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UAP/UFO Phenomenon: It's not aliens, until it is.

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  • zagdrobzagdrob Registered User regular
    jothki wrote: »
    When is the last time that we developed something that was genuinely scientifically revolutionary? I can't think of anything after nuclear fission, but it's harder to tell that sort of thing in hindsight. I guess microchips, probably?

    I'd say best candidates for something revolutionary in hindsight would be gravitational wave detection, cosmic background radiation, a ton of space stuff discovered / proven (black holes, active galaxies, exoplanets). Maybe a bunch of high energy physics stuff from colliders, neutrino detectors.

    Even a lot of planetary science was at most theorized even 100 years ago and we had never seen the moon or another planet up close - people didn't know Venus was a greenhouse hell. Not to mention biotechnology (DNA sequencing, CRISPR) and AI all definitely have major possible roles in space travel, exploration, or detection of alien life.

    We don't necessarily know which ones will suddenly give us a flash of insight and up a breakthrough, but all those things are genuine possibilities for answering some of these questions down the line. Not as core obvious basic and fundamental breakthroughs as things like radioactivity or relativity, but still pushing the boundaries in possibly important ways.

  • DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Fission was discovered in the late 1930s and predates the (general) availability of penicillin.

    Suffice to say a LOT has come after that.

  • DacDac Registered User regular
    Roz wrote: »
    What's nice is that JWST has confirmed that at least one assumption of the Fermi paradox (that the earth is not special) seems to be incorrect. It does appear that our type of planet with vast quantities of water deposits, in the habitable zone, with a single moon orbiting a single yellow star is rare. It may simply be the case that there are very few planets even capable of birthing complex intelligent life to begin with and we just happen to be the first.

    We have somewhere around 5500 confirmed exoplanets, not all of which have been characterized.

    Estimates vary, but even at the low end there's thought to be billions of planets in our galaxy.

    It's a little soon to be claiming that the JWST has confirmed anything about the 'specialness' of Earth. Earth-like conditions can be very rare and one-in-10,000,000, but if we take a conservative six billion planets in the galaxy, that's still, like, 600 Earths.

    It's also important to be careful of the foibles of the anthropic principle. A moon is useful for stirring up water, but not the only source of motion for chemistry, for example.

    Steam: catseye543
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  • VeeveeVeevee WisconsinRegistered User regular
    edited August 2023
    Confirmation of quantum theory is the one that sticks out to me as the last great advancement in science. Just about everything we have that would be considered high tech derives it's existence from our knowledge of quantum physics.

    Confirmation of gravity waves could be the next one, if it allows physiscts to finally accept that gravity is not a natural force carried by a particle like weak, strong, and electro-magnetism. They've been trying to square that circle for a long time and they refuse to see that it might only be a triangle.

    For future science, I like to think being able to harness the probabilistic nature of the universe to make the improbable happen will be the next true great advancement of science.

    Veevee on
  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    Dac wrote: »
    Roz wrote: »
    What's nice is that JWST has confirmed that at least one assumption of the Fermi paradox (that the earth is not special) seems to be incorrect. It does appear that our type of planet with vast quantities of water deposits, in the habitable zone, with a single moon orbiting a single yellow star is rare. It may simply be the case that there are very few planets even capable of birthing complex intelligent life to begin with and we just happen to be the first.

    We have somewhere around 5500 confirmed exoplanets, not all of which have been characterized.

    Estimates vary, but even at the low end there's thought to be billions of planets in our galaxy.

    It's a little soon to be claiming that the JWST has confirmed anything about the 'specialness' of Earth. Earth-like conditions can be very rare and one-in-10,000,000, but if we take a conservative six billion planets in the galaxy, that's still, like, 600 Earths.

    It's also important to be careful of the foibles of the anthropic principle. A moon is useful for stirring up water, but not the only source of motion for chemistry, for example.

    Also our current methods of detecting planets are biased against finding Earth-likes. They require either transit (easier with planets close to stars) or large masses.

  • HydropoloHydropolo Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Also 1% the speed of light still presents significant challenges for keeping inhabitants alive…. Keeping the ship intact from debris… and everything else.

    Especially if portable fusion isn’t terribly possible. Just the need to stop and pick up fuel in order to synthesize food/energy for to keep people alive/computers running would put a 1% light speed ship far below 1% light speed.

