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American Carnage - 31 Killed Between Mass Shootings in El Paso, Texas and Dayton, Ohio

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Posts

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    The local ABC affiliate has posted the requisite "But he was so nice" for all white murderers. I will not link to it, because gross. I will note, however, that the three quotes they are basing the story on are all from men.

    The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
  • TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    edited August 2019
    Juggernut wrote: »
    The mental illness line is such bullshit.

    I'm linking this unrolled twitter thread by Caroline Chen who is a healthcare reporter at ProPublica. She's listed out a lotta of research articles and stats that basically indicate no, mental health has never been a cause of rampage shootings. Its fucking easy goddamned access to fucking military patterned, high capacity rifles and ammo.

    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1158122051141623808.html

    Nobody needs a fucking AR or an AK or semi auto rifle with high capacity magazines. Nobody. I fucking owned one once. It was a goddamned toy and I'm embarrassed of myself. It serves no functional purpose beyond the effective and expedient killing of human beings. That's it. You don't hunt with a fucking .223 rifle and a 100 round drum magazine and fucking holographic sights. If you do you fucking suck. Learn how to shoot, asshole. You can't, despite what Ted from fucking accounting might tell you, use them in a home defense situation because of the almost 3,000 foot per second muzzle velocity. You miss that spooky shadow that scared you in the hallway and congratulations you fucking shit dick, you just shot little Tommy who was asleep in his bed across the fucking street.

    Literally the only reason we have these things is because they feel good. Let me explain: weapons are erotic. You take a man and you hand him an AR-15 and you're gonna see something glint in his eye. These things have been developed and honed for decades to be ergonomic, weighty but maneuverable, to feel like an extension of yourself and your unbridled, masculine ability to kill. It is a pure response from whatever part of our ape brain still ticks around in our skulls.

    We tell our boys that real men take action, real men are warriors and soldiers and real man can jump into the fray and kill if they need to and look here, son, look at this thing that we made for you that reaffirms what we all really think we are. Look at this sleek, menacing tool that, once you pick it up, you know, you really know that you are the action hero you always believed you were. They're gonna take you seriously now, boy.

    I've seen this shit. You can be talking to someone and then somehow this thing comes up and their whole demeanor changes. They get dark, and some mean, vicious animal rises up from their chest as they tell you what they're willing to do to some imaginary foe they've concocted in their fantasies. It's a sickness.

    These kids who go into schools and churches and shopping centers believe they're the good guys. They believe they're fighting back against this dangerous enemy that's out to destroy them and their way of life. They're simply acting out the fantasy so many, if not all men have had at some point. They've let the lines blurr and we let them go buy an AK-47 and we give them a 20% off coupon for their next purchase.

    Fuck.

    Fuck.

    Not even that, it's a fetish built around something you've built up specifically around it. It's Victorians and women's ankles.
    If you've been in the cadets at school in the UK you've handled assault weapons, might have even had the chance to fire a proper machine gun. But you've done so in a way that is specifically focused on a task - in this case marksmanship. There's no innate rush from holding these things, or even firing them. The Swiss are required to have these things in their homes and practice regularly and yet...

    Any fantastic payoff you get from them is the fantasy you bring in, and then indulge.

    Tastyfish on
  • thatassemblyguythatassemblyguy Janitor of Technical Debt .Registered User regular
    The local ABC affiliate has posted the requisite "But he was so nice" for all white murderers. I will not link to it, because gross. I will note, however, that the three quotes they are basing the story on are all from men.

    ABC and NBC were big on the "Hate Crime" narrative on the national news tonight.

    CBS was the only one with the guts to basically call it Terror/Terrorism (but then also mentioned that the state was going to prosecute as a hate crime, most likely).

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited August 2019
    The local ABC affiliate has posted the requisite "But he was so nice" for all white murderers. I will not link to it, because gross. I will note, however, that the three quotes they are basing the story on are all from men.

    ABC and NBC were big on the "Hate Crime" narrative on the national news tonight.

    CBS was the only one with the guts to basically call it Terror/Terrorism (but then also mentioned that the state was going to prosecute as a hate crime, most likely).

