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Just fair warning Norms book has a lot of shitty transphobic jokes in it. Mostly in the las vegas part.
It really hurt's an otherwise great comedy novel
Thank you for the heads up. I had been thinking about picking it up and this would have been an extremely unpleasant surprise.
+3
TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
Norm didn't have a lot of impressions or skits, and SNL youtube deliberately won't put up some stuff like Norm roasting Stallone's movie choices in a skit, and his Charles Kuralt impression was spot on along with Jack Kavorkian (do people even know who these people are any more?!?!?!?!) but they do have some of his skits
He took what would have been a forgettable interview about a bad movie and turned it into a legendary roast with his quick, sharp wit.
This interview also perfectly encapsulates why Norm had a low ceiling to his career. Not a good company man.
This clip, the one of him making jokes about Steve Irwin 10 days after he died, and the one where he came back to host SNL a year and a half after he got fired ("How did I go in a year-and-a-half from being not funny enough to be even allowed in the building to being so funny that I'm now hosting the show? How did I suddenly get so goddamn funny?") are good examples of that.
But he was incredibly funny sometimes because he was willing to cross lines most people wouldn’t. And occasionally he crossed lines he really should not have. Because he was a human being and not perfect.
+2
TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
Is there anywhere you can find Norm roasting SNL in an opening monologue when he hosted because a couple years prior he was fired for not being funny?
here is the internet archive of the whole episode. They have almost all the episodes as aired (in shitty VHS quality natch) so you can even check out his first episodes when he wasn't Weekend Update anchor yet.
Is there anywhere you can find Norm roasting SNL in an opening monologue when he hosted because a couple years prior he was fired for not being funny?
here is the internet archive of the whole episode. They have almost all the episodes as aired (in shitty VHS quality natch) so you can even check out his first episodes when he wasn't Weekend Update anchor yet.
How the hell did I never realize John Mulaney's delivery is almost identical to Norm MacDonald's? I know he was a writer for the show and probably grew up on these episodes but damn if it isn't eerily similar.
"If complete and utter chaos was lightning, then he'd be the sort to stand on a hilltop in a thunderstorm wearing wet copper armour and shouting 'All gods are bastards'."
Funny was his thing. He was a liar in a way. He pretended to be an everyman while being deeply philosophical and into Russian lit and the terror and beauty of humanity. He lied through omission about his cancer. He lied about the personal so he could tell the truth about the universal. It was always a bit, which is what you want as a paying customer and the reason he always got real laughs (and real hate) but never pity laughs. Obligatory fuck cancer. Funniest comedian I ever saw live. A master of his craft which he always treated as a craft and not some big fucking metaphysical deal. RIP.
“Reject your sense of injury and the injury itself disappears.”
― Marcus Aurelius
Funny was his thing. He was a liar in a way. He pretended to be an everyman while being deeply philosophical and into Russian lit and the terror and beauty of humanity. He lied through omission about his cancer. He lied about the personal so he could tell the truth about the universal. It was always a bit, which is what you want as a paying customer and the reason he always got real laughs (and real hate) but never pity laughs. Obligatory fuck cancer. Funniest comedian I ever saw live. A master of his craft which he always treated as a craft and not some big fucking metaphysical deal. RIP.
I don't agree with the bolded. It's ok for celebrities to have a personal life, and I can't think of anything more personal than cancer.
I remember watching a youtube video a long time ago, I think from one of the creators from Cracked, talking about things that Hollywood gets wrong on social issues.
The recurring joke was they kept referring to Dirty Work as a surprising counter example of a movie that actually got things right, and then they ended with "Could Dirty Work be the most socially progressive movie of all time? Wait, no, that's stupid."
I remember watching a youtube video a long time ago, I think from one of the creators from Cracked, talking about things that Hollywood gets wrong on social issues.
The recurring joke was they kept referring to Dirty Work as a surprising counter example of a movie that actually got things right, and then they ended with "Could Dirty Work be the most socially progressive movie of all time? Wait, no, that's stupid."
Norm Macdonald could tell a long joke on Conan with the dumbest punch line and leave me dying.
He also thought #metoo went too far and thinks Louis CK and Roseanne were victims of the "lunatic left". He was also casually homophobic and transphobic and I'm glad his platform was never that large.
Norm Macdonald could tell a long joke on Conan with the dumbest punch line and leave me dying.
He also thought #metoo went too far and thinks Louis CK and Roseanne were victims of the "lunatic left". He was also casually homophobic and transphobic and I'm glad his platform was never that large.
