Obviously the solution is that Section 31 does in fact have absolute power and corruption is prevented because the truly absolute controller of Section 31 is, in fact, Data from the future, having travelled back in time after seeing the Federation decay, by means of not one or even two but three modified detector dishes.
Obviously.
Only after reversing polarity on the replicators, seeking moral guidance from Guinan, and turning Barclay back into that giant spider thing.
Omfg, yes. Yes!
Deflector arrays, you posers. Not "detector dishes". :P
There's a dish, too: remember in First Contact when the Borg needed to modify the deflector dish to assembled an interplexing beacon to single for 21st-century Borg backup?
Obviously the solution is that Section 31 does in fact have absolute power and corruption is prevented because the truly absolute controller of Section 31 is, in fact, Data from the future, having travelled back in time after seeing the Federation decay, by means of not one or even two but three modified detector dishes.
Obviously.
Only after reversing polarity on the replicators, seeking moral guidance from Guinan, and turning Barclay back into that giant spider thing.
Omfg, yes. Yes!
Deflector arrays, you posers. Not "detector dishes". :P
There's a dish, too: remember in First Contact when the Borg needed to modify the deflector dish to assembled an interplexing beacon to single for 21st-century Borg backup?
Yes, they did call it an "interplexing beacon."
Fair enough, but it's still deflector, not detector.
I totally dig the optomist/hippiest/communist ideals of everyone contributing and being able to wipe out poverty. But why doesn't anyone in the 24th century cuss, or go to the bathroom?
I totally dig the optomist/hippiest/communist ideals of everyone contributing and being able to wipe out poverty. But why doesn't anyone in the 24th century cuss, or go to the bathroom?
I remember Picard/Riker/Various others saying "damn" and "hell" quite often. And while I don't recall any specific scenes of aliens taking care of business, I imagine that Worf must've dropped a deuce most righteous from time to time.
I totally dig the optomist/hippiest/communist ideals of everyone contributing and being able to wipe out poverty. But why doesn't anyone in the 24th century cuss, or go to the bathroom?
And while we're at it, how is it possible for some piece of technology to translate languages it's never encountered before almost automatically?
And how come almost all the species are just minor variations on humanity?
And why don't you ever see anyone fuck?
Oh, right. Because it's a TV show, and there are certain legal and budgetary limitations imposed on it.
I think making Section 31 a massive powerful organization that is always active and has independent control or even significant autonomy would be silly and wouldn't fit with Trek.
However I also think that having the Federation completely unbending in its principles, even in the face of said extraordinary threats, would be equally silly and would break my suspension of disbelief. My favourite episodes of Trek are where their principles clash with the demands reality and they have to wrestle with the idea of bending them. The aforementioned Sisko ep where he assassinates that Romulan diplomat, for example - fantastic ep.
What makes them so good though is that they exist in the context of an idealistic yet successful empire, and in the context of a show where people generally have solid principles that they stick to, and most of the time I think that should be what they do. I don't want a completely dark political Trek any more than you do, I just think it's important that the Federation not be rigid and unbending.
Interesting. I think I disagree, insomuch as one of my favorite episodes (aforementioned) is "I, Borg," wherein Picard has to wrestle with his fear and hate of the Borg when deciding whether to infect the Collective with a computer virus that will destroy them all. In the end, he (like everyone else--Georgi, Beverly IIRC, even Guinan, whose people were virtually annihilated by the Borg) admits that the disconnected Borg drone they've rescued, Hugh, is a person and fully entitled to "human" rights, so they don't infect him with the virus.
I like this episode because of its naked idealism. When faced with the choice of bending (or breaking) a moral rule in order to gain safety against the most dangerous foe they've ever encountered, Picard and co. choose instead to risk destruction of the entire Federation rather than violate Hugh's right to exist. It's not a choice made lightly, and it takes Picard a good deal of time to get there, but he still does, and it's great.
