I know people have talked about finances and such, and yes I did get taught about compounding interest as a kid, and even did a unit in 7th grade where we were required to choose a stock and then follow it to see how the stock market works over time, and those are both great. We even did a week of 'balancing a paper checkbook,' because I'm a senior citizen. But I think they're way more complicated than what I mean when I say 'basic financial information'. I mean basic.
I'm in the US of A so that means things like - what is an overdraft fee? How do you get one? How often does your bank's app/system update your balance? What kind of payments can overdraft your account even if you have the ability to overdraft turned off? And for that matter, information about basic banking laws to protect you - that you can opt out of the bank letting your account overdraft, for instance. That closing an account doesn't mean the balance owed goes away! How long it takes deposits to clear, and that mobile deposits are exempt from some federal banking protection laws, and you really shouldn't do them unless you have to! And like, I guarantee most of you think that isn't something that needs to be taught in school because you know it, you figured it out yourself or a parent walked you through it, or you've simply never had so little money that you needed to know how long it takes payments to clear and how overdraft fees work. But as a person whose partner works in banking collections, the number of people he talks to every day that have absolutely no concept of how basic banking works is staggering, and if the only person who's willing to walk you through how the banking system works is the person who works for a company that's trying to get money from you... I'm not saying that they're encouraged to lie to customers, but even the employees are given information that is actually not true when it comes to federal laws. There have been several times my partner has told me about something from work and I've had to be like, yeah so actually that's not accurate and possibly illegal behavior on the part of your employer.
I know that'll never be a thing in the states because banks would absolutely scream bloody murder about losing all that easy money, but I could dream. Basically everyone in this country is required to have a bank account in some capacity, or touch on the banking system in some way, but the very fundamental basics of how to avoid getting absolutely fucked by your bank are not something we teach in school.
Teaching how overdraft fees work would mean exposing how predatory and lying the banks are and well we can't have that. Kids might start getting ideas on how to improve things.
Without making the school day longer, I honestly don't know. I took about as many electives as I could. My high school was six periods: two periods in the morning, a 15 minute break, two more classes, a 30 minute lunch, and two classes in the afternoon. In my freshman, sophomore, and junior years, I did eight classes per day; adding a class before and after the regular day. In order to fit the required classes in while also taking four years of band and theatre, I had to do this. I don't think any of my classes were a waste either. Economics, US Government, and History were probably too shallow. Each of them taught by an athletics coach to get them enough classes for full time status I'm assuming. But I certainly wouldn't remove them from the curriculum.
I think home economics should move from an elective to a requirement. I can't say I learned a whole lot of life skills in school. That could be the case already though. I haven't interacted with the public school system since leaving it.
I think school attendance is better solved by incentives for attendance rather than mandatory attendance by law because the latter just gives cops and excuse to harass kids
Incentives could theoretically help balance getting those families in need out of poverty
0
Zonugal(He/Him) The Holiday ArmadilloI'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered Userregular
I don't know if folks really grasp how bad attendance has become in the past five or so years.
I like how that article lumps in keeping home sick children so they don't spread their shit as just as much of a problem as everything else.
Also remote working is bad too apparently. God the NY Times blows.
I don't doubt the fact that attendance is a growing problem, though. I'm not sure my state/district/whatever is so lenient about it, they've definitely jumped on any absence practically right as the school day started if we didn't call it in beforehand when our kiddo was sick.
My current school has an attendance rate of 52% for students attending 90% or more of school days.
I believe it
In 9th grade I attended like 12 days of the school year total before dropping out before tenth.
And school and life for kids can't have actually gotten easier, since the early aughts, considering everything, sprinkle on a big pandemic and it makes perfect sense.
Uriel on
+2
DepressperadoI just wanted to see you laughingin the pizza rainRegistered Userregular
man I miss those days when I didn't go to school, so I didn't have any responsibilities and could be a reckless little teenage boner slug with no ragrets
those were good days.