    Dammit, I forgot to mention which shooter this was. This was the Dayton shooter, Cincinnati's ABC affiliate. Where we don't have a motive but there are CNN reports that girls at his high school were afraid of him.

    enlightenedbum on
    The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    I cannot tell you how nauseating I feel after having to discuss a fucking shooter plan with my wife today.

    Need a voice actor? Hire me at bengrayVO.com
    Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    I cannot tell you how nauseating I feel after having to discuss a fucking shooter plan with my wife today.

    I get to run the fucking drills with kids in a month.

    The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
  • TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    edited August 2019
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    I cannot tell you how nauseating I feel after having to discuss a fucking shooter plan with my wife today.

    I get to run the fucking drills with kids in a month.

    That this is considered to be an equal risk as a fire is madness. Is it actually just madness though? I know it happens a lot in the states but not that often - and given you're almost always going to train the shooter at the same time, what's the point other than the security threatre? Except doing a dry run with all the people involved.

    Tastyfish on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Winky wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    And in "so open minded their brains fell out", we have arguments to why an 8chan ban would backfire. There's one comment that stood out to me as being emblematic of the poor logic:
    But on the internet, shutting down one community likely means that at least some of its members will easily go to another one that’s often more extreme than the place they just left, perhaps without anyone noticing. For example, according to a joint analysis by the Anti-Defamation League and the National Contagion Research Institute, user bans on Twitter often correlate with spikes in new membership on the “free-speech alternative” to it, Gab, which has become a haven for the alt-right and other hate groups.

    This is a statement that sounds impressive ("if you kick people off Twitter, they go to Gab!") until you actually analyze it. First off, note that they give no numbers, which is a classic way to lie with statistics. If you remove 100k Twitter users for hate and you see a 10k membership spike on Gab, what you actually have is 90k hateful users removed from Twitter who just choose to not take the effort to join a new service. This leads to the other issue with the statement - it's built on a false belief that migrating services on the internet is frictionless, which has been shown repeatedly to not be the case.

    It's not gonna stop till we start treating rhetoric as a real cause of violence and dealing with it appropriately. This isn't about having a fucking dialogue, it's about removing these people and their ideas from the public discourse. Deplatform, ban, silence, etc, etc, etc.

    Deplatforming 8chan will do nothing long term if we don't tackle the problem at the source, which is education and deradicalization. These ideologies will breed like flies if you just keep pushing them to another chan. These people don't just "go away", they never have and they never will. Meanwhile, deradicalization is absolutely possible, "immunizing" people against disinformation can work.

    Killing 8chan is a good short term strategy, but it's not going to solve the problem.

    No, they don't breed like flies. Because deplatforming works. You know what tackling these issues at their source looks like? It looks like nuking things like 8chan from orbit because that is the source of these ideas for many people.

    Again, the way these shootings are linked by ideology and manifestos, one to the other, is yet more proof of the basic fact that you have to shut down the spread of this rhetoric and these ideas.

  • JuggernutJuggernut Registered User regular
    edited August 2019
    Speaking of



    Kevin Roose is a tech columnist at the New York Times.

    Edit: this doesn't mean 8Chan is getting shut down it just means that, as best as I can tell, at midnight tonight, they have no cover against their site getting hacked or targeted via internet fuckery that I don't fully understand.

    Juggernut on
  • MonwynMonwyn Apathy's a tragedy, and boredom is a crime. A little bit of everything, all of the time.Registered User regular
    Tastyfish wrote: »
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    I cannot tell you how nauseating I feel after having to discuss a fucking shooter plan with my wife today.

    I get to run the fucking drills with kids in a month.

    That this is considered to be an equal risk as a fire is madness. Is it actually just madness though? I know it happens a lot in the states but not that often - and given you're almost always going to train the shooter at the same time, what's the point other than the security threatre? Except doing a dry run with all the people involved.

    It probably happens more often than actual fires.

    uH3IcEi.png
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited August 2019
    Tastyfish wrote: »
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    I cannot tell you how nauseating I feel after having to discuss a fucking shooter plan with my wife today.

    I get to run the fucking drills with kids in a month.