I've seen the DS9 episode you mention, and it's always bugged me because of the direct comparison to "I, Borg."
Also, I almost quit Voyager after "Tuvix." Very similar moral dilemma for captain, opposite decision.
That's part of why the show is interesting - it's a universe where the Federation and its officers are powerful/effective enough to bluntly apply their ideals without compromise and still have a chance of success and survival.
However, there are times when naked idealism is absurd, and I'm sure Picard would have regretted his decision had he witnessed the downfall and destruction of the Federation and its billions and billions of inhabitants. His decision would not have been admirable had the virus been the only possible way to defeat the Borg, for example.
Regardless, the Federation is more interesting if its movers and shakers must struggle with their principles and the decision might go either way. If Picard had been in charge of DS9, that Romulan diplomat would have gone unmolested, I'm pretty sure. That made it all the more surprising when Sisko chose to bend the rules. Suddenly viewers are uncertain as to whether these pillars of justice will persevere and stick to their principles like they've always done, or if they'll put the survival of their people and the Federation ahead of those principles. I like that uncertainty, and I like the contrast between Picard and Sisko. Not everyone is a Picard, after all; not everyone can stick to their principles and still manage to come out both alive and successful. I think people like Picard (and of course Kirk and the like) would be the exceptional individuals in an already exceptional society.
Obviously the solution is that Section 31 does in fact have absolute power and corruption is prevented because the truly absolute controller of Section 31 is, in fact, Data from the future, having travelled back in time after seeing the Federation decay, by means of not one or even two but three modified detector dishes.
Obviously.
Only after reversing polarity on the replicators, seeking moral guidance from Guinan, and turning Barclay back into that giant spider thing.
Omfg, yes. Yes!
Deflector arrays, you posers. Not "detector dishes". :P
There's a dish, too: remember in First Contact when the Borg needed to modify the deflector dish to assembled an interplexing beacon to single for 21st-century Borg backup?
Yes, they did call it an "interplexing beacon."
Fair enough, but it's still deflector, not detector.
That was a mistype by me. My computer at work has significant text lag and I often don't see typos until I click "submit."
* Section 31
* Time War
* The Dominion (every week the writers had to lie and say "yeah, we're ending it next week, promise")
* Starfeet/Maquis conflict on the bridge of Voyager
* The Romulan War
* The founding of the Federation
But the Time War was stupid. Like, really stupid. Unless you're talking about something other than the Enterprise storyline.
I don't even know what the "Romulan War" is; I assume it was in Enterprise.
I was indeed talking about something other than the Enterprise storyline. I was talking about a non-retarded Time War. A Time War with time agents fighting accross time, using paradoxes and temporal loops and parallel universes as weapons (I loved episodes like TNG's Parallels or Cause and Effect... hell Shattered is the one and only Voyager episode that didn't suck IMO). Basically, a Time War that's not EVIL TIME-TRAVELLING ALIEN NAZIS TAKE OVER AMERICA.
The Romulan War wasn't in Enterprise, and how you can make that assumption when I clearly labelled the list "ideas rejected by Star Trek people" is beyond me. The Romulan War is a nuclear war Spock mentioned on TOS as taking place a hundred years prior, between Earth and Romulus. It became one of the key events in Star Trek history and led to the founding of the Federation and to centuries of Romulans resenting us. It's been alluded to many times, but never seen, and would make a great setting for a series.
The Romulan War wasn't in Enterprise, and how you can make that assumption when I clearly labelled the list "ideas rejected by Star Trek people" is beyond me.
Well, several of the things you listed as "rejected" were actually done anyhow, so I think I can be excused for being a tiny bit confused.
I was indeed talking about something other than the Enterprise storyline. I was talking about a non-retarded Time War. A Time War with time agents fighting accross time, using paradoxes and temporal loops and parallel universes as weapons (I loved episodes like TNG's Parallels or Cause and Effect... hell Shattered is the one and only Voyager episode that didn't suck IMO). Basically, a Time War that's not EVIL TIME-TRAVELLING ALIEN NAZIS TAKE OVER AMERICA.
