hahahahahahahahahaha the nba def doesn’t want the knicks to win tho.
absolutely insane.
It's okay! Using the same source that you used to prove the anti-76ers conspiracy (the last two minute report), we can confirm that the illegal screen call was correct. Nothing to see here!
i mean, they reviewed it. there's absolutely no universe where the nba comes out and says the results from a challenge were wrong.
if you think the end of that game was fairly officiated, then there's just really no helping you. it wasn't as bad as kings lakers game 6 but the series is still young.
hahahahahahahahahaha the nba def doesn’t want the knicks to win tho.
absolutely insane.
It's okay! Using the same source that you used to prove the anti-76ers conspiracy (the last two minute report), we can confirm that the illegal screen call was correct. Nothing to see here!
i mean, they reviewed it. there's absolutely no universe where the nba comes out and says the results from a challenge were wrong.
if you think the end of that game was fairly officiated, then there's just really no helping you. it wasn't as bad as kings lakers game 6 but the series is still young.
Lol there's no helping you when you will cite the L2M when it agrees with you then completely dismiss it or ignore it when it doesn't. You're walking confirmation bias sports fan. Incontrovertible evidence when it supports your argument, part of Adam Silver's master plan subversion when it does not.
I actually think the screen call was a terrible call. But using it as a callback to your "omg NBA rigged for the Knicks" (which is at least a slight improvement over against the 76ers exclusively, I'll admit) thing is clown shoes.
yea i'm ignoring you. you just purposely distort my argument to fit your narrative. have fun friend.
Your argument is that the NBA (from directive of Adam Silver) leans on the refs to rig games so that certain teams will win and others will lose, right? Additionally, youve identified the Knicks as a team chosen to win, and the 76ers as a team chosen to lose, right? Youve used the cumulative L2M incorrect calls report to support that, and the results and events of some of the playoff games, correct? Is there anything missing or distorted in that?
The main point of contention with it, for me, is your absolute certainty that these things are always happening, and an inability to consider any other possibility. For example, there were a bunch of bad calls last night, most favored the Knicks to my eyes, but not all. Why did the refs call oob off Brunson, costing the Knicks a TO to review, or unjustly losing them the ball if they didnt? How does that help them win? How does it fit into this theory?
Is there any possibility reffing is hard, that sometimes calls are wrong, and sometimes that INCIDENTALLY goes in the favor of one team? Like, in the game 2(?) Situation, i mentioned that to my eyes, most of the reffing went in the 76ers favor. This wasnt to say my interpretation of the reffing was right and yours is wrong, but to provide evidence that your assertion of gamelong bias from the refs was ghastly and uncontrovertibly against the 76ers. Well, it is controvertible, because i thought something very different without any strong reason to prefer one outcome or ther other (in fact, i was mildly rooting for the Sixers).
Like, I am willing to entertain the ref conspiracy directed by the NBA as a possibility. I was rooting for the Kings in 2002, i half believed it then. I think its low, and wouldnt come into play often, but i can see a possibility there. Its your utter certainty, and how everything that supports your argument is further proof, and anything that doesnt goes unaddressed (Fiatl's L2M point) that leads to people (or at least me) disagreeing with you strongly on this.
But also, i dont really care, you can think that if you want. We all have opinions that seem deranged to others (like, some people here think Steph Curry is cool. Can you imagine?)
the L2M report is always used as a tool to manufacture consent for the nba. it is functionally useless. i only used it for game 2 as people spent an entire day going "it wasn't a foul haha you're an idiot who doesn't know the rules" when it's just two blatantly obvious fouls and a missed timeout. usually they try to get wishy washy and generate some ticky tack stuff so both sides have stuff to complain about in the L2M, like how they point out a defensive 3 seconds a minute before the illegal screen.
there is absolutely, 100% zero doubt in my mind that the nba has been and will continue to lean on games to get outcomes that result in them making more money. obviously they aren't determining who wins like it's the WWE, but they will lean on things to benefit them and their pocketbooks, because that's all they care about. this is a tv contract year and they need these playoffs to be huge to cause there to be a bidding war between espn, nbc, and tnt for the rights to the a and b packages.
we live in a fundamentally corrupt society top to bottom, why on earth would you think 30 billionaires wouldn't conspire to increase their revenue and franchise value. they literally had an entire scandal about it and everyone just shrugged their shoulders, you'd be stupid to stop at that point.
david stern once said he knew where the bodies were buried, because he buried them.
