[Police Brutality] Has Caused Ongoing National Protests

BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising OddsRegistered User, Moderator mod
(Shamelessly stolen from Eddy)

I am compiling as much information in this OP for quick reference as I can. Please let me know if there's anything I could add.

POLICE BRUTALITY VIDEO DOCUMENTATIONS (not nearly comprehensive)

https://2020policebrutality.netlify.app/
https://www.reddit.com/r/2020PoliceBrutality/comments/gvllqc/megathread_current_incident_reports_list/
here's a supercut, spoiled for violence
CHARITIES
state-by-state bail funds: https://bailfunds.github.io/
some good advice here: https://money.com/how-to-help-black-lives-matter-protests/
a wide selection of regional and national funds: https://www.theverge.com/21277358/protests-donate-police-bail-demonstrations-minneapolis-nyc


celebration of black artists in nerdspace
Fantasy subreddit put together a list of black fantasy authors: https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/gtf34j/what_are_some_underrated_sff_books_by_black/
Link to the racial issues tag on Tor's website, for essays and short fiction centered on people of color: https://www.tor.com/tag/racial-issues/
Magazine of black speculative fiction's 2018 science fiction and fantasy writer survey report: https://www.fiyahlitmag.com/blackspecfic/bsfreport-2018/ (and of course, the rest of the site is great for non-sff)

Seek out not just stories of oppression, but those of black joy, promise, hope - celebrate our common humanity. I can personally recommend ross gay's book of poetry catalogue of unabashed gratitude (one poem here: https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/58762/catalog-of-unabashed-gratitude )

A stream of various protests going on nationwide: https://www.twitch .tv/woke
(not directly linked just in case you don't want autoplay)
Two direct links to Facebook profiles where they've been streaming the front line of the protests in Seattle
https://www.facebook.com/brandon.frost.4
https://www.facebook.com/jessica.bundy.79

Also, similar, coverage of the smaller towns doing protests (not nearly comprehensive):
https://twitter.com/annehelen <- seriously if you want some tiny moments of hope, check out her feed
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/annehelenpetersen/black-lives-matter-protests-near-me-small-towns

Tangentially, there is now a self-declared autonomous zone in Seattle. The CAPITOL HILL AUTONOMOUS ZONE (CHAZ)


If you'd like to know more, I follow @anarchomastia on Twitter but it's really hard to get more knowledge unless you're in the Seattle scene

There is a lot of disinformation on social media so always name the source and do a cursory vet of its authenticity/validity. Just check the twitter bio, read a couple tweets on their feed. There will be a lot of primary sources, so go with your gut on those and just warn that it's a rando
Debunked claims:
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/antifa-rumors-spread-local-social-media-no-evidence-n1222486
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/01/technology/george-floyd-misinformation-online.html
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/misinformation-in-action-false-claims-of-antifa-protesters-plague-small-cities-2020-06-02
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/no-the-thurston-county-democrats-did-not-offer-to-pay-anarchists-misinformation-flows-in-wake-of-george-floyd-protests/
https://www.factcheck.org/2020/06/viral-tweet-alert-wasnt-from-antifa/

DEMANDS OF PROTESTERS
PLEASE note that every local protest has its own specific, immediate action items for their respective mayors/councils. BLM's main website is currently down due to what I imagine is insane traffic and possibly DDoS, but here are is a general summary:
https://populardemocracy.org/news-and-publications/black-lives-matter-releases-policy-demands-includes-reparations-and-abolishing
Ending the War on Black People: This includes abolishing the death penalty, mass surveillance in communities of color, the privatization of police, violence against all Blacks (including Black trans, queer and gender nonconforming people) and using a past criminal history as a means to seek a job, housing, license and voting rights.

Reparations: To address the past and current harms that slavery, Jim Crow, and mass incarceration have done to the Black community, BLM is seeking reparations for the wealth extracted from our communities, guaranteed livable income and free access and open admissions to public community colleges, universities, and technical schools, to name a few.

Invest-Divest: Instead of federal, state, and local monies being invested into prisons, police, surveillance, and exploitative corporations, BLM would rather see that invested into long-term safety strategies such as education, local restorative justice services, employment programs, and universal health care.

Economic Justice: This is calling for Black communities to have real collective ownership of wealth in the U.S. This could be achieved with restructuring tax codes, creating federal and state job programs that specifically target the most economically marginalized Black people, breaking up large banks and ensuring better protection for workers.

Community Control: This would include the end of the privatization of education and making sure communities have the power to hire and fire officers, determine disciplinary action, control budgets and policies, and subpoena relevant agency information when needed.

Political Power: To ensure that real democracy can be achieved for all Black people, BLM wants for all political prisoners to be released, eliminating Super Pacs that fund candidates, ensuring election protection, early registration at the age of 16, full access to technology and the internet, and increased funding to HBCU’s.

Other common platforms are:

https://www.versobooks.com/books/2426-the-end-of-policing (free book, insightful on data-driven alternatives to police departments as we know them)

On the justification of looting


What can you do to help and/or get involved?
Apart from physically joining the protests, call your local officials! City councils, mayors, especially in smaller towns are more than willing to take constituent calls. Find your mayors and councils and state legislatures here: https://www.usa.gov/elected-officials
Also this gives you your mayor's contact info and a list of easy-to-implement reforms that have been shown to reduce police violence! https://8cantwait.org/

Donate to local organizations who are setting up basics like medical supplies, food, etc (contact whatever local BLM or Antifa or whatever chapter you can find; mutual aid groups are proliferating across the country especially with Coronavirus) - otherwise, simply donate to one of the funds listed above. A little goes a long way.

HobnailRingo
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Posts

  • -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    their reasons for it are of course bullshit, and they will likely do it anyway whenever they want an excuse to harass or fine or arrest someone, but I do not actually desire for the police to enforce mask orders. I would say the issue is pretty emblematic of the problems with policing in america, which is that after utterly failing to quarantine effectively or distribute ppe freely or educate the public, the only thing left to our imagination is counting on everyone to be personally responsible and punishing the deviants.

