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Defining the Left in the USA

DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
How do you define the Left in the USA?

The USA skews considerably more conservative, both economically and socially, than most of the world.

Issues like gun control, quiltbag rights, reproductive Rights, healthcare, anti trust laws, workers rights, consumer protections, and many more, the USA is considerably further right than anywhere else on the planet that claims to be a representative democracy.

Do you define the Left in the context of the USA, or inline with the rest of the planet?

Is Bernie Sanders a leftist, or is he a somewhat liberal centrist?

Is Biden a centrist or a conservative?

I play games on ps3 and ps4. My PSN is DouglasDanger.
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Posts

  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    I dont think the US needs a white balanced political spectrum. We have a ton of right wingers, a ton of centriste and some liberals and a few moderate leftists with most far leftists being laughed out of the room.

    FANTOMASJulius
  • CptKemzikCptKemzik Registered User regular
    edited August 13
    Reproductive rights and LGBTQI rights in the US are in fact considerably more progressive than a fair number of other representative democracies, and making a claim like that smacks of both ignorance of other countries' political economies, and a myopic viewpoint that the US is the worstest most terriblist place ever. Note that this doesn't mean the aforementioned categories of rights aren't under attack in this nation, and that there isn't much, much, more work to be done.

    Furthermore, "the rest of the planet" has just as much of a kaleidoscopic interpretation of what "The Left" is as the US. I would agree that the us both overuses "liberal" as a synonym for "left" and "progressive" and has historically lacked a traditional social democratic/labor party equivalent to the ones in Europe (note that some of these parties however are certainly to the right of the Democratic party when it comes to things like immigration and the previously listed reproductive and LGBTQI rights). Had the US socialist party not been dismantled through various state and political acts during (and in the wake of) the world wars it may have been a different story.

    Bernie is comfortably in the social democratic tradition, an FDR Democrat "at worst," and to call him a liberal centrist again displays a myopic and ignorant perspective on what goes on with other countries.

    CptKemzik on
    KanaP10AngelHedgieenlightenedbumspool32shrykemcdermottMan in the MistsVishNubtyniczepherinFlying CouchHefflingMonwynStabbity StyleMegaMekMaijinamuroLanlaornZonugalEncNovember FifthA Kobold's KoboldShadowhopejmcdonaldHappylilElfTofystedetha5ehrenSolventHacksaw
  • urahonkyurahonky Dayton, OHRegistered User regular
    Wait... What are quiltbag rights?

  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    edited August 13
    urahonky wrote: »
    Wait... What are quiltbag rights?

    It's the very unfortunate LGBT+ acronym.

    OP has forgotten that India exists while writing the post...

    edit: the OP question isn't really answerable because of the fundamental flaw inherent in assuming the rest of the planet defines it the same way - Brazilians and Indians and South Koreans and Germans do not share a leftist definition. But I still think it should be considered within the context of the electorate where it operates. My left is not your left, but that's OK. We have different history, internal stresses, and political drivers, we should have different definitions.

    spool32 on
    CptKemzikmcdermottCaptain InertiazepherinAridholA Kobold's KoboldShadowhopeHappylilElfNitsua
  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    edited August 13
    urahonky wrote: »
    Wait... What are quiltbag rights?

    Queer/Questioning
    Undecided
    Intersex
    Lesbian
    Trans
    Bi
    Asexual
    Gay/Genderqueer

    Lanz on
    waNkm4k.jpg?1
    Zilla360tyniczepherinMegaMekZonugaljoshofalltradesHacksaw
  • CptKemzikCptKemzik Registered User regular
    edited August 14
    spool32 wrote: »
    urahonky wrote: »
    Wait... What are quiltbag rights?

    It's the very unfortunate LGBT+ acronym.

    OP has forgotten that India exists while writing the post...

    Yeah let's not forget the whole Kashmir thing going on right now, in addition to the myriad Intra-Indian affairs.

    Also I learned this year that abortion isn't fully legal in New Zealand (excepting extreme circumstances like rape/incest, health of mother, etc). New Zealand, where Jacinda Arden is PM and they're overseeing a gun buyback program!

    CptKemzik on
    spool32
  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    CptKemzik wrote: »
    spool32 wrote: »
    urahonky wrote: »
    Wait... What are quiltbag rights?

    It's the very unfortunate LGBT+ acronym.