This is a fantastic idea and one that I hope someone, somewhere addresses in a visual entertainment format soon. (I phrase it that way because I'm not so sure that it's the basis of an entire Star Trek series, although a recurring theme or miniseries would work. As long as starships trekking through space are involved.
The Romulan War wasn't in Enterprise, and how you can make that assumption when I clearly labelled the list "ideas rejected by Star Trek people" is beyond me. The Romulan War is a nuclear war Spock mentioned on TOS as taking place a hundred years prior, between Earth and Romulus. It became one of the key events in Star Trek history and led to the founding of the Federation and to centuries of Romulans resenting us. It's been alluded to many times, but never seen, and would make a great setting for a series.
Fourth-season Enterprise was starting to address this a little, I think, at least moving in that direction. And yes, Enterprise was awful at retconning left and right, but at this point I think any attempt to show the Romulan War will necessarily involve major retconning.
The Romulan War wasn't in Enterprise, and how you can make that assumption when I clearly labelled the list "ideas rejected by Star Trek people" is beyond me. The Romulan War is a nuclear war Spock mentioned on TOS as taking place a hundred years prior, between Earth and Romulus. It became one of the key events in Star Trek history and led to the founding of the Federation and to centuries of Romulans resenting us. It's been alluded to many times, but never seen, and would make a great setting for a series.
Fourth-season Enterprise was starting to address this a little, I think, at least moving in that direction. And yes, Enterprise was awful at retconning left and right, but at this point I think any attempt to show the Romulan War will necessarily involve major retconning.
Well they had a story arc about how the Romulans were trying to poke wars and how humanity could get all races together to fight back. Then they skipped ahead 10 years and jumped over the entire war without anyone even mentioning it.
Which is something to be thankful for, I guess. Given how poorly the rest of the series was done, I don't want to imagine how they would have fucked over the Romulan War. It would probably have been a five-minute fire-fight, then focused on T'Pol and Hoshi getting naked and rubbing anti-phaser-burn gel on each other for the rest of the episode.
Please explain to me why you aren't pitching this to the star trek people.
This is the best idea ever.
Why are you still reading this? Go pitch!
Ideas rejected by the Star Trek people:
* Section 31
* Time War
* The Dominion (every week the writers had to lie and say "yeah, we're ending it next week, promise")
* Starfeet/Maquis conflict on the bridge of Voyager
* The Romulan War
* The founding of the Federation
Ideas accepted by Star Trek people:
* T'Pol in skin-tight catsuits
* T'Pol naked
* T'Pol catching a horny virus
* EVIL TIME-TRAVELLING ALIEN NAZIS TAKE OVER AMERICA!!!!
Richy, now I'm totally certain that Paramount is run by evil time-traveling Nazis sent to 21st century Earth with express purpose of destroying the Star Trek franchise for their own nefarious ends.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
I was indeed talking about something other than the Enterprise storyline. I was talking about a non-retarded Time War. A Time War with time agents fighting accross time, using paradoxes and temporal loops and parallel universes as weapons (I loved episodes like TNG's Parallels or Cause and Effect... hell Shattered is the one and only Voyager episode that didn't suck IMO). Basically, a Time War that's not EVIL TIME-TRAVELLING ALIEN NAZIS TAKE OVER AMERICA.
This is a fantastic idea and one that I hope someone, somewhere addresses in a visual entertainment format soon. (I phrase it that way because I'm not so sure that it's the basis of an entire Star Trek series, although a recurring theme or miniseries would work. As long as starships trekking through space are involved.
Dr. Who also has something like this, although as far as I know no one knows anything about it, since it hasn't been elaborated on very much.
I thought in the Dr. Who universe the war was long over.