    That this is considered to be an equal risk as a fire is madness. Is it actually just madness though? I know it happens a lot in the states but not that often - and given you're almost always going to train the shooter at the same time, what's the point other than the security threatre? Except doing a dry run with all the people involved.

    The point is that the state mandates it because parents are terrified and security theater is something our Republican legislature will agree to while gun control is not.

    EDIT: At least my school announces they are drills to teachers and we can tell the students that they're drills. Some districts don't, which is insane.

    enlightenedbum on
    The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Juggernut wrote: »
    Speaking of



    Kevin Roose is a tech columnist at the New York Times.

    Edit: this doesn't mean 8Chan is getting shut down it just means that, as best as I can tell, at midnight tonight, they have no cover against their site getting hacked or targeted via internet fuckery that I don't fully understand.

    IIRC when Cloudfare did this to The Daily Stormer, the site died.

    The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
  • TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    edited August 2019
    Juggernut wrote: »
    Speaking of



    Kevin Roose is a tech columnist at the New York Times.

    Edit: this doesn't mean 8Chan is getting shut down it just means that, as best as I can tell, at midnight tonight, they have no cover against their site getting hacked or targeted via internet fuckery that I don't fully understand.

    IIRC when Cloudfare did this to The Daily Stormer, the site died.
    And when your protector publicly makes this fact available?

    Live by the sword...

    Tastyfish on
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    The local ABC affiliate has posted the requisite "But he was so nice" for all white murderers. I will not link to it, because gross. I will note, however, that the three quotes they are basing the story on are all from men.

    ABC and NBC were big on the "Hate Crime" narrative on the national news tonight.

    CBS was the only one with the guts to basically call it Terror/Terrorism (but then also mentioned that the state was going to prosecute as a hate crime, most likely).

    Dammit, I forgot to mention which shooter this was. This was the Dayton shooter, Cincinnati's ABC affiliate. Where we don't have a motive but there are CNN reports that girls at his high school were afraid of him.

    Apparently they got the article from the AP.

    The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    Tastyfish wrote: »
    Juggernut wrote: »
    Speaking of



    Kevin Roose is a tech columnist at the New York Times.

    Edit: this doesn't mean 8Chan is getting shut down it just means that, as best as I can tell, at midnight tonight, they have no cover against their site getting hacked or targeted via internet fuckery that I don't fully understand.

    IIRC when Cloudfare did this to The Daily Stormer, the site died.
    And when your protector publicly makes this fact available?

    Live by the sword...

    Die by the probabilities? Someone's going to pay for a DDoS on them sooner or later when it's been made public knowledge that they're wide open.

    Steam: Polaritie
    3DS: 0473-8507-2652
    Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
    PSN: AbEntropy
  • This content has been removed.

  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist The Skies of HiigaraRegistered User regular
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Tastyfish wrote: »
    Juggernut wrote: »
    Speaking of



    Kevin Roose is a tech columnist at the New York Times.

    Edit: this doesn't mean 8Chan is getting shut down it just means that, as best as I can tell, at midnight tonight, they have no cover against their site getting hacked or targeted via internet fuckery that I don't fully understand.

    IIRC when Cloudfare did this to The Daily Stormer, the site died.
    And when your protector publicly makes this fact available?

    Live by the sword...

    Die by the probabilities? Someone's going to pay for a DDoS on them sooner or later when it's been made public knowledge that they're wide open.

    Reminds me of John Wick, only 8chan are not even in the league of an antihero.

    He/Him | "We who believe in freedom cannot rest." - Dr. Johnetta Cole, 7/22/2024
  • WinkyWinky rRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Winky wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    And in "so open minded their brains fell out", we have arguments to why an 8chan ban would backfire. There's one comment that stood out to me as being emblematic of the poor logic:
    But on the internet, shutting down one community likely means that at least some of its members will easily go to another one that’s often more extreme than the place they just left, perhaps without anyone noticing. For example, according to a joint analysis by the Anti-Defamation League and the National Contagion Research Institute, user bans on Twitter often correlate with spikes in new membership on the “free-speech alternative” to it, Gab, which has become a haven for the alt-right and other hate groups.