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  • Metzger MeisterMetzger Meister Registered User regular
    Well when your nation is a police state there's only so many ways you can solve a problem.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    It's more that at the end of the day, you have to backstop your mask policy or you end up with what a ton of stores do: ask politely and then just let you not wear a mask if you refuse.

    This is literally what the police are for.

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  • Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Are market pressures more effective in that regard than a reluctant police force?

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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus premium Registered User regular
    Are market pressures more effective in that regard than a reluctant police force?

    Considering how many "masks required" policies are "unless they don't have one on in which case don't bother them and let them shop anyway"

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  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Sounds like neither Carmen Best nor her neighbors appreciated the caravan of folks trekking out to her home in Snohomish County to protest her policies as Chief of Seattle PD.

    https://komonews.com/news/local/best-implores-city-council-to-stand-up-for-what-is-right-after-protestors-visit-her-home
    Before this devolves into the new way of doing business by mob rule here in Seattle...

    “Here in Seattle” being used very loosely, of course, by a police chief who doesn’t even live in King County. Like most of her department.

  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    538 has an article up that's not *directly* police brutality related but feeds into it:

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/many-americans-are-convinced-crime-is-rising-in-the-u-s-theyre-wrong/
    None of this has made us safer. And ironically, fear of crime can actually lead to other behaviors that put us at greater risk, like buying and carrying guns. If anxiety about crime keeps Americans from embracing different ways of thinking about criminal justice, that may be doing more harm than good, too. For instance, there’s no real evidence that putting more people behind bars contributed to the decrease in crime or that imprisoning fewer people will raise crime. Instead, a mountain of research points in the opposite direction to problems and inequalities linked to mass incarceration.

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  • HenroidHenroid Seize the Memes Registered User regular
    edited August 3
    I'm posting this for the contrast of how police treat protestors vs how police treat a man who opened fire on them with an automatic weapon.
    Man fires at cops with AK-47 after refusing to wear a mask, police say
    When a cigar shop clerk told Adam Zaborowski on Friday he had to wear a mask in the shop, the 35-year-old angrily refused. Instead, he grabbed two stogies, stormed outside — and then pulled a handgun and shot at the clerk, Bethlehem Township, Pa., police said.

    The next day, cornered near his home, Zaborowski allegedly fired at police with an AK-47, sparking a wild shootout with at least seven officers that ended with him shot multiple times and under arrest.
    Edit - Not to mention police once again taking a violent white criminal alive into custody while non-violent black people (not even criminals) are murdered on location.

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  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited August 3
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Are market pressures more effective in that regard than a reluctant police force?

    Considering how many "masks required" policies are "unless they don't have one on in which case don't bother them and let them shop anyway"

    Way too many stores have had violence to actually risk the liability of making employees actually enforce it. My area's had multiple arsons over it, let alone the assaults and daily petty vandalisms. The liability's on them if an employee gets hurt carrying out their policies, so it's either hire appropriate staff or keep paying worker's comp every time a minimum wage register biscuit gets a cart thrown at him or something.

    Hevach on
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  • FoolOnTheHillFoolOnTheHill PhiladelphiaRegistered User regular
    Are there any good online resources for finding local organized protests to join in?

  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus premium Registered User regular
    Hevach wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Are market pressures more effective in that regard than a reluctant police force?

    Considering how many "masks required" policies are "unless they don't have one on in which case don't bother them and let them shop anyway"

    Way too many stores have had violence to actually risk the liability of making employees actually enforce it. My area's had multiple arsons over it, let alone the assaults and daily petty vandalisms. The liability's on them if an employee gets hurt carrying out their policies, so it's either hire appropriate staff or keep paying worker's comp every time a minimum wage register biscuit gets a cart thrown at him or something.

    Right so have them be ordinances put in place by the government.

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  • MonwynMonwyn Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    I'm posting this for the contrast of how police treat protestors vs how police treat a man who opened fire on them with an automatic weapon.
    Man fires at cops with AK-47 after refusing to wear a mask, police say
    When a cigar shop clerk told Adam Zaborowski on Friday he had to wear a mask in the shop, the 35-year-old angrily refused. Instead, he grabbed two stogies, stormed outside — and then pulled a handgun and shot at the clerk, Bethlehem Township, Pa., police said.

    The next day, cornered near his home, Zaborowski allegedly fired at police with an AK-47, sparking a wild shootout with at least seven officers that ended with him shot multiple times and under arrest.
    Edit - Not to mention police once again taking a violent white criminal alive into custody while non-violent black people (not even criminals) are murdered on location.

    I mean, "shot multiple times" doesn't exactly scream "went out of their way to take him alive"

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  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited August 3
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Hevach wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Are market pressures more effective in that regard than a reluctant police force?

    Considering how many "masks required" policies are "unless they don't have one on in which case don't bother them and let them shop anyway"

    Way too many stores have had violence to actually risk the liability of making employees actually enforce it. My area's had multiple arsons over it, let alone the assaults and daily petty vandalisms. The liability's on them if an employee gets hurt carrying out their policies, so it's either hire appropriate staff or keep paying worker's comp every time a minimum wage register biscuit gets a cart thrown at him or something.

    Right so have them be ordinances put in place by the government.

    And in many states, they absolutely are.

    But with local law enforcement threatening to refuse to enforce, and the fact that you still get to have a confrontation if you ask somebody before calling 5-0...because this will be required to trespass them off the property...you wind up with all the same problems. So even in areas where it's a local or statewide order, with legal consequences for noncompliance, employees are being told to stay hands-off.

    Only way you can shift that calculus it to ensure that penalties for non-enforcement by an establishment are higher than the potential workman's comp claims if a crazy maskhole assaults your people. You have to fine the employer/business for allowing customers to violate.

    mcdermott on
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  • -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    this is beginning to veer beyond the scope of the topic but the vast majority of these stores should still be closed to the public to begin with and the ones that do need to be open should focus on delivery, pickup, and extremely limited in-store shopping in that order. if we could do that right we wouldn't need to worry so much about cops giving out tickets for not wearing a mask.