    The big takeaway should be that mass and bytes (or qbits) are several orders of magnitude apart in how hard they are to shlep about.
    No matter how hard it’s going to be to digitise human consciousness, the resultant reduction in mass means digitised humans (for example in Charlie Stross’ coke-can sized starship) will outpace generation ships or cryogenic arks.
    And given a few breakthroughs the digitised humans might launch before anyone can even really start building a meat-carrying starship.
    There’s lots of bumps in the road for uploading, for sure. But we’re getting better at digital stuff and quantum computing all the time, and the rocket equation isn’t giving freebies.
    Some things are just going to take time. You want to go find a near-Earth asteroid to anchor a space elevator or rotating skyhook? That’ll be a decade or two, while Moore’s law keeps being applied to AI (which, realistically, needs a lot more computing increases than just Moore’s law, but you get my point.
    Space is hard *and* slow.

    I might be misreading this, but even this is "Wrong". The idea of "digitized" humans being better able to transit interstellar space makes so many bogus assumptions it's not funny. If you are talking some kind of point to point transmission, as of today, you are still limited to speed of light, not to you are PROBABLY talking about something that needs to be lossless, but most of our lossless transmission protocols require 2 way traffic. Can you imagine a TCP ack sequence with a RTT of like 9 YEARS? That's assuming we can beamform tight enough to transfer that data appropriately, and... you'll still need to have sent a receiver and some kind of... stuff for the conciousness to exist and do things in.

    Assuming you are discussing sending a digitized copy of the person in storage or in an active computer state, we presently aren't even remotely close to know what kind of hardware you would need for that, so it's entirely possibly it's losing out to the "meatship". Even if it's not, it's still vulnerable to a lot of the same physics constraints.

  • hlprmnkyhlprmnky Registered User regular
    Hydropolo wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Also 1% the speed of light still presents significant challenges for keeping inhabitants alive…. Keeping the ship intact from debris… and everything else.

    Especially if portable fusion isn’t terribly possible. Just the need to stop and pick up fuel in order to synthesize food/energy for to keep people alive/computers running would put a 1% light speed ship far below 1% light speed.

    The big takeaway should be that mass and bytes (or qbits) are several orders of magnitude apart in how hard they are to shlep about.
    No matter how hard it’s going to be to digitise human consciousness, the resultant reduction in mass means digitised humans (for example in Charlie Stross’ coke-can sized starship) will outpace generation ships or cryogenic arks.
    And given a few breakthroughs the digitised humans might launch before anyone can even really start building a meat-carrying starship.
    There’s lots of bumps in the road for uploading, for sure. But we’re getting better at digital stuff and quantum computing all the time, and the rocket equation isn’t giving freebies.
    Some things are just going to take time. You want to go find a near-Earth asteroid to anchor a space elevator or rotating skyhook? That’ll be a decade or two, while Moore’s law keeps being applied to AI (which, realistically, needs a lot more computing increases than just Moore’s law, but you get my point.
    Space is hard *and* slow.

    I might be misreading this, but even this is "Wrong". The idea of "digitized" humans being better able to transit interstellar space makes so many bogus assumptions it's not funny. If you are talking some kind of point to point transmission, as of today, you are still limited to speed of light, not to you are PROBABLY talking about something that needs to be lossless, but most of our lossless transmission protocols require 2 way traffic. Can you imagine a TCP ack sequence with a RTT of like 9 YEARS? That's assuming we can beamform tight enough to transfer that data appropriately, and... you'll still need to have sent a receiver and some kind of... stuff for the conciousness to exist and do things in.

    Assuming you are discussing sending a digitized copy of the person in storage or in an active computer state, we presently aren't even remotely close to know what kind of hardware you would need for that, so it's entirely possibly it's losing out to the "meatship". Even if it's not, it's still vulnerable to a lot of the same physics constraints.

    But critically not all the same physics constraints, is the idea. Way less mass to accelerate/decelerate, no worries about sustained 30g burns if needed, no need to support all the various energy/chemistry cycles on which mammalian life depends, etc. The “brains on thumb drives in a Coke can” (to simplify to the point of mockery the idea Charles Stross presents in his writing) isn’t meant to be a difference in kind from a generation ship, just enough of a difference in degree that the generation ship no longer makes sense to do.

    _
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  • SiliconStewSiliconStew Registered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Dac wrote: »
    Roz wrote: »
    What's nice is that JWST has confirmed that at least one assumption of the Fermi paradox (that the earth is not special) seems to be incorrect. It does appear that our type of planet with vast quantities of water deposits, in the habitable zone, with a single moon orbiting a single yellow star is rare. It may simply be the case that there are very few planets even capable of birthing complex intelligent life to begin with and we just happen to be the first.

    We have somewhere around 5500 confirmed exoplanets, not all of which have been characterized.

    Estimates vary, but even at the low end there's thought to be billions of planets in our galaxy.