He did try to apologize for that, at least, rather than doubling down. Since his main struggle was his secret battle with cancer, I doubt it was for the sake of his long term career prospects. I'm guessing that if people asking him about his homophobic/transphobic jokes in 2021, he would probably have a different view on them.
I don't think he ever said that Louis and Roseanne were victims of the "lunatic left," and he said outright that he would never defend their actions. What he said is that they were both long time friends of his, and they both have the shared experience of seeing their careers go up in flames in a single day after experiencing life at the to. He clarified to say that the victims obviously had it worse.
I probably shouldn't have put the quotes since he didn't exactly say that. I think the gist was still there, but he was referring to the lunacy of the left in response to one question and talking about how #metoo went too far in another question.
I still don't get it. Taking Jerry's explanation and supposing the losses are closer to equivalent, then that just makes it a neutral statement, not a hilarious one. I dunno about this George Burns guy he's gotta tighten things up a bit if he's going to go anywhere.
Ironically Norms death made me realize I need to be more honest with myself and now Im out as Trans to my girlfriend.
So hopefully that helps his karma a bit
I have a podcast now. It's about video games and anime!Find it here.
I don't think he ever said that Louis and Roseanne were victims of the "lunatic left," and he said outright that he would never defend their actions. What he said is that they were both long time friends of his, and they both have the shared experience of seeing their careers go up in flames in a single day after experiencing life at the to. He clarified to say that the victims obviously had it worse.
Did Norm acknowledge or give a negative opinion on what they did to earn that animosity? It irritates me when celebrities do this for their friends which make it sus, like John Goodman. Leaves an elephant in the room and makes me assume they were accepting of it but won't say it out loud, especially when they get angry when people ask them to condemn their friends when they're being assholes.
The 90's were extremely sexist and homophobic. Like, shockingly so. Not to excuse him or go all 'product of his time's about it. But that is relevant context when looking back at clips. It also makes me wonder what subconscious biases growing up in the midst of all that had on me and my peers.
I probably shouldn't have put the quotes since he didn't exactly say that. I think the gist was still there, but he was referring to the lunacy of the left in response to one question and talking about how #metoo went too far in another question.
He went on the View and seemed apologetic and regretful about it. You could question his sincerity on the matter, but lots of people in his position would have doubled own and made excuses, rather than simply admitting that he fucked up.
Truly offensive comedians generally fall into two categories: 1) Genuinely hateful person, and 2) Lazy comedian looking for easy laughs. Neither of these types would ever apologize, and they often try to hide behind "political incorrectness" as an excuse for why the audience isn't laughing, or why they aren't more successful. It's the audiences fault for not having a sense of humor, you see, it's not their own fault for failing to make the audience laugh. A lot of them are washed up has-beens who are bitter about the fact that they haven't been able to keep up with changing trends.
Norm was a true master of his craft with no real equal, the total opposite of a lazy comedian. Other comedians might be more hilarious or more insightful, but Norm deconstructed comedy itself. One of his best bits was when he realized that every other comedian was trying to be as offensive as possible during the Bob Saget roast, and he decided to do the complete opposite, making the audience laugh with the blandest jokes he could find (I assume that Norm simply googled "Roast jokes" on google and used the first match he found, because doing so would turn up a list of the jokes he used).
One of the things the interview points out is that he fucked up his initial apology by making fun of people with down syndrome, so then he had to apologize for the apology. But the important thing is: He did it. If someone like Jerry Seinfeld was in the same position, I'm sure that Seinfeld would have whined that everyone obviously knew what he meant and was being way to sensitive. But Norm acknowledges that he fucked up. Then a few minutes, after everyone has moved on, he brings it up on his own to apologize again. His past with homophobic and transphobic material is problematic, but I'm sure that his stance on these matters would have evolved the same way. A hack comedian would be afraid to change, because it means that they would need to come up with a new act, but Norm was never afraid of trying something new.
The 90's were extremely sexist and homophobic. Like, shockingly so. Not to excuse him or go all 'product of his time's about it. But that is relevant context when looking back at clips. It also makes me wonder what subconscious biases growing up in the midst of all that had on me and my peers.
All I’m saying about this is I’m glad it wasn’t my job to be in front of a camera trying to make people laugh in the 90s.
Fuck, if I could clear the first, like, 5 years of my post history here, I wouldn’t think twice.
(Insert joke about how I should actually clear my entire post history)
+14
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
The 90's were extremely sexist and homophobic. Like, shockingly so. Not to excuse him or go all 'product of his time's about it. But that is relevant context when looking back at clips. It also makes me wonder what subconscious biases growing up in the midst of all that had on me and my peers.
