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To the "it takes time" crowd, now that we are two months in, would you accept > 2 months as acceptable time frame to get basic food/water/hygiene/boarding if say, a massive hurricane hit part of the country? We expect FEMA to be in and going in days at WORST. This is why I don't give Biden much more benefit of the doubt here. Declare an emergency (the conditions we're seeing constitute one to me) and get FEMA to at least set up refugee camps.
If Biden's admin is doing something to alleviate the problem, they need to communicate.
Conditions for housing disaster victims is just like cots in the middle of a warehouse or a gymnasium or something. It's not that far off the photos posted last page.
And let's not forget that one of the reasons we're still having trouble is that there is a pandemic going on, so there is an even greater need to isolate everyone.
They are very very clearly not taking pandemic requirements very seriously in those photos.
The BBC article describes them as being divided up into "pods", so maybe they are trying some kind of cohorting system.
What do you mean by "some kind of cohorting system" and how does it make for a suitable substitution for social distancing and proper sanitation? Ideally you could point out in the photographs how this cohorting system is being deployed.
"Cohorting" or "pods" are a pretty common method that people have used to take precautions against Covid while still having some semblance of human connection. The idea is basically that you have a relatively small group of people with whom you interact, and those people all only interact with people in this small group. In this way, you limit your exposure to outside sources which may have Covid. There are limitations and downsides to this. First off, it requires everyone in the "cohort" to be acting very responsibly.... one person can screw it up for everyone. But even then, limiting exposure is still limiting exposure.
I'm not sure if there is any conclusive evidence on the effectiveness of these or such, but logically it seems like it should help, albeit not be as good as complete social distancing. It is not something new for immigrants or whatever, though.
In the photographs, it looks like the immigrants are separated out into groups, which are divided by the plastic barriers? Those could be intended to be some sort of "cohort" system, especially if they were described as "pods".
To the "it takes time" crowd, now that we are two months in, would you accept > 2 months as acceptable time frame to get basic food/water/hygiene/boarding if say, a massive hurricane hit part of the country? We expect FEMA to be in and going in days at WORST. This is why I don't give Biden much more benefit of the doubt here. Declare an emergency (the conditions we're seeing constitute one to me) and get FEMA to at least set up refugee camps.
If Biden's admin is doing something to alleviate the problem, they need to communicate.
Conditions for housing disaster victims is just like cots in the middle of a warehouse or a gymnasium or something. It's not that far off the photos posted last page.
And let's not forget that one of the reasons we're still having trouble is that there is a pandemic going on, so there is an even greater need to isolate everyone.
They are very very clearly not taking pandemic requirements very seriously in those photos.
The BBC article describes them as being divided up into "pods", so maybe they are trying some kind of cohorting system.
What do you mean by "some kind of cohorting system" and how does it make for a suitable substitution for social distancing and proper sanitation? Ideally you could point out in the photographs how this cohorting system is being deployed.
In the photographs, it looks like the immigrants are separated out into groups, which are divided by the plastic barriers? Those could be intended to be some sort of "cohort" system, especially if they were described as "pods".
It's probably intended to try and stop the slow of Covid through the facility, because if all the inmates are in contact with all the rest, the disease will infect nearly 100% of people if one person has it - they are so overcrowded.
Whatever they are doing to stop the spread of COVID may be halfassed and ineffective but **waves hands at everything**
Podding / cohorts are supported by science and can have some effectiveness, but from the pictures I highly doubt it is implemented properly and anything more than CYA theater.
So if I understand correctly, the argument here is "the immigration crisis is fueled by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia" versus "the immigration crisis is fueled by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia, but in slightly different proportions"?
The argument is that racism is the driver for our treatment of Latin immigrants, because ultimately the unspoken truth of US immigration policy, even for democrats, is that they don’t want a racial other joining the US in large numbers.
So we round them into camps for their own... “protection,” while just so happening denying them access to lawyers, locking down the ability to report on the condition of the camps, for their “protection,” while cramming them into cramped spaces where they’re several times over capacity in the midst of a lethal pandemic.... for their “protection”
[because the protection of the interred isn’t the actual point. The detainment and horror stories meant to dissuade others from attempting to immigrate was the point]
So you're on team "immigration policy is driven by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia" then?
Like, nobody here has argued that this crisis isn't driven by racism. Nobody has argued that it's only Republicans that have shitty views. There was some pushback on the notion that there would be no crisis if the immigrants were all white, which is kind of like saying there would be no poverty if we abolished money in terms of useful commentary.
Ultimately, I don't even see what the point of contention is.
The point of contention is that the administration is hurting large swaths of Latino folks in a project rooted in white supremacy, to accomplish the goal of maintaining white supremacy, by creating the precise image that the fate of those currently interned in our camps will be the fate of any others who try to escape the kind of nightmarish conditions that would cause people to flee for thousands of miles from their homes, on a gamble that they can make a better life in “the greatest country in the world.”
Lanz on
0
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Just to be clear, interred are not those who are victims of internment.
So if I understand correctly, the argument here is "the immigration crisis is fueled by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia" versus "the immigration crisis is fueled by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia, but in slightly different proportions"?
The argument is that racism is the driver for our treatment of Latin immigrants, because ultimately the unspoken truth of US immigration policy, even for democrats, is that they don’t want a racial other joining the US in large numbers.
So we round them into camps for their own... “protection,” while just so happening denying them access to lawyers, locking down the ability to report on the condition of the camps, for their “protection,” while cramming them into cramped spaces where they’re several times over capacity in the midst of a lethal pandemic.... for their “protection”
[because the protection of the interred isn’t the actual point. The detainment and horror stories meant to dissuade others from attempting to immigrate was the point]
So you're on team "immigration policy is driven by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia" then?
Like, nobody here has argued that this crisis isn't driven by racism. Nobody has argued that it's only Republicans that have shitty views. There was some pushback on the notion that there would be no crisis if the immigrants were all white, which is kind of like saying there would be no poverty if we abolished money in terms of useful commentary.
Ultimately, I don't even see what the point of contention is.
The point of contention is that the administration is hurting large swaths of Latino folks in a project rooted in white supremacy, to accomplish the goal of maintaining white supremacy, by creating the precise image that the fate of those currently interned in our camps will be the fate of any others who try to escape the kind of nightmarish conditions that would cause people to flee for thousands of miles from their homes, on a gamble that they can make a better life in “the greatest country in the world.”
So "our immigration policy is based on racism, nationalism and xenophobia" but with more exclamation points.
Sorry, this just feels a bit like someone saying "there's a dog" and you respond with "no you FOOL can't you see that IT'S A DOG Jesus fucking CHRIST."
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
+6
Shortytouching the meatIntergalactic Cool CourtRegistered Userregular
So if I understand correctly, the argument here is "the immigration crisis is fueled by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia" versus "the immigration crisis is fueled by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia, but in slightly different proportions"?
The argument is that racism is the driver for our treatment of Latin immigrants, because ultimately the unspoken truth of US immigration policy, even for democrats, is that they don’t want a racial other joining the US in large numbers.
So we round them into camps for their own... “protection,” while just so happening denying them access to lawyers, locking down the ability to report on the condition of the camps, for their “protection,” while cramming them into cramped spaces where they’re several times over capacity in the midst of a lethal pandemic.... for their “protection”
[because the protection of the interred isn’t the actual point. The detainment and horror stories meant to dissuade others from attempting to immigrate was the point]
So you're on team "immigration policy is driven by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia" then?
