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Minneapolis is on fire.

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    XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    Phasen wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    guys I get that these (and many!) cops are terrible and murderers, but domestic violence, murders, drunk driving, robbery, etc. etc. etc. are still things, and I somehow doubt they'd all go away if we 'got rid of cops'

    Don't look up the statistics of those crimes cross-referenced with police officers.

    I'm aware of them and sort of addressed it in the parentheses.

    rather than abolish enforcement of law, hows about massive police reform and oversight (like actual oversight not self policing)?

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    ShortyShorty touching the meat Intergalactic Cool CourtRegistered User regular
    people say abolish cops because the institution that they would like to see replace police doesn't look anything at all like it, not because they don't believe laws should be enforced

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    PlatyPlaty Registered User regular
    It's the job for you if you want to live your male power fantasy

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    JuggernutJuggernut Registered User regular
    I mean, realistically, neither scenario is ever going to happen.

    You either ask a massive, corrupt organization of good ole boys to stop being racists on their own oh pwetty pwease or you enact vicious, sweeping legislation to completely destroy that organization and start over.

    I dunno. Burning Targets down might actually be the only reasonable solution here.

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    ShortyShorty touching the meat Intergalactic Cool CourtRegistered User regular
    direct action is the only action

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    Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    Platy wrote: »
    It's the job for you if you want to live your male power fantasy

    Well, a job for that

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    ZonugalZonugal (He/Him) The Holiday Armadillo I'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered User regular
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Phasen wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    guys I get that these (and many!) cops are terrible and murderers, but domestic violence, murders, drunk driving, robbery, etc. etc. etc. are still things, and I somehow doubt they'd all go away if we 'got rid of cops'

    Don't look up the statistics of those crimes cross-referenced with police officers.

    I'm aware of them and sort of addressed it in the parentheses.

    rather than abolish enforcement of law, hows about massive police reform and oversight (like actual oversight not self policing)?

    What would corrective, positive, productive oversight look like for a profession which seems to attract some of the worst in our society?

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    SolarSolar Registered User regular
    edited May 2020
    People say "abolish cops" because they are angry and upset about police violence and it is cathartic to do so. I don't think most people realistically think "this is something that we are able to do in our society as it is." If they do, we'll yeah I like watching Star Trek too

    This event is definitely an example of how the US police is often noticeably, egrariously fucked in terms of how it operates though, even for cops (and there are hundreds of PDs in the US, some way worse than others). Like they just... Use violence. All the time. It's the only thing they know how to do. Use violence and the threat thereof

    Solar on
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    AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist The Skies of HiigaraRegistered User regular
    Jesus.

    I knew the basic details, and Akilah Hughes had a very powerful speech about it on yesterday's What A Day podcast... but I didn't realize the "burning" was so literal and widespread. I figured there were riots. But... damn.

    The cops absolutely should be in jail - the murderer and the accomplices who protected him.

    He/Him | "A boat is always safest in the harbor, but that’s not why we build boats." | "If you run, you gain one. If you move forward, you gain two." - Suletta Mercury, G-Witch
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    PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    People say "abolish cops" because they are angry and upset about police violence and it is cathartic to do so. I don't think most people realistically think "this is something that we are able to do in our society as it is." If they do, we'll yeah I like watching Star Trek too

    This event is definitely an example of how the US police is often noticeably, egrariously fucked in terms of how it operates though, even for cops (and there are hundreds of PDs in the US, some way worse than others). Like they just... Use violence. All the time. It's the only thing they know how to do. Use violence and the threat thereof

    Yeah, I'm pretty sure most of them mean more tear the whole thing down and start over because it's easier than trying to fix it.

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    ph blakeph blake Registered User regular
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Phasen wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    guys I get that these (and many!) cops are terrible and murderers, but domestic violence, murders, drunk driving, robbery, etc. etc. etc. are still things, and I somehow doubt they'd all go away if we 'got rid of cops'

    Don't look up the statistics of those crimes cross-referenced with police officers.

    I'm aware of them and sort of addressed it in the parentheses.

    rather than abolish enforcement of law, hows about massive police reform and oversight (like actual oversight not self policing)?

    Abolishing cops doesn't mean abolishing law, and the fact that police = the law is so ingrained into people's minds is one of the greatest PR coups of all time.

