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Ben Kuchera's Allegations of a Toxic Work Environment at Penny Arcade

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  • bowenbowen Sup? Registered User regular
    The fact that he says it still comes up to this day... who the heck holds an active, nearly 11 year old grudge over someone elses' beef with a person?

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    People do. People are fucking crazy.

  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    Man I'd forgotten about that whole thing. I admittedly did find the comic and news post funny, having not been familiar with the podcast.
    Rereading the post now with the wisdom of my years or whatever it seems like T&G were probably pretty frayed by the time that show came around due to doing a book publicity tour and were primed not to enjoy the experience.

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  • djmitchelladjmitchella Registered User regular
    edited March 2021
    bowen wrote: »
    The fact that he says it still comes up to this day... who the heck holds an active, nearly 11 year old grudge over someone elses' beef with a person?

    Tumblr doesn't seem to put the year in its header, so it's not obvious unless you go to the listing of all his posts that Jesse Thorn's posting is from October 2016, not 2020 (though he does say at the start that it was "six years ago". So "to this day" was referring to 2016, not 2021 (though six years is still an awfully long time, mind you)

    djmitchella on
  • Ark EvensongArk Evensong The NetherlandsRegistered User regular
    edited March 2021
    bowen wrote: »
    The fact that he says it still comes up to this day... who the heck holds an active, nearly 11 year old grudge over someone elses' beef with a person?
    That post is over four years old by now. Page doesn't list the year, but it's from October 2016 - hopefully stuff has calmed down further since then. But, yeah ... ugh.
    [edit] I'm slow

    Ark Evensong on
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    .
    bowen wrote: »
    The fact that he says it still comes up to this day... who the heck holds an active, nearly 11 year old grudge over someone elses' beef with a person?

    Tumblr doesn't seem to put the year in its header, so it's not obvious unless you go to the listing of all his posts that Jesse Thorn's posting is from October 2016, not 2020 (though he does say at the start that it was "six years ago". So "to this day" was referring to 2016, not 2021 (though six years is still an awfully long time, mind you)

    Six years past the original date is still a long time to hold a grudge. I also wouldn't be surprised if he continues to get messages about it to this day.

    Though I think it's less about "one particular group of people who took a grudge and continue to stew in it for 10+ years" and more about things like:
    - New fans reading the entire archive of the comic (as new fans of online comics have a tendency to do), coming across that incident and getting mad, then venting their anger on Jesse Thorn
    - People who, when they hear about Jesse Thorn, think "guy who was an asshole to Mike and Jerry", the same way that when I read about JonTron online I think "white supremacist." And for a fraction of those people, when they happen upon the name and think the thought, they decide to go act on it on Twitter.

    "excuse my French
    But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
    - Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
  • SteevSteev What can I do for you? Registered User regular
    bowen wrote: »
    SteevL wrote: »
    I don't think Mike and Jerry posted on the forum itself about it; he's probably referring to their blog posts. I'd be curious to see what a thread on that whole situation looks like from that time. I vaguely remember people on here discussing it and there being some disappointment in Mike and Jerry from PA fans who were also fans of Thorn's show. But it also pre-dates the Glorious Edict, so I'm sure there was some unpleasantness.

    But yeah, reading about it in that post above, they do not come off very well at all!

    Here's one of the threads I could find, SE++ was weirder back then.

    https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/113781/maximum-fun-and-penny-arcade

    Huh...maybe it doesn't pre-date the Glorious Edict, then, based on the language in that OP? I've lost track of when it went into effect.

    Interesting to note that the majority of people posting on the first page are no longer regulars of this forum. Many haven't posted in years.

  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion Pronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered User regular
    Wow, that Jesse Thorn thing was something I did not know about. Mike and Jerry were such geese back then.

    Just... wow. That's fucked.

  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    I'm 100% certain that thread doesn't pre-date the Glorious Edict, because I joined the forums in 2008 and the Glorious Edict has been a thing for as long as I've been posting here.

    I knew nothing about that thread, though, because back then I only posted in Mass Effect and Dragon Age threads.