Like, nobody here has argued that this crisis isn't driven by racism. Nobody has argued that it's only Republicans that have shitty views. There was some pushback on the notion that there would be no crisis if the immigrants were all white, which is kind of like saying there would be no poverty if we abolished money in terms of useful commentary.
Ultimately, I don't even see what the point of contention is.
The point of contention is that the administration is hurting large swaths of Latino folks in a project rooted in white supremacy, to accomplish the goal of maintaining white supremacy, by creating the precise image that the fate of those currently interned in our camps will be the fate of any others who try to escape the kind of nightmarish conditions that would cause people to flee for thousands of miles from their homes, on a gamble that they can make a better life in “the greatest country in the world.”
So "our immigration policy is based on racism, nationalism and xenophobia" but with more exclamation points.
Sorry, this just feels a bit like someone saying "there's a dog" and you respond with "no you FOOL can't you see that IT'S A DOG Jesus fucking CHRIST."
marathon said that race wasn't a component of this policy. that's what people were responding to. what are you doing?
So if I understand correctly, the argument here is "the immigration crisis is fueled by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia" versus "the immigration crisis is fueled by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia, but in slightly different proportions"?
The argument is that racism is the driver for our treatment of Latin immigrants, because ultimately the unspoken truth of US immigration policy, even for democrats, is that they don’t want a racial other joining the US in large numbers.
So we round them into camps for their own... “protection,” while just so happening denying them access to lawyers, locking down the ability to report on the condition of the camps, for their “protection,” while cramming them into cramped spaces where they’re several times over capacity in the midst of a lethal pandemic.... for their “protection”
[because the protection of the interred isn’t the actual point. The detainment and horror stories meant to dissuade others from attempting to immigrate was the point]
So you're on team "immigration policy is driven by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia" then?
Like, nobody here has argued that this crisis isn't driven by racism. Nobody has argued that it's only Republicans that have shitty views. There was some pushback on the notion that there would be no crisis if the immigrants were all white, which is kind of like saying there would be no poverty if we abolished money in terms of useful commentary.
Ultimately, I don't even see what the point of contention is.
The point of contention is that the administration is hurting large swaths of Latino folks in a project rooted in white supremacy, to accomplish the goal of maintaining white supremacy, by creating the precise image that the fate of those currently interned in our camps will be the fate of any others who try to escape the kind of nightmarish conditions that would cause people to flee for thousands of miles from their homes, on a gamble that they can make a better life in “the greatest country in the world.”
So "our immigration policy is based on racism, nationalism and xenophobia" but with more exclamation points.
Sorry, this just feels a bit like someone saying "there's a dog" and you respond with "no you FOOL can't you see that IT'S A DOG Jesus fucking CHRIST."
I’d argue it’s more like “that man appears to be purposefully mauling people with a very large dog that currently has that dude’s femur in his mouth”
And some folks are still going “I’m sure there is a very good reason the dog is eating that poor man’s leg”
Whatever they are doing to stop the spread of COVID may be halfassed and ineffective but **waves hands at everything**
Podding / cohorts are supported by science and can have some effectiveness, but from the pictures I highly doubt it is implemented properly and anything more than CYA theater.
It could also simply be administrative convenience. It's not clear either way.
Regardless there's not much they can do anyway if they are that overcrowded.
So if I understand correctly, the argument here is "the immigration crisis is fueled by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia" versus "the immigration crisis is fueled by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia, but in slightly different proportions"?
The argument is that racism is the driver for our treatment of Latin immigrants, because ultimately the unspoken truth of US immigration policy, even for democrats, is that they don’t want a racial other joining the US in large numbers.
So we round them into camps for their own... “protection,” while just so happening denying them access to lawyers, locking down the ability to report on the condition of the camps, for their “protection,” while cramming them into cramped spaces where they’re several times over capacity in the midst of a lethal pandemic.... for their “protection”
[because the protection of the interred isn’t the actual point. The detainment and horror stories meant to dissuade others from attempting to immigrate was the point]
So you're on team "immigration policy is driven by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia" then?
Like, nobody here has argued that this crisis isn't driven by racism. Nobody has argued that it's only Republicans that have shitty views. There was some pushback on the notion that there would be no crisis if the immigrants were all white, which is kind of like saying there would be no poverty if we abolished money in terms of useful commentary.
Ultimately, I don't even see what the point of contention is.
The point of contention is that the administration is hurting large swaths of Latino folks in a project rooted in white supremacy, to accomplish the goal of maintaining white supremacy, by creating the precise image that the fate of those currently interned in our camps will be the fate of any others who try to escape the kind of nightmarish conditions that would cause people to flee for thousands of miles from their homes, on a gamble that they can make a better life in “the greatest country in the world.”
So "our immigration policy is based on racism, nationalism and xenophobia" but with more exclamation points.
Sorry, this just feels a bit like someone saying "there's a dog" and you respond with "no you FOOL can't you see that IT'S A DOG Jesus fucking CHRIST."
marathon said that race wasn't a component of this policy. that's what people were responding to. what are you doing?
No, what I said is that the Biden administration’s actions are not driven by racism.
So if I understand correctly, the argument here is "the immigration crisis is fueled by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia" versus "the immigration crisis is fueled by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia, but in slightly different proportions"?
The argument is that racism is the driver for our treatment of Latin immigrants, because ultimately the unspoken truth of US immigration policy, even for democrats, is that they don’t want a racial other joining the US in large numbers.
So we round them into camps for their own... “protection,” while just so happening denying them access to lawyers, locking down the ability to report on the condition of the camps, for their “protection,” while cramming them into cramped spaces where they’re several times over capacity in the midst of a lethal pandemic.... for their “protection”
[because the protection of the interred isn’t the actual point. The detainment and horror stories meant to dissuade others from attempting to immigrate was the point]
So you're on team "immigration policy is driven by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia" then?
Like, nobody here has argued that this crisis isn't driven by racism. Nobody has argued that it's only Republicans that have shitty views. There was some pushback on the notion that there would be no crisis if the immigrants were all white, which is kind of like saying there would be no poverty if we abolished money in terms of useful commentary.
Ultimately, I don't even see what the point of contention is.
The point of contention is that the administration is hurting large swaths of Latino folks in a project rooted in white supremacy, to accomplish the goal of maintaining white supremacy, by creating the precise image that the fate of those currently interned in our camps will be the fate of any others who try to escape the kind of nightmarish conditions that would cause people to flee for thousands of miles from their homes, on a gamble that they can make a better life in “the greatest country in the world.”
So "our immigration policy is based on racism, nationalism and xenophobia" but with more exclamation points.
Sorry, this just feels a bit like someone saying "there's a dog" and you respond with "no you FOOL can't you see that IT'S A DOG Jesus fucking CHRIST."
marathon said that race wasn't a component of this policy. that's what people were responding to. what are you doing?
No, what I said is that the Biden administration’s actions are not driven by racism.
So if I understand correctly, the argument here is "the immigration crisis is fueled by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia" versus "the immigration crisis is fueled by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia, but in slightly different proportions"?
The argument is that racism is the driver for our treatment of Latin immigrants, because ultimately the unspoken truth of US immigration policy, even for democrats, is that they don’t want a racial other joining the US in large numbers.
So we round them into camps for their own... “protection,” while just so happening denying them access to lawyers, locking down the ability to report on the condition of the camps, for their “protection,” while cramming them into cramped spaces where they’re several times over capacity in the midst of a lethal pandemic.... for their “protection”
[because the protection of the interred isn’t the actual point. The detainment and horror stories meant to dissuade others from attempting to immigrate was the point]
So you're on team "immigration policy is driven by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia" then?