the L2M report is always used as a tool to manufacture consent for the nba. it is functionally useless. i only used it for game 2 as people spent an entire day going "it wasn't a foul haha you're an idiot who doesn't know the rules" when it's just two blatantly obvious fouls and a missed timeout. usually they try to get wishy washy and generate some ticky tack stuff so both sides have stuff to complain about in the L2M, like how they point out a defensive 3 seconds a minute before the illegal screen.
there is absolutely, 100% zero doubt in my mind that the nba has been and will continue to lean on games to get outcomes that result in them making more money. obviously they aren't determining who wins like it's the WWE, but they will lean on things to benefit them and their pocketbooks, because that's all they care about. this is a tv contract year and they need these playoffs to be huge to cause there to be a bidding war between espn, nbc, and tnt for the rights to the a and b packages.
we live in a fundamentally corrupt society top to bottom, why on earth would you think 30 billionaires wouldn't conspire to increase their revenue and franchise value. they literally had an entire scandal about it and everyone just shrugged their shoulders, you'd be stupid to stop at that point.
david stern once said he knew where the bodies were buried, because he buried them.
they really messed up in 2008-2009 then because everyone was expecting a Kobe vs. Lebron Finals, but instead got Lakers vs. Magic, in which the Lakers absolutely dominated. Stern was still running the ship back then too.
3ds: 4983-4935-4575
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ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
Cavs missing Allen real bad in this game. They wouldn't be winning or anything, but there are a lot of rebounds getting away that normally wouldn't.
the L2M report is always used as a tool to manufacture consent for the nba. it is functionally useless. i only used it for game 2 as people spent an entire day going "it wasn't a foul haha you're an idiot who doesn't know the rules" when it's just two blatantly obvious fouls and a missed timeout. usually they try to get wishy washy and generate some ticky tack stuff so both sides have stuff to complain about in the L2M, like how they point out a defensive 3 seconds a minute before the illegal screen.
there is absolutely, 100% zero doubt in my mind that the nba has been and will continue to lean on games to get outcomes that result in them making more money. obviously they aren't determining who wins like it's the WWE, but they will lean on things to benefit them and their pocketbooks, because that's all they care about. this is a tv contract year and they need these playoffs to be huge to cause there to be a bidding war between espn, nbc, and tnt for the rights to the a and b packages.
we live in a fundamentally corrupt society top to bottom, why on earth would you think 30 billionaires wouldn't conspire to increase their revenue and franchise value. they literally had an entire scandal about it and everyone just shrugged their shoulders, you'd be stupid to stop at that point.
david stern once said he knew where the bodies were buried, because he buried them.
Sure, yeah, im of course familiar with the general idea. In your conception of it, who is in on it? Adam Silver and some high execs, presumably, right? Refs, obvs. Is it some or all? Are the owners in on it? Is the 76ers owner laughing all the way to bank right now? What about team execs, like GMs? Presumably not coaches and players. Are broadcasters, or broadcasting execs?
This isnt me trying to poke holes or mocking, just wondering what the extent of it is, in your mind.
Silver is so busy rigging the East that he can't spare the time to suspend Murray. He let the Wolves, Nuggets, Thunder, and Mavs sneak into the Western semifinals! Entire state of California? Pshhh, ain't got time for that.
This postseason was a good synopsis of the two Embiids.
He gutted it out through injury, and I respect that. He had some great games in there too!
He also has a history of putting his teammates on blast when losing in the playoffs, no showing in important games (Simmons was horrible against the Hawks but Embiid had some terrible games in there too that get ignored because of how ridiculous Simmons played towards the end), skipping big matchups in the regular season (against Jokic to close out last season), and whining about officiating while getting a very soft whistle himself. Even the stuff last year and prior where he spent so much time sulking about not being MVP yet in his press conferences.
He loses his composure easily, as seen with his dirty plays against the Knicks to close out the series. And I'm sorry, no matter how good you can be on the court, when you end games sulking like he did against the Knicks in game 2, I'm just not about it. I would be so upset if the best player on my team just hung his head and whined about being robbed by the officials in a close game like that instead of focusing on the mistakes he made and trying to improve. I don't care how bad/rigged the officiating is or isn't, it's just a terrible look as the leader of a team at any level of sport.
I get that we're on opposite ends on this one! But if I look at the guy's entire postseason career, the heart just isn't there despite some great moments. This post probably sounds like I think he's the worst player ever, he's not! He's incredibly good, but the intangibles are questionable at best when you look at his entire career on the balance.