    OP has forgotten that India exists while writing the post...

    Yeah let's not forget the whole Kashmir thing going on right now, in addition to the myriad Intra-Indian affairs.

    Also I learned abortion isn't fully legal in New Zealand this year (excepting extreme circumstances like rape/incest, health of mother, etc). New Zealand, where Jacinda Arden is PM and they're overseeing a gun buyback program!

    Divorce wasn't legalized in Ireland until 1996. Abortion wasn't legal until this fucking year and even then only until week 12.

    SleepCptKemzikShadowhope
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Any definition of "left" in the US has to prioritize racial equality and more generally a commitment to a multicultural democracy. Which is a problem that every western democracy struggles with as soon as there are non-white (or in a lot of Europe, different kinds of white) people there.

    See Brexit in the UK, the French and German persecution of their Muslim minorities, etc.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
    spool32CptKemzikCaptain InertiaLabelMillMegaMekLanlaornKristmas KthulhuA Kobold's KoboldShadowhopejmcdonalda5ehrenHacksaw
  • CptKemzikCptKemzik Registered User regular
    Let's not forget the range of countries (literally and metaphorically) to our south in Latin America on these issues either!

    That OP is just one big "see me after class" hot take honestly.

    mcdermottspool32AridholLanlaornEncA Kobold's KoboldShadowhopea5ehren
  • urahonkyurahonky Dayton, OHRegistered User regular
    Lanz wrote: »
    urahonky wrote: »
    Wait... What are quiltbag rights?

    Queer/Questioning
    Undecided
    Intersex
    Lesbian
    Trans
    Bi
    Asexual
    Gay/Genderqueer

    Woah! Awesome, thanks!

  • MortiousMortious The Nightmare Begins Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    edited August 14
    CptKemzik wrote: »
    spool32 wrote: »
    urahonky wrote: »
    Wait... What are quiltbag rights?

    It's the very unfortunate LGBT+ acronym.

    OP has forgotten that India exists while writing the post...

    Yeah let's not forget the whole Kashmir thing going on right now, in addition to the myriad Intra-Indian affairs.

    Also I learned abortion isn't fully legal in New Zealand this year (excepting extreme circumstances like rape/incest, health of mother, etc). New Zealand, where Jacinda Arden is PM and they're overseeing a gun buyback program!

    Abortion rights in NZ isn't great if you're poor.

    If you can afford the time/effort/money to doctor shop you're fine.

    Which is terrible, and should be fixed. But you can understand why there hasn't been a super hard push to fix it.

    Mortious on
    Move to New Zealand
    It’s not a very important country most of the time
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/mortious
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    I typically define the political left as identifying with (idealogically or practically) the Labour movement and I think that applies to the US as well. It is a primarily economic distinction, though I do believe that the Labour movement must be fundamentally a movement of women's liberation, LGBTQ rights, minority representation, anti-border, anti-nationalist etc.

    This is why I'd never call a lot of the Dems Leftists: they are not fundamentally aligned with the movement, they are Liberal Market Capitalists. That is not Leftism.

    Styrofoam SammichtynicKaputaCrimson KingThe Cow Kingdispatch.oMegaMekBloodsheedKristmas KthulhujakobaggerjoshofalltradesJuliusHappy Little MachineHacksawLoveIsUnity
  • KaputaKaputa Registered User regular
    Internationalism is an important part of socialism, so as a socialist it doesn't make much sense to restrict my notion of leftism to the context of American politics.

    That said, I think the term "left" is pretty vague in general, so the thread could probably benefit from trying to define the term itself. People talk about being "left" on issues like immigration and gun control (this one is even more confusing because socialists tend to be more pro-gun than liberals), but it's not entirely clear to me what abstract feature those issues share with collectivist vs capitalist economies. Political economy is the only arena where the dichotomy seems wholly sensible to me.

    Styrofoam SammichCptKemzik
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited August 14
    Solar wrote: »
    I typically define the political left as identifying with (idealogically or practically) the Labour movement and I think that applies to the US as well. It is a primarily economic distinction, though I do believe that the Labour movement must be fundamentally a movement of women's liberation, LGBTQ rights, minority representation, anti-border, anti-nationalist etc.

    This is why I'd never call a lot of the Dems Leftists: they are not fundamentally aligned with the movement, they are Liberal Market Capitalists. That is not Leftism.