0
Blake TDo you have enemies then?Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life.Registered Userregular
Honestly, while smart phones are likely the biggest issue across the nation (for the United States), our current challenge with school absences is frankly obscene.
Within my own state, attending school is entirely optional for a child.
Absences is easily the single biggest contributing factor to students in my class failing. They simply don't come to school and thus aren't learning.
Wait, what? That's insane
I have no idea if kids were legally required to go to school when I was a kid because I went anyway because I'm a dork, but jesus how the hell does that make any sense
I mean, kids should be going to school, but I live in an area with inter generational poverty and these kids are working 30 plus hours a week to help (or to make ends meet themselves) I have kids who are fourteen that are homeless. I can’t really fault these kids not attending, I want them to, to help break cycles, but you need to look at the situation they’re in before we just punish people for not attending.
Great points
Guess I'm showing my privilege by not even considering those situations
I mean, to be clear even as a doe eyed uni student doing my grad dip in education I didn’t really understand it well until I showed up at public schools again doing my placement prac.
The fact is, if you were even mediumly successful at school you probably hung out with those similarly minded people. As much as everyone has the shared experience of school, everyone’s experience is pretty different.
man I miss those days when I didn't go to school, so I didn't have any responsibilities and could be a reckless little teenage boner slug with no ragrets
those were good days.
They weren't for me!
I was socially isolated and emotionally neglected and adjacent to the physical abuse of my step siblings. You'd think school would be an escape but I also had to hear the nightmare stories from claw about the way they treated them in school for being autistic. So ultimately I never felt like I had anywhere I was safe or secure.
Anyways kids today I'm sure have it just as bad if not worse in many cases. I wish more schools could get the budgets to afford programs for troubled kids like I was. I know some schools are much better about it but they tend to be like autistim model schools and such, not regular public ones.
+2
DepressperadoI just wanted to see you laughingin the pizza rainRegistered Userregular
oh yeah, I fully recognize that I was and continue to be very lucky, especially with wrt to reaping what I've been sowing
0
ShadowfireVermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered Userregular
My kid missed 19 days this year which is about. 10% of school or so? But she's 9 so they're passing germs fucking constantly and I'd rather her stay home sick than spread the sickness around. Out of all those days I think two were "nah, she's just staying home" days.
School is a difficult topic for many people, who can only remember it as a really traumatising experience. I think it massive impacts the kind of conversation we can have about it.
+3
Brovid Hasselsmof[Growling historic on the fury road]Registered Userregular
I'm always surprised by how well other people seem to remember it. It feels like an entire lifetime ago to me, it happened to a completely different person.
+8
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Philosophy, mythology, and world history.
World history wasn't really offered until I got to high school and is a major gap in my knowledge base.
I'd also put more of a focus on the history of the Napoleonic wars, the lead up to WW1, and then WW1 and WW2. It is insane how much the modern political climate is still being influenced by decisions made nearly two hundred fuckin years ago.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I think History would be better served not focusing so much on wars and 'great men.' War doesn't really feel like it's taught as a failure state. Should be a lot more focus on civilizations developing and advancing technologies.
Zonugal(He/Him) The Holiday ArmadilloI'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered Userregular
The idea that we should give more time to World War I and especially World War II is very funny to me.
World War II already almost gets a month just for itself.
+11
Librarian's ghostLibrarian, Ghostbuster, and TimSporkRegistered Userregular
edited June 19
My school probably does the most instruction about WW1 but that is only because I’m an actual expert on the subject and all the freshman history teachers have me come to their classes for me to give my nationally recognized WW1 lesson.
Yes I am going to bring that last bit up at much as possible. It is like my one claim to fame. That and the state history teaching award I won once.
Even then it is only 90 minutes but I have graduating seniors who tell me how well they remember that lesson so I do the best I can with the time I get.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I'm always surprised by how well other people seem to remember it. It feels like an entire lifetime ago to me, it happened to a completely different person.
Whoooooole lotta people never leave high school. Let it order their whole worldview, forever.
+13
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I'm always surprised by how well other people seem to remember it. It feels like an entire lifetime ago to me, it happened to a completely different person.