    This is a statement that sounds impressive ("if you kick people off Twitter, they go to Gab!") until you actually analyze it. First off, note that they give no numbers, which is a classic way to lie with statistics. If you remove 100k Twitter users for hate and you see a 10k membership spike on Gab, what you actually have is 90k hateful users removed from Twitter who just choose to not take the effort to join a new service. This leads to the other issue with the statement - it's built on a false belief that migrating services on the internet is frictionless, which has been shown repeatedly to not be the case.

    It's not gonna stop till we start treating rhetoric as a real cause of violence and dealing with it appropriately. This isn't about having a fucking dialogue, it's about removing these people and their ideas from the public discourse. Deplatform, ban, silence, etc, etc, etc.

    Deplatforming 8chan will do nothing long term if we don't tackle the problem at the source, which is education and deradicalization. These ideologies will breed like flies if you just keep pushing them to another chan. These people don't just "go away", they never have and they never will. Meanwhile, deradicalization is absolutely possible, "immunizing" people against disinformation can work.

    Killing 8chan is a good short term strategy, but it's not going to solve the problem.

    No, they don't breed like flies. Because deplatforming works. You know what tackling these issues at their source looks like? It looks like nuking things like 8chan from orbit because that is the source of these ideas for many people.

    Again, the way these shootings are linked by ideology and manifestos, one to the other, is yet more proof of the basic fact that you have to shut down the spread of this rhetoric and these ideas.

    8chan didn't create white supremacy, it's one in a long laundry list of platforms for vocalizing these ideas, and what do you propose? We wait until someone from a platform commits an act of terrorism and then shut it down? We will be playing whack-a-mole forever. We preemptively shut down websites we think might be risks for growing white supremacists (who often are using coded language, etc)? How would that make us any better than China? "Nuke it from orbit" might be the most emotionally satisfying choice but it is not actually the most effective, not in the long term. It may appeal to our authoritarian impulses to try to punish these people somehow but the truth is that there's very little we can do to them.

  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    Monwyn wrote: »
    Tastyfish wrote: »
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    I cannot tell you how nauseating I feel after having to discuss a fucking shooter plan with my wife today.

    I get to run the fucking drills with kids in a month.

    That this is considered to be an equal risk as a fire is madness. Is it actually just madness though? I know it happens a lot in the states but not that often - and given you're almost always going to train the shooter at the same time, what's the point other than the security threatre? Except doing a dry run with all the people involved.

    It probably happens more often than actual fires.

    Fires are “relatively” common. But this doesnt mean they all occur during school hours.

    About 75 injuries a year on 4,000 fires of all types, 1000 of which spread beyond the initial object. 320 of which spread beyond the initial room. This includes fires that occur outside of the school year.

    https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/statistics/v14i14.pdf

    22 school shootings this year which involved a death or injury.

    So fires are more common but significantly less dangerous (they used to be insanely dangeorus). The probability you will have a school shooting as compared to a “serious fire” is probably around 10:1. Which is... insane... and makes sense why you would drill

    wbBv3fj.png
  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    Do schools have different alarms for fires and mass shootings? Because the strategy to escape shooters and fires are pretty much opposite.

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited August 2019
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Monwyn wrote: »
    Tastyfish wrote: »
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    I cannot tell you how nauseating I feel after having to discuss a fucking shooter plan with my wife today.

    I get to run the fucking drills with kids in a month.

    That this is considered to be an equal risk as a fire is madness. Is it actually just madness though? I know it happens a lot in the states but not that often - and given you're almost always going to train the shooter at the same time, what's the point other than the security threatre? Except doing a dry run with all the people involved.

    It probably happens more often than actual fires.

    Fires are “relatively” common. But this doesnt mean they all occur during school hours.

    About 75 injuries a year on 4,000 fires of all types, 1000 of which spread beyond the initial object. 320 of which spread beyond the initial room. This includes fires that occur outside of the school year.

    https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/statistics/v14i14.pdf

    22 school shootings this year which involved a death or injury.