Like, nobody here has argued that this crisis isn't driven by racism. Nobody has argued that it's only Republicans that have shitty views. There was some pushback on the notion that there would be no crisis if the immigrants were all white, which is kind of like saying there would be no poverty if we abolished money in terms of useful commentary.
Ultimately, I don't even see what the point of contention is.
The point of contention is that the administration is hurting large swaths of Latino folks in a project rooted in white supremacy, to accomplish the goal of maintaining white supremacy, by creating the precise image that the fate of those currently interned in our camps will be the fate of any others who try to escape the kind of nightmarish conditions that would cause people to flee for thousands of miles from their homes, on a gamble that they can make a better life in “the greatest country in the world.”
So "our immigration policy is based on racism, nationalism and xenophobia" but with more exclamation points.
Sorry, this just feels a bit like someone saying "there's a dog" and you respond with "no you FOOL can't you see that IT'S A DOG Jesus fucking CHRIST."
marathon said that race wasn't a component of this policy. that's what people were responding to. what are you doing?
No, what I said is that the Biden administration’s actions are not driven by racism.
So if I understand correctly, the argument here is "the immigration crisis is fueled by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia" versus "the immigration crisis is fueled by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia, but in slightly different proportions"?
The argument is that racism is the driver for our treatment of Latin immigrants, because ultimately the unspoken truth of US immigration policy, even for democrats, is that they don’t want a racial other joining the US in large numbers.
So we round them into camps for their own... “protection,” while just so happening denying them access to lawyers, locking down the ability to report on the condition of the camps, for their “protection,” while cramming them into cramped spaces where they’re several times over capacity in the midst of a lethal pandemic.... for their “protection”
[because the protection of the interred isn’t the actual point. The detainment and horror stories meant to dissuade others from attempting to immigrate was the point]
So you're on team "immigration policy is driven by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia" then?
Like, nobody here has argued that this crisis isn't driven by racism. Nobody has argued that it's only Republicans that have shitty views. There was some pushback on the notion that there would be no crisis if the immigrants were all white, which is kind of like saying there would be no poverty if we abolished money in terms of useful commentary.
Ultimately, I don't even see what the point of contention is.
The point of contention is that the administration is hurting large swaths of Latino folks in a project rooted in white supremacy, to accomplish the goal of maintaining white supremacy, by creating the precise image that the fate of those currently interned in our camps will be the fate of any others who try to escape the kind of nightmarish conditions that would cause people to flee for thousands of miles from their homes, on a gamble that they can make a better life in “the greatest country in the world.”
So "our immigration policy is based on racism, nationalism and xenophobia" but with more exclamation points.
Sorry, this just feels a bit like someone saying "there's a dog" and you respond with "no you FOOL can't you see that IT'S A DOG Jesus fucking CHRIST."
marathon said that race wasn't a component of this policy. that's what people were responding to. what are you doing?
No, what I said is that the Biden administration’s actions are not driven by racism.
So if I understand correctly, the argument here is "the immigration crisis is fueled by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia" versus "the immigration crisis is fueled by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia, but in slightly different proportions"?
The argument is that racism is the driver for our treatment of Latin immigrants, because ultimately the unspoken truth of US immigration policy, even for democrats, is that they don’t want a racial other joining the US in large numbers.
So we round them into camps for their own... “protection,” while just so happening denying them access to lawyers, locking down the ability to report on the condition of the camps, for their “protection,” while cramming them into cramped spaces where they’re several times over capacity in the midst of a lethal pandemic.... for their “protection”
[because the protection of the interred isn’t the actual point. The detainment and horror stories meant to dissuade others from attempting to immigrate was the point]
So you're on team "immigration policy is driven by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia" then?
Like, nobody here has argued that this crisis isn't driven by racism. Nobody has argued that it's only Republicans that have shitty views. There was some pushback on the notion that there would be no crisis if the immigrants were all white, which is kind of like saying there would be no poverty if we abolished money in terms of useful commentary.
Ultimately, I don't even see what the point of contention is.
The point of contention is that the administration is hurting large swaths of Latino folks in a project rooted in white supremacy, to accomplish the goal of maintaining white supremacy, by creating the precise image that the fate of those currently interned in our camps will be the fate of any others who try to escape the kind of nightmarish conditions that would cause people to flee for thousands of miles from their homes, on a gamble that they can make a better life in “the greatest country in the world.”
So "our immigration policy is based on racism, nationalism and xenophobia" but with more exclamation points.
Sorry, this just feels a bit like someone saying "there's a dog" and you respond with "no you FOOL can't you see that IT'S A DOG Jesus fucking CHRIST."
marathon said that race wasn't a component of this policy. that's what people were responding to. what are you doing?
No, what I said is that the Biden administration’s actions are not driven by racism.
This is where several of us disagree
That’s fine, I disagree with you as well.
They’re propping up a system that was founded as a means to preserve America’s white majority in the face of increased non-white immigration, by currently shoving so many Latin American folks into these facilities that they overcrowd to the point they’re over capacity by over seven hundred percent.
Like you can argue till you’re blue in the face that Biden doesn’t have racial animus in his heart. But his administration is still executing racist policy, because it is targeting a racially othered group disproportionately and continuing to exacerbate racial inequity against Latin Americans
"There's no question that this is a challenging situation," Harris said in remarks ahead of a meeting with Biden, Health and Human Services Secretary Xavier Becerra and Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas on Wednesday. "While we are clear that people should not come to the border now, we also understand that we will enforce the law, and that we also, because we can chew gum and walk at the same time, must address the root causes that cause people to make the trek."
Don't come here is not that compelling to me because you also say the phrase "root causes," on your way to not quite give some government what's not quite quid-pro-quo to get them to close the borders. And if that's what you're about, then maybe make it clear early so we could actually have a useful discussion about what we're getting.
So if I understand correctly, the argument here is "the immigration crisis is fueled by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia" versus "the immigration crisis is fueled by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia, but in slightly different proportions"?
The argument is that racism is the driver for our treatment of Latin immigrants, because ultimately the unspoken truth of US immigration policy, even for democrats, is that they don’t want a racial other joining the US in large numbers.
So we round them into camps for their own... “protection,” while just so happening denying them access to lawyers, locking down the ability to report on the condition of the camps, for their “protection,” while cramming them into cramped spaces where they’re several times over capacity in the midst of a lethal pandemic.... for their “protection”
[because the protection of the interred isn’t the actual point. The detainment and horror stories meant to dissuade others from attempting to immigrate was the point]
So you're on team "immigration policy is driven by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia" then?
Like, nobody here has argued that this crisis isn't driven by racism. Nobody has argued that it's only Republicans that have shitty views. There was some pushback on the notion that there would be no crisis if the immigrants were all white, which is kind of like saying there would be no poverty if we abolished money in terms of useful commentary.
Ultimately, I don't even see what the point of contention is.
The point of contention is that the administration is hurting large swaths of Latino folks in a project rooted in white supremacy, to accomplish the goal of maintaining white supremacy, by creating the precise image that the fate of those currently interned in our camps will be the fate of any others who try to escape the kind of nightmarish conditions that would cause people to flee for thousands of miles from their homes, on a gamble that they can make a better life in “the greatest country in the world.”
So "our immigration policy is based on racism, nationalism and xenophobia" but with more exclamation points.