Whoooooole lotta people never leave high school. Let it order their whole worldview, forever.
God.
I cannot run away from high school fast enough.
What a miserable and dreary existence that was.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
+1
Zonugal(He/Him) The Holiday ArmadilloI'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered Userregular
This is meant as no guff towards anybody in this thread, but there is a challenge in talking to people about education when they have been so far removed from it.
The average age of posters on these forums likely means that you graduated high school when George W. Bush sat in the oval office.
Things have changed, they have developed, and if your only frame of reference is what occurred two decades ago, man, I don't know if you're really operating on a contemporary understanding of what education simply looks like nowadays.
And this isn't meant to stifle anybody from continuing to contribute to this discussion, I think its just a severe obstacle in having it in general.
The idea that we should give more time to World War I and especially World War II is very funny to me.
World War II already almost gets a month just for itself.
My section of World War 2 history high school was covered entirely by watching the acclaimed historical documentary "Pearl Harbor" starting Ben Affleck and Josh Hartnett. Did I mention my US History teacher was the water polo coach?
And no, by the way, I'm not kidding. That was the entire section on World War 2 as "taught" by my US History teacher. Fortunately, the Holocaust was covered in middle school, but my American History education in high school was kinda non-existent.
The idea that we should give more time to World War I and especially World War II is very funny to me.
World War II already almost gets a month just for itself.
That’s too much for just one part of history of the wars of colonialism and imperialism
A month to cover it all as a theme of the inbred dipshit royals of Europe murdering the world and their proxy wars occasionally erupting into wars in Europe that eventually ended the French, German, Austrian, Ottoman, and Russian monarchies, and the liberal centrists in France, Germany, and Russia being incapable of providing for their countries in the post-monarchy eras allowing authoritarians to come to power, and then the rise of Imperial Japan in response to how much of Asia Europe and the US controlled…..
Why should they teach us that which everybody is born with? The human mind knows the perfect form of the horse before birth - before conception - and how to put it to paper. It is the eyes of our peers that are wrong in their understanding of it.
This is meant as no guff towards anybody in this thread, but there is a challenge in talking to people about education when they have been so far removed from it.
The average age of posters on these forums likely means that you graduated high school when George W. Bush sat in the oval office.
Things have changed, they have developed, and if your only frame of reference is what occurred two decades ago, man, I don't know if you're really operating on a contemporary understanding of what education simply looks like nowadays.
And this isn't meant to stifle anybody from continuing to contribute to this discussion, I think its just a severe obstacle in having it in general.
Frame of reference: I enjoyed school for the most part, I currently have 2 kids in school, and my wife has been a teacher for 14 years (middle, high, and special needs)
Schools have made tremendous leaps forward in a LOT of things concerning adaptive education.
Ultimately I think they're failing in some areas as a result but ultimately they're much better.
Like most people I can really only give anecdotes but as my wife agrees with me for the most part I think I'm hitting close to home
edit: typing on my phone which I hate
examples of good vs. bad I see
my son had a really REALLY tough time his first few years of school. He hated everything about it. He discovered the 'calm down corner' (which is a good idea! unless .... ) and how to abuse it. Throw a tantrum and you didn't have to do anything for 15 minutes. Hooray!
his teachers seemed completely unprepared for a first grader abusing the system.
I'll go into more later, but that was probably the biggest one that sticks out to me as a big improvement until it's not
This is meant as no guff towards anybody in this thread, but there is a challenge in talking to people about education when they have been so far removed from it.
The average age of posters on these forums likely means that you graduated high school when George W. Bush sat in the oval office.
Things have changed, they have developed, and if your only frame of reference is what occurred two decades ago, man, I don't know if you're really operating on a contemporary understanding of what education simply looks like nowadays.
And this isn't meant to stifle anybody from continuing to contribute to this discussion, I think its just a severe obstacle in having it in general.
I think they should put less emphasis on the four humours in science class and spend more time on alchemical formalism.