    So fires are more common but significantly less dangerous (they used to be insanely dangeorus). The probability you will have a school shooting as compared to a “serious fire” is probably around 10:1. Which is... insane... and makes sense why you would drill

    OTOH, fire drills are not traumatic (well, unless you schedule one in a Michigan January and don't tell kids beforehand so they don't have a coat). Active shooter drills absolutely can be.

    enlightenedbum on
    The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Do schools have different alarms for fires and mass shootings? Because the strategy to escape shooters and fires are pretty much opposite.

    I believe they do sadly. I know when I was in school we did.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
  • WinkyWinky rRegistered User regular
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Tastyfish wrote: »
    Juggernut wrote: »
    Speaking of



    Kevin Roose is a tech columnist at the New York Times.

    Edit: this doesn't mean 8Chan is getting shut down it just means that, as best as I can tell, at midnight tonight, they have no cover against their site getting hacked or targeted via internet fuckery that I don't fully understand.

    IIRC when Cloudfare did this to The Daily Stormer, the site died.
    And when your protector publicly makes this fact available?

    Live by the sword...

    Die by the probabilities? Someone's going to pay for a DDoS on them sooner or later when it's been made public knowledge that they're wide open.

    Count on sooner.

  • Librarian's ghostLibrarian's ghost Librarian, Ghostbuster, and TimSpork Registered User regular
    An active shooter doesn’t have an alarm. In the case of tornado or active shooter someone would go on the PA to announce it. Only the fire has alarms since it is tied into the fire detectors automatically.

    (Switch Friend Code) SW-4910-9735-6014(PSN) timspork (Steam) timspork (XBox) Timspork


  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Do schools have different alarms for fires and mass shootings? Because the strategy to escape shooters and fires are pretty much opposite.

    Yes. Fire drill is your traditional alarm. Shooter situation is usually a PA announcement. Fire is evacuation, shooter is hide unless told an evacuation route is safe.

    The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
  • RedTideRedTide Registered User regular
    Do schools have different alarms for fires and mass shootings? Because the strategy to escape shooters and fires are pretty much opposite.

    What fire drills and active shooter drills have in common is that teachers need to maintain accountability for students.

    Fire drills need this because one of the few ways a student would ever be lost to a fire (with modern building codes and sprinkler systems) is being overcome by smoke because they were "lost" and did not evacuate an idlh.

    Active shooter drills largely revolve around shelter in place and trying to secure the classroom although as we've entered our third decade in the post Columbine US there is now some debate that this is the most prudent course of action.

    RedTide#1907 on Battle.net
    Come Overwatch with meeeee
  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    It seems like new schools should be designed with an awareness of active shooters. Classrooms tend to have only one exit, which means that children can be trapped in them. There must be a better way.

  • Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    In case anyone wants to see it, Anderson Cooper opened his segment with a blisteringly brutal speech.


    Brian is the chief media correspondent for CNN.

  • KyouguKyougu Registered User regular
    I grew up in El Paso.

    I been to the area where the shootings happened thousands of times most likely.

    My brother waited in line in that Wal-Mart to pick up the PS2 and we would later our GBA there and walk to the mall to pick up games.

    This fucking hurts.

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    It seems like new schools should be designed with an awareness of active shooters. Classrooms tend to have only one exit, which means that children can be trapped in them. There must be a better way.

    Banning high capacity, rapid firing weapons is a start.

    The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
  • evilmrhenryevilmrhenry Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Remind me why people like Neil deGrasse Tyson again?
    In the past 48hrs, the USA horrifically lost 34 people to mass shootings.

    On average, across any 48hrs, we also lose…

    500 to Medical errors
    300 to the Flu
    250 to Suicide
    200 to Car Accidents
    40 to Homicide via Handgun

    Often our emotions respond more to spectacle than to data.
    I've said it before and I'll say it again - this guy is a fucking asshole.

    Also, aren't a lot of suicides via gun?

  • RedTideRedTide Registered User regular
    It seems like new schools should be designed with an awareness of active shooters. Classrooms tend to have only one exit, which means that children can be trapped in them. There must be a better way.

    Creating a means of egress (besides jumping out the window) for each classroom just creates that many more means of ingress for malicious actors.

    Also most of these school shooters pull a fire alarm ASAP to create confusion and a target rich environment.

    A lack of long narrow hallways would probably do as much as anything to aid victims in their escape.