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  • RingoRingo HE KEEPS REPEATING THE LINE I'M GONNA CRY BLEASE LET HIM LIVE YOU MADE ME WATCH SO MUCH KISSING IN THIS FILM LET INIGO LIVERegistered User regular
    The police are never realistically going to be completely replaced within our lifetime, and likely not within the lifetime of our children or their children. Police serve a necessary and important function in any modern large society, if properly regulated and serving with the proper philosophies.

    Downsizing the police is not only realistic, it's necessary. Replacing the police completely? Never going to happen, at least not in any terms where "less time than never" has any useful meaning to this generation.

    This is one of those perceptions that is always "completely true" right up until it isn't, and to anyone looking back the abolishment of American policing is going to be thought of as "an inevitable conclusion" to a barbaric institution.

    Your denial is rooted in "we've never done it another way" and while that may be true, I have a rather long documented list of events entitled "Everything humanity has ever accomplished" that says that doesn't mean shit

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  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited August 3
    mcdermott wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Hevach wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Are market pressures more effective in that regard than a reluctant police force?

    Considering how many "masks required" policies are "unless they don't have one on in which case don't bother them and let them shop anyway"

    Way too many stores have had violence to actually risk the liability of making employees actually enforce it. My area's had multiple arsons over it, let alone the assaults and daily petty vandalisms. The liability's on them if an employee gets hurt carrying out their policies, so it's either hire appropriate staff or keep paying worker's comp every time a minimum wage register biscuit gets a cart thrown at him or something.

    Right so have them be ordinances put in place by the government.

    And in many states, they absolutely are.

    But with local law enforcement threatening to refuse to enforce, and the fact that you still get to have a confrontation if you ask somebody before calling 5-0...because this will be required to trespass them off the property...you wind up with all the same problems. So even in areas where it's a local or statewide order, with legal consequences for noncompliance, employees are being told to stay hands-off.

    Only way you can shift that calculus it to ensure that penalties for non-enforcement by an establishment are higher than the potential workman's comp claims if a crazy maskhole assaults your people. You have to fine the employer/business for allowing customers to violate.

    Michigan is doing this, businesses can potentially lose their business license but are supposed to get a bigger fine for anyone fined on their premises. Literally zero police departments in the state are enforcing it.

    I'm actually kind of surprised in my area, as the half the police in nearby counties punt every real crime to the sheriff's office. They themselves are a revenue agency, $500 plus $1000 to the business I would expect the whole department to be putting in overtime.

    Hevach on
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Hevach wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Hevach wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Are market pressures more effective in that regard than a reluctant police force?

    Considering how many "masks required" policies are "unless they don't have one on in which case don't bother them and let them shop anyway"

    Way too many stores have had violence to actually risk the liability of making employees actually enforce it. My area's had multiple arsons over it, let alone the assaults and daily petty vandalisms. The liability's on them if an employee gets hurt carrying out their policies, so it's either hire appropriate staff or keep paying worker's comp every time a minimum wage register biscuit gets a cart thrown at him or something.

    Right so have them be ordinances put in place by the government.

    And in many states, they absolutely are.

    But with local law enforcement threatening to refuse to enforce, and the fact that you still get to have a confrontation if you ask somebody before calling 5-0...because this will be required to trespass them off the property...you wind up with all the same problems. So even in areas where it's a local or statewide order, with legal consequences for noncompliance, employees are being told to stay hands-off.

    Only way you can shift that calculus it to ensure that penalties for non-enforcement by an establishment are higher than the potential workman's comp claims if a crazy maskhole assaults your people. You have to fine the employer/business for allowing customers to violate.

    Michigan is doing this, businesses can potentially lose their business license but are supposed to get a bigger fine for anyone fined on their premises. Literally zero police departments in the state are enforcing it.

    I'm actually kind of surprised in my area, as the half the police in nearby counties punt every real crime to the sheriff's office. They themselves are a revenue agency, $500 plus $1000 to the business I would expect the whole department to be putting in overtime.

    I wonder if it's being enforced against black owned businesses.

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  • RingoRingo HE KEEPS REPEATING THE LINE I'M GONNA CRY BLEASE LET HIM LIVE YOU MADE ME WATCH SO MUCH KISSING IN THIS FILM LET INIGO LIVERegistered User regular
    Hevach wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Hevach wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Are market pressures more effective in that regard than a reluctant police force?

    Considering how many "masks required" policies are "unless they don't have one on in which case don't bother them and let them shop anyway"

    Way too many stores have had violence to actually risk the liability of making employees actually enforce it. My area's had multiple arsons over it, let alone the assaults and daily petty vandalisms. The liability's on them if an employee gets hurt carrying out their policies, so it's either hire appropriate staff or keep paying worker's comp every time a minimum wage register biscuit gets a cart thrown at him or something.

    Right so have them be ordinances put in place by the government.

    And in many states, they absolutely are.

    But with local law enforcement threatening to refuse to enforce, and the fact that you still get to have a confrontation if you ask somebody before calling 5-0...because this will be required to trespass them off the property...you wind up with all the same problems. So even in areas where it's a local or statewide order, with legal consequences for noncompliance, employees are being told to stay hands-off.

    Only way you can shift that calculus it to ensure that penalties for non-enforcement by an establishment are higher than the potential workman's comp claims if a crazy maskhole assaults your people. You have to fine the employer/business for allowing customers to violate.

    Michigan is doing this, businesses can potentially lose their business license but are supposed to get a bigger fine for anyone fined on their premises. Literally zero police departments in the state are enforcing it.

    I'm actually kind of surprised in my area, as the half the police in nearby counties punt every real crime to the sheriff's office. They themselves are a revenue agency, $500 plus $1000 to the business I would expect the whole department to be putting in overtime.

    I wonder if it's being enforced against black owned businesses.

