Writing music for band

Yehoshua

Well, I'm in a band (rock, blues, and jazz fusion) where there are two possible instrument setups:

Lead Guitar
Rhythm Guitar
Drums
Piano
Vocals (optional, part of the problem)

and

Rhythm Guitar
Drums
Piano
Saxophone
(maybe vocals, but far less likely with saxophone)

When trying to write music for these setups, I usually come to two problems. One is that, using both rhythm guitar and piano, I tend to have a problem working out how to do chords in the rhythm section. What I've been doing is seventh chords on the piano while at the same time guitar is playing power chords (unless the seventh chord has an altered fifth - that complicates things further), but I find this sound is getting kind of boring. I've contemplated doing that thing where guitar plays eighth notes constantly, but it doesn't really work well if the music isn't swinging.

Another problem with that same setup is writing both vocal parts and lead guitar parts in the same song. It tends to kind of sound cluttered or boring. The one solution I have so far is to just have them be the same notes, save for some guitar licks, but that is no fun.

My problem with the second setup is the saxophone Midi on Finale is nigh unbearable, but I don't think you could help me with that problem.

Any help with these problems is kindly appreciated.

Mr Pink

One thing you might want to try is having the lead guitar 'converse' with the vocals. Not speak at the same time as them exactly, but almost answer to them. I've heard bands do this well and it comes across as really neat and not at all cluttered.

Are you maybe trying to have every instrument playing at all times? I could see how that would sound messy.

ChopperDave

Man, I don't know how you can even attempt to do rock, blue or jazz without a bassist. That's pretty ballsy.

Anyway, I don't have much experience writing songs myself, but I've performed a few originals and covers for my band. A few comments:

Piano and rhythm guitar make a very good combination for alt-rock sounding songs. There's really two ways you can go about making them go together, which are pretty well illustrated in two of my favorite songs (you can youtube them both):

1) Elliott Smith - Baby Britain. The combination here is pretty simple: piano plays triads and fills, guitar plays eights to accentuate each note. Sounds like you've already figured this one out. You should pay attention to the midsection of this song, though, because it might give you some good ideas for fun things your guitarist can do in songs like these.

2) Kings of Convienence - Misread. This is a group whose records you should give a pretty good listen to, because they do a lot of songs with piano and two rhythm guitarists (if your lead is willing to do a little of that). Anyway, this song does a good job of showing the other way rhythm can interact with piano (and another rhythm guitar, for that matter) without competing for attention - fingerpicking archipelagos.

Here's the bad news, though:

Piano, lead, and rhythm is a pretty ugly combination. I've never heard it done well. The problem is that you really can't have all three in the same song without them competing for attention. A well-written song with piano and rhythm guitar, for example, tends to play a balance where both instruments get a little attention, and one is dominant. In the case of Baby Britain, you have piano being the dominant rhythm instrument (with the guitar dropping out entirely in some parts), and in Misread just the opposite happens. When you throw a lead guitar into the mix, though, he'll do what a lead guitar is supposed to do - solo. And that either sounds really cluttered in songs like these, or unnecessarily draws the ear away from either the piano or the rhythym guitar, which is the unifying instrument.

Same thing with jazz (though I don't have a whole lot of experience with it). There's a lot of cool jazz with rhythm guitar setting the base of the song: see Django Reinhardt. Of course, two guitars is really what blues is about. And piano is also good for setting a base, but only in songs without a rhythm guitar. You really can't have BOTH a rhythm piano and guitar in a jazz song though, or else it just sounds too cluttered. It's like with rock/pop songs, but just the opposite: jazz/blues is about lead musicians, and when you have a bunch of rhythm you're drawing unnecessary attention away from the main event, so to speak. I can't think of situations where it's even good to have a jazz pianist, a lead guitarist, and a rhythm guitarist, cause that's still pretty cluttered (though better).

Anyway, point of the post is this: you should consider asking the lead guitarist to play back-up rhythm for the non-jazz songs, because that sounds good for mellow, bluesy pop like the Kings of Conveniance. Though then you might have yourself a problem including the drummer...

And on the flipside, either you or the rhythm guitarist is going to have to sit out on the jazzy songs, unless you can figure out a way to make two of you leads and one of you rhythm, and sound good. I can't help you with that, really, I don't know jazz.

Also, keep in mind that in both the songs I referred you to, it's really rare to have all three instruments playing at once, and not uncommon for one to drop out for an entire section of the song. You don't HAVE to have everyone playing all at the same time throughout a given song.

A-Rod

Bass and Drums are your meat and potatoes when it comes to rock and jazz....look into getting a bass in there, otherwise its going to sound "empty"

Yehoshua

Thanks for the advice dudes. Just to clear a few things up:

We actually do have a bassist. I just forgot to mention him because I'm actually pretty good at writing decent bass lines.

Also, for some jazz songs I've heard that the guitar plays eighth note chords over and over again while the piano comps freely. I think this only really works in bigger bands, but I'm not quite sure, as I haven't heard any good examples, besides in a big band.

But yeah, I think having one instrument sit out sometimes is just something we'll have to do. Thanks.

XenosX_

One potential problem with writing music for a song which has both a rhythm guitar and piano is that you might be writing for each as though it was the only rhythm instrument playing (obviously aside bass and drums). You might need to loosen the parts up and make them much simpler. Case in point, the piano and guitar parts on the song 'Money' by Pink Floyd. I can play the bass part and piano part and guitar part for the verses and chorus by myself on piano; that's how simple they are. But together, they act like a single rhythm instrument that just has a bunch of different sounds.

As for lead guitar and lead vocals in the same song, I would definitely suggest either taking turns playing stuff, or playing unison stuff like Hendrix would do with himself. That requires a bit of practice though.

PorkChopSandwiches

I would say the easiest way to work out rhythms between a pianist and a rhythm guitarist would be to just let them experiment with it. Basically, you've got two different instruments serving the same function, so they need to figure out how to interact with each other, not play along with each other. You could also consider taking sections and placing one in the foreground and one in the background. Contrast is going to be your friend here.

What version of Finale are you using? Do you have access to Garrison Personal Orchestra? Are the pieces of music simply to listen to on your computer, because you can probably live with an irritating saxophone sound on the computer that would translate to a better sound in real life (unless the saxophone player is terrible, in which case you could just shoot him.)

Bob The Monkey

Rhythm guitar + Piano is a pretty horrible combination. They're both rhythm instruments that sit in essentially the same frequency range. I'd recommend dropping one or the other, although by all means you might be able to make it work.

Waxford

Lead guitar, rhythm guitar, and piano can often get a little bit cluttered. This however is fairly simply resolved. Space! Often times what happens is everyone feels like they have to be playing something. The notes you DON'T play are equally as important as the notes you play. It's OK for one instrument to take a break. It's OK for all but one instrument to take a break. As a matter of fact, it sounds GREAT when utilized correctly.