Sorry, this just feels a bit like someone saying "there's a dog" and you respond with "no you FOOL can't you see that IT'S A DOG Jesus fucking CHRIST."
marathon said that race wasn't a component of this policy. that's what people were responding to. what are you doing?
No, what I said is that the Biden administration’s actions are not driven by racism.
Which doesn't square with things like upholding Steven Miller's recommendation. Biden probably does not have racism in his heart, but does he seems to like the structures the racists before him put in place.
I mean, our immigration system is a convoluted mass comprised of many organizations, constrained by a lot of laws and court rulings, and populated by tens of thousands of people at all levels. Some of those people want to do good, and some of them are just there to get their racist jollies. And all of it rests upon a bedrock of racism, nationalism, and xenophobia. Further, it all works amidst a global environment itself shaped by millenia of racism, nationalism, and xenophobia.
I like to think everyone here is comfortable with those as our priors, yes?
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
So if I understand correctly, the argument here is "the immigration crisis is fueled by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia" versus "the immigration crisis is fueled by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia, but in slightly different proportions"?
The argument is that racism is the driver for our treatment of Latin immigrants, because ultimately the unspoken truth of US immigration policy, even for democrats, is that they don’t want a racial other joining the US in large numbers.
So we round them into camps for their own... “protection,” while just so happening denying them access to lawyers, locking down the ability to report on the condition of the camps, for their “protection,” while cramming them into cramped spaces where they’re several times over capacity in the midst of a lethal pandemic.... for their “protection”
[because the protection of the interred isn’t the actual point. The detainment and horror stories meant to dissuade others from attempting to immigrate was the point]
So you're on team "immigration policy is driven by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia" then?
Like, nobody here has argued that this crisis isn't driven by racism. Nobody has argued that it's only Republicans that have shitty views. There was some pushback on the notion that there would be no crisis if the immigrants were all white, which is kind of like saying there would be no poverty if we abolished money in terms of useful commentary.
Ultimately, I don't even see what the point of contention is.
The point of contention is that the administration is hurting large swaths of Latino folks in a project rooted in white supremacy, to accomplish the goal of maintaining white supremacy, by creating the precise image that the fate of those currently interned in our camps will be the fate of any others who try to escape the kind of nightmarish conditions that would cause people to flee for thousands of miles from their homes, on a gamble that they can make a better life in “the greatest country in the world.”
So "our immigration policy is based on racism, nationalism and xenophobia" but with more exclamation points.
Sorry, this just feels a bit like someone saying "there's a dog" and you respond with "no you FOOL can't you see that IT'S A DOG Jesus fucking CHRIST."
marathon said that race wasn't a component of this policy. that's what people were responding to. what are you doing?
No, what I said is that the Biden administration’s actions are not driven by racism.
This is where several of us disagree
That’s fine, I disagree with you as well.
They’re propping up a system that was founded as a means to preserve America’s white majority in the face of increased non-white immigration, by currently shoving so many Latin American folks into these facilities that they overcrowd to the point they’re over capacity by over seven hundred percent.
Like you can argue till you’re blue in the face that Biden doesn’t have racial animus in his heart. But his administration is still executing racist policy, because it is targeting a racially othered group disproportionately and continuing to exacerbate racial inequity against Latin Americans
I think you’re conflating two issues to make it one about race. I don’t agree that they are putting these people into these centers to prop up racism or racist systems.
They are being held there because we can’t just release them, they aren’t American citizens, because of the pandemic, and because we need to ensure where they intend on going at the end of the day is safe.
I don’t agree that it’s targeting a race. The consequence of so many people from Southern countries migrating to the US, almost by definition means that they will be effected. But that’s the reality of geography, that’s not intent.
Yes, I understand that the idea of limiting entry into the country at all has roots in racism. But that doesn’t mean that any and all efforts to exert control or order over who enters the US are also racist.
+1
Shortytouching the meatIntergalactic Cool CourtRegistered Userregular
They’re propping up a system that was founded as a means to preserve America’s white majority in the face of increased non-white immigration, by currently shoving so many Latin American folks into these facilities that they overcrowd to the point they’re over capacity by over seven hundred percent.
Like you can argue till you’re blue in the face that Biden doesn’t have racial animus in his heart. But his administration is still executing racist policy, because it is targeting a racially othered group disproportionately and continuing to exacerbate racial inequity against Latin Americans
I think you’re conflating two issues to make it one about race. I don’t agree that they are putting these people into these centers to prop up racism or racist systems.
They are being held there because we can’t just release them, they aren’t American citizens, because of the pandemic, and because we need to ensure where they intend on going at the end of the day is safe.
I don’t agree that it’s targeting a race. The consequence of so many people from Southern countries migrating to the US, almost by definition means that they will be effected. But that’s the reality of geography, that’s not intent.
Yes, I understand that the idea of limiting entry into the country at all has roots in racism. But that doesn’t mean that any and all efforts to exert control or order over who enters the US are also racist.
I mean, our immigration system is a convoluted mass comprised of many organizations, constrained by a lot of laws and court rulings, and populated by tens of thousands of people at all levels. Some of those people want to do good, and some of them are just there to get their racist jollies. And all of it rests upon a bedrock of racism, nationalism, and xenophobia. Further, it all works amidst a global environment itself shaped by millenia of racism, nationalism, and xenophobia.
I like to think everyone here is comfortable with those as our priors, yes?
So if I understand correctly, the argument here is "the immigration crisis is fueled by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia" versus "the immigration crisis is fueled by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia, but in slightly different proportions"?
The argument is that racism is the driver for our treatment of Latin immigrants, because ultimately the unspoken truth of US immigration policy, even for democrats, is that they don’t want a racial other joining the US in large numbers.
So we round them into camps for their own... “protection,” while just so happening denying them access to lawyers, locking down the ability to report on the condition of the camps, for their “protection,” while cramming them into cramped spaces where they’re several times over capacity in the midst of a lethal pandemic.... for their “protection”
[because the protection of the interred isn’t the actual point. The detainment and horror stories meant to dissuade others from attempting to immigrate was the point]
So you're on team "immigration policy is driven by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia" then?
Like, nobody here has argued that this crisis isn't driven by racism. Nobody has argued that it's only Republicans that have shitty views. There was some pushback on the notion that there would be no crisis if the immigrants were all white, which is kind of like saying there would be no poverty if we abolished money in terms of useful commentary.
Ultimately, I don't even see what the point of contention is.
The point of contention is that the administration is hurting large swaths of Latino folks in a project rooted in white supremacy, to accomplish the goal of maintaining white supremacy, by creating the precise image that the fate of those currently interned in our camps will be the fate of any others who try to escape the kind of nightmarish conditions that would cause people to flee for thousands of miles from their homes, on a gamble that they can make a better life in “the greatest country in the world.”
So "our immigration policy is based on racism, nationalism and xenophobia" but with more exclamation points.
Sorry, this just feels a bit like someone saying "there's a dog" and you respond with "no you FOOL can't you see that IT'S A DOG Jesus fucking CHRIST."
marathon said that race wasn't a component of this policy. that's what people were responding to. what are you doing?
No, what I said is that the Biden administration’s actions are not driven by racism.
This is where several of us disagree
That’s fine, I disagree with you as well.
They’re propping up a system that was founded as a means to preserve America’s white majority in the face of increased non-white immigration, by currently shoving so many Latin American folks into these facilities that they overcrowd to the point they’re over capacity by over seven hundred percent.