    7h8wnycre6vs.png
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    KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    Shorty wrote: »
    SimBen wrote: »
    I can believe that. Cops don’t arrest cops.

    don't be ridiculous

    they'll happily arrest cops who give evidence against other cops

    they don't arrest them

    the cops giving evidence just "commit suicide"

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    JuggernutJuggernut Registered User regular
    edited May 2020
    Besides I thought the whole reason conservatives want a billion fucking guns is so they can handle their business because you cant rely on the cops but as soon as you start talking about police reform it's all kinds of screeching and Blue Lives Matter and rule of law n shit.

    I'm starting to get the impression we might only keep cops around as White Sturmtruppen who can legally kick, shoot, and strangle black folks.

    Juggernut on
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    KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    ph blake wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Phasen wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    guys I get that these (and many!) cops are terrible and murderers, but domestic violence, murders, drunk driving, robbery, etc. etc. etc. are still things, and I somehow doubt they'd all go away if we 'got rid of cops'

    Don't look up the statistics of those crimes cross-referenced with police officers.

    I'm aware of them and sort of addressed it in the parentheses.

    rather than abolish enforcement of law, hows about massive police reform and oversight (like actual oversight not self policing)?

    Abolishing cops doesn't mean abolishing law, and the fact that police = the law is so ingrained into people's minds is one of the greatest PR coups of all time.

    I'm slowly realizing how much of our perception of police derives from shit like Law & Order and CSI and other shows/movies that are about as realistic as an MCU film.

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    I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    ph blake wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Phasen wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    guys I get that these (and many!) cops are terrible and murderers, but domestic violence, murders, drunk driving, robbery, etc. etc. etc. are still things, and I somehow doubt they'd all go away if we 'got rid of cops'

    Don't look up the statistics of those crimes cross-referenced with police officers.

    I'm aware of them and sort of addressed it in the parentheses.

    rather than abolish enforcement of law, hows about massive police reform and oversight (like actual oversight not self policing)?

    Abolishing cops doesn't mean abolishing law, and the fact that police = the law is so ingrained into people's minds is one of the greatest PR coups of all time.

    Police are so ingrained in people's minds that they will call the police to try and stop someone from taking their own life! Because nothing keeps someone safe like a bunch of armed thugs trying to arrest them at gunpoint "for their own protection"

    liEt3nH.png
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    XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    ph blake wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Phasen wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    guys I get that these (and many!) cops are terrible and murderers, but domestic violence, murders, drunk driving, robbery, etc. etc. etc. are still things, and I somehow doubt they'd all go away if we 'got rid of cops'

    Don't look up the statistics of those crimes cross-referenced with police officers.

    I'm aware of them and sort of addressed it in the parentheses.

    rather than abolish enforcement of law, hows about massive police reform and oversight (like actual oversight not self policing)?

    Abolishing cops doesn't mean abolishing law, and the fact that police = the law is so ingrained into people's minds is one of the greatest PR coups of all time.

    how else would it get enforced? (serious question)

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    RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Isn't another problem with police reform how massively decentralised it is? With something like 14,000 different police forces, many feeling they don't answer to anyone?

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    XehalusXehalus Registered User regular
    this was one of the most sadistic things I've ever watched

    people literally crossing the street and begging the officer to stop

    and then the idiot keeps going after he kills him and has to have paramedics tell him to get off

    what a fucking disgrace

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    PoorochondriacPoorochondriac Ah, man Ah, jeezRegistered User regular
    Do you think local news outlets are gonna just replay old footage of cops playing basketball with kids, or are they gonna throw together some new thing about cops playing "socially distanced" basketball with kids over a backyard fence or something

    The usual damage-control PR playbook ain't really available in a pandemic

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    AbsalonAbsalon Lands of Always WinterRegistered User regular
    If people are upset about looting now they should probably make the government extend the rent freezing ASAP.