    I think it would be if there was some kind of limit on ways cops could harass black owned businesses that this could be skirting the edge of, but 2020 shows us there's no limit, so I doubt it comes up. Doubly so because I bet there are plenty of white anti-maxxers who are willing to harass black owned businesses while the cops chuckle outside refusing to enforce.

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  • ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Are market pressures more effective in that regard than a reluctant police force?

    Considering how many "masks required" policies are "unless they don't have one on in which case don't bother them and let them shop anyway"

    Best Buy quietly changed their policy. On the way in, anyone without a mask is offered one. If they refuse, no one is to provide service. They can look around, but no one answers questions with anything but "please wear a mask properly and I'll be happy to assist you." They can't even check out, instead being told by a manager that we'll be happy to do curbside for them if they want to order online, but they may not go through the registers.

    It's a huge change from "whatever, let them in," but the passive aggressive nature of it has changed some minds.

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  • jdarksunjdarksun Struggler Registered User regular
    Monwyn wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    I'm posting this for the contrast of how police treat protestors vs how police treat a man who opened fire on them with an automatic weapon.
    Man fires at cops with AK-47 after refusing to wear a mask, police say
    When a cigar shop clerk told Adam Zaborowski on Friday he had to wear a mask in the shop, the 35-year-old angrily refused. Instead, he grabbed two stogies, stormed outside — and then pulled a handgun and shot at the clerk, Bethlehem Township, Pa., police said.

    The next day, cornered near his home, Zaborowski allegedly fired at police with an AK-47, sparking a wild shootout with at least seven officers that ended with him shot multiple times and under arrest.
    Edit - Not to mention police once again taking a violent white criminal alive into custody while non-violent black people (not even criminals) are murdered on location.

    I mean, "shot multiple times" doesn't exactly scream "went out of their way to take him alive"

    Did he get first aid on the scene? (Spoiler: he did)

    That's more than Breonna Taylor got.

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  • HenroidHenroid Seize the Memes Registered User regular
    That's exactly what I was going to point out. The suspect surviving gunshot wounds means he received care. There's been lots of police murders, especially this year, where care was withheld for many minutes. We had an article in the last thread I think this past week about an officer turning off his body cam at the time of shooting, and then turned it back on so we could see him refuse to give medical assistance.

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  • TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    Ringo wrote: »
    The police are never realistically going to be completely replaced within our lifetime, and likely not within the lifetime of our children or their children. Police serve a necessary and important function in any modern large society, if properly regulated and serving with the proper philosophies.

    Downsizing the police is not only realistic, it's necessary. Replacing the police completely? Never going to happen, at least not in any terms where "less time than never" has any useful meaning to this generation.

    This is one of those perceptions that is always "completely true" right up until it isn't, and to anyone looking back the abolishment of American policing is going to be thought of as "an inevitable conclusion" to a barbaric institution.

    Your denial is rooted in "we've never done it another way" and while that may be true, I have a rather long documented list of events entitled "Everything humanity has ever accomplished" that says that doesn't mean shit

    You've qualified that with "American" Policing. Replacing the current "American Police" with different police is not the same as replacing police entirely with something else.
    There will be some police, I don't think anyone has really said that there wouldn't be - just less and with a narrower and more specific remit, with other professions picking up some of the slack.

    You're both right/wrong.

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  • RingoRingo HE KEEPS REPEATING THE LINE I'M GONNA CRY BLEASE LET HIM LIVE YOU MADE ME WATCH SO MUCH KISSING IN THIS FILM LET INIGO LIVERegistered User regular
    I believe that if the amount of "police" left in American policing is anything more than an armed response unit with no arrest authority that is beholden to a larger Emergency Services Department, then the work isn't done.

    Slapping a new coat of paint on our brutality isn't change. And we cannot refuse to change

    Sterica wrote: »
    I know my last visit to my grandpa on his deathbed was to find out how the whole Nazi werewolf thing turned out.
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  • CalicaCalica Registered User regular
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Are market pressures more effective in that regard than a reluctant police force?

    Considering how many "masks required" policies are "unless they don't have one on in which case don't bother them and let them shop anyway"

    Best Buy quietly changed their policy. On the way in, anyone without a mask is offered one. If they refuse, no one is to provide service. They can look around, but no one answers questions with anything but "please wear a mask properly and I'll be happy to assist you." They can't even check out, instead being told by a manager that we'll be happy to do curbside for them if they want to order online, but they may not go through the registers.

    It's a huge change from "whatever, let them in," but the passive aggressive nature of it has changed some minds.

    Excellent example of a least reinforcing scenario! :biggrin:

    ...I wonder if it's partly a territorial thing - as in, whether people feel very threatened when you try to bar them from a space that they consider "theirs," but less so when they're allowed to assert their right to be in the space itself, even if no one will interact with them. People are fascinating!

    Jedoc wrote: »
    The GOP cares about babies until they're born, soldiers until they're in need of care, and families until they interfere with stockholder dividends.
    MorganV
  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    edited August 4
    Ringo wrote: »
    The police are never realistically going to be completely replaced within our lifetime, and likely not within the lifetime of our children or their children. Police serve a necessary and important function in any modern large society, if properly regulated and serving with the proper philosophies.

    Downsizing the police is not only realistic, it's necessary. Replacing the police completely? Never going to happen, at least not in any terms where "less time than never" has any useful meaning to this generation.

    This is one of those perceptions that is always "completely true" right up until it isn't, and to anyone looking back the abolishment of American policing is going to be thought of as "an inevitable conclusion" to a barbaric institution.

