a hardass about this, but even that, unfortunately, is one of the ways white supremacy permeates our thinking without us ever realizing. The notion of social progress as this evolutionary ladder that we have to get through, without really ever interrogating why the systems we have to overcome existed in the first place.
Again, our forebears knew what they were doing, and they had contemporaries who realized these things for what they were. It’s like when folks talk about slavery in America as this thing we had to evolve past when there were contemporaries of the founding fathers who very very bluntly mocked the US declaring itself a nation of liberty whilst enslaving its black populace.
But again, that is rarely, if ever, taught. Because it would impugn America in ways absolute and fundamental
Bad shit doesn’t stop happening just because a Democrat is in charge.
There is a strange and distressing level of faith that many in here are asking the rest of us to have in a system that brutalized Latin American immigrants even before Trump took office.
It doesn't stop happening, but it doesn't mean that everything that happens should be assumed to be an atrocity until proven otherwise.
I mean, you can act that way if you want, that's your right.
Kids in prison conditions is an atrocity. I don't give a flying fuck if you give them blankets and 3 meals a day.
I agree, so let me know if that happens.
Do you disagree that we housed Japanese-Americans in concentration camps during WWII?
I've heard that, and I have no reason to disagree, but I haven't actually looked into it much. Most of what I heard about what made that bad wasn't the camps, so much as they were ripped from their lives and had it stolen from them while they were gone.
But, again, this is not something I've read much into ever.
I assume your next step is to draw an equivalency between the WW2 camps in the US and the facility Biden just opened and use your imagination to fill in the blanks such that they match enough?
We created our immigration laws because, after exploiting their backbreaking labor to build our railroads in the 1800s, White Americans went “feels like too many Chinese here. Gotta do something about that.”
And so we started banning immigration
That's true, and trust me I'm very much "anyone who wants to come can come and be a citizen here," but that still doesn't mean that people who aren't full-on open borders are racist or view immigrants as "less" or whatever.
But they are fundamentally acting under the "fear of the other" mentality which is bigoted.
To make sure I understand.... anything less than full open borders is bigoted, in your opinion?
I would argue first sheltered before bigoted.
It’s the miasma of White Supremacy and its branching mechanisms of enforcement that so many of us Americans grew up under and took for granted, ignorant of a history purposefully kept from us because it would shame us to learn it and break the myths of American Exceptionalism we’ve been fed since birth
"Immature" is probably the word I'd use, tbh. Generations later, assuming human society continues in any reasonable way, people are gonna think we were children for the way we treat borders.
I think immature is maybe soft selling it.
Our forebears knew EXACTLY what it was they were doing.
Our only defense is none of us are taught this shit, and even that is rapidly fading because it doesn’t take much these days to research it.
Immature from like... a species evolution standpoint.
Not to be a hardass about this, but even that, unfortunately, is one of the ways white supremacy permeates our thinking without us ever realizing. The notion of social progress as this evolutionary ladder that we have to get through, without really ever interrogating why the systems we have to overcome existed in the first place.
Again, our forebears knew what they were doing, and they had contemporaries who realized these things for what they were. It’s like when folks talk about slavery in America as this thing we had to evolve past when there were contemporaries of the founding fathers who very very bluntly mocked the US declaring itself a nation of liberty whilst enslaving its black populace.
I disagree, you are thinking of this from too much of a US-centric perspective, but it's getting off topic (but don't want you to think I'm ignoring you ). White supremacy is bad and is pervasive everywhere in US policies though, I agree.
Bad shit doesn’t stop happening just because a Democrat is in charge.
There is a strange and distressing level of faith that many in here are asking the rest of us to have in a system that brutalized Latin American immigrants even before Trump took office.
It doesn't stop happening, but it doesn't mean that everything that happens should be assumed to be an atrocity until proven otherwise.
I mean, you can act that way if you want, that's your right.
Kids in prison conditions is an atrocity. I don't give a flying fuck if you give them blankets and 3 meals a day.
I agree, so let me know if that happens.
Do you disagree that we housed Japanese-Americans in concentration camps during WWII?