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    JansonJanson Registered User regular
    edited May 2020
    Shorty wrote: »
    the thing about cops is that they aren't good at stopping those things

    domestic violence in particular needs social workers, not cops, at least forty percent of whom are themselves domestic abusers

    Yeah, that is at least forty percent, like forty percent verified, not even merely guessed at

    I personally have a few ex-cop-wives friended on social media and not a single one wasn’t horribly abused by their ex-spouse

    Janson on
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    DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    @Xaquin

    Here's one idea

    https://youtu.be/Hmy1jjRnl8I

    Rotating civil service, basically

    Also, prisons as the exist in the modern Western world would be abolished

    There would be a big focus on rehabilitation, with an extremely small fraction of a percentage point of truly dangerous people being in functional exile, while still having all of their needs met

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    OlivawOlivaw good name, isn't it? the foot of mt fujiRegistered User regular
    Hobnail wrote: »


    I assume this is quite good and informative, I was up till o'darkthirty watching the Unicorn Riot livestream which I can garuntee is quite good and should get some sort of award or somethin

    https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2020/05/27/the-boogaloo-movement-is-not-what-you-think/

    It’s articles like this that bring me a deep and profound feeling of hopelessness

    America ain’t gonna get outta this one, huh

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    I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    also not to sound like i'm shitting on xaquin but one of the problems with going "what do we replace it with?" is like

    asking how we make sure the house doesn't catch on fire again while it's still on fire

    you can value that question, but we have to stop the fire

    liEt3nH.png
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    ShortyShorty touching the meat Intergalactic Cool CourtRegistered User regular
    @Xaquin

    Here's one idea

    https://youtu.be/Hmy1jjRnl8I

    Rotating civil service, basically

    Also, prisons as the exist in the modern Western world would be abolished

    There would be a big focus on rehabilitation, with an extremely small fraction of a percentage point of truly dangerous people being in functional exile, while still having all of their needs met

    yes

    there are people who cannot safely integrate with society and in the world I'd like to live in they still get to not be fucking tortured

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    DepressperadoDepressperado I just wanted to see you laughing in the pizza rainRegistered User regular
    I'm gonna move to a lighthouse and hang myself I think

    I'll see you guys when this obvious failure of a simulation gets reset

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    3cl1ps33cl1ps3 I will build a labyrinth to house the cheese Registered User regular
    Olivaw wrote: »
    Hobnail wrote: »


    I assume this is quite good and informative, I was up till o'darkthirty watching the Unicorn Riot livestream which I can garuntee is quite good and should get some sort of award or somethin

    https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2020/05/27/the-boogaloo-movement-is-not-what-you-think/

    It’s articles like this that bring me a deep and profound feeling of hopelessness

    America ain’t gonna get outta this one, huh

    I mean, we might, but it will probably resemble something like the LA Riots but in the entire country at once.

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    KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    Do you think local news outlets are gonna just replay old footage of cops playing basketball with kids, or are they gonna throw together some new thing about cops playing "socially distanced" basketball with kids over a backyard fence or something

    The usual damage-control PR playbook ain't really available in a pandemic

    My bet is they bring out the big guns, i.e. really cute police dogs

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    ph blakeph blake Registered User regular
    Xaquin wrote: »
    ph blake wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Phasen wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    guys I get that these (and many!) cops are terrible and murderers, but domestic violence, murders, drunk driving, robbery, etc. etc. etc. are still things, and I somehow doubt they'd all go away if we 'got rid of cops'

    Don't look up the statistics of those crimes cross-referenced with police officers.

    I'm aware of them and sort of addressed it in the parentheses.

    rather than abolish enforcement of law, hows about massive police reform and oversight (like actual oversight not self policing)?

    Abolishing cops doesn't mean abolishing law, and the fact that police = the law is so ingrained into people's minds is one of the greatest PR coups of all time.

    how else would it get enforced? (serious question)



    This is probably the best thing I've seen on reforming vs abolishing the police (right click > open image in new tab, because god is that chart impossible to read on twitter)..

    As to the "how would laws be enforced?" question, I would say slowly and deliberately. Like, I understand that there are some crimes that need a more immediate response than others in order to limit harm, but the answer can't be "send in the guys with guns" for everything from speeding to selling cigarettes without a license, it just can't.

    Basically the problem is that crimes committed by capital interests always get the full protection of the slowly moving processes and steps of the legal system, whereas individual offenses just fucking don't (especially when the individual is poor and/or not white). Like, think about how different it is to be issued a subpoena or grand jury summons as your first interaction with law enforcement, compared to "this cop stopped me and now I might get summarily executed because he made a whoopsie."