    Your denial is rooted in "we've never done it another way" and while that may be true, I have a rather long documented list of events entitled "Everything humanity has ever accomplished" that says that doesn't mean shit

    Okay, so all you have to do:
    1. remove the deeply-entrenched opinion of many Americans to have a ludicrous level of access to firearms with little to no education about them
    2. remove gun manufacturers and their toadies as lobbyists
    3. remove the massive overabundance of firearms in the US
    4. get rid of for-profit prison slavery
    5. change the entire prison culture from one of retribution to education and rehabilitation
    6. find a way to fire all cops without devastating the economy and the lives of millions of people
    7. reverse decades of economic racism
    8. assure access to decent education by all Americans at all stages of life
    9. assure access to proper healthcare to all Americans
    10. decriminalize drug addiction and homelessness, along with a variety of other "crimes" the Puritanical crowd wants punished
    11. end the laughable war on drugs
    Now, once you've accomplished at least this short list of issues and everything on a much, much longer list of further items, yeah, we could look at actually removing the need for cops. Removing the opinions on firearms alone is something that will take a good 2-3 generations at a minimum (and that's an optimistic situation, with people trying really really hard to educate folks on the inherent hazards and making a lot of headway), as with many of the items on that list. There are items that will likely take longer than that as well, because that's a fuckload of society-altering stuff and, based on sheer complexity alone, very difficult to get done in anything less than decades.

    Police forces are not inherently barbaric. The US police force is inarguably awful. The solution is not advocating to completely remove something there is absolutely a need for as it both makes trying to make real progress against current opinion even harder and there's no existing system at there to mimic to accomplish it anyway. We need to fix the system we have first, which is something that can be accomplished in less than multiple generations. After that we can go about continuing to work towards this nigh-utopian society where cops aren't needed even though literally every existing nation on the planet has some kind of law enforcement arm whether or not they call them "police".

    Any society reaching a point where it doesn't need cops would be awesome. No nation is there yet, and the US is a lot further off than many of them.

    Ninja Snarl P on
    CelestialBadgerBethrynGnome-Interruptus
  • -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    tell you what though it would be a lot easier to do all of those things if we defunded the police

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  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    -Tal wrote: »
    tell you what though it would be a lot easier to do all of those things if we defunded the police

    Exactly, and a massive nation-wide effort to defund the police to something sane and redirecting that free budget to all the services bloated police budgets have shut down? That is something that can absolutely be accomplished in the short-term. We could see that happening within months or the next year or so. It won't be easy or simple, but is is a reasonable goal in a reasonable timeframe. We could very well get to 2025 and be in a changed nation, looking back at 2020 for being such a horrible year and yet being the big swerve towards some excellent much-needed changes.

  • AistanAistan Tiny Bat Registered User regular
    The police make a lot of those items worse while also doing a terrible job at doing the things we say we want them to do (solve murders, retrieve stolen property, find justice for rape victims, etc.) In fact i'd say that the police being present will prevent most of that list from changing.

    A police force that is built to support systems designed around 300 years of violent white supremacy is inherently barbaric. It cannot be fixed because the foundation itself is rotten, and the police themselves are violently opposed to the very idea of any amount of reform regardless. Defund them, get rid of them, create systems that actually work. What we have now is literally worse than nothing.

    steam_sig.png
    -TalRingoDarkPrimusjdarksun
  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    Aistan wrote: »
    The police make a lot of those items worse while also doing a terrible job at doing the things we say we want them to do (solve murders, retrieve stolen property, find justice for rape victims, etc.) In fact i'd say that the police being present will prevent most of that list from changing.

    A police force that is built to support systems designed around 300 years of violent white supremacy is inherently barbaric. It cannot be fixed because the foundation itself is rotten, and the police themselves are violently opposed to the very idea of any amount of reform regardless. Defund them, get rid of them, create systems that actually work. What we have now is literally worse than nothing.
    Yes, which is why I expressly and specifically said that police forces are not inherently bad, but the US police force is absolutely bad.

    Shrinking and reforming police forces is comprehensible and a realistic goal. Eliminating the entire existing police force will absolutely never happen short of the entire US collapsing. Too many people are abjectly terrified by the concept of no cops anywhere to ever accept abolishing the current police force in its entirety, nevermind the several million family members attached to police who would aggressively oppose such a move.

  • CalicaCalica Registered User regular
    Ringo wrote: »
    The police are never realistically going to be completely replaced within our lifetime, and likely not within the lifetime of our children or their children. Police serve a necessary and important function in any modern large society, if properly regulated and serving with the proper philosophies.

    Downsizing the police is not only realistic, it's necessary. Replacing the police completely? Never going to happen, at least not in any terms where "less time than never" has any useful meaning to this generation.

    This is one of those perceptions that is always "completely true" right up until it isn't, and to anyone looking back the abolishment of American policing is going to be thought of as "an inevitable conclusion" to a barbaric institution.

    Your denial is rooted in "we've never done it another way" and while that may be true, I have a rather long documented list of events entitled "Everything humanity has ever accomplished" that says that doesn't mean shit

    Okay, so all you have to do:
    1. remove the deeply-entrenched opinion of many Americans to have a ludicrous level of access to firearms with little to no education about them
    2. remove gun manufacturers and their toadies as lobbyists
    3. remove the massive overabundance of firearms in the US
    4. get rid of for-profit prison slavery
    5. change the entire prison culture from one of retribution to education and rehabilitation
    6. find a way to fire all cops without devastating the economy and the lives of millions of people
    7. reverse decades of economic racism
    8. assure access to decent education by all Americans at all stages of life
    9. assure access to proper healthcare to all Americans
    10. decriminalize drug addiction and homelessness, along with a variety of other "crimes" the Puritanical crowd wants punished
    11. end the laughable war on drugs
    Now, once you've accomplished at least this short list of issues and everything on a much, much longer list of further items, yeah, we could look at actually removing the need for cops. Removing the opinions on firearms alone is something that will take a good 2-3 generations at a minimum (and that's an optimistic situation, with people trying really really hard to educate folks on the inherent hazards and making a lot of headway), as with many of the items on that list. There are items that will likely take longer than that as well, because that's a fuckload of society-altering stuff and, based on sheer complexity alone, very difficult to get done in anything less than decades.

    Police forces are not inherently barbaric. The US police force is inarguably awful. The solution is not advocating to completely remove something there is absolutely a need for as it both makes trying to make real progress against current opinion even harder and there's no existing system at there to mimic to accomplish it anyway. We need to fix the system we have first, which is something that can be accomplished in less than multiple generations. After that we can go about continuing to work towards this nigh-utopian society where cops aren't needed even though literally every existing nation on the planet has some kind of law enforcement arm whether or not they call them "police".