I've heard that, and I have no reason to disagree, but I haven't actually looked into it much. Most of what I heard about what made that bad wasn't the camps, so much as they were ripped from their lives and had it stolen from them while they were gone.
But, again, this is not something I've read much into ever.
I assume your next step is to draw an equivalency between the WW2 camps in the US and the facility Biden just opened and use your imagination to fill in the blanks such that they match enough?
Bad shit doesn’t stop happening just because a Democrat is in charge.
There is a strange and distressing level of faith that many in here are asking the rest of us to have in a system that brutalized Latin American immigrants even before Trump took office.
It doesn't stop happening, but it doesn't mean that everything that happens should be assumed to be an atrocity until proven otherwise.
I mean, you can act that way if you want, that's your right.
Kids in prison conditions is an atrocity. I don't give a flying fuck if you give them blankets and 3 meals a day.
I agree, so let me know if that happens.
Do you disagree that we housed Japanese-Americans in concentration camps during WWII?
I've heard that, and I have no reason to disagree, but I haven't actually looked into it much. Most of what I heard about what made that bad wasn't the camps, so much as they were ripped from their lives and had it stolen from them while they were gone.
But, again, this is not something I've read much into ever.
I assume your next step is to draw an equivalency between the WW2 camps in the US and the facility Biden just opened and use your imagination to fill in the blanks such that they match enough?
There are a lot of facilities for children you're not allowed to leave for one reason or another for a duration. They're not all prisons or concentration camps. Police will drag your ass back to school if they're in the mood for it, summer camps exist, etc.
We are able to use different terms for things which share some but not all common components.
I will say that it is ridiculous that police will forcibly make you attend school
It is just such a stupid, stupid way of dealing with anything
Posts
Honest question.
I disagree and view this as your personal opinion on the subject.
Also, immigrants in these situations. And I am talking specifically about those crossing the border and being held at these facilities, are not citizens. They just aren’t. They should be given a path that makes them citizens as quickly as possible though.
I agree, we should make gaining US citizenship an afternoon process at most. Maybe make it more complicated if you want to retain dual citizenship but otherwise, rubber stamp it, put these people into the system.
...the facility in the article pages ago had been used by previous administrations. Trump has been using facilities that were built under Obama. Newly-opening facilities were begun while Trump was still in office.
The burden of proof is on you, who is asserting that Biden being in charge somehow magically is altering these facilities.
The entire history of US immigration law, and the hemming and hawing of even the not literally neoconfederate fascists for reforming a deeply inhuman and broken system that was incepted for the direct purpose of preserving white supremacy and our inability even over subsequent generations to confront, let alone come to terms with, that reality, says otherwise.
We created our immigration laws because, after exploiting their backbreaking labor to build our railroads in the 1800s, White Americans went “feels like too many Chinese here. Gotta do something about that.”
And so we started banning immigration
iirc, Trump had it open for a few months. I think this facility wasn't one that people were complaining about re: kids in cages ever, was it? So.... if you want to equate them to what Trump was doing, "kids in cages," prisons, concentration camps, then you'll need to provide something, yeah.
If you want to equate it to Obama-style treatment of illegal minor immigrants, that's something else. Unless your argument is Trump and Obama both imprisoned kids in the same way?
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I'm trying to dig up a proper citation on it but I've seen allegations of HHS abusing the children in question, serving them undercooked / raw food, stealing money sent by the family to the children being caged, and worse.
I'm kind of taken aback by how people are trying to debate the finer definitions of what's going on with these kids as if the legal definition is the problem.
That's true, and trust me I'm very much "anyone who wants to come can come and be a citizen here," but that still doesn't mean that people who aren't full-on open borders are racist or view immigrants as "less" or whatever.
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There is a strange and distressing level of faith that many in here are asking the rest of us to have in a system that brutalized Latin American immigrants even before Trump took office.
It doesn't stop happening, but it doesn't mean that everything that happens should be assumed to be an atrocity until proven otherwise.
I mean, you can act that way if you want, that's your right.
