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help saving a friend/in need of pro arguing skills
duckyswasugoi
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My friend has a girlfriend, which he has been going out with for 7 months now. They met in college and are currently living together during the school year. Clearly, she is the best thing that's ever happened to him. She cares more about him than I've seen anyone care for another person, she's extremely giving, and has put up with a lot of crap just to be with him. Although my friend realizes all he has, he has attempted to break up with her several times... the reason being that she is not a virgin. My friend grew up in a devoutly Catholic family and took a vow to save his virginity until marriage. Thus, he is agonizing over the fact that the girl he wished to marry did not wait for him. I sympathize for him, because the urge to refrain from sex is extremely hard for a guy going through puberty, and he's been very tempted before but persistently refused. After all that, he didn't get it in return. However, this did not bother him when they started going out. He would have moments where he would get upset if something reminded him of her past, but continued to stay with her. But recently it has been getting worse than ever. He continues to try and convince her to break up with him. He says that he will not actually break up with her because he knows if he does it will be the biggest mistake of his life. He says that she has so much to offer but he just can't appreciate it because of what happened, therefore he wants her to find someone else. His girlfriend, surprisingly, is putting up with all this. He started to be a jerk around her, intentionally not giving her what she wants. He even tells her he doesn't love her. Still, she continues to care for him. Even though I can feel his pain, I know he is being ridiculously childish about the situation. I know he loves her, and wants to be with her, but he just needs to snap out of it. My friend is probably the most stubborn person you'll ever meet, but I need to stop him from being this way. Even if it doesn't work out, he needs to overcome his thoughts, for the sake of his future relationships. He even admits he is wrong, but he says he cannot stop feeling this way. Unfortunately, I am not good at explaining things, or convincing people. I've tried telling him over and over again that he is being stupid. He has a girl that loves him, even after all this, and he continues to deny her just because she is not a virgin. He refuses to listen, but I know that he is waiting for someone to knock some sense into him... but in a way that he'll understand he is taking this way over his head. I just need help explaining it in a way that he will stop acting like a baby, and learn to look at reality.
duckyswasugoi on
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Unfortunately, until he screws another person or she dumps his ass for sheer lack of respect, I doubt he'll get off his high horse. Not for nothing is the definition of 'slut' 'someone who's scored more often than me'.
I suppose you might get some traction with pointing out that the christian principle of forgiveness and forgetting is being roundly ignored here, and that he's therefore crapping all over his own beliefs by being such a jackass, but then again the girl hasn't done anything that requires forgiveness.
1. Smack him upside the head literally and infrom him that is this day and age the possibility of his finding a virgin will drop very fast the older he gets. If he doesn't get his head out of his ass and soon he'll have a better chance of winning the lottery without buying a ticket than finding a girl who hasn't had sex yet.
2. Expain to his girlfriend that he is too stubborn to listen to reason and will only get worse. Despite how much pain it will bring she should go find someone else.
3. Talk her into fake leaving. Make it look like she really is dumping him and then go ice cold. Once your buddy realises what he lost he might get his head out of his ass and do what ever he has to do to win her back.
4. Talk to his pastor. He might be able to convince your friend that acceptance of someone despite their flaws and mistakes (aka forgiveness) is one of the most important aspects of being Christian.
EDIT - The Cat has some very good points. He is being very selfish to expect someone else to live their lives according to his beliefs.
tell your friend he's a bloody idiot and get over the fact that he's not going to pop her cherry.
Frankly, the girl deserves better than your friend. So what if she's not a virgin? Just because his virginity is important to him doesn't mean it's the end all and be all to her. He has no right to get pissed off at her. How would he feel if she started berating him for being a virgin because "you'll have no experience on our wedding night" and "oh great, now I get to suffer through all your awkward moments! :x "
I realize the virginity thing is his problem, not yours, but really . . . the fact that he acts so petty and mean to someone who cares about him leads me to believe he cares more about an intact hymen* than this human being who cares about him. Either that or he's envious of the fact that she's had sex and he hasn't.