    Any society reaching a point where it doesn't need cops would be awesome. No nation is there yet, and the US is a lot further off than many of them.

    1-3 and 8-10 have popular support. I'd be willing to bet that ending prison slavery and the war on drugs would have popular support if more people were aware of them (slavery) and the issues they cause (war on drugs). Reparations for descendants of slaves is an idea that's slowly gaining traction.

    The toxic culture of police and the justice system in general isn't going to change on its own. This is one of those things where you implement strong policy first, and drag people along kicking and screaming if necessary.

    What to do with all the current cops is a harder question. What do you do with close to a million people who self-selected into a culture that celebrates and reinforces their pre-existing violent, paranoid tendencies?

    Jedoc wrote: »
    The GOP cares about babies until they're born, soldiers until they're in need of care, and families until they interfere with stockholder dividends.
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    Calica wrote: »
    Ringo wrote: »
    The police are never realistically going to be completely replaced within our lifetime, and likely not within the lifetime of our children or their children. Police serve a necessary and important function in any modern large society, if properly regulated and serving with the proper philosophies.

    Downsizing the police is not only realistic, it's necessary. Replacing the police completely? Never going to happen, at least not in any terms where "less time than never" has any useful meaning to this generation.

    This is one of those perceptions that is always "completely true" right up until it isn't, and to anyone looking back the abolishment of American policing is going to be thought of as "an inevitable conclusion" to a barbaric institution.

    Your denial is rooted in "we've never done it another way" and while that may be true, I have a rather long documented list of events entitled "Everything humanity has ever accomplished" that says that doesn't mean shit

    Okay, so all you have to do:
    1. remove the deeply-entrenched opinion of many Americans to have a ludicrous level of access to firearms with little to no education about them
    2. remove gun manufacturers and their toadies as lobbyists
    3. remove the massive overabundance of firearms in the US
    4. get rid of for-profit prison slavery
    5. change the entire prison culture from one of retribution to education and rehabilitation
    6. find a way to fire all cops without devastating the economy and the lives of millions of people
    7. reverse decades of economic racism
    8. assure access to decent education by all Americans at all stages of life
    9. assure access to proper healthcare to all Americans
    10. decriminalize drug addiction and homelessness, along with a variety of other "crimes" the Puritanical crowd wants punished
    11. end the laughable war on drugs
    Now, once you've accomplished at least this short list of issues and everything on a much, much longer list of further items, yeah, we could look at actually removing the need for cops. Removing the opinions on firearms alone is something that will take a good 2-3 generations at a minimum (and that's an optimistic situation, with people trying really really hard to educate folks on the inherent hazards and making a lot of headway), as with many of the items on that list. There are items that will likely take longer than that as well, because that's a fuckload of society-altering stuff and, based on sheer complexity alone, very difficult to get done in anything less than decades.

    Police forces are not inherently barbaric. The US police force is inarguably awful. The solution is not advocating to completely remove something there is absolutely a need for as it both makes trying to make real progress against current opinion even harder and there's no existing system at there to mimic to accomplish it anyway. We need to fix the system we have first, which is something that can be accomplished in less than multiple generations. After that we can go about continuing to work towards this nigh-utopian society where cops aren't needed even though literally every existing nation on the planet has some kind of law enforcement arm whether or not they call them "police".

    Any society reaching a point where it doesn't need cops would be awesome. No nation is there yet, and the US is a lot further off than many of them.

    1-3 and 8-10 have popular support. I'd be willing to bet that ending prison slavery and the war on drugs would have popular support if more people were aware of them (slavery) and the issues they cause (war on drugs). Reparations for descendants of slaves is an idea that's slowly gaining traction.

    The toxic culture of police and the justice system in general isn't going to change on its own. This is one of those things where you implement strong policy first, and drag people along kicking and screaming if necessary.

    What to do with all the current cops is a harder question. What do you do with close to a million people who self-selected into a culture that celebrates and reinforces their pre-existing violent, paranoid tendencies?

    Well, "drop 100 sociopaths on an island and let them fight it out to the last man" games are very popular right now...

    (kidding. honest.)

    steam_sig.png
    Steam, Warframe: Megajoule
    Elvenshae
  • -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    what is the necessary and important function of police, anyway

    PNk1Ml4.png
    Ringo
  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    Calica wrote: »
    What to do with all the current cops is a harder question. What do you do with close to a million people who self-selected into a culture that celebrates and reinforces their pre-existing violent, paranoid tendencies?

    This has been one of the core issues I've chewed on for the situation. The primary step, to my thinking, is establishing an oversight group that is completely immune to influence from the police or their union (cops, retired or otherwise, are barred from oversight positions). Their first objective is to go through and review the records of the police in every precinct; anybody with a history of allegations, cleared or otherwise, is out. And they're out on a Federal level; they are barred from performing any law-enforcement function for any US precinct anywhere, so no hopping precincts when fired. Anyone proven to be overly aggressive, even in a single instance, is out immediately. Basically set up a framework to remove all the certain problem cases. At the same time, new rules of conduct and retraining and re-equipping towards deescalation over brutality. Any new offenses meet a zero-tolerance policy against brutality, sexism, and racism, resulting in immediate termination upon review. I would expect those changes alone to have an enormous impact on the police headcount while also targeting individuals that are actual offenders.

    Further, set up parallel systems to retrain police into social workers if they have a clean history. Shift the ex-precinct-funding into paying social workers comparable salaries to police. Basically, incentivize people to leave the dangerous armed section of the police force and towards nonviolent response systems that, if nothing else, don't force individuals to deal with the situation of having to harm other people to do their job.

    In short, remove anyone that's currently questionable. Retain anyone with a clean record and experience and put it to better ends. Anyone that refuses to cooperate is arrested by police from another precinct. Any precinct refusing to participate in said arrests is dissolved immediately and replaced wholesale, enforced by the National Guard. Make it utterly clear that the police have zero control over what they can and cannot enforce and that their power is now expressly limited to what civilian oversight, not the unions or other complicit cops, deem acceptable.