    Traditionally it's been not all of these things in many places and even none of these things sometimes.

    I think trying to break this down into a simplistic left-right framework really breaks down completely the instant you go multi-national. There's a lot of variation in political culture between even similar countries.

    shryke on
    CptKemzikFeralKanaFlying CouchMan in the MistsYoshisummonsHefflingA Kobold's KoboldShadowhopejmcdonaldHappylilElfa5ehren
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    Leftism just exists on a spectrum of how much power and wealth is divided in society. The existence of one kind doesnt preclude another.

    Julius
  • CptKemzikCptKemzik Registered User regular
    edited August 14
    Solar wrote: »
    I typically define the political left as identifying with (idealogically or practically) the Labour movement and I think that applies to the US as well. It is a primarily economic distinction, though I do believe that the Labour movement must be fundamentally a movement of women's liberation, LGBTQ rights, minority representation, anti-border, anti-nationalist etc.

    This is why I'd never call a lot of the Dems Leftists: they are not fundamentally aligned with the movement, they are Liberal Market Capitalists. That is not Leftism.

    I mean social liberalism has been a thing since the 19th century, and while that certainly entails class conflict (or at least class tensions) with the working classes who would gravitate to labor/social democratic (or even outright DemSoc) parties, I certainly think there are liberals who are sympathetic to the labor movement. Now I would state emphatically that not all liberals are leftists, but some liberals? I would say they're at least left-adjacent.

    Denmark's social Democrats (now governing the country in a coalition) were ready to do a fascism lite this year on folks immigrating to the country, and it was the liberals who pushed back on gross things like confiscation of folks' possessions and holding foreign nationals convicted of crimes offshore.

    CptKemzik on
  • FoefallerFoefaller Registered User regular
    I remember being suprised when visiting the UK politics thread and learned how Labour's leadership is pro-Brexit and tolerant of antisemitism (but God forbid you stand against Corbyn), and the Scottish National Party are still stuck on the "Are trans people people?" Phase of LGTBQ acceptance.

    steam_sig.png
    spool32Shadowhope
  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    I am trying to find a useful mindset, I guess

    You have authoritarianism versus libertarianism, right?

    There's a lot of snark and sarcasm here that I don't think is helpful.

    I play games on ps3 and ps4. My PSN is DouglasDanger.
    FANTOMASKristmas Kthulhu
  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    You can have "socially left" and "economically left" and they don't always exist in the same person.

    dispatch.oShadowhopeTofystedeth
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    I am trying to find a useful mindset, I guess

    You have authoritarianism versus libertarianism, right?

    There's a lot of snark and sarcasm here that I don't think is helpful.

    Best rule of thumb Ive read was measuring on two axis of equality and central control.

  • CptKemzikCptKemzik Registered User regular
    I am trying to find a useful mindset, I guess

    You have authoritarianism versus libertarianism, right?

    There's a lot of snark and sarcasm here that I don't think is helpful.

    Maybe don't opine in a thread you made that the US is "considerably further right than anywhere else on the planet that claims to be a representative democracy" then?

    If you're going to come out guns blazing rhetorically, have at least some receipts in the back pocket.

    spool32mcdermottJusticeforPlutoAridholHefflinglunchbox12682LostNinjaLanlaornZonugalHavelock2.0November FifthA Kobold's Koboldjmcdonald
  • BrainleechBrainleech Registered User regular
    The problem is this is a time of political change where the democratic party is going back to the left leaving behind the centralists. Never has a era of political change gone smooth.

    Kaputa
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    The fundamental difference between us and other representative democracies isn't that our laws are particularly illiberal. It's that our democratic system has some severe flaws:

    1) we have a congressional/presidential democracy instead of a parliamentary democracy (or a parliamentary/semi-presidential democracy)

    2) our elections are FPTP & winner take all.

    1 + 2 ensure that we can only have two viable political parties and those two parties will trend towards the ideological center, except...

    3) our electoral system privileges rural and low-density-suburb voters (not merely with the electoral college, but in both houses of Congress as well)

    so the ideological mean of the two parties is not the true national average, but one that is skewed much closer to rural voters

    As long as rural voters are primarily right-wing (which wasn't always the case in our nation's history, but has been increasingly the case since industrialization), this means that our electoral center of gravity is tilted to the right.