    It's a little soon to be claiming that the JWST has confirmed anything about the 'specialness' of Earth. Earth-like conditions can be very rare and one-in-10,000,000, but if we take a conservative six billion planets in the galaxy, that's still, like, 600 Earths.

    It's also important to be careful of the foibles of the anthropic principle. A moon is useful for stirring up water, but not the only source of motion for chemistry, for example.

    Also our current methods of detecting planets are biased against finding Earth-likes. They require either transit (easier with planets close to stars) or large masses.

    Transit detection also requires the plane of the exoplanet orbit be in line with the earth. That immediately excludes more than 95% of star systems.

    Just remember that half the people you meet are below average intelligence.
  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited August 2023
    I would propose that it may be the case that interstellar travel is such a difficult engineering challenge that all races hit singularly before getting to a point where it is feasible. So if we did get out there we would mostly just find Dyson spheres running WoW NeoClassic. The vast scale of space may make meaningful contact practically impossible. If I did the math right if you could manage 1% of the speed of light it would take 20 million years to go from one end of our galaxy to the other. And that is already speculative because the fastest we've managed so far is 0.05%. And there are all kinds of possible limiting factors: how much energy you can bring or apply, can you withstand an impact with even minor space dust at those speeds, and so on. That leaves signals. There's the tropes of aliens picking up our TV transmissions, but best I can tell SETI would not detect our own radio traffic. It would take a deliberate transmission as strong as we can make it, and narrowly targeted. So you are looking at sending that off to a solar system that looks like a good candidate and then waiting hundreds or thousands of years for a response at the earliest. If that is the limit of how civilizations can interact across interstellar distances I don't find it strange that we have not yet made such contact.

    And them the universe is expanding and huge parts of it we are literally unable to interact with at all because they are getting farther away faster than we can go.

    HamHamJ on
    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
  • SiliconStewSiliconStew Registered User regular
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    I would propose that it may be the case that interstellar travel is such a difficult engineering challenge that all races hit singularly before getting to a point where it is feasible. So if we did get out there we would mostly just find Dyson spheres running WoW NeoClassic. The vast scale of space may make meaningful contact practically impossible. If I did the math right if you could manage 1% of the speed of light it would take 20 million years to go from one end of our galaxy to the other. And that is already speculative because the fastest we've managed so far is 0.05%. And there are all kinds of possible limiting factors: how much energy you can bring or apply, can you withstand an impact with even minor space dust at those speeds, and so on. That leaves signals. There's the tropes of aliens picking up our TV transmissions, but best I can tell SETI would not detect our own radio traffic. It would take a deliberate transmission as strong as we can make it, and narrowly targeted. So you are looking at sending that off to a solar system that looks like a good candidate and then waiting hundreds or thousands of years for a response at the earliest. If that is the limit of how civilizations can interact across interstellar distances I don't find it strange that we have not yet made such contact.

    And them the universe is expanding and huge parts of it we are literally unable to interact with at all because they are getting farther away faster than we can go.

    One of the most powerful signals we put out was the Aricibo message and that would be technically detectible by a similarly capable radio telescope about 25000 light years away. But most terrestrial radio sources will degrade below the cosmic microwave background within a few 10's of light years. Air traffic control radar would be detectable about 10 light years away for example. There are only ten stars within that range of us. And as technology improves, the power of most of our radio signals is going down, not up, and look more and more like random noise to start with so the prospect gets worse with time unless the signal is deliberate. SETI actually focuses more on "unusual" radio bands that are more able to propagate further through interstellar space and are much more obvious that the source would be artificial.

    Just remember that half the people you meet are below average intelligence.
  • CornucopiistCornucopiist Registered User regular
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    I would propose that it may be the case that interstellar travel is such a difficult engineering challenge that all races hit singularly before getting to a point where it is feasible. So if we did get out there we would mostly just find Dyson spheres running WoW NeoClassic. The vast scale of space may make meaningful contact practically impossible. If I did the math right if you could manage 1% of the speed of light it would take 20 million years to go from one end of our galaxy to the other. And that is already speculative because the fastest we've managed so far is 0.05%. And there are all kinds of possible limiting factors: how much energy you can bring or apply, can you withstand an impact with even minor space dust at those speeds, and so on. That leaves signals. There's the tropes of aliens picking up our TV transmissions, but best I can tell SETI would not detect our own radio traffic. It would take a deliberate transmission as strong as we can make it, and narrowly targeted. So you are looking at sending that off to a solar system that looks like a good candidate and then waiting hundreds or thousands of years for a response at the earliest. If that is the limit of how civilizations can interact across interstellar distances I don't find it strange that we have not yet made such contact.