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But they are fundamentally acting under the "fear of the other" mentality which is bigoted.
I’m just gonna be polite and say there’s a lot of stuff folks don’t interrogate because the system told them their entire lives this is the way things are meant to be, even though they exist because, full stop, because of white supremacy.
The poisoned ground and roots don’t stop being poisonous because you’ve pruned the nastier branches of the tree
To make sure I understand.... anything less than full open borders is bigoted, in your opinion?
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why do the democrats get the benefit of the doubt here in a way that the republicans don't? please understand this is an honest question, i'm not trying any gotcha shit. what specifically is different now that we can't assume these internment camps are an atrocity when with trump the assumption was that they were?
hitting hot metal with hammers
I posted it pages ago but Biden got taken to task over an i humane deportation regime managed by his and Obama’s administration. A crowd of Latin Americans jeered him over it.
This shit didn’t simply start with Trump. This is an American issue, through and through.
Only according to that lady NYC yeah.
I'm saying we can still take people's information as they cross, but I consider the idea of a closed border to be a country showing weakness not strength, especially a country that has more data on everyone on the planet than anyone else.
I agree, so let me know if that happens.
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I will believe things are better when someone I trust on the matter, like AOC or any number of good watchdogs, are given free, unfettered, and unscheduled access to the facilities and the kids
Until then I merely hope that they are better
I would argue first sheltered before bigoted.
It’s the miasma of White Supremacy and its branching mechanisms of enforcement that so many of us Americans grew up under and took for granted, ignorant of a history purposefully kept from us because it would shame us to learn it and break the myths of American Exceptionalism we’ve been fed since birth
I assumed no one knew what I was talking about and I didn't feel like explaining it.
Edit - Because Tweets and this forum are a bad combo, the quoted text above is from the person who has the video back in circulation. I agree with Harris from back then, but if she's silent now, fuck her.
"Immature" is probably the word I'd use, tbh. Generations later, assuming human society continues in any reasonable way, people are gonna think we were children for the way we treat borders.
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Via wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_laws_concerning_immigration_and_naturalization_in_the_United_States
I think immature is maybe soft selling it.
Our forebears knew EXACTLY what it was they were doing.
Our only defense is none of us are taught this shit, and even that is rapidly fading because it doesn’t take much these days to research it.
Immature from like... a species evolution standpoint.
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The facilities were built to handle migrants that were suspected of serious crimes not just anyone that was undocumented. That was Trump's policy as was criminalizing refuge in general which is how things got so much worse.
Do you disagree that we housed Japanese-Americans in concentration camps during WWII?
I've heard that, and I have no reason to disagree, but I haven't actually looked into it much. Most of what I heard about what made that bad wasn't the camps, so much as they were ripped from their lives and had it stolen from them while they were gone.
But, again, this is not something I've read much into ever.
I assume your next step is to draw an equivalency between the WW2 camps in the US and the facility Biden just opened and use your imagination to fill in the blanks such that they match enough?
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Not to be a hardass about this, but even that, unfortunately, is one of the ways white supremacy permeates our thinking without us ever realizing. The notion of social progress as this evolutionary ladder that we have to get through, without really ever interrogating why the systems we have to overcome existed in the first place.
Again, our forebears knew what they were doing, and they had contemporaries who realized these things for what they were. It’s like when folks talk about slavery in America as this thing we had to evolve past when there were contemporaries of the founding fathers who very very bluntly mocked the US declaring itself a nation of liberty whilst enslaving its black populace.
But again, that is rarely, if ever, taught. Because it would impugn America in ways absolute and fundamental
You're wrong, you don't know what you're talking about, and I really don't have to use my imagination: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manzanar
I disagree, you are thinking of this from too much of a US-centric perspective, but it's getting off topic (but don't want you to think I'm ignoring you
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Cool, now link me the wiki page for the newly opened facility and then we really won't have to imagine the most important parts!
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Jfc Kime youve spent pages now talking about the material conditions of this prison.
I will say that it is ridiculous that police will forcibly make you attend school
It is just such a stupid, stupid way of dealing with anything