    Consequently, it's inevitable that we'll have a centrist party (Democrats) and a right-wing party (Republicans) with no true left wing to balance them out.

    This situation could change with significant enough demographic shifts, but don't hold your breath. The advantages (right-wing) party figured out that they can use their disproportionate political power to further corrupt the electoral system, which will allow them to cancel out demographic changes for a long, long time.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
    AistanKaputatynicIncenjucarCptKemzikArchLabel38thDoeKristmas KthulhuA Kobold's KoboldTofystedetha5ehrenjoshofalltradesHappy Little MachineHacksaw
  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    I am trying to find a useful mindset, I guess

    You have authoritarianism versus libertarianism, right?

    There's a lot of snark and sarcasm here that I don't think is helpful.

    Well step one of finding a useful mindset is to break out of this idea that we're the regressive hellhole and everywhere else is way more enlightened and progressive , particularly when 'everywhere else' seems to have left off the largest democracy on earth and most of the ones south of the equator.

    that's not snark, I'm being serious here. You can't think that way and arrive at anything approaching a defensible or informative position.

    HefflingLanlaorn
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Solar wrote: »
    I typically define the political left as identifying with (idealogically or practically) the Labour movement and I think that applies to the US as well. It is a primarily economic distinction, though I do believe that the Labour movement must be fundamentally a movement of women's liberation, LGBTQ rights, minority representation, anti-border, anti-nationalist etc.

    This is why I'd never call a lot of the Dems Leftists: they are not fundamentally aligned with the movement, they are Liberal Market Capitalists. That is not Leftism.

    Traditionally it's been not all of these things in many places and even none of these things sometimes.

    I think trying to break this down into a simplistic left-right framework really breaks down completely the instant you go multi-national. There's a lot of variation in political culture between even similar countries.

    These are where leftist politics has failed to be leftist, essentially where leftist movements have failed to properly identify the intersectional needs of a movement that proposes the socio-economic liberation of exploited people.

  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    I typically define the political left as identifying with (idealogically or practically) the Labour movement and I think that applies to the US as well. It is a primarily economic distinction, though I do believe that the Labour movement must be fundamentally a movement of women's liberation, LGBTQ rights, minority representation, anti-border, anti-nationalist etc.

    This is why I'd never call a lot of the Dems Leftists: they are not fundamentally aligned with the movement, they are Liberal Market Capitalists. That is not Leftism.

    I didn't listen to the episode, but on twitter someone posted a clip (I think they said it was on Chapo?) of Michael Moore calling out the bullshit of allowing the framing of the working class as being synonymous with white male who goes to work in a hard hat a lunchbag, and that the working class today is primarily people of color and women.

    waNkm4k.jpg?1
    ShadowhopeJulius
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Solar wrote: »
    I typically define the political left as identifying with (idealogically or practically) the Labour movement and I think that applies to the US as well. It is a primarily economic distinction, though I do believe that the Labour movement must be fundamentally a movement of women's liberation, LGBTQ rights, minority representation, anti-border, anti-nationalist etc.

    This is why I'd never call a lot of the Dems Leftists: they are not fundamentally aligned with the movement, they are Liberal Market Capitalists. That is not Leftism.

    Traditionally it's been not all of these things in many places and even none of these things sometimes.

    I think trying to break this down into a simplistic left-right framework really breaks down completely the instant you go multi-national. There's a lot of variation in political culture between even similar countries.

    These are where leftist politics has failed to be leftist, essentially where leftist movements have failed to properly identify the intersectional needs of a movement that proposes the socio-economic liberation of exploited people.

    Leftists still have to live in society, and they're not immune from cultural messaging - and we live in a society that heavily pushes the idea that white cishetero male is "normal".

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
    Harry Dresden
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Solar wrote: »
    I typically define the political left as identifying with (idealogically or practically) the Labour movement and I think that applies to the US as well. It is a primarily economic distinction, though I do believe that the Labour movement must be fundamentally a movement of women's liberation, LGBTQ rights, minority representation, anti-border, anti-nationalist etc.

    This is why I'd never call a lot of the Dems Leftists: they are not fundamentally aligned with the movement, they are Liberal Market Capitalists. That is not Leftism.

    Traditionally it's been not all of these things in many places and even none of these things sometimes.

    I think trying to break this down into a simplistic left-right framework really breaks down completely the instant you go multi-national. There's a lot of variation in political culture between even similar countries.