    7h8wnycre6vs.png
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    AphostileAphostile San Francisco, CARegistered User regular
    I think I get the general sentiment of this abolish cops scenario but what do you do when someone steps out of the bounds of this idyllic society? A serial robber or assaulter perhaps?

    Your rotating civil service idea means that basically everyone needs to take on the added risk of being stabbed at some point (much more than just being a random citizen getting stabbed, because you are tasked with stopping them)?

    Nothing. Matters.
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    DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    Aphostile wrote: »
    I think I get the general sentiment of this abolish cops scenario but what do you do when someone steps out of the bounds of this idyllic society? A serial robber or assaulter perhaps?

    Your rotating civil service idea means that basically everyone needs to take on the added risk of being stabbed at some point (much more than just being a random citizen getting stabbed, because you are tasked with stopping them)?

    Did you watch the video? It explains that

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    PoorochondriacPoorochondriac Ah, man Ah, jeezRegistered User regular
    People getting conflict deescalation training in high school would make the world a dramatically better place, I reckon

    Teaching people how to resolve tense situations without calling in armed white supremacists seems like at least one good step for society to take

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    JansonJanson Registered User regular
    I'm gonna move to a lighthouse and hang myself I think

    I'll see you guys when this obvious failure of a simulation gets reset

    I know you’re (hopefully) being facetious but...

    As depressing as this all is, there’s plenty to be hopeful about and plenty to live for.

    I mean, look at this thread. We’re a group of young to middle aged people many of whom have careers and children; we’re no longer defiant teens holed up at our computers (which is how I started out online, if I’m honest) and we’re having a serious discussion about abolishing the police.

    The riot photos I saw showed a diverse group, too. There’re plenty of people in support of this, and in general people who support the govt and police *are* in a growing minority - which is why they’re desperately fighting mail-in ballots and other things that’d see them quickly lose control.

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    ShortyShorty touching the meat Intergalactic Cool CourtRegistered User regular
    "more training" assumes that the powers that be are good at identifying desirable practice, and they absolutely are not

    police already do lots of training, and hey, the most heavily-trained police in this country, the FBI, still send lots of innocent folks to jail, and are still racist as all fuck

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    ShortyShorty touching the meat Intergalactic Cool CourtRegistered User regular
    People getting conflict deescalation training in high school would make the world a dramatically better place, I reckon

    Teaching people how to resolve tense situations without calling in armed white supremacists seems like at least one good step for society to take

    awhile back the couple who lives down the hall from me were getting physical with each other in the alley, and not in the fun way

    it sure would have been nice to have literally any other option in that situation!

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    I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    Shorty wrote: »
    "more training" assumes that the powers that be are good at identifying desirable practice, and they absolutely are not

    police already do lots of training, and hey, the most heavily-trained police in this country, the FBI, still send lots of innocent folks to jail, and are still racist as all fuck

    like at the end of the day the job of the police is to Enforce Laws, and even if we get a situation where cops do not do murders, the Laws are still entrenched in centuries old bigotry and class warfare

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    AphostileAphostile San Francisco, CARegistered User regular
    Aphostile wrote: »
    I think I get the general sentiment of this abolish cops scenario but what do you do when someone steps out of the bounds of this idyllic society? A serial robber or assaulter perhaps?

    Your rotating civil service idea means that basically everyone needs to take on the added risk of being stabbed at some point (much more than just being a random citizen getting stabbed, because you are tasked with stopping them)?

    Did you watch the video? It explains that

    I suppose he answers my question (the solution is a volunteer military). So the answer is, sort of.

    Nothing. Matters.
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    I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    like American Segregation only became illegal 60 years ago. Prior to that, to be a cop, you had to be the kind of person okay with enforcing the law that blacks and whites were not equal and did not deserve equality. You do not change your mind just because it becomes legal. You continue to be a part of the police culture, continue to be a part of training new officers, of promoting your beliefs to those new officers. How many generations of police does it take before someone is comfortable saying "The belief of racial inequality has been fully stamped out from law enforcement"?

    Because it's obviously not 6 decades.

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    JavenJaven Registered User regular
    Enforcement is control, so even if you were to somehow remove all the systemic and cultural baggage that informs and corrupts policing, it's still a profession that is largely going to attract people who actively want to control and subjugate other people.

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