My favorite example of 90's bias is how people felt allowing minorities and women to also star in shows was somehow solving racism.
I mean it was a start, I'll admit.
But then you've got shit like Patch Adams completely rewriting the friend who died as a woman and made her the worst stereotype of "strong woman not actually strong and needs man" that the 90's were so fucking big on.
The 90's were extremely sexist and homophobic. Like, shockingly so. Not to excuse him or go all 'product of his time's about it. But that is relevant context when looking back at clips. It also makes me wonder what subconscious biases growing up in the midst of all that had on me and my peers.
All I’m saying about this is I’m glad it wasn’t my job to be in front of a camera trying to make people laugh in the 90s.
Fuck, if I could clear the first, like, 5 years of my post history here, I wouldn’t think twice.
(Insert joke about how I should actually clear my entire post history)
I bet if you Slip geebs a hundo he could do it
I have a podcast now. It's about video games and anime!Find it here.
I probably shouldn't have put the quotes since he didn't exactly say that. I think the gist was still there, but he was referring to the lunacy of the left in response to one question and talking about how #metoo went too far in another question.
He went on the View and seemed apologetic and regretful about it. You could question his sincerity on the matter, but lots of people in his position would have doubled own and made excuses, rather than simply admitting that he fucked up.
Truly offensive comedians generally fall into two categories: 1) Genuinely hateful person, and 2) Lazy comedian looking for easy laughs. Neither of these types would ever apologize, and they often try to hide behind "political incorrectness" as an excuse for why the audience isn't laughing, or why they aren't more successful. It's the audiences fault for not having a sense of humor, you see, it's not their own fault for failing to make the audience laugh. A lot of them are washed up has-beens who are bitter about the fact that they haven't been able to keep up with changing trends.
Norm was a true master of his craft with no real equal, the total opposite of a lazy comedian. Other comedians might be more hilarious or more insightful, but Norm deconstructed comedy itself. One of his best bits was when he realized that every other comedian was trying to be as offensive as possible during the Bob Saget roast, and he decided to do the complete opposite, making the audience laugh with the blandest jokes he could find (I assume that Norm simply googled "Roast jokes" on google and used the first match he found, because doing so would turn up a list of the jokes he used).
One of the things the interview points out is that he fucked up his initial apology by making fun of people with down syndrome, so then he had to apologize for the apology. But the important thing is: He did it. If someone like Jerry Seinfeld was in the same position, I'm sure that Seinfeld would have whined that everyone obviously knew what he meant and was being way to sensitive. But Norm acknowledges that he fucked up. Then a few minutes, after everyone has moved on, he brings it up on his own to apologize again. His past with homophobic and transphobic material is problematic, but I'm sure that his stance on these matters would have evolved the same way. A hack comedian would be afraid to change, because it means that they would need to come up with a new act, but Norm was never afraid of trying something new.
I'm a fan of his. I really don't disagree with anything you said, but I still think I'm better off not knowing more of his personal views.
I didn't see that View interview. A lot different from his last one.
I still don't get it. Taking Jerry's explanation and supposing the losses are closer to equivalent, then that just makes it a neutral statement, not a hilarious one. I dunno about this George Burns guy he's gotta tighten things up a bit if he's going to go anywhere.
The funny bit is that normal humans could never consider those two things as being equivalent, whereas these two inhuman monsters (i.e.- comedians) don’t seem to realize that someone might not consider the loss of their entire act to be on par with the loss of one’s mother, thereby rubbing salt in the man’s wound unintentionally.
reminds me of a chappelle bit about kramer when he goes "that's how I knew I was a comedian first and a black guy second. When I was watching that I thought damn! tough set"
I still don't get it. Taking Jerry's explanation and supposing the losses are closer to equivalent, then that just makes it a neutral statement, not a hilarious one. I dunno about this George Burns guy he's gotta tighten things up a bit if he's going to go anywhere.
The funny bit is that normal humans could never consider those two things as being equivalent, whereas these two inhuman monsters (i.e.- comedians) don’t seem to realize that someone might not consider the loss of their entire act to be on par with the loss of one’s mother, thereby rubbing salt in the man’s wound unintentionally.
To me it's funny because both explanations are valid and true, depending on your perspective. The exaggeration of equivalence is the actually comedic point, though.
I think all comics tend to circle the wagons when they see other comics get lit up and canceled, because it could just as easily have been them. Most modern standup IS mining the line the between the offensive and the mundane. After Shane Gillis got dropped from SNL for what was basically a poorly thought out and not very funny podcast bit, he had a fairly long gig on the Bonfire radio show with Dan Soder and Jay Oakerson because I think in large part, Oakerson's comedy isn't all that different than what was going on in that podcast.