Zonugal(He/Him) The Holiday ArmadilloI'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered Userregular
edited June 19
If you all think developing a curriculum guide for U.S. History is hard, holy shit, World History is maddening.
You're given a semester to cover everything from 1200 to roughly 1700, but are also free to cover anything before or after that time span as well.
What do you choose? How do you structure it? Do you stick to a chronological approach or a thematic approach?
This is a debate that has been going on for 120+ years and we still don't have an answer for it.
Zonugal on
+3
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited June 19
First, I'm talking about how I wish things were for me when I was in school. Second, I want the accurate history and not the sanitized version. In general, I feel that history taught to kids is way too sanitized. I'm learning so much stuff to this day that directly contradicts what I was taught in school. Third, I want them to bring in modern events and to show how the history flows from itself.
I teach kids right now. This is the kind of shit they don't know about. Not directing this at anyone in particular, but don't have assumptions that the everyone is on the same page as your anecdotes on how teaching has changed.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
here's my school non-attendance anecdote, I started taking medication to help with my chronic anxiety and depression in my 3rd year of HS and just... stopped going! The anxiety was getting managed all right, and it turned out that was the only thing motivating me to go to classes. I finished school eventually but realizing how much I fucking hated that place and the idea that the world wouldn't end if I missed an assignment or even failed classes from that experience kind of changed my whole worldview. EDUCATION is bloody important but the institution of school in the united states as it existed when I was a student and probably hasn't changed from that much since is monstrous to some people.
BahamutZERO on
+1
ShadowfireVermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered Userregular
I think History would be better served not focusing so much on wars and 'great men.' War doesn't really feel like it's taught as a failure state. Should be a lot more focus on civilizations developing and advancing technologies.
I wouldn't mind being taught about the "great men" if we could show people that, for instance, the founding fathers were not infallible. They're rich, white, hypocritical, messy folks and I think kids would be far more interested in learning about them, flaws and all, if we were honest.
Consequences. For not doing the work, not following the rules, or not knowing the material. A degree represents a certification of knowing certain stuff and having done other stuff. Don't know the stuff? Didn't do the stuff? No degree for you! It robs the degree of its value for those who did meet the expectations.
I teach higher ed and the number of students over the last 10 years who have come to me with an expectation of "But I came to class! But I tried! But I turned in some things!" and think that that somehow equates to a passing grade is ludicrous. Equally ludicrous is the number of students who now think that doing all assignments means you get an A. No buddy, A means you were excellent. Ain't many of those every semester and their A's mean something.
Seriously, high schools are setting so many students up for failure in higher ed. It's a scandal.
+1
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
here's my school non-attendance anecdote, I started taking medication to help with my chronic anxiety and depression in my 3rd year of HS and just... stopped going! The anxiety was getting managed all right, and it turned out that was the only thing motivating me to go to classes. I finished school eventually but realizing how much I fucking hated that place from that experience kind of changed my whole worldview. School is bloody important but the institution of school in the united states as it existed when I was a student and probably hasn't changed from that much since is monstrous to some people.
There is a decent amount of hope. Some of the changes I saw were a higher focus on inclusivity and diversity, with children being encouraged by teachers to be better than we were. There are still bullies, and they are often bullies for the same reasons as before. Insecurity, trouble at home, needing attention. But I have really been impressed with how many parents are taking their kids to therapy, how they are talking to kids about not bullying others on the spectrum, and how they are learning better empathy skills in general.