I don't know much about Dr. Who though I just started to watch that show
You can't really qualify "long over" in a time war, if you think about it
And then if you think about it some more you get a headache
Regardless, Dr. Who has not covered the Time War yet, they've just had the Doctor say it's happened and what the result was. It apparently happened between Eccleston and the Doctor before him.
To take the thread in a direction, we all love the ships, right? They make the show that much more exciting. So, which is everyone's favourite ships? I'll start off with mine...
Two classic ships there, the glorious Enterprise-A and the lovely Excelsior.
Not many people seem to like the Ambassador class, but it's one of my favourites.
C'mon... who doesn't like this ship?
I love the Prometheus. Such a sexy design.
I still play Bridge Commander to this day, and I'm looking forward to upgrading my pc as it means I can add that many more ships to the quick battles. Can't do anything about the bugs and constant crashing, but eh... it's as close as this geek will ever get. As someone who plays the game often and has watched the modding scene over the years, it's given me an appreciation of the bridges from the ships. My favourite (although the Sovereign's comes in at a close second) is the Enterprise-A bridge from The Undiscovered Country. It's so... atmospheric, and much more believable than any of the others.
Edit - I realise that the ship up there isn't actually the Enterprise-A, it's the original. "Give me the Enterprise, registry number NCC-1701. No bloody A, B, C or D."
Rohan on
...and I thought of how all those people died, and what a good death that is. That nobody can blame you for it, because everyone else died along with you, and it is the fault of none, save those who did the killing.
I couldn't find a good one of the old bird of prey.
Oh my, yes.</farnsworth>
Rohan on
...and I thought of how all those people died, and what a good death that is. That nobody can blame you for it, because everyone else died along with you, and it is the fault of none, save those who did the killing.
The Akira-class heavy cruiser has always been my favorite ship. It has eleven torp tubes spread among both the fore and aft sides of the ship, at both ventral and dorsal surfaces. This makes the Akira the Starfleet ship with the most torp tubes (the larger Sovereign-class Battleship only has ten). It's an effective long-range bombardment vessel, with a shuttle bay in the fore and aft connected across the center to form a fighter launch deck to expedite Peregrine-class fighter launches and retrieval, doubling its role as a fighter carrier as well. It's one major weakness is poor aft coverage of point defense phasers.
I have to agree, I've always been fascinated by the Romulans.
Rohan on
...and I thought of how all those people died, and what a good death that is. That nobody can blame you for it, because everyone else died along with you, and it is the fault of none, save those who did the killing.
JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
edited June 2007
Watching the original show on DVD has really renewed my appreciation for the plain old 1701. It's not elegant, it's not 'badass', and it's clearly kludged-together from, like, Jungian icons floating around in the 1960s mass unconscious ("a flying saucer...with fins!") but it just radiates plucky optimism and can-do spirit.
JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
edited June 2007
Like the awkward teen ham-radio enthusiasts who loved it!
Seriously, it completely bypasses my aesthestic sense and just evokes some sort of sense-memory of Boy Scouts and The Right Stuff and astronaut ice cream.
Like the awkward teen ham-radio enthusiasts who loved it!
Seriously, it completely bypasses my aesthestic sense and just evokes some sort of sense-memory of Boy Scouts and The Right Stuff and astronaut ice cream.
Assuming that means the TNG one (not as big of a Star Trek geek as I could be), limed. Honestly, TNG was my favorite, with Voyager as a distant second mostly because Janeway is essentially Han Solo with a vagina.
I've been watching the Animated Series on DVD and I actually enjoy it quite a bit. It's really nice how they got all of the actual actors (minus Checkov) to record their voices for the series. I read Alan Dean Foster's novelization of many of the episodes while I was in grade school, and it's cool to see them animated.
My favorite? The episode where the crew meets Lucifer. And saves him.
Assuming that means the TNG one (not as big of a Star Trek geek as I could be), limed. Honestly, TNG was my favorite, with Voyager as a distant second mostly because Janeway is essentially Han Solo with a vagina.