    RedTide#1907 on Battle.net
    Come Overwatch with meeeee
  • ElldrenElldren Is a woman dammit ceterum censeoRegistered User regular
    It seems like new schools should be designed with an awareness of active shooters. Classrooms tend to have only one exit, which means that children can be trapped in them. There must be a better way.

    Banning high capacity, rapid firing weapons is a start.

    just apply the same federal legal standards necessary to own a machine gun

    nobody commits mass shootings with machine guns

    fuck gendered marketing
  • ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    edited August 2019
    I am seeing more and more news sites reporting that the ohio shooter ostensibly was left leaning, against trump and even more awfully (in terms of the madness of what he did) against guns.

    None of this implies what the right will try to make it imply, ie that somehow he did this because he was left leaning, and that therefore the two incidents are equally politically driven and both sides are to blame etc.

    But yeah prepare for “see Antifa violence leftists are just as bad when will Elizabeth warren take responsibility?!” Bad faith screeching

    Prohass on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Winky wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Winky wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    And in "so open minded their brains fell out", we have arguments to why an 8chan ban would backfire. There's one comment that stood out to me as being emblematic of the poor logic:
    But on the internet, shutting down one community likely means that at least some of its members will easily go to another one that’s often more extreme than the place they just left, perhaps without anyone noticing. For example, according to a joint analysis by the Anti-Defamation League and the National Contagion Research Institute, user bans on Twitter often correlate with spikes in new membership on the “free-speech alternative” to it, Gab, which has become a haven for the alt-right and other hate groups.

    This is a statement that sounds impressive ("if you kick people off Twitter, they go to Gab!") until you actually analyze it. First off, note that they give no numbers, which is a classic way to lie with statistics. If you remove 100k Twitter users for hate and you see a 10k membership spike on Gab, what you actually have is 90k hateful users removed from Twitter who just choose to not take the effort to join a new service. This leads to the other issue with the statement - it's built on a false belief that migrating services on the internet is frictionless, which has been shown repeatedly to not be the case.

    It's not gonna stop till we start treating rhetoric as a real cause of violence and dealing with it appropriately. This isn't about having a fucking dialogue, it's about removing these people and their ideas from the public discourse. Deplatform, ban, silence, etc, etc, etc.

    Deplatforming 8chan will do nothing long term if we don't tackle the problem at the source, which is education and deradicalization. These ideologies will breed like flies if you just keep pushing them to another chan. These people don't just "go away", they never have and they never will. Meanwhile, deradicalization is absolutely possible, "immunizing" people against disinformation can work.

    Killing 8chan is a good short term strategy, but it's not going to solve the problem.

    No, they don't breed like flies. Because deplatforming works. You know what tackling these issues at their source looks like? It looks like nuking things like 8chan from orbit because that is the source of these ideas for many people.

    Again, the way these shootings are linked by ideology and manifestos, one to the other, is yet more proof of the basic fact that you have to shut down the spread of this rhetoric and these ideas.

    8chan didn't create white supremacy, it's one in a long laundry list of platforms for vocalizing these ideas, and what do you propose? We wait until someone from a platform commits an act of terrorism and then shut it down? We will be playing whack-a-mole forever. We preemptively shut down websites we think might be risks for growing white supremacists (who often are using coded language, etc)? How would that make us any better than China? "Nuke it from orbit" might be the most emotionally satisfying choice but it is not actually the most effective, not in the long term. It may appeal to our authoritarian impulses to try to punish these people somehow but the truth is that there's very little we can do to them.

    No, it is absolutely one of the most effective tactics and your entire attitude here is defeatist bullshit. It's a silly attempt to make this about "emotional appeal" while you ignore the actual power of these tactics. Deplatforming works. You can absolutely stomp these networks into the ground. You can shut down these sites and they don't just pop back up again. There's several examples given up thread even. You can massively impede the spread of these ideas if you want to.

  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Remind me why people like Neil deGrasse Tyson again?
    In the past 48hrs, the USA horrifically lost 34 people to mass shootings.