    And them the universe is expanding and huge parts of it we are literally unable to interact with at all because they are getting farther away faster than we can go.

    One of the most powerful signals we put out was the Aricibo message and that would be technically detectible by a similarly capable radio telescope about 25000 light years away. But most terrestrial radio sources will degrade below the cosmic microwave background within a few 10's of light years. Air traffic control radar would be detectable about 10 light years away for example. There are only ten stars within that range of us. And as technology improves, the power of most of our radio signals is going down, not up, and look more and more like random noise to start with so the prospect gets worse with time unless the signal is deliberate. SETI actually focuses more on "unusual" radio bands that are more able to propagate further through interstellar space and are much more obvious that the source would be artificial.

    This is where I should look up that one joke experiment with an optical disk hitched to a snail as a data transfer beating a network connection.

    It may seem creepy, but you might be able to generate minds based on very condensed data sets (diaries) expanded through procedural generation on top of one or several functional frameworks. Not actual people, but close enough.
    Need more people later on? Send more diaries. Text files are small but cover a lot of territory. (Swanwick had a character whose personality was overwritten with one based on Samuel Pepys diaries)

    On the other hand, generation ships tend to need lots of people because even one person’s life support systems tend to need many specialists to keep them going. You scale up until you have enough redundancy to keep the tech going + medical and psychological support and sociologists… it never ends!

  • That_GuyThat_Guy I don't wanna be that guy Registered User regular
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    I would propose that it may be the case that interstellar travel is such a difficult engineering challenge that all races hit singularly before getting to a point where it is feasible. So if we did get out there we would mostly just find Dyson spheres running WoW NeoClassic. The vast scale of space may make meaningful contact practically impossible. If I did the math right if you could manage 1% of the speed of light it would take 20 million years to go from one end of our galaxy to the other. And that is already speculative because the fastest we've managed so far is 0.05%. And there are all kinds of possible limiting factors: how much energy you can bring or apply, can you withstand an impact with even minor space dust at those speeds, and so on. That leaves signals. There's the tropes of aliens picking up our TV transmissions, but best I can tell SETI would not detect our own radio traffic. It would take a deliberate transmission as strong as we can make it, and narrowly targeted. So you are looking at sending that off to a solar system that looks like a good candidate and then waiting hundreds or thousands of years for a response at the earliest. If that is the limit of how civilizations can interact across interstellar distances I don't find it strange that we have not yet made such contact.

    And them the universe is expanding and huge parts of it we are literally unable to interact with at all because they are getting farther away faster than we can go.

    You don't really even need to go much further than a few hundred lightyears in any direction to effectively colonize the entire galaxy. The Sun is moving through the Milky Way at 230 km/s and only takes around 200 million years to orbit the ecliptic. That's only a single order of magnitude off from your estimate and requires significantly less investment. We can just wait for our solar system to swing by another interesting system and pop over for a spot of colonization or just a bit of exploration. Our solar system has made at least 20 trips around the entire Milky Way since life showed up.

    And that applies for other solar systems as well. Any civilization capable of existing on astronomical timescales shouldn't have much of a problem with a (comparatively) quick jump to the next system over. If our solar system looked interesting enough it's not inconceivable that they would leave a Von Neumann probe behind to keep an eye on things until the next time the 2 systems are close.

  • SiliconStewSiliconStew Registered User regular
    edited August 2023
    That_Guy wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    I would propose that it may be the case that interstellar travel is such a difficult engineering challenge that all races hit singularly before getting to a point where it is feasible. So if we did get out there we would mostly just find Dyson spheres running WoW NeoClassic. The vast scale of space may make meaningful contact practically impossible. If I did the math right if you could manage 1% of the speed of light it would take 20 million years to go from one end of our galaxy to the other. And that is already speculative because the fastest we've managed so far is 0.05%. And there are all kinds of possible limiting factors: how much energy you can bring or apply, can you withstand an impact with even minor space dust at those speeds, and so on. That leaves signals. There's the tropes of aliens picking up our TV transmissions, but best I can tell SETI would not detect our own radio traffic. It would take a deliberate transmission as strong as we can make it, and narrowly targeted. So you are looking at sending that off to a solar system that looks like a good candidate and then waiting hundreds or thousands of years for a response at the earliest. If that is the limit of how civilizations can interact across interstellar distances I don't find it strange that we have not yet made such contact.

    And them the universe is expanding and huge parts of it we are literally unable to interact with at all because they are getting farther away faster than we can go.