Like you can argue till you’re blue in the face that Biden doesn’t have racial animus in his heart. But his administration is still executing racist policy, because it is targeting a racially othered group disproportionately and continuing to exacerbate racial inequity against Latin Americans
I think you’re conflating two issues to make it one about race. I don’t agree that they are putting these people into these centers to prop up racism or racist systems.
They are being held there because we can’t just release them, they aren’t American citizens, because of the pandemic, and because we need to ensure where they intend on going at the end of the day is safe.
I don’t agree that it’s targeting a race. The consequence of so many people from Southern countries migrating to the US, almost by definition means that they will be effected. But that’s the reality of geography, that’s not intent.
Yes, I understand that the idea of limiting entry into the country at all has roots in racism. But that doesn’t mean that any and all efforts to exert control or order over who enters the US are also racist.
It makes a lot more sense when you realize racist things aren’t simply a bad thing a person feels, but is the unequal outcomes of policy that create racial inequity.
The things you said can be true AND still be racist, because the result the system spits out from those inputs is racist. Ask yourself WHY it is that the influx is from all those countries specifically; don’t allow yourself to just stop at “well, the reality of geography.”
And yeah, it kind of does mean that it’s racist, because that is why the restrictions were implemented to begin with. Immigration was unrestricted for literal generations in America, until the wrong people started immigrating in numbers that started outpacing white immigration. That was the point. And given the realities of immigration to the US, is still largely such given that they are being used so heavily against Latin American immigrants
They’re propping up a system that was founded as a means to preserve America’s white majority in the face of increased non-white immigration, by currently shoving so many Latin American folks into these facilities that they overcrowd to the point they’re over capacity by over seven hundred percent.
Like you can argue till you’re blue in the face that Biden doesn’t have racial animus in his heart. But his administration is still executing racist policy, because it is targeting a racially othered group disproportionately and continuing to exacerbate racial inequity against Latin Americans
I think you’re conflating two issues to make it one about race. I don’t agree that they are putting these people into these centers to prop up racism or racist systems.
They are being held there because we can’t just release them, they aren’t American citizens, because of the pandemic, and because we need to ensure where they intend on going at the end of the day is safe.
I don’t agree that it’s targeting a race. The consequence of so many people from Southern countries migrating to the US, almost by definition means that they will be effected. But that’s the reality of geography, that’s not intent.
Yes, I understand that the idea of limiting entry into the country at all has roots in racism. But that doesn’t mean that any and all efforts to exert control or order over who enters the US are also racist.
I mean, our immigration system is a convoluted mass comprised of many organizations, constrained by a lot of laws and court rulings, and populated by tens of thousands of people at all levels. Some of those people want to do good, and some of them are just there to get their racist jollies. And all of it rests upon a bedrock of racism, nationalism, and xenophobia. Further, it all works amidst a global environment itself shaped by millenia of racism, nationalism, and xenophobia.
I like to think everyone here is comfortable with those as our priors, yes?
doesn't seem that way, no
“ Yes, I understand that the idea of limiting entry into the country at all has roots in racism.”
So if I understand correctly, the argument here is "the immigration crisis is fueled by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia" versus "the immigration crisis is fueled by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia, but in slightly different proportions"?
The argument is that racism is the driver for our treatment of Latin immigrants, because ultimately the unspoken truth of US immigration policy, even for democrats, is that they don’t want a racial other joining the US in large numbers.
So we round them into camps for their own... “protection,” while just so happening denying them access to lawyers, locking down the ability to report on the condition of the camps, for their “protection,” while cramming them into cramped spaces where they’re several times over capacity in the midst of a lethal pandemic.... for their “protection”
[because the protection of the interred isn’t the actual point. The detainment and horror stories meant to dissuade others from attempting to immigrate was the point]
So you're on team "immigration policy is driven by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia" then?
Like, nobody here has argued that this crisis isn't driven by racism. Nobody has argued that it's only Republicans that have shitty views. There was some pushback on the notion that there would be no crisis if the immigrants were all white, which is kind of like saying there would be no poverty if we abolished money in terms of useful commentary.
Ultimately, I don't even see what the point of contention is.
The point of contention is that the administration is hurting large swaths of Latino folks in a project rooted in white supremacy, to accomplish the goal of maintaining white supremacy, by creating the precise image that the fate of those currently interned in our camps will be the fate of any others who try to escape the kind of nightmarish conditions that would cause people to flee for thousands of miles from their homes, on a gamble that they can make a better life in “the greatest country in the world.”
So "our immigration policy is based on racism, nationalism and xenophobia" but with more exclamation points.
Sorry, this just feels a bit like someone saying "there's a dog" and you respond with "no you FOOL can't you see that IT'S A DOG Jesus fucking CHRIST."
marathon said that race wasn't a component of this policy. that's what people were responding to. what are you doing?
No, what I said is that the Biden administration’s actions are not driven by racism.
This is where several of us disagree
That’s fine, I disagree with you as well.
They’re propping up a system that was founded as a means to preserve America’s white majority in the face of increased non-white immigration, by currently shoving so many Latin American folks into these facilities that they overcrowd to the point they’re over capacity by over seven hundred percent.
Like you can argue till you’re blue in the face that Biden doesn’t have racial animus in his heart. But his administration is still executing racist policy, because it is targeting a racially othered group disproportionately and continuing to exacerbate racial inequity against Latin Americans
I think you’re conflating two issues to make it one about race. I don’t agree that they are putting these people into these centers to prop up racism or racist systems.
They are being held there because we can’t just release them, they aren’t American citizens, because of the pandemic, and because we need to ensure where they intend on going at the end of the day is safe.
I don’t agree that it’s targeting a race. The consequence of so many people from Southern countries migrating to the US, almost by definition means that they will be effected. But that’s the reality of geography, that’s not intent.
Yes, I understand that the idea of limiting entry into the country at all has roots in racism. But that doesn’t mean that any and all efforts to exert control or order over who enters the US are also racist.
I understand that your inclination is typically one of blind defense, but I would sincerely urge you to perform some introspection on your stance of 'we're keeping them there for their own good'
Seriously. The desire to defend the party that you voted for should not be allowed to warp your perspective in such a way.
Lawrence O'Donnell had a good segment last night, talking about how immigration in this country through the southern border is such a shitshow because everything traces back to it being stolen land and a border taken by force through war. That there's no "crisis" because this is a regular seasonal occurrence, people are always coming and adding more border patrol agents doesn't do anything to change that. It just makes things less humane for those who arrive. Because this is a border established by force, with the stolen land being some of the most valuable on the planet, the immigration situation is permanent and has been for our entire lives- nothing is going to stop people from wanting to come up here.
Unfortunately at the end he frames it like the Republicans are the only ones who choose cruelty over humanity. After saying that every single president since the border was created has failed on immigration he a few minutes later says Joe Biden is the one choosing humanity and is the way forward.
So... that's a bit of a shame, but I think the message about the historical context is interesting.
So if I understand correctly, the argument here is "the immigration crisis is fueled by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia" versus "the immigration crisis is fueled by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia, but in slightly different proportions"?
The argument is that racism is the driver for our treatment of Latin immigrants, because ultimately the unspoken truth of US immigration policy, even for democrats, is that they don’t want a racial other joining the US in large numbers.
So we round them into camps for their own... “protection,” while just so happening denying them access to lawyers, locking down the ability to report on the condition of the camps, for their “protection,” while cramming them into cramped spaces where they’re several times over capacity in the midst of a lethal pandemic.... for their “protection”
[because the protection of the interred isn’t the actual point. The detainment and horror stories meant to dissuade others from attempting to immigrate was the point]
So you're on team "immigration policy is driven by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia" then?