Fiatil on
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ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
I give Embiid a pass on Simmons as he has proven to be a lockerroom cancer that apparently hates basketball but no enough to stop cashing his checks so he can still attend the MET Gala dressed as The Clock King as inspired by LL Bean.
Oh yeah if it were just the Simmons thing I would give him a pass too. I thought that was hilarious. But when it's one line in a body of work, it's not a great look over all.
He had a similar line about Harden after their first series loss together (not last year). Everyone hates Harden too, so Embiid often gets a pass. It just adds up for me!
Fiatil on
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ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
Embiid's prime has been plagued by the likes of Ben Simmons, post-Houston Harden, and Doc Rivers. It should surprise no one that he's getting crabby.
Kind of glad to see that the Wolves/Nuggets aren't playing today. I prefer that Knicks-Pacers and Wolves-Nuggets are on different days, since those are the two series I'm more interested in. I prefer to have 1 good series, 1 bad series on each day, rather than 2 good, 2 bad.
RingoHe/Hima distinct lack of substanceRegistered Userregular
Embiid's not a leader, but it doesn't mean he lacks heart. Dude played while suffering from Bell's palsy ffs. Would it be preferable if Embiid was a leader who motivated his team and stayed focused on projecting positive body language? Probably! But that's not his deal, and the dude has been dealt setbacks outside of his control every single year of his career, so it's understandable if he's more frustrated and less positive when the bottom falls out, again.
Also the 76ers haven't put a leader on that court since Danny Green in 2021, but they have had a plethora of headcases! Honestly their best hope right now is that Maxey can grow into being the leader of the team
Yeah, i cosign the "Embiid, plenty of heart, not a great leader (lately)" theory. I think he shows plenty of heart.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Embiid is Demarcus Cousins with a higher temper threshold. Once he cracks, they're very similar.
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RingoHe/Hima distinct lack of substanceRegistered Userregular
Honestly my opinion of Embiid has only grown over the last 3 years. When Simmons was there I thought both Simmons and Embiid were headcases. Since then I think Embiid has shown that he is not
Yeah ultimately I'm talking about heart in the sports context, and when you're trying to go down as an all time great that includes leadership to me, and being able to elevate a team to a certain level of success. It's basically just shorthand for "the results don't quite match the sum of the parts", or "intangibles" if you prefer.
Most of my criticism predates the Bell's Palsy manifesting/being diagnosed, and I don't mean to criticize him for that at all. I think there's a volume of work that predates that and his general pouting about basketball and sometimes coming off as a poor leader stuff definitely does. Like we've had essentially this same discussion about Kevin Durant, and while they're not exact mirrors at all, the parallels are there.
At some point he has to shake being the only MVP not to make it past the second round in his career, and losing in the first round to a not incredibly talented team (in the context of playoff teams) that's plagued with injuries isn't righting the ship for me. He's had some weird teammates but he's far from like, the most talented player dealing with the worst rosters of all time or anything like that. Plenty of players have done more with less -- his skill level puts him in a place to compete with really elite company. I'm judging him on that scale and finding the results to ultimately be a bit lacking. Doing big things in big moments (which in the NBA is "getting deeper in the playoffs and dominating in those series") is what will let him shed that label, and time will tell if he can.
Fiatil on
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RingoHe/Hima distinct lack of substanceRegistered Userregular
Eh, superstar athlete and unflappable team leader is a pretty rare combination. I ain't gonna fault someone for not being both. Superstar athlete and headcase is far more common and even then I only think it detracts when the headcase part is clearly sabotaging the results on the court.
Embiid's fine in my book and the 76ers' woes are directly related to the complete lack of production from the team when Embiid isn't on the court
On the macro level, Embiid does well in the playoffs. Like if you aggregate his stats, yep, looks pretty good.
In American sports, aggregate stats in the playoffs get you jack. If you're +40 in one game and win and -50 the next game and lose, you just went 1-1. If you're +3 in one game and your team loses and you're +2 in the next game and your team loses, you just went 0-2. Congrats yeah you were a net positive in the latter, and a net negative in the former. But your team needed you to be more than "good low variance" to win one of those games.
In 2021, the #1 seed Philadelphia 76ers lost in 7 games to the #5 seed Atlanta Hawks in the semi-finals. Everyone remembers Simmons coming up small in game 7 -- it was horrendous, and all criticism of him is deserved.