That said, the bulk of the non-social education around here is still dogwater poopoo. Its why I would go out of my way to teach kids about topics they were directly interested in, and about subject matter they wouldn't really get in school. Crazy biology facts! Actual historical information about MLK and Columbus! They still teach kids the same lies about Columbus, it's insane.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Posts
I'm in the US of A so that means things like - what is an overdraft fee? How do you get one? How often does your bank's app/system update your balance? What kind of payments can overdraft your account even if you have the ability to overdraft turned off? And for that matter, information about basic banking laws to protect you - that you can opt out of the bank letting your account overdraft, for instance. That closing an account doesn't mean the balance owed goes away! How long it takes deposits to clear, and that mobile deposits are exempt from some federal banking protection laws, and you really shouldn't do them unless you have to! And like, I guarantee most of you think that isn't something that needs to be taught in school because you know it, you figured it out yourself or a parent walked you through it, or you've simply never had so little money that you needed to know how long it takes payments to clear and how overdraft fees work. But as a person whose partner works in banking collections, the number of people he talks to every day that have absolutely no concept of how basic banking works is staggering, and if the only person who's willing to walk you through how the banking system works is the person who works for a company that's trying to get money from you... I'm not saying that they're encouraged to lie to customers, but even the employees are given information that is actually not true when it comes to federal laws. There have been several times my partner has told me about something from work and I've had to be like, yeah so actually that's not accurate and possibly illegal behavior on the part of your employer.
I know that'll never be a thing in the states because banks would absolutely scream bloody murder about losing all that easy money, but I could dream. Basically everyone in this country is required to have a bank account in some capacity, or touch on the banking system in some way, but the very fundamental basics of how to avoid getting absolutely fucked by your bank are not something we teach in school.
I think home economics should move from an elective to a requirement. I can't say I learned a whole lot of life skills in school. That could be the case already though. I haven't interacted with the public school system since leaving it.
Incentives could theoretically help balance getting those families in need out of poverty
It's REAL BAD
My current school has an attendance rate of 52% for students attending 90% or more of school days.
Also remote working is bad too apparently. God the NY Times blows.
I don't doubt the fact that attendance is a growing problem, though. I'm not sure my state/district/whatever is so lenient about it, they've definitely jumped on any absence practically right as the school day started if we didn't call it in beforehand when our kiddo was sick.
I believe it
In 9th grade I attended like 12 days of the school year total before dropping out before tenth.
And school and life for kids can't have actually gotten easier, since the early aughts, considering everything, sprinkle on a big pandemic and it makes perfect sense.
those were good days.
I mean, to be clear even as a doe eyed uni student doing my grad dip in education I didn’t really understand it well until I showed up at public schools again doing my placement prac.
The fact is, if you were even mediumly successful at school you probably hung out with those similarly minded people. As much as everyone has the shared experience of school, everyone’s experience is pretty different.
Satans..... hints.....
They weren't for me!
I was socially isolated and emotionally neglected and adjacent to the physical abuse of my step siblings. You'd think school would be an escape but I also had to hear the nightmare stories from claw about the way they treated them in school for being autistic. So ultimately I never felt like I had anywhere I was safe or secure.
Anyways kids today I'm sure have it just as bad if not worse in many cases. I wish more schools could get the budgets to afford programs for troubled kids like I was. I know some schools are much better about it but they tend to be like autistim model schools and such, not regular public ones.
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197970666737/
World history wasn't really offered until I got to high school and is a major gap in my knowledge base.
I'd also put more of a focus on the history of the Napoleonic wars, the lead up to WW1, and then WW1 and WW2. It is insane how much the modern political climate is still being influenced by decisions made nearly two hundred fuckin years ago.
{Twitter, Everybody's doing it. }{Writing and Story Blog}
World War II already almost gets a month just for itself.
Yes I am going to bring that last bit up at much as possible. It is like my one claim to fame. That and the state history teaching award I won once.
Even then it is only 90 minutes but I have graduating seniors who tell me how well they remember that lesson so I do the best I can with the time I get.
Well good? When I was in school we never got past the 1900s and only touched on the European history prior.
Whoooooole lotta people never leave high school. Let it order their whole worldview, forever.
God.
I cannot run away from high school fast enough.
What a miserable and dreary existence that was.
The average age of posters on these forums likely means that you graduated high school when George W. Bush sat in the oval office.
Things have changed, they have developed, and if your only frame of reference is what occurred two decades ago, man, I don't know if you're really operating on a contemporary understanding of what education simply looks like nowadays.
And this isn't meant to stifle anybody from continuing to contribute to this discussion, I think its just a severe obstacle in having it in general.