    I don't expect to bust every cop that is a fuckup, but the first goal is completely break the powerbase of the crooked cops. Once that is gone and a large chunk of the criminal police force removed, prosecuting new offenders becomes much easier and more focused. Even the offenders that slip by will be forced to change their behavior or get caught in short order. With a working plan in action, an oversight system like this could be implemented as needed at city and state levels in order to ensure adequate coverage. The funding obviously comes from funding stripped from police budgets, especially since this is something to regulate police anyway.

  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited August 4
    Calica wrote: »
    What to do with all the current cops is a harder question. What do you do with close to a million people who self-selected into a culture that celebrates and reinforces their pre-existing violent, paranoid tendencies?

    This has been one of the core issues I've chewed on for the situation. The primary step, to my thinking, is establishing an oversight group that is completely immune to influence from the police or their union (cops, retired or otherwise, are barred from oversight positions). Their first objective is to go through and review the records of the police in every precinct; anybody with a history of allegations, cleared or otherwise, is out. And they're out on a Federal level; they are barred from performing any law-enforcement function for any US precinct anywhere, so no hopping precincts when fired. Anyone proven to be overly aggressive, even in a single instance, is out immediately. Basically set up a framework to remove all the certain problem cases. At the same time, new rules of conduct and retraining and re-equipping towards deescalation over brutality. Any new offenses meet a zero-tolerance policy against brutality, sexism, and racism, resulting in immediate termination upon review. I would expect those changes alone to have an enormous impact on the police headcount while also targeting individuals that are actual offenders.

    Further, set up parallel systems to retrain police into social workers if they have a clean history. Shift the ex-precinct-funding into paying social workers comparable salaries to police. Basically, incentivize people to leave the dangerous armed section of the police force and towards nonviolent response systems that, if nothing else, don't force individuals to deal with the situation of having to harm other people to do their job.

    In short, remove anyone that's currently questionable. Retain anyone with a clean record and experience and put it to better ends. Anyone that refuses to cooperate is arrested by police from another precinct. Any precinct refusing to participate in said arrests is dissolved immediately and replaced wholesale, enforced by the National Guard. Make it utterly clear that the police have zero control over what they can and cannot enforce and that their power is now expressly limited to what civilian oversight, not the unions or other complicit cops, deem acceptable.

    I don't expect to bust every cop that is a fuckup, but the first goal is completely break the powerbase of the crooked cops. Once that is gone and a large chunk of the criminal police force removed, prosecuting new offenders becomes much easier and more focused. Even the offenders that slip by will be forced to change their behavior or get caught in short order. With a working plan in action, an oversight system like this could be implemented as needed at city and state levels in order to ensure adequate coverage. The funding obviously comes from funding stripped from police budgets, especially since this is something to regulate police anyway.

    Yes, but that only answers the first part of the question. What do you do with everyone (and it will be the majority of those million) who are not fit to be cops? Turn them loose, with few prospects of other employment, to seek outlets and/or targets for their violent tendencies?

    At the stroke of a pen, as it were, you've created hundreds of thousands of potential criminals and domestic terrorists - or, if you prefer, stripped that many existing ones of their authority, identity and income and given them a grudge.

    Commander Zoom on
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    Calica
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    -Tal wrote: »
    what is the necessary and important function of police, anyway

    The monopoly on violence. There will always be people who get themselves into situations for which the better answer is violence. Without police there is no “good” way to end that violence once it starts.

    The less violent means available to the population and the less violent the population the fewer armed police you need.

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  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    edited August 4
    Calica wrote: »
    What to do with all the current cops is a harder question. What do you do with close to a million people who self-selected into a culture that celebrates and reinforces their pre-existing violent, paranoid tendencies?

    This has been one of the core issues I've chewed on for the situation. The primary step, to my thinking, is establishing an oversight group that is completely immune to influence from the police or their union (cops, retired or otherwise, are barred from oversight positions). Their first objective is to go through and review the records of the police in every precinct; anybody with a history of allegations, cleared or otherwise, is out. And they're out on a Federal level; they are barred from performing any law-enforcement function for any US precinct anywhere, so no hopping precincts when fired. Anyone proven to be overly aggressive, even in a single instance, is out immediately. Basically set up a framework to remove all the certain problem cases. At the same time, new rules of conduct and retraining and re-equipping towards deescalation over brutality. Any new offenses meet a zero-tolerance policy against brutality, sexism, and racism, resulting in immediate termination upon review. I would expect those changes alone to have an enormous impact on the police headcount while also targeting individuals that are actual offenders.

    Further, set up parallel systems to retrain police into social workers if they have a clean history. Shift the ex-precinct-funding into paying social workers comparable salaries to police. Basically, incentivize people to leave the dangerous armed section of the police force and towards nonviolent response systems that, if nothing else, don't force individuals to deal with the situation of having to harm other people to do their job.

    In short, remove anyone that's currently questionable. Retain anyone with a clean record and experience and put it to better ends. Anyone that refuses to cooperate is arrested by police from another precinct. Any precinct refusing to participate in said arrests is dissolved immediately and replaced wholesale, enforced by the National Guard. Make it utterly clear that the police have zero control over what they can and cannot enforce and that their power is now expressly limited to what civilian oversight, not the unions or other complicit cops, deem acceptable.

    I don't expect to bust every cop that is a fuckup, but the first goal is completely break the powerbase of the crooked cops. Once that is gone and a large chunk of the criminal police force removed, prosecuting new offenders becomes much easier and more focused. Even the offenders that slip by will be forced to change their behavior or get caught in short order. With a working plan in action, an oversight system like this could be implemented as needed at city and state levels in order to ensure adequate coverage. The funding obviously comes from funding stripped from police budgets, especially since this is something to regulate police anyway.