In game 4 of that series, Joel Embiid shot 4-20 in a game they lost by three points.
How is that series loss not Joel Embiid's fault on some level? A series is not just game 7. It's not just the last two minutes. They were playing a less talented team, and Joel Embiid choked hard in game 4. If they won game 4, they probably win the series (it went to 7 games). If they win that series, hey congrats, he's now made the conference finals for the first and only time. All he had to do was not have a historically bad shooting performance. But instead, he had a historically bad shooting performance. I don't understand how that all gets compartmentalized to just Ben Simmons's mistakes, which were abundant but not the sole reason they lost that series. To reiterate -- this is not me saying it's only Embiid's fault. No it's definitely Doc Rivers's fault and Ben Simmons's fault and other people too! But it seems like it's also Embiid's fault, as the best player on the team who played terribly in a key playoff game.
Yeah ultimately I'm talking about heart in the sports context, and when you're trying to go down as an all time great that includes leadership to me, and being able to elevate a team to a certain level of success.
Most of my criticism predates the Bell's Palsy manifesting/being diagnosed, and I don't mean to criticize him for that at all. I think there's a volume of work that predates that and his general pouting about basketball and sometimes coming off as a poor leader stuff definitely does. Like we've had essentially this same discussion about Kevin Durant, and while they're not exact mirrors at all, the parallels are there.
At some point he has to shake being the only MVP not to make it past the second round in his career, and losing in the first round to a not incredibly talented team (in the context of playoff teams) that's plagued with injuries isn't righting the ship for me. He's had some weird teammates but he's far from like, the most talented player dealing with the worst rosters of all time or anything like that. Plenty of players have done more with less -- his skill level puts him in a place to compete with really elite company. I'm judging him on that scale and finding the results to ultimately be a bit lacking. Doing big things in big moments (which in the NBA is "getting deeper in the playoffs and dominating in those series") is what will let him shed that label, and time will tell if he can.
I mean, the results are hard to argue with, but i put it down to luck more than lack of heart, per se. Luck in the sense of, always being injured through often flukey means (illnesses, broken faces, etc.). Of course, we always want to put the singular label on a guy (good heart/bad heart, most Hart), but obviously its never like that. In this series, Joel gutted it out through injuries, fatigue, illness, criticism, and did it while pouting and sometimes seeming disengaged. Does he have great heart for the load he carried? Or bad heart because he seemed disappointed/defeated at points?
Getting more philosophical here, we often like to think of the outcome of a players career as a direct measurement of who they were as a player, but we also know that just isn't the case. How good of a career a player has, and how good of a player they were, certainly have a correlation, but its not 1:1. But more and more (especially with RINGZ), we act like they are. That's a huge part, I think, of why players get more control freaky about the roster (LeGM, Giannis), or constantly demand trades (KD, Harden, etc.).
But there can be a wide gap between how good of a career a player has, and how good of a player they were, and I think Embiid is on pace to have one of the widest gaps (to the detriment of the career) of players that we'll see. I mean, he does at least have an MVP, which IMO is a huge accomplishment that has somehow been devalued over time (again, RINGZ), but so many dissapointing playoff results. I agree with Fiatil that's not like he has been tasked with carrying a succession of tragic rosters. Like, goddam, Portland Dame would have killed to have a player as good as Harden, Maxey, Butler, or Simmons on his team. Shit, he'd have loved to have a Tobias fucking Harris. And he actually made it farther than Embiid in a tougher conference (though, not actually any closer to a title, I would argue). Like, if you plot out the the reasonable high end and low end outcomes for a Joel Embiid playoff team before the playoffs, his team hits near the bottom every single time. At some point, that has to matter, right?
So, is Embiid a tremendous talent and incredible basketball player? Yes. Has he had a pretty disappointing playoff career? Yes. Has he contributed to the teams high expectations? Yes. Has he contributed to them underperforming those expectations? Yes. Has he show incredible toughness and grit playing through a bunch of injuries? Yes. Has he seemed to sometimes sulk, deflect responsibility, or disengage from the game when its not going his way? Yes. Has he had bad luck leading to some disappointing outcomes? Yes. Has he had injuries due to his body and style of play that can be labelled as "injury prone"? Yes. Has he had amazing playoff games where he has carried his team? Yes. Has he had terrible playoff games where he probably cause his team to lose? Yes.