Comedy that’s offensive for its own sake should be canceled, but sometimes offensive comedy is used as a way to show how shitty people are. A lot of Always Sunny episodes got taken down from Hulu because they contain blackface. But the point of those episodes wasn’t “blackface is funny”, it’s that some people think blackface is funny, they’re the worst, and they deserve to have bad things happen to them and be called out on it.
Humor is a tool. Norm didn’t always use it appropriately, so he was what all of us are: human. What matters is if his heart was in the right place, and if he tried to be better.
On the balance I think he was an all right person/ol’ chunk of coal.
I still don't get it. Taking Jerry's explanation and supposing the losses are closer to equivalent, then that just makes it a neutral statement, not a hilarious one. I dunno about this George Burns guy he's gotta tighten things up a bit if he's going to go anywhere.
It's because it's absurd but also has a nugget of truth.
Of course comparing the loss of a trunk to the loss of a loved one is absurd.
However the nugget of truth is that to a vaudeville act the loss of that trunk is akin to losing their entire livelihood which sure, isn't as traumatic as losing a loved one, but it is traumatic (hence nugget of truth rather than truth).
Thereby proving once again that by explaining a joke the humor dies a disappointing death.
+8
ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
I think all comics tend to circle the wagons when they see other comics get lit up and canceled, because it could just as easily have been them. Most modern standup IS mining the line the between the offensive and the mundane. After Shane Gillis got dropped from SNL for what was basically a poorly thought out and not very funny podcast bit, he had a fairly long gig on the Bonfire radio show with Dan Soder and Jay Oakerson because I think in large part, Oakerson's comedy isn't all that different than what was going on in that podcast.
The New York comedy scene has gotten sadly alt right friendly too. Since he got fired from SiriusXM, Anthony Cumia (formerly of the Opie and Anthony radio show) has spent years creating a safe space for racist and misogynist humor. This article has since been updated with some corrections, but the degrees of separation between Proud Boys podcasts and respected comedy clubs in NYC is disturbingly low.
Posts
This interview also perfectly encapsulates why Norm had a low ceiling to his career. Not a good company man.
Thank you for the heads up. I had been thinking about picking it up and this would have been an extremely unpleasant surprise.
(this is with Iron Man before his second fall off the wagon)
This clip, the one of him making jokes about Steve Irwin 10 days after he died, and the one where he came back to host SNL a year and a half after he got fired ("How did I go in a year-and-a-half from being not funny enough to be even allowed in the building to being so funny that I'm now hosting the show? How did I suddenly get so goddamn funny?") are good examples of that.
But he was incredibly funny sometimes because he was willing to cross lines most people wouldn’t. And occasionally he crossed lines he really should not have. Because he was a human being and not perfect.
here is the internet archive of the whole episode. They have almost all the episodes as aired (in shitty VHS quality natch) so you can even check out his first episodes when he wasn't Weekend Update anchor yet.
How the hell did I never realize John Mulaney's delivery is almost identical to Norm MacDonald's? I know he was a writer for the show and probably grew up on these episodes but damn if it isn't eerily similar.
― Marcus Aurelius
Path of Exile: themightypuck
I don't agree with the bolded. It's ok for celebrities to have a personal life, and I can't think of anything more personal than cancer.
Except for your vaccination status.
Cause that'll kill other people.
The recurring joke was they kept referring to Dirty Work as a surprising counter example of a movie that actually got things right, and then they ended with "Could Dirty Work be the most socially progressive movie of all time? Wait, no, that's stupid."
Does anyone know what I'm referring to by chance?
Obviously this:
He also thought #metoo went too far and thinks Louis CK and Roseanne were victims of the "lunatic left". He was also casually homophobic and transphobic and I'm glad his platform was never that large.
He did try to apologize for that, at least, rather than doubling down. Since his main struggle was his secret battle with cancer, I doubt it was for the sake of his long term career prospects. I'm guessing that if people asking him about his homophobic/transphobic jokes in 2021, he would probably have a different view on them.
I don't think he ever said that Louis and Roseanne were victims of the "lunatic left," and he said outright that he would never defend their actions. What he said is that they were both long time friends of his, and they both have the shared experience of seeing their careers go up in flames in a single day after experiencing life at the to. He clarified to say that the victims obviously had it worse.
I still don't get it. Taking Jerry's explanation and supposing the losses are closer to equivalent, then that just makes it a neutral statement, not a hilarious one. I dunno about this George Burns guy he's gotta tighten things up a bit if he's going to go anywhere.