    "excuse my French
    But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
    - Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
  • DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    I thought the Glorious Edict was a 2012/2013 thing?

    Whippy wrote: »
    nope nope nope nope abort abort talk about anime
    I like to ART
  • GyralGyral Registered User regular
    Doodmann wrote: »
    I thought the Glorious Edict was a 2012/2013 thing?

    A googling shows references to it back in 2010.

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  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    I searched my own history and show the earliest time I used it was Jan of 2011, which means I had to have absorbed it from the forums for at least a few months prior to that.

    Then I jumped off a cliff because of reading the things I thought were clever 10 years ago, when in actuality I was an unbearable asshole.

    I guess that's what we should take away from this story: all of us were assholes 10 years ago and we're trying to do better. That's all we can do, acknowledge when we fucked up and keep trying to be less of an asshole as time passes.

    "excuse my French
    But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
    - Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
  • AiouaAioua Ora Occidens Ora OptimaRegistered User regular
    that very thread has someone saying "silly goose" which would be pretty unlikely pre-edict

    life's a game that you're bound to lose / like using a hammer to pound in screws
    fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
    that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
    bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
  • bowenbowen Sup? Registered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    .
    bowen wrote: »
    The fact that he says it still comes up to this day... who the heck holds an active, nearly 11 year old grudge over someone elses' beef with a person?

    Tumblr doesn't seem to put the year in its header, so it's not obvious unless you go to the listing of all his posts that Jesse Thorn's posting is from October 2016, not 2020 (though he does say at the start that it was "six years ago". So "to this day" was referring to 2016, not 2021 (though six years is still an awfully long time, mind you)

    Six years past the original date is still a long time to hold a grudge. I also wouldn't be surprised if he continues to get messages about it to this day.

    Though I think it's less about "one particular group of people who took a grudge and continue to stew in it for 10+ years" and more about things like:
    - New fans reading the entire archive of the comic (as new fans of online comics have a tendency to do), coming across that incident and getting mad, then venting their anger on Jesse Thorn
    - People who, when they hear about Jesse Thorn, think "guy who was an asshole to Mike and Jerry", the same way that when I read about JonTron online I think "white supremacist." And for a fraction of those people, when they happen upon the name and think the thought, they decide to go act on it on Twitter.

    Yeah even six years is.. woof.

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
  • ChiselphaneChiselphane Registered User regular
    Reminds me of how Trump occasionally still sends pictures of his hands to a guy who wrote a Vanity Fair article describing him as a short-fingered vulgarian.

    That article was written over 30 years ago.

  • JarsJars Registered User regular
    edited March 2021
    pictures with notes written in sharpie about how they're not actually small, no less
    they really are small

    Jars on
  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist The Skies of HiigaraRegistered User regular
    Not a thread about Trump, please. :)

    He/Him | "We who believe in freedom cannot rest." - Dr. Johnetta Cole, 7/22/2024
  • CptHamiltonCptHamilton Registered User regular
    edited March 2021
    I apparently joined in 2009 and I'm fairly certain I remember the pre-Edict world.

    Edit: Wait, I couldn't have joined in 2009. I remember posting here from my old house and I moved in 2009. Are join dates based on the migration to vanilla or something?

    CptHamilton on
    PSN,Steam,Live | CptHamiltonian
  • HardtargetHardtarget There Are Four Lights VancouverRegistered User regular
    Are join dates based on the migration to vanilla or something?
    I believe some of our old dates were actually moved over from the pre-vanilla forums but the join dates from the pre-pre-vanilla forums were sadly lost. I'd love to know my actual join date for funsies but alas

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  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    edited March 2021
    I apparently joined in 2009 and I'm fairly certain I remember the pre-Edict world.

    Edit: Wait, I couldn't have joined in 2009. I remember posting here from my old house and I moved in 2009. Are join dates based on the migration to vanilla or something?

    Mine goes back to 2005 so no I don't think the migration affected that.

    If you were around pre-edict you would remember it. They were nasty times.