All of these things about him seem to be true. I wouldn't sum it up as "no heart", but I also wouldn't sum it up as "great player, bad teammates, bad luck" either.
As is often the case, this started off with a smarmy offhand comment that had a core of truth (in my mind) to it.
Nah he doesn't have literally 0 heart. I was being hyperbolic as the description I used probably only applies to Ben Simmons. But I do think he shares the blame for the 76ers lack of playoff success and often gets a pass because of stuff like the BIG HEADLINE of Simmons completely choking.
If Embiid is a 10/10 on the skills level I'm giving him like a 6/10 on heart/intangibles. I just can't go as far on the "how great he would be if he were never injured" as some people here have, when there are questions about his performance in the biggest moments that aren't tied directly to injuries. All it takes is one season of him fully healthy and rocking to reverse the narrative. He's getting older, but it can happen! I need to see him just dominate some later round playoff series before I start pondering how high he would be on the all time greats list if he were healthy more often.
Poor Ernien so embarrassed about Shaqs inability to just be gracious. Imo, if you cant hold back your opinions about who is winning the award, you shouldnt be the one presenting it.
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RingoHe/Hima distinct lack of substanceRegistered Userregular
Denver is doomed, Shai should be thrilled. Over the last 30 years the MVP's team has won the Championship 8 times
embiid derangement syndrome is so real, that anyone could accuse a man who is constantly horribly injured in the playoffs and could just sit and have nothing happen like butler or giannis but still plays anyway and leaves it all on the line of having no heart.
like yes, hes always hurt and that is certainly a knock against him from a purely basketball perspective. but to say he has no heart and doesn’t try his hardest to win is purely divorced from reality.
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i mean, they reviewed it. there's absolutely no universe where the nba comes out and says the results from a challenge were wrong.
if you think the end of that game was fairly officiated, then there's just really no helping you. it wasn't as bad as kings lakers game 6 but the series is still young.
Lol there's no helping you when you will cite the L2M when it agrees with you then completely dismiss it or ignore it when it doesn't. You're walking confirmation bias sports fan. Incontrovertible evidence when it supports your argument, part of Adam Silver's master plan subversion when it does not.
I actually think the screen call was a terrible call. But using it as a callback to your "omg NBA rigged for the Knicks" (which is at least a slight improvement over against the 76ers exclusively, I'll admit) thing is clown shoes.
Your argument is that the NBA (from directive of Adam Silver) leans on the refs to rig games so that certain teams will win and others will lose, right? Additionally, youve identified the Knicks as a team chosen to win, and the 76ers as a team chosen to lose, right? Youve used the cumulative L2M incorrect calls report to support that, and the results and events of some of the playoff games, correct? Is there anything missing or distorted in that?
The main point of contention with it, for me, is your absolute certainty that these things are always happening, and an inability to consider any other possibility. For example, there were a bunch of bad calls last night, most favored the Knicks to my eyes, but not all. Why did the refs call oob off Brunson, costing the Knicks a TO to review, or unjustly losing them the ball if they didnt? How does that help them win? How does it fit into this theory?
Is there any possibility reffing is hard, that sometimes calls are wrong, and sometimes that INCIDENTALLY goes in the favor of one team? Like, in the game 2(?) Situation, i mentioned that to my eyes, most of the reffing went in the 76ers favor. This wasnt to say my interpretation of the reffing was right and yours is wrong, but to provide evidence that your assertion of gamelong bias from the refs was ghastly and uncontrovertibly against the 76ers. Well, it is controvertible, because i thought something very different without any strong reason to prefer one outcome or ther other (in fact, i was mildly rooting for the Sixers).
Like, I am willing to entertain the ref conspiracy directed by the NBA as a possibility. I was rooting for the Kings in 2002, i half believed it then. I think its low, and wouldnt come into play often, but i can see a possibility there. Its your utter certainty, and how everything that supports your argument is further proof, and anything that doesnt goes unaddressed (Fiatl's L2M point) that leads to people (or at least me) disagreeing with you strongly on this.
But also, i dont really care, you can think that if you want. We all have opinions that seem deranged to others (like, some people here think Steph Curry is cool. Can you imagine?)