Enterprise-D was the TNG series enterprise, Enterprise-E was the enterprise in the last three movies, which was more elongated and looked more militaristic. I guess that's why I sorta prefer the Galaxy class D - seemed more stately and, well, Star Trek.
Although the designed (but never shown on screen) Sovereign class separation with the battle mode looked like a real thing of beauty, rather than just a headless ship with the galaxy class:
Posts
There's a dish, too: remember in First Contact when the Borg needed to modify the deflector dish to assembled an interplexing beacon to single for 21st-century Borg backup?
Yes, they did call it an "interplexing beacon."
Yeah, it's really not. It's part of the idealism: no one has to stay if they don't want to.
I remember Picard/Riker/Various others saying "damn" and "hell" quite often. And while I don't recall any specific scenes of aliens taking care of business, I imagine that Worf must've dropped a deuce most righteous from time to time.
And while we're at it, how is it possible for some piece of technology to translate languages it's never encountered before almost automatically?
And how come almost all the species are just minor variations on humanity?
And why don't you ever see anyone fuck?
Oh, right. Because it's a TV show, and there are certain legal and budgetary limitations imposed on it.
That's part of why the show is interesting - it's a universe where the Federation and its officers are powerful/effective enough to bluntly apply their ideals without compromise and still have a chance of success and survival.
However, there are times when naked idealism is absurd, and I'm sure Picard would have regretted his decision had he witnessed the downfall and destruction of the Federation and its billions and billions of inhabitants. His decision would not have been admirable had the virus been the only possible way to defeat the Borg, for example.
Regardless, the Federation is more interesting if its movers and shakers must struggle with their principles and the decision might go either way. If Picard had been in charge of DS9, that Romulan diplomat would have gone unmolested, I'm pretty sure. That made it all the more surprising when Sisko chose to bend the rules. Suddenly viewers are uncertain as to whether these pillars of justice will persevere and stick to their principles like they've always done, or if they'll put the survival of their people and the Federation ahead of those principles. I like that uncertainty, and I like the contrast between Picard and Sisko. Not everyone is a Picard, after all; not everyone can stick to their principles and still manage to come out both alive and successful. I think people like Picard (and of course Kirk and the like) would be the exceptional individuals in an already exceptional society.
That was a mistype by me. My computer at work has significant text lag and I often don't see typos until I click "submit."
The Romulan War wasn't in Enterprise, and how you can make that assumption when I clearly labelled the list "ideas rejected by Star Trek people" is beyond me. The Romulan War is a nuclear war Spock mentioned on TOS as taking place a hundred years prior, between Earth and Romulus. It became one of the key events in Star Trek history and led to the founding of the Federation and to centuries of Romulans resenting us. It's been alluded to many times, but never seen, and would make a great setting for a series.
This is a fantastic idea and one that I hope someone, somewhere addresses in a visual entertainment format soon. (I phrase it that way because I'm not so sure that it's the basis of an entire Star Trek series, although a recurring theme or miniseries would work. As long as starships trekking through space are involved.
Fourth-season Enterprise was starting to address this a little, I think, at least moving in that direction. And yes, Enterprise was awful at retconning left and right, but at this point I think any attempt to show the Romulan War will necessarily involve major retconning.
Which is something to be thankful for, I guess. Given how poorly the rest of the series was done, I don't want to imagine how they would have fucked over the Romulan War. It would probably have been a five-minute fire-fight, then focused on T'Pol and Hoshi getting naked and rubbing anti-phaser-burn gel on each other for the rest of the episode.
Richy, now I'm totally certain that Paramount is run by evil time-traveling Nazis sent to 21st century Earth with express purpose of destroying the Star Trek franchise for their own nefarious ends.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I don't know much about Dr. Who though I just started to watch that show
You can't really qualify "long over" in a time war, if you think about it
And then if you think about it some more you get a headache
Regardless, Dr. Who has not covered the Time War yet, they've just had the Doctor say it's happened and what the result was. It apparently happened between Eccleston and the Doctor before him.