    These are where leftist politics has failed to be leftist, essentially where leftist movements have failed to properly identify the intersectional needs of a movement that proposes the socio-economic liberation of exploited people.

    This seems like it's just some sort of definition shell-game. No True Leftist and all that.

    Maybe those those other people just disagree on the basis of those policies while still being left according to a lot of criteria.

    KanaJusticeforPlutoLostNinjajmcdonald
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    I am trying to find a useful mindset, I guess

    You have authoritarianism versus libertarianism, right?

    There's a lot of snark and sarcasm here that I don't think is helpful.

    Well step one of finding a useful mindset is to break out of this idea that we're the regressive hellhole and everywhere else is way more enlightened and progressive , particularly when 'everywhere else' seems to have left off the largest democracy on earth and most of the ones south of the equator.

    that's not snark, I'm being serious here. You can't think that way and arrive at anything approaching a defensible or informative position.

    And the countries in Europe with a strong social democracy tend to elect conservative parties that would like to repeal those policies as soon as there's any hint of a demographic shift.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
    spool32shrykeDouglasDangerCaptain InertiaBigJoeMmcdermottJusticeforPlutoCptKemzikFlying CouchHefflingLabelMan in the MistsStabbity StyleLostNinjaHavelock2.0A Kobold's KoboldThroNiryaHacksaw
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Solar wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Solar wrote: »
    I typically define the political left as identifying with (idealogically or practically) the Labour movement and I think that applies to the US as well. It is a primarily economic distinction, though I do believe that the Labour movement must be fundamentally a movement of women's liberation, LGBTQ rights, minority representation, anti-border, anti-nationalist etc.

    This is why I'd never call a lot of the Dems Leftists: they are not fundamentally aligned with the movement, they are Liberal Market Capitalists. That is not Leftism.

    Traditionally it's been not all of these things in many places and even none of these things sometimes.

    I think trying to break this down into a simplistic left-right framework really breaks down completely the instant you go multi-national. There's a lot of variation in political culture between even similar countries.

    These are where leftist politics has failed to be leftist, essentially where leftist movements have failed to properly identify the intersectional needs of a movement that proposes the socio-economic liberation of exploited people.

    This seems like it's just some sort of definition shell-game. No True Leftist and all that.

    Maybe those those other people just disagree on the basis of those policies while still being left according to a lot of criteria.

    I mean it's my definition, so yeah I can in fact define an ideal Leftism and criticise "leftists" that fall short.

    Styrofoam SammichjoshofalltradesJulius
  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    Feral wrote: »
    The fundamental difference between us and other representative democracies isn't that our laws are particularly illiberal. It's that our democratic system has some severe flaws:

    1) we have a congressional/presidential democracy instead of a parliamentary democracy (or a parliamentary/semi-presidential democracy)

    2) our elections are FPTP & winner take all.

    1 + 2 ensure that we can only have two viable political parties and those two parties will trend towards the ideological center, except...

    3) our electoral system privileges rural and low-density-suburb voters (not merely with the electoral college, but in both houses of Congress as well)

    so the ideological mean of the two parties is not the true national average, but one that is skewed much closer to rural voters

    As long as rural voters are primarily right-wing (which wasn't always the case in our nation's history, but has been increasingly the case since industrialization), this means that our electoral center of gravity is tilted to the right.

    Consequently, it's inevitable that we'll have a centrist party (Democrats) and a right-wing party (Republicans) with no true left wing to balance them out.

    This situation could change with significant enough demographic shifts, but don't hold your breath. The advantages (right-wing) party figured out that they can use their disproportionate political power to further corrupt the electoral system, which will allow them to cancel out demographic changes for a long, long time.

    This post basically explains it. The politics of a country are going to be heavily influenced by the way governments are created in a country.

    Also
    Any definition of "left" in the US has to prioritize racial equality and more generally a commitment to a multicultural democracy. Which is a problem that every western democracy struggles with as soon as there are non-white (or in a lot of Europe, different kinds of white) people there.

    See Brexit in the UK, the French and German persecution of their Muslim minorities, etc.

    This too

    spool32
  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    I am trying to find a useful mindset, I guess

    You have authoritarianism versus libertarianism, right?

    There's a lot of snark and sarcasm here that I don't think is helpful.