    You don't really even need to go much further than a few hundred lightyears in any direction to effectively colonize the entire galaxy. The Sun is moving through the Milky Way at 230 km/s and only takes around 200 million years to orbit the ecliptic. That's only a single order of magnitude off from your estimate and requires significantly less investment. We can just wait for our solar system to swing by another interesting system and pop over for a spot of colonization or just a bit of exploration. Our solar system has made at least 20 trips around the entire Milky Way since life showed up.

    And that applies for other solar systems as well. Any civilization capable of existing on astronomical timescales shouldn't have much of a problem with a (comparatively) quick jump to the next system over. If our solar system looked interesting enough it's not inconceivable that they would leave a Von Neumann probe behind to keep an eye on things until the next time the 2 systems are close.

    The galaxy isn't fixed in place while the solar system orbits it. While other stars are all moving on slightly different trajectories meaning the stars won't maintain their current positions relative to the sun over time, on average nearby stars are also orbiting the galaxy in the same direction and same speed as the sun.

    Alpha Centauri will be a little easier to reach in 30000 years as it passes by at 3 light years instead of it's current 4. Gliese 710 is currently 62 light years away but will get so close it will pass through the Oort cloud in 1.3 million years. But a star on the opposite side of the galaxy from the sun is still going to be on the opposite side of the galaxy from the sun in 125 million years because both are orbiting it.

    SiliconStew on
    Just remember that half the people you meet are below average intelligence.
  • That_GuyThat_Guy I don't wanna be that guy Registered User regular
    edited August 2023
    That_Guy wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    I would propose that it may be the case that interstellar travel is such a difficult engineering challenge that all races hit singularly before getting to a point where it is feasible. So if we did get out there we would mostly just find Dyson spheres running WoW NeoClassic. The vast scale of space may make meaningful contact practically impossible. If I did the math right if you could manage 1% of the speed of light it would take 20 million years to go from one end of our galaxy to the other. And that is already speculative because the fastest we've managed so far is 0.05%. And there are all kinds of possible limiting factors: how much energy you can bring or apply, can you withstand an impact with even minor space dust at those speeds, and so on. That leaves signals. There's the tropes of aliens picking up our TV transmissions, but best I can tell SETI would not detect our own radio traffic. It would take a deliberate transmission as strong as we can make it, and narrowly targeted. So you are looking at sending that off to a solar system that looks like a good candidate and then waiting hundreds or thousands of years for a response at the earliest. If that is the limit of how civilizations can interact across interstellar distances I don't find it strange that we have not yet made such contact.

    And them the universe is expanding and huge parts of it we are literally unable to interact with at all because they are getting farther away faster than we can go.

    You don't really even need to go much further than a few hundred lightyears in any direction to effectively colonize the entire galaxy. The Sun is moving through the Milky Way at 230 km/s and only takes around 200 million years to orbit the ecliptic. That's only a single order of magnitude off from your estimate and requires significantly less investment. We can just wait for our solar system to swing by another interesting system and pop over for a spot of colonization or just a bit of exploration. Our solar system has made at least 20 trips around the entire Milky Way since life showed up.

    And that applies for other solar systems as well. Any civilization capable of existing on astronomical timescales shouldn't have much of a problem with a (comparatively) quick jump to the next system over. If our solar system looked interesting enough it's not inconceivable that they would leave a Von Neumann probe behind to keep an eye on things until the next time the 2 systems are close.

    The galaxy isn't fixed in place while the solar system orbits it. While other stars are all moving on slightly different trajectories meaning the stars won't maintain their current positions relative to the sun over time, on average nearby stars are also orbiting the galaxy in the same direction and same speed as the sun.

    Alpha Centauri will be a little easier to reach in 30000 years as it passes by at 3 light years instead of it's current 4. Gliese 710 is currently 62 light years away but will get so close it will pass through the Oort cloud in 1.3 million years. But a star on the opposite side of the galaxy from the sun is still going to be on the opposite side of the galaxy from the sun in 125 million years because both are orbiting it.

    All the stars do indeed orbit at slightly different velocities so it's not inconceivable that a star system on the other side of the galaxy would eventually wander close enough. Plus, once you have probes in more than 1 system, it becomes exponentially easier to spread to other systems as they swing by. There's a great video on Youtube that covers the subject in more detail than I care to get into here.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpXwyDWDww8

    That_Guy on
  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    Something that I think is not getting enough consideration is the difficulty of creating something that can resist entropy for thousands or hundreds of thousands of years on the depths of space. Electronics wear down. Fuel gets used up. You can posit a Von Neumann probe capable of self-repair but a self-repair system is itself a system that can break. Redundancy can improve your odds against random accidents sure. But I think an even bigger challenge is that you will be essentially a closed system for a very long time. Too far from any star to get any new energy, no access to new matter. Whatever energy you are going to need to keep your systems going and fix them when they break you need to bring with you. Creating that first probe may simply be too difficult for anyone to bother with.