So hopefully that helps his karma a bit
Did Norm acknowledge or give a negative opinion on what they did to earn that animosity? It irritates me when celebrities do this for their friends which make it sus, like John Goodman. Leaves an elephant in the room and makes me assume they were accepting of it but won't say it out loud, especially when they get angry when people ask them to condemn their friends when they're being assholes.
He went on the View and seemed apologetic and regretful about it. You could question his sincerity on the matter, but lots of people in his position would have doubled own and made excuses, rather than simply admitting that he fucked up.
Truly offensive comedians generally fall into two categories: 1) Genuinely hateful person, and 2) Lazy comedian looking for easy laughs. Neither of these types would ever apologize, and they often try to hide behind "political incorrectness" as an excuse for why the audience isn't laughing, or why they aren't more successful. It's the audiences fault for not having a sense of humor, you see, it's not their own fault for failing to make the audience laugh. A lot of them are washed up has-beens who are bitter about the fact that they haven't been able to keep up with changing trends.
Norm was a true master of his craft with no real equal, the total opposite of a lazy comedian. Other comedians might be more hilarious or more insightful, but Norm deconstructed comedy itself. One of his best bits was when he realized that every other comedian was trying to be as offensive as possible during the Bob Saget roast, and he decided to do the complete opposite, making the audience laugh with the blandest jokes he could find (I assume that Norm simply googled "Roast jokes" on google and used the first match he found, because doing so would turn up a list of the jokes he used).
One of the things the interview points out is that he fucked up his initial apology by making fun of people with down syndrome, so then he had to apologize for the apology. But the important thing is: He did it. If someone like Jerry Seinfeld was in the same position, I'm sure that Seinfeld would have whined that everyone obviously knew what he meant and was being way to sensitive. But Norm acknowledges that he fucked up. Then a few minutes, after everyone has moved on, he brings it up on his own to apologize again. His past with homophobic and transphobic material is problematic, but I'm sure that his stance on these matters would have evolved the same way. A hack comedian would be afraid to change, because it means that they would need to come up with a new act, but Norm was never afraid of trying something new.
All I’m saying about this is I’m glad it wasn’t my job to be in front of a camera trying to make people laugh in the 90s.
Fuck, if I could clear the first, like, 5 years of my post history here, I wouldn’t think twice.
(Insert joke about how I should actually clear my entire post history)
My favorite example of 90's bias is how people felt allowing minorities and women to also star in shows was somehow solving racism.
I mean it was a start, I'll admit.
But then you've got shit like Patch Adams completely rewriting the friend who died as a woman and made her the worst stereotype of "strong woman not actually strong and needs man" that the 90's were so fucking big on.
I bet if you Slip geebs a hundo he could do it
I'm a fan of his. I really don't disagree with anything you said, but I still think I'm better off not knowing more of his personal views.
I didn't see that View interview. A lot different from his last one.
They do a pretty OK job at parsing the genius vs. problematic stuff.
The funny bit is that normal humans could never consider those two things as being equivalent, whereas these two inhuman monsters (i.e.- comedians) don’t seem to realize that someone might not consider the loss of their entire act to be on par with the loss of one’s mother, thereby rubbing salt in the man’s wound unintentionally.
Thank you for recommending that, it was a good discussion and pretty insightful.
To me it's funny because both explanations are valid and true, depending on your perspective. The exaggeration of equivalence is the actually comedic point, though.
Humor is a tool. Norm didn’t always use it appropriately, so he was what all of us are: human. What matters is if his heart was in the right place, and if he tried to be better.
On the balance I think he was an all right person/ol’ chunk of coal.
It's because it's absurd but also has a nugget of truth.
Of course comparing the loss of a trunk to the loss of a loved one is absurd.
However the nugget of truth is that to a vaudeville act the loss of that trunk is akin to losing their entire livelihood which sure, isn't as traumatic as losing a loved one, but it is traumatic (hence nugget of truth rather than truth).
Thereby proving once again that by explaining a joke the humor dies a disappointing death.
The New York comedy scene has gotten sadly alt right friendly too. Since he got fired from SiriusXM, Anthony Cumia (formerly of the Opie and Anthony radio show) has spent years creating a safe space for racist and misogynist humor. This article has since been updated with some corrections, but the degrees of separation between Proud Boys podcasts and respected comedy clubs in NYC is disturbingly low.
Norm is usually not serious about the offensive stuff. He is just doing it for a laugh. Conan and Andy understood that.