    Well step one of finding a useful mindset is to break out of this idea that we're the regressive hellhole and everywhere else is way more enlightened and progressive , particularly when 'everywhere else' seems to have left off the largest democracy on earth and most of the ones south of the equator.

    that's not snark, I'm being serious here. You can't think that way and arrive at anything approaching a defensible or informative position.

    And the countries in Europe with a strong social democracy tend to elect conservative parties that would like to repeal those policies as soon as there's any hint of a demographic shift.

    I don't know if this is actually true, but I think it is the case that the USA is the most demographically heterogeneous democracy by a long stretch. Most EU democracies haven't had to grapple with issues of race to any significant degree and don't exactly come off as shining beacons of liberalism when they do...

    LanlaornThro
  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    I apologise for the Euro centrism of my opening post.

    The USA feels to me, like a classical liberalism capitalism flirting with Christian fascism

    From my limited perspective, at least

    I play games on ps3 and ps4. My PSN is DouglasDanger.
    Kristmas KthulhuJulius
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    Left-wing politics traditionally translate to more equality, whether social or economic.

    However the presence of populist right-wing movements kinda fucks that old French Estates General paradigm over.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    I apologise for the Euro centrism of my opening post.

    The USA feels to me, like a classical liberalism capitalism flirting with Christian fascism

    From my limited perspective, at least

    If you're rural or in a red/purple state it can probably feel like that to an oppressive degree. Urban and suburban areas often are nearly 1:1 to the typical Eurocentric democracies a lot of us idolize. What's never really talked about in more than hushed tones is how often their cultural hegemony plays an extremely large role in this. You shake it up, add in some people that don't quite mesh, and suddenly you're looking at the equivalent to a rural Kentuckian GOP congresscritter.

    The US isn't the greatest in the world, I won't say that, but we're doing remarkably well excluding this, hopefully, small hiccup.

    Ladies.
    spool32Man in the Mists
  • JepheryJephery Registered User regular
    The Left does have to define itself as egalitarian and cosmopolitan.

    There isn't really any such thing as "leftist" economic policy, because a fascist can take any left wing economic proposal that is good, exclude minorities, and turn it into a right wing program on the basis of that exclusion.

    }
    "Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    spool32 wrote: »
    I am trying to find a useful mindset, I guess

    You have authoritarianism versus libertarianism, right?

    There's a lot of snark and sarcasm here that I don't think is helpful.

    Well step one of finding a useful mindset is to break out of this idea that we're the regressive hellhole and everywhere else is way more enlightened and progressive , particularly when 'everywhere else' seems to have left off the largest democracy on earth and most of the ones south of the equator.

    that's not snark, I'm being serious here. You can't think that way and arrive at anything approaching a defensible or informative position.

    And the countries in Europe with a strong social democracy tend to elect conservative parties that would like to repeal those policies as soon as there's any hint of a demographic shift.

    I don't know if this is actually true, but I think it is the case that the USA is the most demographically heterogeneous democracy by a long stretch. Most EU democracies haven't had to grapple with issues of race to any significant degree and don't exactly come off as shining beacons of liberalism when they do...

    We are still so lacking, but because of our enshrinement of white supremacy in our founding (both politically and economically) and the cold-hot-cold (still!) civil war over it, we’ve had to grapple with this issue for longer and more critically than most other countries.

    That being said, we missed out on most of the “fun” about religion (we’re trying to catch up bough!).

    To ebum’s point, the left currently in the US has to prioritize this.

    spool32MegaMek
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    As someone living in the UK who is well aware of the manifest failings of this country, I gotta say you guys really have a rose-tinted view of your country IMO.

    FANTOMASCaedwyr
  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    Jephery wrote: »
    The Left does have to define itself as egalitarian and cosmopolitan.

    Egalitarian, yes. Cosmopolitan, no. You can be a rural leftist.

    spool32shrykeDouglasDangerStyrofoam SammichNobeardFlying CouchBloodsheedKristmas KthulhuMan in the MistsjoshofalltradesHacksaw
  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    As someone living in the UK who is well aware of the manifest failings of this country, I gotta say you guys really have a rose-tinted view of your country IMO.

    idk, I think it's just different. I haven't been overseas since '04 but I was legit blown away by how openly, casually, unconsciously racist people the UK, Ireland, Germany, and France all were. But you look at the healthcare system and it's completely different.

    bowen
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