Two classic ships there, the glorious Enterprise-A and the lovely Excelsior.
Not many people seem to like the Ambassador class, but it's one of my favourites.
C'mon... who doesn't like this ship?
I love the Prometheus. Such a sexy design.
I still play Bridge Commander to this day, and I'm looking forward to upgrading my pc as it means I can add that many more ships to the quick battles. Can't do anything about the bugs and constant crashing, but eh... it's as close as this geek will ever get. As someone who plays the game often and has watched the modding scene over the years, it's given me an appreciation of the bridges from the ships. My favourite (although the Sovereign's comes in at a close second) is the Enterprise-A bridge from The Undiscovered Country. It's so... atmospheric, and much more believable than any of the others.
Edit - I realise that the ship up there isn't actually the Enterprise-A, it's the original. "Give me the Enterprise, registry number NCC-1701. No bloody A, B, C or D."
Nothing's forgotten, nothing is ever forgotten
Someone find some good pictures of them please, I'm at work.
I couldn't find a good one of the old bird of prey.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Also the whole flying saucer thing.
"If I ever woke up with a dead hooker in my hotel room, Matt would be the first person I'd call."
www.PatriceOneal.com
glorious
Oh my, yes.</farnsworth>
Nothing's forgotten, nothing is ever forgotten
The Akira-class heavy cruiser has always been my favorite ship. It has eleven torp tubes spread among both the fore and aft sides of the ship, at both ventral and dorsal surfaces. This makes the Akira the Starfleet ship with the most torp tubes (the larger Sovereign-class Battleship only has ten). It's an effective long-range bombardment vessel, with a shuttle bay in the fore and aft connected across the center to form a fighter launch deck to expedite Peregrine-class fighter launches and retrieval, doubling its role as a fighter carrier as well. It's one major weakness is poor aft coverage of point defense phasers.
I'll admit it, I'm gay for Romulans. Their ships and symbols and interfaces are art. Art of tyranny and war.
The Galaxy class is a thing of majestic beauty.
Nothing's forgotten, nothing is ever forgotten
Seriously, it completely bypasses my aesthestic sense and just evokes some sort of sense-memory of Boy Scouts and The Right Stuff and astronaut ice cream.
Me too!
Plus, the new Romulan logo is hot.
Assuming that means the TNG one (not as big of a Star Trek geek as I could be), limed. Honestly, TNG was my favorite, with Voyager as a distant second mostly because Janeway is essentially Han Solo with a vagina.
http://www.thomasmodels.com/gallery/rombop.jpg
On the other hand, the Doomsday Machine did look uncannily like a giant poo. So there were ups and downs.
I've been watching the Animated Series on DVD and I actually enjoy it quite a bit. It's really nice how they got all of the actual actors (minus Checkov) to record their voices for the series. I read Alan Dean Foster's novelization of many of the episodes while I was in grade school, and it's cool to see them animated.
My favorite? The episode where the crew meets Lucifer. And saves him.
Enterprise-D was the TNG series enterprise, Enterprise-E was the enterprise in the last three movies, which was more elongated and looked more militaristic. I guess that's why I sorta prefer the Galaxy class D - seemed more stately and, well, Star Trek.
Although the designed (but never shown on screen) Sovereign class separation with the battle mode looked like a real thing of beauty, rather than just a headless ship with the galaxy class:
http://www.lcarscom.net/fsd/art/images/dee-7.jpg
I always deemed it the "giant space cigar"
But I really enjoy the random space anamolies/nebulas/unknown things in TOS. The giant space ameoba in "The Immunity Syndrome" is classic.
If you haven't seen it google "star trek after dark" for some good laughs. (I'd link, but th stupid filter at work...)