Like, nobody here has argued that this crisis isn't driven by racism. Nobody has argued that it's only Republicans that have shitty views. There was some pushback on the notion that there would be no crisis if the immigrants were all white, which is kind of like saying there would be no poverty if we abolished money in terms of useful commentary.
Ultimately, I don't even see what the point of contention is.
The point of contention is that the administration is hurting large swaths of Latino folks in a project rooted in white supremacy, to accomplish the goal of maintaining white supremacy, by creating the precise image that the fate of those currently interned in our camps will be the fate of any others who try to escape the kind of nightmarish conditions that would cause people to flee for thousands of miles from their homes, on a gamble that they can make a better life in “the greatest country in the world.”
So "our immigration policy is based on racism, nationalism and xenophobia" but with more exclamation points.
Sorry, this just feels a bit like someone saying "there's a dog" and you respond with "no you FOOL can't you see that IT'S A DOG Jesus fucking CHRIST."
marathon said that race wasn't a component of this policy. that's what people were responding to. what are you doing?
No, what I said is that the Biden administration’s actions are not driven by racism.
This is where several of us disagree
That’s fine, I disagree with you as well.
They’re propping up a system that was founded as a means to preserve America’s white majority in the face of increased non-white immigration, by currently shoving so many Latin American folks into these facilities that they overcrowd to the point they’re over capacity by over seven hundred percent.
Like you can argue till you’re blue in the face that Biden doesn’t have racial animus in his heart. But his administration is still executing racist policy, because it is targeting a racially othered group disproportionately and continuing to exacerbate racial inequity against Latin Americans
I think you’re conflating two issues to make it one about race. I don’t agree that they are putting these people into these centers to prop up racism or racist systems.
They are being held there because we can’t just release them, they aren’t American citizens, because of the pandemic, and because we need to ensure where they intend on going at the end of the day is safe.
I don’t agree that it’s targeting a race. The consequence of so many people from Southern countries migrating to the US, almost by definition means that they will be effected. But that’s the reality of geography, that’s not intent.
Yes, I understand that the idea of limiting entry into the country at all has roots in racism. But that doesn’t mean that any and all efforts to exert control or order over who enters the US are also racist.
I understand that your inclination is typically one of blind defense, but I would sincerely urge you to perform some introspection on your stance of 'we're keeping them there for their own good'
Seriously. The desire to defend the party that you voted for should not be allowed to warp your perspective in such a way.
This response is so patronizing and so intent on viewing my position in nothing but the most bad faith interpretation possible that I have absolutely no desire, or reason to engage with you on this topic further Javen. This will be my last response to any comment you direct my way in this thread.
Lawrence O'Donnell had a good segment last night, talking about how immigration in this country through the southern border is such a shitshow because everything traces back to it being stolen land and a border taken by force through war. That there's no "crisis" because this is a regular seasonal occurrence, people are always coming and adding more border patrol agents doesn't do anything to change that. It just makes things less humane for those who arrive. Because this is a border established by force, with the stolen land being some of the most valuable on the planet, the immigration situation is permanent and has been for our entire lives- nothing is going to stop people from wanting to come up here.
Unfortunately at the end he frames it like the Republicans are the only ones who choose cruelty over humanity. After saying that every single president since the border was created has failed on immigration he a few minutes later says Joe Biden is the one choosing humanity and is the way forward.
So... that's a bit of a shame, but I think the message about the historical context is interesting.
Yeah, this is a specific thing that gets ignored a lot in favor of law and order approaches to immigration, along with ignoring even the more general way human migration has worked since, well, forever.
Citation needed on most valuable land on the planet. Much of the border is uninhabited scrubland. It's pretty, and ecologically valuable but not terribly economily viable.
Besides, that argument would apply to most borders around the planet, many of which don't have anywhere near the number of people trying to cross come hell or high water.
+3
Shortytouching the meatIntergalactic Cool CourtRegistered Userregular
They’re propping up a system that was founded as a means to preserve America’s white majority in the face of increased non-white immigration, by currently shoving so many Latin American folks into these facilities that they overcrowd to the point they’re over capacity by over seven hundred percent.
Like you can argue till you’re blue in the face that Biden doesn’t have racial animus in his heart. But his administration is still executing racist policy, because it is targeting a racially othered group disproportionately and continuing to exacerbate racial inequity against Latin Americans
I think you’re conflating two issues to make it one about race. I don’t agree that they are putting these people into these centers to prop up racism or racist systems.
They are being held there because we can’t just release them, they aren’t American citizens, because of the pandemic, and because we need to ensure where they intend on going at the end of the day is safe.
I don’t agree that it’s targeting a race. The consequence of so many people from Southern countries migrating to the US, almost by definition means that they will be effected. But that’s the reality of geography, that’s not intent.
Yes, I understand that the idea of limiting entry into the country at all has roots in racism. But that doesn’t mean that any and all efforts to exert control or order over who enters the US are also racist.
I mean, our immigration system is a convoluted mass comprised of many organizations, constrained by a lot of laws and court rulings, and populated by tens of thousands of people at all levels. Some of those people want to do good, and some of them are just there to get their racist jollies. And all of it rests upon a bedrock of racism, nationalism, and xenophobia. Further, it all works amidst a global environment itself shaped by millenia of racism, nationalism, and xenophobia.
I like to think everyone here is comfortable with those as our priors, yes?
doesn't seem that way, no
“ Yes, I understand that the idea of limiting entry into the country at all has roots in racism.”
Want to try again?
no, I don't interact with people once they make it clear that they're going to make it as deliberately unpleasant as they can without the hall monitors getting them in trouble. which sucks, because that's what you want, but life's too short.
So if I understand correctly, the argument here is "the immigration crisis is fueled by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia" versus "the immigration crisis is fueled by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia, but in slightly different proportions"?
The argument is that racism is the driver for our treatment of Latin immigrants, because ultimately the unspoken truth of US immigration policy, even for democrats, is that they don’t want a racial other joining the US in large numbers.
So we round them into camps for their own... “protection,” while just so happening denying them access to lawyers, locking down the ability to report on the condition of the camps, for their “protection,” while cramming them into cramped spaces where they’re several times over capacity in the midst of a lethal pandemic.... for their “protection”
[because the protection of the interred isn’t the actual point. The detainment and horror stories meant to dissuade others from attempting to immigrate was the point]
So you're on team "immigration policy is driven by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia" then?
Like, nobody here has argued that this crisis isn't driven by racism. Nobody has argued that it's only Republicans that have shitty views. There was some pushback on the notion that there would be no crisis if the immigrants were all white, which is kind of like saying there would be no poverty if we abolished money in terms of useful commentary.
Ultimately, I don't even see what the point of contention is.
The point of contention is that the administration is hurting large swaths of Latino folks in a project rooted in white supremacy, to accomplish the goal of maintaining white supremacy, by creating the precise image that the fate of those currently interned in our camps will be the fate of any others who try to escape the kind of nightmarish conditions that would cause people to flee for thousands of miles from their homes, on a gamble that they can make a better life in “the greatest country in the world.”
So "our immigration policy is based on racism, nationalism and xenophobia" but with more exclamation points.
Sorry, this just feels a bit like someone saying "there's a dog" and you respond with "no you FOOL can't you see that IT'S A DOG Jesus fucking CHRIST."
marathon said that race wasn't a component of this policy. that's what people were responding to. what are you doing?