Boston can always give up a game.
there is absolutely, 100% zero doubt in my mind that the nba has been and will continue to lean on games to get outcomes that result in them making more money. obviously they aren't determining who wins like it's the WWE, but they will lean on things to benefit them and their pocketbooks, because that's all they care about. this is a tv contract year and they need these playoffs to be huge to cause there to be a bidding war between espn, nbc, and tnt for the rights to the a and b packages.
we live in a fundamentally corrupt society top to bottom, why on earth would you think 30 billionaires wouldn't conspire to increase their revenue and franchise value. they literally had an entire scandal about it and everyone just shrugged their shoulders, you'd be stupid to stop at that point.
david stern once said he knew where the bodies were buried, because he buried them.
they really messed up in 2008-2009 then because everyone was expecting a Kobe vs. Lebron Finals, but instead got Lakers vs. Magic, in which the Lakers absolutely dominated. Stern was still running the ship back then too.
Sure, yeah, im of course familiar with the general idea. In your conception of it, who is in on it? Adam Silver and some high execs, presumably, right? Refs, obvs. Is it some or all? Are the owners in on it? Is the 76ers owner laughing all the way to bank right now? What about team execs, like GMs? Presumably not coaches and players. Are broadcasters, or broadcasting execs?
This isnt me trying to poke holes or mocking, just wondering what the extent of it is, in your mind.
Weak Adam
Weak
Can't wait for the dubs to trade Dray and some other assets to Philly to get Joel , so to give Steph one more ,can y'all?
I can't say I hate the idea of the Warriors replacing the heart of their team with a soulless void of anti-heart instead.
He gutted it out through injury, and I respect that. He had some great games in there too!
He also has a history of putting his teammates on blast when losing in the playoffs, no showing in important games (Simmons was horrible against the Hawks but Embiid had some terrible games in there too that get ignored because of how ridiculous Simmons played towards the end), skipping big matchups in the regular season (against Jokic to close out last season), and whining about officiating while getting a very soft whistle himself. Even the stuff last year and prior where he spent so much time sulking about not being MVP yet in his press conferences.
He loses his composure easily, as seen with his dirty plays against the Knicks to close out the series. And I'm sorry, no matter how good you can be on the court, when you end games sulking like he did against the Knicks in game 2, I'm just not about it. I would be so upset if the best player on my team just hung his head and whined about being robbed by the officials in a close game like that instead of focusing on the mistakes he made and trying to improve. I don't care how bad/rigged the officiating is or isn't, it's just a terrible look as the leader of a team at any level of sport.
I get that we're on opposite ends on this one! But if I look at the guy's entire postseason career, the heart just isn't there despite some great moments. This post probably sounds like I think he's the worst player ever, he's not! He's incredibly good, but the intangibles are questionable at best when you look at his entire career on the balance.
He had a similar line about Harden after their first series loss together (not last year). Everyone hates Harden too, so Embiid often gets a pass. It just adds up for me!
Also the 76ers haven't put a leader on that court since Danny Green in 2021, but they have had a plethora of headcases! Honestly their best hope right now is that Maxey can grow into being the leader of the team
Most of my criticism predates the Bell's Palsy manifesting/being diagnosed, and I don't mean to criticize him for that at all. I think there's a volume of work that predates that and his general pouting about basketball and sometimes coming off as a poor leader stuff definitely does. Like we've had essentially this same discussion about Kevin Durant, and while they're not exact mirrors at all, the parallels are there.
At some point he has to shake being the only MVP not to make it past the second round in his career, and losing in the first round to a not incredibly talented team (in the context of playoff teams) that's plagued with injuries isn't righting the ship for me. He's had some weird teammates but he's far from like, the most talented player dealing with the worst rosters of all time or anything like that. Plenty of players have done more with less -- his skill level puts him in a place to compete with really elite company. I'm judging him on that scale and finding the results to ultimately be a bit lacking. Doing big things in big moments (which in the NBA is "getting deeper in the playoffs and dominating in those series") is what will let him shed that label, and time will tell if he can.
Embiid's fine in my book and the 76ers' woes are directly related to the complete lack of production from the team when Embiid isn't on the court
In American sports, aggregate stats in the playoffs get you jack. If you're +40 in one game and win and -50 the next game and lose, you just went 1-1. If you're +3 in one game and your team loses and you're +2 in the next game and your team loses, you just went 0-2. Congrats yeah you were a net positive in the latter, and a net negative in the former. But your team needed you to be more than "good low variance" to win one of those games.
In 2021, the #1 seed Philadelphia 76ers lost in 7 games to the #5 seed Atlanta Hawks in the semi-finals. Everyone remembers Simmons coming up small in game 7 -- it was horrendous, and all criticism of him is deserved.