    Butters on
    PSN: idontworkhere582 | CFN: idontworkhere | Steam: lordbutters | Amazon Wishlist
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited March 2021
    The edict went into effect, best I can tell sometime before or around 2010. Which seems right to me. That is the earliest reference I can find and it seems relatively recent as referenced. This is from migrated pre-migration posts with 2010 dates. The Vanilla merge was 2011 so your join dates are probably legit unless there was another migration/reset before that.

    Goumindong on
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  • bowenbowen Sup? Registered User regular
    I had an account on the phorum, then there was like 2ish crashes that lost some data and accounts and I think my account got hit on that, then the final one before we transitioned to vanilla forever ago too.

    I only have a vague recollection of the before times. The "phorum" was really weird though.

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
  • KrathoonKrathoon Registered User regular
    edited March 2021
    I lurked on the forums way back. Was it around in 1999? I think so. I have been reading PA from the early days. I remember the John Romero comics.

    I do get the impression PA might be kinda informal.

    Krathoon on
  • HardtargetHardtarget There Are Four Lights VancouverRegistered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    The edict went into effect, best I can tell sometime before or around 2010. Which seems right to me. That is the earliest reference I can find and it seems relatively recent as referenced. This is from migrated pre-migration posts with 2010 dates. The Vanilla merge was 2011 so your join dates are probably legit unless there was another migration/reset before that.

    2010ish makes sense to me. Honestly the edict still feels new to me which is weird lol

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  • DonnictonDonnicton Registered User regular
    bowen wrote: »
    The fact that he says it still comes up to this day... who the heck holds an active, nearly 11 year old grudge over someone elses' beef with a person?

    To be fair, I still hold a nearly 11 year old grudge over what Jay Leno did to Conan O'Brien.


    :sad: :so_raven:

  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    Donnicton wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    The fact that he says it still comes up to this day... who the heck holds an active, nearly 11 year old grudge over someone elses' beef with a person?

    To be fair, I still hold a nearly 11 year old grudge over what Jay Leno did to Conan O'Brien.


    :sad: :so_raven:

    But are you sending Leno hate mail / tweets about it?

    Like I can barely be bothered to to a supportive fan brigade of things like when John Oliver etc used to try and direct fans to give a like or something to some video.

    I can’t imagine how empty people’s lives are who feel the need to start new beef on behalf of someone else.

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    MWO: Adamski
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Holy fuck, that was 11 years ago?

  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    edited March 2021
    Enc wrote: »
    Wow, that Jesse Thorn thing was something I did not know about. Mike and Jerry were such geese back then.

    Just... wow. That's fucked.

    Me either. I kind of vaguely remember the comic, but beyond thinking it was a kind of a weird comic and a non sequitur, I simply moved on. But after reading Jesse Thorn's explanation, which seems mighty believable, that comic has not aged well. I get that sometimes things just don't work out, that doing PR can be a brutal slog with a bunch of media phonies, and sitting through a podcast that's not going well would suck, but this guy invites you into his house as a guest, and you go home to your little tree house and write that comic and news post? Blows my mind.

    Interestingly, you can tell how hyper aware he is too of the power PA wields. He basically had to keep his mouth shut and play coy and hope it would all blow over. I would have been calling the PA office next day to be like.."you two realize that I'm a real person in the real world with professional relationships, and you just made me out to be a serial killer that keeps people's heads in his fridge? If you had an issue with show you could have just you know...talked with me about it first."

    Dark_Side on
  • HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Holy fuck, that was 11 years ago?

    No. No it was not. It wasn't.

    It was like two years ago tops.

    No, shut up, TWO OR THREE YEARS TOPS.

  • RingoRingo He/Him a distinct lack of substanceRegistered User regular
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    Enc wrote: »
    Wow, that Jesse Thorn thing was something I did not know about. Mike and Jerry were such geese back then.

    Just... wow. That's fucked.