    On average, across any 48hrs, we also lose…

    500 to Medical errors
    300 to the Flu
    250 to Suicide
    200 to Car Accidents
    40 to Homicide via Handgun

    Often our emotions respond more to spectacle than to data.
    I've said it before and I'll say it again - this guy is a fucking asshole.

    Also, aren't a lot of suicides via gun?

    Huh, now that I look at the post more carefully, handguns are right on there.

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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  • WinkyWinky rRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Winky wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Winky wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    And in "so open minded their brains fell out", we have arguments to why an 8chan ban would backfire. There's one comment that stood out to me as being emblematic of the poor logic:
    But on the internet, shutting down one community likely means that at least some of its members will easily go to another one that’s often more extreme than the place they just left, perhaps without anyone noticing. For example, according to a joint analysis by the Anti-Defamation League and the National Contagion Research Institute, user bans on Twitter often correlate with spikes in new membership on the “free-speech alternative” to it, Gab, which has become a haven for the alt-right and other hate groups.

    This is a statement that sounds impressive ("if you kick people off Twitter, they go to Gab!") until you actually analyze it. First off, note that they give no numbers, which is a classic way to lie with statistics. If you remove 100k Twitter users for hate and you see a 10k membership spike on Gab, what you actually have is 90k hateful users removed from Twitter who just choose to not take the effort to join a new service. This leads to the other issue with the statement - it's built on a false belief that migrating services on the internet is frictionless, which has been shown repeatedly to not be the case.

    It's not gonna stop till we start treating rhetoric as a real cause of violence and dealing with it appropriately. This isn't about having a fucking dialogue, it's about removing these people and their ideas from the public discourse. Deplatform, ban, silence, etc, etc, etc.

    Deplatforming 8chan will do nothing long term if we don't tackle the problem at the source, which is education and deradicalization. These ideologies will breed like flies if you just keep pushing them to another chan. These people don't just "go away", they never have and they never will. Meanwhile, deradicalization is absolutely possible, "immunizing" people against disinformation can work.

    Killing 8chan is a good short term strategy, but it's not going to solve the problem.

    No, they don't breed like flies. Because deplatforming works. You know what tackling these issues at their source looks like? It looks like nuking things like 8chan from orbit because that is the source of these ideas for many people.

    Again, the way these shootings are linked by ideology and manifestos, one to the other, is yet more proof of the basic fact that you have to shut down the spread of this rhetoric and these ideas.

    8chan didn't create white supremacy, it's one in a long laundry list of platforms for vocalizing these ideas, and what do you propose? We wait until someone from a platform commits an act of terrorism and then shut it down? We will be playing whack-a-mole forever. We preemptively shut down websites we think might be risks for growing white supremacists (who often are using coded language, etc)? How would that make us any better than China? "Nuke it from orbit" might be the most emotionally satisfying choice but it is not actually the most effective, not in the long term. It may appeal to our authoritarian impulses to try to punish these people somehow but the truth is that there's very little we can do to them.

    No, it is absolutely one of the most effective tactics and your entire attitude here is defeatist bullshit. It's a silly attempt to make this about "emotional appeal" while you ignore the actual power of these tactics. Deplatforming works. You can absolutely stomp these networks into the ground. You can shut down these sites and they don't just pop back up again. There's several examples given up thread even. You can massively impede the spread of these ideas if you want to.

    I’m not even disagreeing with the tactic, we absolutely should deplatform, I’m telling you that we also have to educate and deradicalize. We absolutely have to go after the means of disinformation, but we also have to go after the ideas themselves. Otherwise you are sweeping a problem under the rug so you don’t have to look at it, you are not creating a society that is resilient against it the next time it comes back, which will be all too soon given how many people have something to gain for themselves in fostering it.

  • WinkyWinky rRegistered User regular
    We are not going to be able to just shut down 8chan and then clap ourselves on the back and say “job well done, we defeated domestic right wing terrorism!”

  • TynnanTynnan seldom correct, never unsure Registered User regular
    Winky wrote: »
    We are not going to be able to just shut down 8chan and then clap ourselves on the back and say “job well done, we defeated domestic right wing terrorism!”

    I don’t think there’s a single person advocating for deplatforming 8chan who is making this assumption.

This discussion has been closed.