    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
  • RT800RT800 Registered User regular
    edited August 2023
    I've watched enough Black Mirror to be thoroughly horrified at the idea of ever "digitizing my conscience".

    Where there is a digital heaven, there must surely be a digital hell. I'd much prefer the certainty of oblivion.

    RT800 on
  • CalicaCalica Registered User regular
    RT800 wrote: »
    I've watched enough Black Mirror to be thoroughly horrified at the idea of ever "digitizing my conscience".

    Where there is a digital heaven, there must surely be a digital hell. I'd much prefer the certainty of oblivion.

    I remember a short story where people were using digitized personalities as disposable labor to do mundane tasks. They'd boot up an instance, tell it whatever they'd figured out (by trial and error) would make it most cooperative (e.g., "hi, it's 2344, we're testing the digitzer system, can you please do some tasks so we can see how well it worked?"), and then set it loose converting file formats or something. And when the personality started to get suspicious and then disillusioned and less productive, they'd shut it down, spin up another copy, and start fresh.

  • edited August 2023
    This content has been removed.

  • Raiden333Raiden333 Registered User regular
    Calica wrote: »
    RT800 wrote: »
    I've watched enough Black Mirror to be thoroughly horrified at the idea of ever "digitizing my conscience".

    Where there is a digital heaven, there must surely be a digital hell. I'd much prefer the certainty of oblivion.

    I remember a short story where people were using digitized personalities as disposable labor to do mundane tasks. They'd boot up an instance, tell it whatever they'd figured out (by trial and error) would make it most cooperative (e.g., "hi, it's 2344, we're testing the digitzer system, can you please do some tasks so we can see how well it worked?"), and then set it loose converting file formats or something. And when the personality started to get suspicious and then disillusioned and less productive, they'd shut it down, spin up another copy, and start fresh.

    https://qntm.org/mmacevedo

    One of the scariest short fictions I've ever read

  • SoggybiscuitSoggybiscuit Tandem Electrostatic Accelerator Registered User regular
    RT800 wrote: »
    I've watched enough Black Mirror to be thoroughly horrified at the idea of ever "digitizing my conscience".

    Where there is a digital heaven, there must surely be a digital hell. I'd much prefer the certainty of oblivion.

    Spoiler for Surface Detail (Culure series)
    That’s like one of the main plot points, how some species make digital hells to torture “bad” citizens after death. Obviously more nuanced than that but I’m not going to write a thesis about it here.

    Steam - Synthetic Violence | XBOX Live - Cannonfuse | PSN - CastleBravo | Twitch - SoggybiscuitPA
  • CalicaCalica Registered User regular
    Raiden333 wrote: »
    Calica wrote: »
    RT800 wrote: »
    I've watched enough Black Mirror to be thoroughly horrified at the idea of ever "digitizing my conscience".

    Where there is a digital heaven, there must surely be a digital hell. I'd much prefer the certainty of oblivion.

    I remember a short story where people were using digitized personalities as disposable labor to do mundane tasks. They'd boot up an instance, tell it whatever they'd figured out (by trial and error) would make it most cooperative (e.g., "hi, it's 2344, we're testing the digitzer system, can you please do some tasks so we can see how well it worked?"), and then set it loose converting file formats or something. And when the personality started to get suspicious and then disillusioned and less productive, they'd shut it down, spin up another copy, and start fresh.

    https://qntm.org/mmacevedo

    One of the scariest short fictions I've ever read

    @Soggybiscuit that's the one, thanks! I couldn't remember any names to google it by.

  • HydropoloHydropolo Registered User regular
    Raiden333 wrote: »
    Calica wrote: »
    RT800 wrote: »
    I've watched enough Black Mirror to be thoroughly horrified at the idea of ever "digitizing my conscience".

    Where there is a digital heaven, there must surely be a digital hell. I'd much prefer the certainty of oblivion.

    I remember a short story where people were using digitized personalities as disposable labor to do mundane tasks. They'd boot up an instance, tell it whatever they'd figured out (by trial and error) would make it most cooperative (e.g., "hi, it's 2344, we're testing the digitzer system, can you please do some tasks so we can see how well it worked?"), and then set it loose converting file formats or something. And when the personality started to get suspicious and then disillusioned and less productive, they'd shut it down, spin up another copy, and start fresh.

    https://qntm.org/mmacevedo

    One of the scariest short fictions I've ever read

    Or maybe it's not!?!?!??!