No, what I said is that the Biden administration’s actions are not driven by racism.
This is where several of us disagree
That’s fine, I disagree with you as well.
They’re propping up a system that was founded as a means to preserve America’s white majority in the face of increased non-white immigration, by currently shoving so many Latin American folks into these facilities that they overcrowd to the point they’re over capacity by over seven hundred percent.
Like you can argue till you’re blue in the face that Biden doesn’t have racial animus in his heart. But his administration is still executing racist policy, because it is targeting a racially othered group disproportionately and continuing to exacerbate racial inequity against Latin Americans
I think you’re conflating two issues to make it one about race. I don’t agree that they are putting these people into these centers to prop up racism or racist systems.
They are being held there because we can’t just release them, they aren’t American citizens, because of the pandemic, and because we need to ensure where they intend on going at the end of the day is safe.
I don’t agree that it’s targeting a race. The consequence of so many people from Southern countries migrating to the US, almost by definition means that they will be effected. But that’s the reality of geography, that’s not intent.
Yes, I understand that the idea of limiting entry into the country at all has roots in racism. But that doesn’t mean that any and all efforts to exert control or order over who enters the US are also racist.
I understand that your inclination is typically one of blind defense, but I would sincerely urge you to perform some introspection on your stance of 'we're keeping them there for their own good'
Seriously. The desire to defend the party that you voted for should not be allowed to warp your perspective in such a way.
This response is so patronizing and so intent on viewing my position in nothing but the most bad faith interpretation possible that I have absolutely no desire, or reason to engage with you on this topic further Javen. This will be my last response to any comment you direct my way in this thread.
In Javen’s defense you’ve not made a particularly strong argument about why the administrations actions have been defensible. Even this page has been mostly statement and declaration without any actual argument as to why these statements and declarations have merit. Just that we should have faith that Biden is and will do the right thing
Citation needed on most valuable land on the planet. Much of the border is uninhabited scrubland. It's pretty, and ecologically valuable but not terribly economily viable.
Besides, that argument would apply to most borders around the planet, many of which don't have anywhere near the number of people trying to cross come hell or high water.
Europe was dealing with it's own refugee issue recently. Probably still is honestly or would be without the pandemic. Basically most of the same moves at work too by the governments.
So if I understand correctly, the argument here is "the immigration crisis is fueled by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia" versus "the immigration crisis is fueled by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia, but in slightly different proportions"?
The argument is that racism is the driver for our treatment of Latin immigrants, because ultimately the unspoken truth of US immigration policy, even for democrats, is that they don’t want a racial other joining the US in large numbers.
So we round them into camps for their own... “protection,” while just so happening denying them access to lawyers, locking down the ability to report on the condition of the camps, for their “protection,” while cramming them into cramped spaces where they’re several times over capacity in the midst of a lethal pandemic.... for their “protection”
[because the protection of the interred isn’t the actual point. The detainment and horror stories meant to dissuade others from attempting to immigrate was the point]
So you're on team "immigration policy is driven by racism, nationalism, and xenophobia" then?
Like, nobody here has argued that this crisis isn't driven by racism. Nobody has argued that it's only Republicans that have shitty views. There was some pushback on the notion that there would be no crisis if the immigrants were all white, which is kind of like saying there would be no poverty if we abolished money in terms of useful commentary.
Ultimately, I don't even see what the point of contention is.
The point of contention is that the administration is hurting large swaths of Latino folks in a project rooted in white supremacy, to accomplish the goal of maintaining white supremacy, by creating the precise image that the fate of those currently interned in our camps will be the fate of any others who try to escape the kind of nightmarish conditions that would cause people to flee for thousands of miles from their homes, on a gamble that they can make a better life in “the greatest country in the world.”
So "our immigration policy is based on racism, nationalism and xenophobia" but with more exclamation points.
Sorry, this just feels a bit like someone saying "there's a dog" and you respond with "no you FOOL can't you see that IT'S A DOG Jesus fucking CHRIST."
marathon said that race wasn't a component of this policy. that's what people were responding to. what are you doing?
No, what I said is that the Biden administration’s actions are not driven by racism.
This is where several of us disagree
That’s fine, I disagree with you as well.
They’re propping up a system that was founded as a means to preserve America’s white majority in the face of increased non-white immigration, by currently shoving so many Latin American folks into these facilities that they overcrowd to the point they’re over capacity by over seven hundred percent.
Like you can argue till you’re blue in the face that Biden doesn’t have racial animus in his heart. But his administration is still executing racist policy, because it is targeting a racially othered group disproportionately and continuing to exacerbate racial inequity against Latin Americans
I think you’re conflating two issues to make it one about race. I don’t agree that they are putting these people into these centers to prop up racism or racist systems.
They are being held there because we can’t just release them, they aren’t American citizens, because of the pandemic, and because we need to ensure where they intend on going at the end of the day is safe.
I don’t agree that it’s targeting a race. The consequence of so many people from Southern countries migrating to the US, almost by definition means that they will be effected. But that’s the reality of geography, that’s not intent.
Yes, I understand that the idea of limiting entry into the country at all has roots in racism. But that doesn’t mean that any and all efforts to exert control or order over who enters the US are also racist.
I understand that your inclination is typically one of blind defense, but I would sincerely urge you to perform some introspection on your stance of 'we're keeping them there for their own good'
Seriously. The desire to defend the party that you voted for should not be allowed to warp your perspective in such a way.
That's fairly patronizing, but I'll take a crack at this.
Children / minors can't in good conscience be dumped onto the street. Nor can they be released into the custody of unknown / unvetted adults. Even if the present conditions are far from optimal, blindly releasing them into the nation where they may be lost, alone, or exploited is worse than keeping them in overcrowded facilities.
The ideal solution is to make sure they are held in humane and enriching facilities where they can be properly cared for until they are released into the care of (vetted, safe) adults who have the ability to provide for them.
This is of course for minors who arrive alone - family separation is indefensible in almost any circumstances - but assuming the facilities where they are held are properly staffed / have proper resources holding them until they can be safely placed is the right answer. Those facilities being lacking in resources is the big immediate issue. Put them two to a room in an empty Courtyard Marriot with one HHS social worker monitoring each floor? I'm mostly good with that,.
"We have to hold kids" loses some of its explanative power when they treat everyone like this.
So what do you propose to deal with the immediate problem we face today?
Edit - I'm all for eminent domaining a whole bunch of vacant resort properties / hotels, offering $50k bonuses for social workers that can pass background checks, and housing the kids there until either adequate facilities can be constructed, or the kids can be housed in (safe, vetted) homes or facilities and / or reunited with family.
Citation needed on most valuable land on the planet. Much of the border is uninhabited scrubland. It's pretty, and ecologically valuable but not terribly economily viable.
Besides, that argument would apply to most borders around the planet, many of which don't have anywhere near the number of people trying to cross come hell or high water.
Europe was dealing with it's own refugee issue recently. Probably still is honestly or would be without the pandemic. Basically most of the same moves at work too by the governments.
That's why I said many not all :P Besides in both cases a lot of the people migrating aren't from anywhere near the border which makes the "this is all because the land was stolen" argument pretty tenuous.
Posts
"Cohorting" or "pods" are a pretty common method that people have used to take precautions against Covid while still having some semblance of human connection. The idea is basically that you have a relatively small group of people with whom you interact, and those people all only interact with people in this small group. In this way, you limit your exposure to outside sources which may have Covid. There are limitations and downsides to this. First off, it requires everyone in the "cohort" to be acting very responsibly.... one person can screw it up for everyone. But even then, limiting exposure is still limiting exposure.