    Me either. I kind of vaguely remember the comic, but beyond thinking it was a kind of a weird comic and a non sequitur, I simply moved on. But after reading Jesse Thorn's explanation, which seems mighty believable, that comic has not aged well. I get that sometimes things just don't work out, that doing PR can be a brutal slog with a bunch of media phonies, and sitting through a podcast that's not going well would suck, but this guy invites you into his house as a guest, and you go home to your little tree house and write that comic and news post? Blows my mind.

    Interestingly, you can tell how hyper aware he is too of the power PA wields. He basically had to keep his mouth shut and play coy and hope it would all blow over. I would have been calling the PA office next day to be like.."you two realize that I'm a real person in the real world with professional relationships, and you just made me out to be a serial killer that keeps people's heads in his fridge? If you had an issue with show you could have just you know...talked with me about it first."

    Yeah it was the news posts (and follow-up later by Gabe) that really stood out to me as egregious at the time, but now I can see the comic for what it is as well. And even then it was entirely in keeping with how they dealt with Jack Thompson, Harlan Ellison, and Squidi, so it wasn't surprising once they decided Thorn was an asshole. It is a testament to Robert Khoo's ability that Gabe and Tycho never managed to entirely destroy their own brand.

  • KrathoonKrathoon Registered User regular
    I got the impression Robert Khoo really whipped their company into shape. He helped to lay a good foundation.

  • RingoRingo He/Him a distinct lack of substanceRegistered User regular
    Krathoon wrote: »
    I got the impression Robert Khoo really whipped their company into shape. He helped to lay a good foundation.

    He actually rescued them from being completely stripped of their brand by one of their early publishing deals. Khoo did a lot of work (for free that first year) just based on the potential he saw in Penny Arcade, and quite a bit was demoing out the disasters G&T had already wrought before laying an actual foundation. It's very impressive and I'd love to read a book about it someday

  • NosfNosf Registered User regular
    edited March 2021
    Ha, has anyone in the history of mankind had a good interaction with Harlan Ellison? I mean he's a hell of a talent, but he's also...kind of a dick.

    His wikipedia page literally has a section titled, "Temperament"

    Nosf on
  • NamrokNamrok Registered User regular
    Nosf wrote: »
    Ha, has anyone in the history of mankind had a good interaction with Harlan Ellison? I mean he's a hell of a talent, but he's also...kind of a dick.

    Ah man, lets not start speaking ill of the dead.

    Unless it's to rehash the legendary, and probably fictional, jelly bean incident.

  • RingoRingo He/Him a distinct lack of substanceRegistered User regular
    The three interactions I named were definitely assholes to one degree or another. It's just that G&T absolutely operate on that same wavelength

  • NosfNosf Registered User regular
    I'd forgotten he'd passed away, anyways he was a real talent and kind of a crotchety douchebag at times. Alan Moore has the same thing going on really. Sometimes he sounds like a cranky old man, other times, he's got a point.

  • KrathoonKrathoon Registered User regular
    Ringo wrote: »
    Krathoon wrote: »
    I got the impression Robert Khoo really whipped their company into shape. He helped to lay a good foundation.

    He actually rescued them from being completely stripped of their brand by one of their early publishing deals. Khoo did a lot of work (for free that first year) just based on the potential he saw in Penny Arcade, and quite a bit was demoing out the disasters G&T had already wrought before laying an actual foundation. It's very impressive and I'd love to read a book about it someday

    So he pretty much saved their butts.

  • NosfNosf Registered User regular
    Where did Khoo wind up landing after?

  • KrathoonKrathoon Registered User regular
    edited March 2021
    Nosf wrote: »
    I'd forgotten he'd passed away, anyways he was a real talent and kind of a crotchety douchebag at times. Alan Moore has the same thing going on really. Sometimes he sounds like a cranky old man, other times, he's got a point.

    Ellison was very litigious. He would go after anyone that tried to rip him off. It would have actually been a good idea to be friends with him.

    Krathoon on
  • KrathoonKrathoon Registered User regular
    Does anyone know if the Virtual PAX was profitable? Hopefully, it was a good alternative.

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