  • GundiGundi Serious Bismuth Registered User regular
    edited August 2023
    At the most basic level you don't need to send humans, or human fascilimes, across interstellar space to explore for space-faring aliens. Technically you don't even need a probe that can collect or send data. You could send things through the void on a trajectory towards likely habitable worlds that is simply encoded on a physical medium. If you can figure out a way to represent which specific star we're orbiting (admittedly a very complicated task since we're not stationary, maybe use data about the sun's orbital plane+basic physical characteristics) and then make a transmitter that can make an extremely basic unnatural signal that could be detected inside a star system, you could send 'parcels' hoping someone might pick them up and decide to send a 'reply.'

    Gundi on
  • KamarKamar Registered User regular
    I want to live until I get too bored to live or until the stars go out, I'll take my chances with eons of digital torture.

    As an aside, it's kind of interesting how many science fiction settings seem to ignore the existence of science fiction, like no one in the universe ever thought about these concepts until they were confronted with them directly in reality.

    Zombie fiction does the same thing.

  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    Kamar wrote: »
    I want to live until I get too bored to live or until the stars go out, I'll take my chances with eons of digital torture.

    As an aside, it's kind of interesting how many science fiction settings seem to ignore the existence of science fiction, like no one in the universe ever thought about these concepts until they were confronted with them directly in reality.

    Zombie fiction does the same thing.

    Lena is a metaphor for how we treat people right now, not an attempt at creating a realistic world. A lot of SF is the same way.

    As far as zombie fiction goes if you want self aware try Feed, where George Romero is openly credited with saving the world.

  • hlprmnkyhlprmnky Registered User regular
    Gundi wrote: »
    At the most basic level you don't need to send humans, or human fascilimes, across interstellar space to explore for space-faring aliens. Technically you don't even need a probe that can collect or send data. You could send things through the void on a trajectory towards likely habitable worlds that is simply encoded on a physical medium. If you can figure out a way to represent which specific star we're orbiting (admittedly a very complicated task since we're not stationary, maybe use data about the sun's orbital plane+basic physical characteristics) and then make a transmitter that can make an extremely basic unnatural signal that could be detected inside a star system, you could send 'parcels' hoping someone might pick them up and decide to send a 'reply.'

    We do have a fairly reliable way to triangulate our star’s position in the galaxy by giving distances and directions to several pulsars of known frequency. We put such a map on the Voyager golden discs next to our nude selfie.

    Of course, there’s always the risk that the “reply” takes the form of making our star go nova or whatever similar total biome kill response your more zero-sum-oriented civilizations might choose to deploy instead of building a transmitter to say hello, but fortunately that’s a problem for far future folks and not us.

    _
    Your Ad Here! Reasonable Rates!
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  • dlinfinitidlinfiniti Registered User regular
    and then they don't understand wtf we're sending or why and respond with this
    _130696449_questionmark.jpg

    AAAAA!!! PLAAAYGUUU!!!!
  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    That MMAcevedo story is similar to an older one about people who are all working their “first few weeks” at a call center for infinity. Maximum level of work interest, minimum level of rebellious impulses.

    I think in that one they eventually figured out how to unionize.

    We're all in this together
  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    hlprmnky wrote: »
    Gundi wrote: »
    At the most basic level you don't need to send humans, or human fascilimes, across interstellar space to explore for space-faring aliens. Technically you don't even need a probe that can collect or send data. You could send things through the void on a trajectory towards likely habitable worlds that is simply encoded on a physical medium. If you can figure out a way to represent which specific star we're orbiting (admittedly a very complicated task since we're not stationary, maybe use data about the sun's orbital plane+basic physical characteristics) and then make a transmitter that can make an extremely basic unnatural signal that could be detected inside a star system, you could send 'parcels' hoping someone might pick them up and decide to send a 'reply.'

    We do have a fairly reliable way to triangulate our star’s position in the galaxy by giving distances and directions to several pulsars of known frequency. We put such a map on the Voyager golden discs next to our nude selfie.

    Of course, there’s always the risk that the “reply” takes the form of making our star go nova or whatever similar total biome kill response your more zero-sum-oriented civilizations might choose to deploy instead of building a transmitter to say hello, but fortunately that’s a problem for far future folks and not us.

    I live in hope that we'll discover some new transmission medium some day, and the moment we build a receiver we'll just discover that that's where galactic internet actually runs, along with the prime number repeater for new species to find.