* which a lot of virgins don't even have
His religous beleifs are his and his alone. They aren't hers. She made a choice to have sex and it was her decision only. What does he expect to happen if say she was a virgin till she got married then got divorced and then met him? Would he still refuse to date her?
As much as he is your friend it's alot easier to judge people in an ivory tower. Tell him to get over it. She made a choice so did he. She seems to respect his choice, why isn't he respecting hers?
Satans..... hints.....
All he's doing is fetishizing virginity in a way that has nothing to do with (the core of) his supposed religious convictions.
I mean... you break up with somebody because even though they are at the same standard as you now, they have slept with someone in the past? And then what? you find someone who has never slept with anyone and marry her? and sleep with her? Its so retarded it makes my head hurt.
HE should be thanking however she slept with initially because, really, its not as much fun as the pope makes out.
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that going to the pastor thing sounds pretty good. accepting people for who they are, and whatnot. if he really cared about this girl, shouldnt he look past this one "flaw" which isnt really a flaw? maybe he needs to break up with her and be a little more mature.
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Also vaginal reconstruction.
Practically, I like the talking to the pastor thing the best. Hopefully the pastor will be able to get through to him; hopefully he puts enough stock in the position the pastor holds to be able to listen to good advice from him, if not the same good advice from you. Plus the pastor probably has experience with talking to people about things like this.
The whole virginity issue is a red herring. Your friend has discovered somebody he really connects with, and that scares the shit out of him. If she were a virgin he'd find some other excuse to push her away. Nobody's perfect and if somebody's phobic enough of intimacy or commitment they can find fault in anybody.
And the girl he's found probably has issues, too. He's telling her he doesn't love her and deliberately treating her like shit, yet she's just sticking around and taking his abuse? Men who are that scared of intimacy tend to attract women who need to feel neglected or abused to be comfortable.
Solution? Tell your friend to shit or get off the pot. Either grow up and be a real partner, or dump the poor girl and get it over with. If he loves her, then he loves her enough to figure out a way to get over her sexual history. If he doesn't love her enough to get the fuck over it, he doesn't love her enough to waste her time or his own with a half-assed relationship.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Shit, if you managed to convince him to ask her to fork over thousands so a doctor can take a knife to her bits, maybe she'll finally see the light and dump his ass.
What the fuck kind of advice is that?
Honestly, this is a matter that can only be resolved by him and his girlfriend. She needs to get involved in the process somehow if she wants to save the relationship. The problem is beyond you, really.
Harsh, but fair.
Than shoulda locked the thread after his answer, because he's right.
Actually, social censure is a very effective method of letting someone know that their actions are incredibly shitty. If being told to his face won't let it sink in, maybe he'll start to think a little harder once he starts losing friends over the way he treats his girlfriend. If more people did that when faced with a friend who was abusive or drunken or otherwise sucking at life, there'd be a lot less of that going around.
As for the girlfriend, this is in no way her problem. She had nothing to apologise for in the first place, and by the sounds of the OP has gone well out of her way to make allowances. God knows I wouldn't be neatly so patient. Neither would most people.
On any normal campus there is usually a religious advisor of some sort, probably a chapel around as well. If this is not the case, you could always try to get in touch with his pastor back home and get the guy to call your friend or something.
Don't be surprised if the relationship doesn't work out anyway or turns into a clusterfuck with loads of tears drama. You said they were living together after 7 months, he has deliberately been mean to her and told (screamed at?) her that he doesn't love her. She on the other hand decided to live together with a guy after only 7 months and somehow figured it's a good idea to be with someone who is by all accounts a raging asshole.
that's the best advice I've seen. Since he is catholic suggest he talk to a priest. Most of the priests I've met (I am Catholic) are more resonable then your friend.
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Yeah but there are also those out there who think the same as him. For whatever reason, some Christians out there think that Christians should only date and marry other Christians. I guess it's because it's easier for them to drag you to hell than for you to drag them to heaven or something?
If you do go to a pastor, talk to them yourself first. If anything to at least make sure they aren't as fanatical about this issue as he is.