My section of World War 2 history high school was covered entirely by watching the acclaimed historical documentary "Pearl Harbor" starting Ben Affleck and Josh Hartnett. Did I mention my US History teacher was the water polo coach?
And no, by the way, I'm not kidding. That was the entire section on World War 2 as "taught" by my US History teacher. Fortunately, the Holocaust was covered in middle school, but my American History education in high school was kinda non-existent.
That’s too much for just one part of history of the wars of colonialism and imperialism
A month to cover it all as a theme of the inbred dipshit royals of Europe murdering the world and their proxy wars occasionally erupting into wars in Europe that eventually ended the French, German, Austrian, Ottoman, and Russian monarchies, and the liberal centrists in France, Germany, and Russia being incapable of providing for their countries in the post-monarchy eras allowing authoritarians to come to power, and then the rise of Imperial Japan in response to how much of Asia Europe and the US controlled…..
Ok fuck what was I talking about
Why should they teach us that which everybody is born with? The human mind knows the perfect form of the horse before birth - before conception - and how to put it to paper. It is the eyes of our peers that are wrong in their understanding of it.
The Pain Hole is integral to their development!
Frame of reference: I enjoyed school for the most part, I currently have 2 kids in school, and my wife has been a teacher for 14 years (middle, high, and special needs)
Schools have made tremendous leaps forward in a LOT of things concerning adaptive education.
Ultimately I think they're failing in some areas as a result but ultimately they're much better.
Like most people I can really only give anecdotes but as my wife agrees with me for the most part I think I'm hitting close to home
edit: typing on my phone which I hate
examples of good vs. bad I see
my son had a really REALLY tough time his first few years of school. He hated everything about it. He discovered the 'calm down corner' (which is a good idea! unless .... ) and how to abuse it. Throw a tantrum and you didn't have to do anything for 15 minutes. Hooray!
his teachers seemed completely unprepared for a first grader abusing the system.
I'll go into more later, but that was probably the biggest one that sticks out to me as a big improvement until it's not
Basically it does sound much better from everything I've heard. Which I find remarkable and encouraging.
I think they should put less emphasis on the four humours in science class and spend more time on alchemical formalism.
You're given a semester to cover everything from 1200 to roughly 1700, but are also free to cover anything before or after that time span as well.
What do you choose? How do you structure it? Do you stick to a chronological approach or a thematic approach?
This is a debate that has been going on for 120+ years and we still don't have an answer for it.
I teach kids right now. This is the kind of shit they don't know about. Not directing this at anyone in particular, but don't have assumptions that the everyone is on the same page as your anecdotes on how teaching has changed.
I wouldn't mind being taught about the "great men" if we could show people that, for instance, the founding fathers were not infallible. They're rich, white, hypocritical, messy folks and I think kids would be far more interested in learning about them, flaws and all, if we were honest.
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197970666737/
I teach higher ed and the number of students over the last 10 years who have come to me with an expectation of "But I came to class! But I tried! But I turned in some things!" and think that that somehow equates to a passing grade is ludicrous. Equally ludicrous is the number of students who now think that doing all assignments means you get an A. No buddy, A means you were excellent. Ain't many of those every semester and their A's mean something.
Seriously, high schools are setting so many students up for failure in higher ed. It's a scandal.
There is a decent amount of hope. Some of the changes I saw were a higher focus on inclusivity and diversity, with children being encouraged by teachers to be better than we were. There are still bullies, and they are often bullies for the same reasons as before. Insecurity, trouble at home, needing attention. But I have really been impressed with how many parents are taking their kids to therapy, how they are talking to kids about not bullying others on the spectrum, and how they are learning better empathy skills in general.
That said, the bulk of the non-social education around here is still dogwater poopoo. Its why I would go out of my way to teach kids about topics they were directly interested in, and about subject matter they wouldn't really get in school. Crazy biology facts! Actual historical information about MLK and Columbus! They still teach kids the same lies about Columbus, it's insane.