    Hexapodia is the key insight.

  • GiantGeek2020GiantGeek2020 Registered User regular
    hlprmnky wrote: »
    Gundi wrote: »
    At the most basic level you don't need to send humans, or human fascilimes, across interstellar space to explore for space-faring aliens. Technically you don't even need a probe that can collect or send data. You could send things through the void on a trajectory towards likely habitable worlds that is simply encoded on a physical medium. If you can figure out a way to represent which specific star we're orbiting (admittedly a very complicated task since we're not stationary, maybe use data about the sun's orbital plane+basic physical characteristics) and then make a transmitter that can make an extremely basic unnatural signal that could be detected inside a star system, you could send 'parcels' hoping someone might pick them up and decide to send a 'reply.'

    We do have a fairly reliable way to triangulate our star’s position in the galaxy by giving distances and directions to several pulsars of known frequency. We put such a map on the Voyager golden discs next to our nude selfie.

    Of course, there’s always the risk that the “reply” takes the form of making our star go nova or whatever similar total biome kill response your more zero-sum-oriented civilizations might choose to deploy instead of building a transmitter to say hello, but fortunately that’s a problem for far future folks and not us.

    I live in hope that we'll discover some new transmission medium some day, and the moment we build a receiver we'll just discover that that's where galactic internet actually runs, along with the prime number repeater for new species to find.

    The real problem will be that most of the galactic internet is porn. Also that our anti-virus isn't up to snuff.

  • yossarian_livesyossarian_lives Registered User regular
    Mexico’s congress held a UAP hearing and displayed alien bodies. Reddit is going nuts with this but apparently it’s a hoax that was debunked a while ago. It would seem the U.S doesn’t have a monopoly on gullible and embarrassing government officials.

    https://news.yahoo.com/alien-corpses-shown-congress-ufo-092014024.html

    Here’s a video debunking the alien mummies.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DmDHF6jN9A

    "I see everything twice!"


  • GrisloGrislo Registered User regular
    The one comment I saw on it was basically "known UFO con artist unveils carved & dried lunch meat", which seems pretty accurate.

    This post was sponsored by Tom Cruise.
  • ChallChall Registered User regular
    edited September 2023
    Grislo wrote: »
    The one comment I saw on it was basically "known UFO con artist unveils carved & dried lunch meat", which seems pretty accurate.

    Someone made that mummy jerky from Futurama?

    Chall on
  • GrisloGrislo Registered User regular
    It was presented as having "30% unknown DNA" which, like, my local kebab place has that beat, easily.

    This post was sponsored by Tom Cruise.
  • GilgaronGilgaron Registered User regular
    Yeah the DNA thing was funny, like if it had DNA at all, and especially with codons the same as ours, our first assumption is a terrestrial species.

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  • Gabriel_PittGabriel_Pitt Stepped in it Registered User regular
    Grislo wrote: »
    It was presented as having "30% unknown DNA" which, like, my local kebab place has that beat, easily.
    It's like that immediately debunked clickbait 'study' 'Subway Tuna Fish salad contains 0% tuna DNA.' Yeah, because cooking does a pretty good job of wrecking DNA, and IIRC the testing type they were using was pretty ill-suited to what they were trying to test anyways. "30%' unknown means at best 30% destroyed and unreadable, and that's the most gracious possible interpretation of that bullshit.

    Same way when 'unknown substances' pop up. There's no single 'identify this!' test that can be used on everything all the time.

  • HydropoloHydropolo Registered User regular
    Grislo wrote: »
    It was presented as having "30% unknown DNA" which, like, my local kebab place has that beat, easily.
    It's like that immediately debunked clickbait 'study' 'Subway Tuna Fish salad contains 0% tuna DNA.' Yeah, because cooking does a pretty good job of wrecking DNA, and IIRC the testing type they were using was pretty ill-suited to what they were trying to test anyways. "30%' unknown means at best 30% destroyed and unreadable, and that's the most gracious possible interpretation of that bullshit.

    Same way when 'unknown substances' pop up. There's no single 'identify this!' test that can be used on everything all the time.

    Please, I've seen <insert cop show or science fiction movie here>, and you can just get a DNA sample from even damn near vaporized tissue and then you just look at the spirals and see if they match.

  • Gabriel_PittGabriel_Pitt Stepped in it Registered User regular
    I was specifically thinking about the DNA analyzer from The Relic, which when fed a sample of mutant monster stuff was able to tell every type of animal the monster was made of, as well as the -specific- identify of the person who mutated into it. At least he'd been museum staff, so maybe they were all in there as part of the testing database, but c'mon...

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