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You are right.
Still; the guy has got to listen to someone when it comes to his religion. He's obviously not going to listen to his friend here, let alone his blasphemous heathen girlfriend.
as a Catholic I can safely say most Catholics don't think like this anymore. Despite the rampant molestings, we happen to embrace a lot of modern ideas (not all but a lot) and have always been one of the more accepting religions.
A fantical catholic priest...they really dont exist in the sense I think you are thinking about.
PokeCode: 3952 3495 1748
However, it is horribly unfair of him to entertain a relationship with someone if he knows she isn't the one for him. This is the crux of the point to him: he is being a horrible person to her and being false to himself and his convictions. So the point is either 1) You are being mean to her and dishonest to yourself, and a coward. If it is so important to you, be forthright and end this peacefully and accept personal responsibility and guilt for ever letting it get this far. 2) Accept that you remain with her only because you are desperate for the ability to abandon your hang-ups about virginity. Be forthright and abadon those hangups like you so obviously desire to. Stop pussy-footing. 3) 1 or 2, there is no middle. The middle is hateful and destructive. Stop it now.
It sounds like he really doesn't want to marry her and he's using this as an excuse. If nothing else, he is simply nowhere near ready for marriage and won’t be for a long time.
That said, it might help if his girlfriend tried the “reborn virgin” thing. My aunt did this (same situation, except her now-husband isn’t a selfish dumbass) and things worked out very well for her.
I agree with this completely. I also don't think your friend is going to get a 'fair trial' on this particular board. Abstinence around here doesn't get its measure of respect, for a host of reasons. Bottom line though, saving yourself for marriage is a very difficult thing to do, and it has it rewards. It is, at its heart, a subjective value. If they are not on equal ground in this, then he should stop jerking around and let her go already. It's not something he's going to 'get over', you're not going to be able to change his mind, and most of all he won't be able to ignore the differences he has with his girlfriend if they ever do decide to get married.
It sounds like he's in one of those 90% relationships, where he likes ninety percent of the things about this girl. Maybe even more, who knows. But there is something that he finds unnacceptable, something that will drive him crazier over time, and so he is left with this 'thing' he does not like. Since marriage is one of those 100% things, it would be pretty goddamn unhealthy to try and suck it up for as long as it takes to try and make a go of a deeper relationship. It would always be there, eating him away. I don't agree with people telling your friend to 'suck it up'. Just not going to happen. It's done. Finito.
I definately think he should man up and face his problem instead of being an asshole. It's sounds like he's taking the cowards way out. Pretty classic stuff really in terms of pre-breakup behaivior. Act like a huge ass and damage the relationship enough that the eventual escape is easier to handle. He probably gets all kinds of flack about his beliefs, and may feel ashamed or embarrassed that he thinks having these beleifs is good enough reason to let someone go. In one way, I sympathize; in another, fuck him. If he beleives these things then he should stand up for them, and do what is right instead of what is convienient.
from what i remember of chasing amy didn't the main character lose his best friend, wrote an unpopular comic and had his girl rego gay?
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i've done that before tbh.
Chinese Fingercuffs Motherfucker!
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1) Loving God
2) Loving other people
3) Forgiving.
Simply tell your Catholic buddy, "Man, God forgives her, why can't you?" because he is being ridiculous. His girlfriend made a mistake, just like your buddy has, like you have, like I have, like the pope has. If we were perfect, Christ's sacrifice would've been in vain. His girlfriend is no exception to this rule.
Tell him that driving someone away intentionally like this is basically a roundabout way for him to break up with her and it will be his fault no matter what. He is punishing this poor girl for something that happened before they were ever together, he has no right at all to treat her like this. If it bothers him so badly he should have broken up with her when he found this out.
Your friend is being completely unreasonable and I feel bad for his girlfriend that she keeps putting up with his persecution because she is in love with him. I would tell him what you think about the situation one last time and then inform him that you will not associate with him until he either breaks up with the girl like a man or stops holding this over an innocent girls head.