In game 4 of that series, Joel Embiid shot 4-20 in a game they lost by three points.
How is that series loss not Joel Embiid's fault on some level? A series is not just game 7. It's not just the last two minutes. They were playing a less talented team, and Joel Embiid choked hard in game 4. If they won game 4, they probably win the series (it went to 7 games). If they win that series, hey congrats, he's now made the conference finals for the first and only time. All he had to do was not have a historically bad shooting performance. But instead, he had a historically bad shooting performance. I don't understand how that all gets compartmentalized to just Ben Simmons's mistakes, which were abundant but not the sole reason they lost that series. To reiterate -- this is not me saying it's only Embiid's fault. No it's definitely Doc Rivers's fault and Ben Simmons's fault and other people too! But it seems like it's also Embiid's fault, as the best player on the team who played terribly in a key playoff game.
I mean, the results are hard to argue with, but i put it down to luck more than lack of heart, per se. Luck in the sense of, always being injured through often flukey means (illnesses, broken faces, etc.). Of course, we always want to put the singular label on a guy (good heart/bad heart, most Hart), but obviously its never like that. In this series, Joel gutted it out through injuries, fatigue, illness, criticism, and did it while pouting and sometimes seeming disengaged. Does he have great heart for the load he carried? Or bad heart because he seemed disappointed/defeated at points?
Getting more philosophical here, we often like to think of the outcome of a players career as a direct measurement of who they were as a player, but we also know that just isn't the case. How good of a career a player has, and how good of a player they were, certainly have a correlation, but its not 1:1. But more and more (especially with RINGZ), we act like they are. That's a huge part, I think, of why players get more control freaky about the roster (LeGM, Giannis), or constantly demand trades (KD, Harden, etc.).
But there can be a wide gap between how good of a career a player has, and how good of a player they were, and I think Embiid is on pace to have one of the widest gaps (to the detriment of the career) of players that we'll see. I mean, he does at least have an MVP, which IMO is a huge accomplishment that has somehow been devalued over time (again, RINGZ), but so many dissapointing playoff results. I agree with Fiatil that's not like he has been tasked with carrying a succession of tragic rosters. Like, goddam, Portland Dame would have killed to have a player as good as Harden, Maxey, Butler, or Simmons on his team. Shit, he'd have loved to have a Tobias fucking Harris. And he actually made it farther than Embiid in a tougher conference (though, not actually any closer to a title, I would argue). Like, if you plot out the the reasonable high end and low end outcomes for a Joel Embiid playoff team before the playoffs, his team hits near the bottom every single time. At some point, that has to matter, right?
So, is Embiid a tremendous talent and incredible basketball player? Yes. Has he had a pretty disappointing playoff career? Yes. Has he contributed to the teams high expectations? Yes. Has he contributed to them underperforming those expectations? Yes. Has he show incredible toughness and grit playing through a bunch of injuries? Yes. Has he seemed to sometimes sulk, deflect responsibility, or disengage from the game when its not going his way? Yes. Has he had bad luck leading to some disappointing outcomes? Yes. Has he had injuries due to his body and style of play that can be labelled as "injury prone"? Yes. Has he had amazing playoff games where he has carried his team? Yes. Has he had terrible playoff games where he probably cause his team to lose? Yes.
All of these things about him seem to be true. I wouldn't sum it up as "no heart", but I also wouldn't sum it up as "great player, bad teammates, bad luck" either.
Nah he doesn't have literally 0 heart. I was being hyperbolic as the description I used probably only applies to Ben Simmons. But I do think he shares the blame for the 76ers lack of playoff success and often gets a pass because of stuff like the BIG HEADLINE of Simmons completely choking.
If Embiid is a 10/10 on the skills level I'm giving him like a 6/10 on heart/intangibles. I just can't go as far on the "how great he would be if he were never injured" as some people here have, when there are questions about his performance in the biggest moments that aren't tied directly to injuries. All it takes is one season of him fully healthy and rocking to reverse the narrative. He's getting older, but it can happen! I need to see him just dominate some later round playoff series before I start pondering how high he would be on the all time greats list if he were healthy more often.
94 Hakeem
96 MJ
98 MJ
00 Shaq
03 Duncan
12 LeBron
13 Lebron
15 Curry
like yes, hes always hurt and that is certainly a knock against him from a purely basketball perspective. but to say he has no heart and doesn’t try his hardest to win is purely divorced from reality.