    Yes, but that only answers the first part of the question. What do you do with everyone (and it will be the majority of those million) who are not fit to be cops? Turn them loose, with few prospects of other employment, to seek outlets and/or targets for their violent tendencies?

    I can see a few options. The first is that all serious offenders are imprisoned, but the prison system would need to be altered to a rehabilitative one instead of punitive. Following their prison term, they would be free to pursue employment according to their experience. Without corrupt cops propping up the prison slavery system, we could hopefully get the prison system altered to something productive and thus have people leave prison as functional individuals instead of pending repeat offenders.

    I could also see a reasonable need for a program where offenders can come forward willingly and be considered to be shifted out of the armed police and into nonviolent roles. I don't expect this to a popular choice, but anyone who at least recognizes that they've fucked up has a chance to be considered for continuing employment in a different role following retraining.

    I would expect that a large portion of the eligible police force would be willing to shift over to nonviolent work as well, if the pay is similar. Being even a good cop is highly stressful and I would think many of them would jump at the chance to work with people in dealing with their problems instead of just beating them unconscious and stuffing them in a car.

    As for those unsuitable for police work but not imprisoned, I can't think of a good solution for the long term. Short-term, I don't give a shit. The priority is to remove the flagrant racists and assholes from police departments; I'm not pleased with inflicting any kind of harm on anyone, but it's imperative these people be removed from positions of authority first and their welfare considered second. They're the ones who chose to abuse their power to brutalize anyone they don't like and it's infinitely better to have them outside the enforcement system than within it. I fully expect that a huge percentage of these individuals would actually do fuck-all to become "terrorists" or even low-grade criminals if kicked off the police force because they would no longer having their badge to protect them. Without corrupt politicians and unions backing them, they would end up doing nothing for the most part.

    Perhaps setting up some sort of additional education program to give them economic options now that they're barred from police work? I don't like the idea of "rewarding" them with a support system for being monsters, but statistically it would be better to train them then let them fall into poverty.

    But I expect many of the corrupt would end up in prison, which is where the bulk of them should've been in the first place. With corrupt cops out of the way, the prison population should also shrink quickly as people stop being incarcerated for truly insane offenses (any case handled by an imprisoned corrupt cop should also be up for review by the previously-mentioned oversight board, with the board having the option to force a retrial if the case was determined to be based on prejudice or corruption), making sufficient room for the influx of ex-cop criminals.

    It's definitely a big problem, but it should be something that's less of a concern than solving the current police issues as aggressively as possible.

    Ninja Snarl P on
  • HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    -Tal wrote: »
    what is the necessary and important function of police, anyway

    This is an incredibly ignorant and/or privileged question.
    Goumindong wrote: »
    -Tal wrote: »
    what is the necessary and important function of police, anyway

    The monopoly on violence. There will always be people who get themselves into situations for which the better answer is violence. Without police there is no “good” way to end that violence once it starts.

    The less violent means available to the population and the less violent the population the fewer armed police you need.

    And this is a much more more diplomatic and direct answer than what I was was composing so thank you, Goumindong.

    LanlaornmcdermottSageinaRageWhiteZinfandel
  • RingoRingo HE KEEPS REPEATING THE LINE I'M GONNA CRY BLEASE LET HIM LIVE YOU MADE ME WATCH SO MUCH KISSING IN THIS FILM LET INIGO LIVERegistered User regular
    edited August 4
    Goumindong wrote: »
    -Tal wrote: »
    what is the necessary and important function of police, anyway

    The monopoly on violence. There will always be people who get themselves into situations for which the better answer is violence. Without police there is no “good” way to end that violence once it starts.

    The less violent means available to the population and the less violent the population the fewer armed police you need.

    This is dogmatic bs on so many levels I am having difficulty replying. Perpetrating more violence to stop violence is not a "good" way. The only good found there is the expediency with which the undesirable violence can be detained or killed so that the rest of society can safely ignore the cause of the violence in favor of continuing not to change.

    Police do not represent safety, nor justice. They are simply the mechanism by which we sweep away the undesirable.

    Speaking of which, I think some of you are saying that if we were to stop paying police that they would become unemployable outcasts? Do you mean like every other convicted felon in America?

    Or perhaps they will be motivated to become criminally violent? You think they aren't already criminally violent? You think that taking away their guns and stations, squadcars and prisons they will become more of a threat?

    You think we owe police their jobs? That's it's our duty to employ them to abuse us?

    I get that these are all super ingrained attitudes, but come on now

    Ringo on
    Sterica wrote: »
    I know my last visit to my grandpa on his deathbed was to find out how the whole Nazi werewolf thing turned out.
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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited August 4
    Ringo wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    -Tal wrote: »
    what is the necessary and important function of police, anyway

    The monopoly on violence. There will always be people who get themselves into situations for which the better answer is violence. Without police there is no “good” way to end that violence once it starts.

    The less violent means available to the population and the less violent the population the fewer armed police you need.

    This is dogmatic bs on so many levels I am having difficulty replying. Perpetrating more violence to stop violence is not a "good" way. The only good found there is the expediency with which the undesirable violence can be detained or killed so that the rest of society can safely ignore the cause of the violence in favor of continuing not to change.

    Police do not represent safety, nor justice. They are simply the mechanism by which we sweep away the undesirable.

    Speaking of which, I think some of you are saying that if we were to stop paying police that they would become unemployable outcasts? Do you mean like every other convicted felon in America?

    Or perhaps they will be motivated to become criminally violent? You think they aren't already criminally violent? You think that taking away their guns and stations, squadcars and prisons they will become more of a threat?

    You think we owe police their jobs? That's it's our duty to employ them to abuse us?

    I get that these are all super ingrained attitudes, but come on now

    I assume the second part is directed at me.

    I'm not saying we shouldn't do it; I'm saying we should have some plan for what to do after we do it. Otherwise, in the long tradition of short-sighted decisions, all we've really done is exchange one problem for another.

    Commander Zoom on
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  • TefTef Registered User regular
    Posting for forum bug

    ACAB, defund the police tia

    Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better

    bit.ly/2XQM1ke
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