I'm not sure if there is any conclusive evidence on the effectiveness of these or such, but logically it seems like it should help, albeit not be as good as complete social distancing. It is not something new for immigrants or whatever, though.
In the photographs, it looks like the immigrants are separated out into groups, which are divided by the plastic barriers? Those could be intended to be some sort of "cohort" system, especially if they were described as "pods".
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It's probably intended to try and stop the slow of Covid through the facility, because if all the inmates are in contact with all the rest, the disease will infect nearly 100% of people if one person has it - they are so overcrowded.
Podding / cohorts are supported by science and can have some effectiveness, but from the pictures I highly doubt it is implemented properly and anything more than CYA theater.
The point of contention is that the administration is hurting large swaths of Latino folks in a project rooted in white supremacy, to accomplish the goal of maintaining white supremacy, by creating the precise image that the fate of those currently interned in our camps will be the fate of any others who try to escape the kind of nightmarish conditions that would cause people to flee for thousands of miles from their homes, on a gamble that they can make a better life in “the greatest country in the world.”
Fixing
As it sounds like they are severely restricted on leaving them to go for a walk outside or whatever?
Yeah, I'd agree.
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So "our immigration policy is based on racism, nationalism and xenophobia" but with more exclamation points.
Sorry, this just feels a bit like someone saying "there's a dog" and you respond with "no you FOOL can't you see that IT'S A DOG Jesus fucking CHRIST."
marathon said that race wasn't a component of this policy. that's what people were responding to. what are you doing?
when you pack them thirty to a cell in the middle of a pandemic they sure are
hitting hot metal with hammers
I’d argue it’s more like “that man appears to be purposefully mauling people with a very large dog that currently has that dude’s femur in his mouth”
And some folks are still going “I’m sure there is a very good reason the dog is eating that poor man’s leg”
It could also simply be administrative convenience. It's not clear either way.
Regardless there's not much they can do anyway if they are that overcrowded.
No, what I said is that the Biden administration’s actions are not driven by racism.
This is where several of us disagree
Its mostly the same people!
That’s fine, I disagree with you as well.
They’re propping up a system that was founded as a means to preserve America’s white majority in the face of increased non-white immigration, by currently shoving so many Latin American folks into these facilities that they overcrowd to the point they’re over capacity by over seven hundred percent.
Like you can argue till you’re blue in the face that Biden doesn’t have racial animus in his heart. But his administration is still executing racist policy, because it is targeting a racially othered group disproportionately and continuing to exacerbate racial inequity against Latin Americans
Don't come here is not that compelling to me because you also say the phrase "root causes," on your way to not quite give some government what's not quite quid-pro-quo to get them to close the borders. And if that's what you're about, then maybe make it clear early so we could actually have a useful discussion about what we're getting.
When did the Biden admin get access to a time machine?
Which doesn't square with things like upholding Steven Miller's recommendation. Biden probably does not have racism in his heart, but does he seems to like the structures the racists before him put in place.
I like to think everyone here is comfortable with those as our priors, yes?
I think you’re conflating two issues to make it one about race. I don’t agree that they are putting these people into these centers to prop up racism or racist systems.
They are being held there because we can’t just release them, they aren’t American citizens, because of the pandemic, and because we need to ensure where they intend on going at the end of the day is safe.
I don’t agree that it’s targeting a race. The consequence of so many people from Southern countries migrating to the US, almost by definition means that they will be effected. But that’s the reality of geography, that’s not intent.
Yes, I understand that the idea of limiting entry into the country at all has roots in racism. But that doesn’t mean that any and all efforts to exert control or order over who enters the US are also racist.
doesn't seem that way, no
It makes a lot more sense when you realize racist things aren’t simply a bad thing a person feels, but is the unequal outcomes of policy that create racial inequity.
The things you said can be true AND still be racist, because the result the system spits out from those inputs is racist. Ask yourself WHY it is that the influx is from all those countries specifically; don’t allow yourself to just stop at “well, the reality of geography.”
And yeah, it kind of does mean that it’s racist, because that is why the restrictions were implemented to begin with. Immigration was unrestricted for literal generations in America, until the wrong people started immigrating in numbers that started outpacing white immigration. That was the point. And given the realities of immigration to the US, is still largely such given that they are being used so heavily against Latin American immigrants
“ Yes, I understand that the idea of limiting entry into the country at all has roots in racism.”
Want to try again?
I understand that your inclination is typically one of blind defense, but I would sincerely urge you to perform some introspection on your stance of 'we're keeping them there for their own good'
Seriously. The desire to defend the party that you voted for should not be allowed to warp your perspective in such a way.
https://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word/watch/lawrence-history-shows-this-land-was-not-made-for-you-and-me-109002309919
Unfortunately at the end he frames it like the Republicans are the only ones who choose cruelty over humanity. After saying that every single president since the border was created has failed on immigration he a few minutes later says Joe Biden is the one choosing humanity and is the way forward.
So... that's a bit of a shame, but I think the message about the historical context is interesting.
This response is so patronizing and so intent on viewing my position in nothing but the most bad faith interpretation possible that I have absolutely no desire, or reason to engage with you on this topic further Javen. This will be my last response to any comment you direct my way in this thread.
Yeah, this is a specific thing that gets ignored a lot in favor of law and order approaches to immigration, along with ignoring even the more general way human migration has worked since, well, forever.
Besides, that argument would apply to most borders around the planet, many of which don't have anywhere near the number of people trying to cross come hell or high water.
no, I don't interact with people once they make it clear that they're going to make it as deliberately unpleasant as they can without the hall monitors getting them in trouble. which sucks, because that's what you want, but life's too short.
In Javen’s defense you’ve not made a particularly strong argument about why the administrations actions have been defensible. Even this page has been mostly statement and declaration without any actual argument as to why these statements and declarations have merit. Just that we should have faith that Biden is and will do the right thing
Europe was dealing with it's own refugee issue recently. Probably still is honestly or would be without the pandemic. Basically most of the same moves at work too by the governments.
That's fairly patronizing, but I'll take a crack at this.
Children / minors can't in good conscience be dumped onto the street. Nor can they be released into the custody of unknown / unvetted adults. Even if the present conditions are far from optimal, blindly releasing them into the nation where they may be lost, alone, or exploited is worse than keeping them in overcrowded facilities.
The ideal solution is to make sure they are held in humane and enriching facilities where they can be properly cared for until they are released into the care of (vetted, safe) adults who have the ability to provide for them.
This is of course for minors who arrive alone - family separation is indefensible in almost any circumstances - but assuming the facilities where they are held are properly staffed / have proper resources holding them until they can be safely placed is the right answer. Those facilities being lacking in resources is the big immediate issue. Put them two to a room in an empty Courtyard Marriot with one HHS social worker monitoring each floor? I'm mostly good with that,.
So what do you propose to deal with the immediate problem we face today?
Edit - I'm all for eminent domaining a whole bunch of vacant resort properties / hotels, offering $50k bonuses for social workers that can pass background checks, and housing the kids there until either adequate facilities can be constructed, or the kids can be housed in (safe, vetted) homes or facilities and / or reunited with family.
That's why I said many not all :P Besides in both cases a lot of the people migrating aren't from anywhere near the border which makes the "this is all because the land was stolen" argument pretty tenuous.