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Made in China....

stormcstormc Registered User regular
edited August 2007 in Debate and/or Discourse
Products having made from china have been getting a lot of flaks lately, from the new zealand where the clothing caught fire, Mattel's paint leaded toys, to the past of milk powder and various other products.
The China TV station made a show "Belive in the China Product" and have a quality watchdog criticizing the "demonizing China's products."

"Personally, I believe it is new trend in trade protectionism. Although recalls are necessary, it is unfair to decide that all products made in China are unqualified," Li Changjiang, director of the General Administration of Quality Supervision, Inspection and Quarantine

http://news.aol.com/story/_a/china-tv-airs-shows-defending-products/n20070820120809990032

Are the media and us as consumers really demonizing china's product ? given by fact it is very difficult or near impossible to evade all made in china's product.
Shouldnt the China government and industry be more self aware on the safety of their products

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<3, Echo
stormc on
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    LondonBridgeLondonBridge __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2007
    I work for a Chinese owned ISP. These fuckers are so cheap it's not even funny. I'm glad China is in the spotlight and shows what people are paying for.

    LondonBridge on
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    IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited August 2007
    ...When has Made in China/Taiwan/Etc ever NOT meant "Oh yeah that's utter crap?"

    I mean, post-British Empire.

    Incenjucar on
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    ...When has Made in China/Taiwan/Etc ever NOT meant "Oh yeah that's utter crap?"

    I mean, post-British Empire.

    I've found a lot of Taiwanese electronics to be decent.

    It's only when you get into things like clothing and children's toys that you hit the real crap.

    EDIT: That's probably not a fair use of the word "only."

    mcdermott on
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    ege02ege02 __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2007
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    ...When has Made in China/Taiwan/Etc ever NOT meant "Oh yeah that's utter crap?"

    I mean, post-British Empire.

    So what? Japanese electronics and cars started out shitty too, back when they were "stealing" technology from the USA (lol!). Now they are really high quality.

    ege02 on
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    ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited August 2007
    ege02 wrote: »
    So what? Japanese electronics and cars started out shitty too, back when they were "stealing" technology from the USA (lol!). Now they are really high quality.

    Depends. Japanese electronics are about on par with American. You find a lot of good stuff, and a lot of crap, even across the same brand. Sony is a great example - their products range from awesome to shit.

    ElJeffe on
    I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
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    Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    China is perfectly capable of and willing to produce extremely high-quality products (digital cameras, iPods, etcetera), so long as that is what the buyer demands and is willing to pay for.

    Loren Michael on
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    nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    ege02 wrote: »
    So what? Japanese electronics and cars started out shitty too, back when they were "stealing" technology from the USA (lol!). Now they are really high quality.

    Depends. Japanese electronics are about on par with American. You find a lot of good stuff, and a lot of crap, even across the same brand. Sony is a great example - their products range from awesome to shit.

    Japanese stuff has lsot some ground lately. The European and South Asian electronics markets have taken off. Sony is a good example here. they used to be considered a top shelf brand. Now they're about average

    They still and always will own the pro video market though. There's realyl no competition there except maybe panasonic.

    nexuscrawler on
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    Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    I hate environment freaks, but China could really use some halfway decent environmental laws.

    Fuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud on
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    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    ege02 wrote: »
    So what? Japanese electronics and cars started out shitty too, back when they were "stealing" technology from the USA (lol!). Now they are really high quality.

    Depends. Japanese electronics are about on par with American. You find a lot of good stuff, and a lot of crap, even across the same brand. Sony is a great example - their products range from awesome to shit.

    Japanese stuff has lsot some ground lately. The European and South Asian electronics markets have taken off. Sony is a good example here. they used to be considered a top shelf brand. Now they're about average

    They still and always will own the pro video market though. There's realyl no competition there except maybe panasonic.

    I wouldn't say that, considering how much of a splash the RED ONE camera made.

    AngelHedgie on
    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
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    nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Well RED is still more or less vaporware. It'll rock if it exists though!

    nexuscrawler on
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    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Well RED is still more or less vaporware. It'll rock if it exists though!

    I thought they've actually demoed the camera in the real world?

    AngelHedgie on
    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
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    The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited August 2007
    China is perfectly capable of and willing to produce extremely high-quality products (digital cameras, iPods, etcetera), so long as that is what the buyer demands and is willing to pay for.

    'sactly. Bid for cheap shit, get cheap shit. This year was the first time our state fair didn't have to pull any of the showbags due to unsafe toys. I doubt the manufacturers decided to shape up without any external pressure whatsoever.

    I think it needs to be pushed more that demanding (much) cheap(er) goods for you and yours inevitably means screwing over people elsewhere as well as screwing yourself over. When companies cut standards, you pay in terms of lowered product safety, the plant workers pay in exposure to unsafe chems/poor conditions/poor working hours (and I guarantee that the workers in the plant that produced the lead-ridden toys are far worse off healthwise than Little Timmy in Minneapolis who nibbled on his toy car once), and nearby residents and the surrounding plant environment pay when the manufacturers skimp on disposal and emissions regulation. Good things cost.

    The Cat on
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    The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited August 2007
    I hate environment freaks, but China could really use some halfway decent environmental laws.

    They've made huge strides in the last few years. For all the catching up they have to do (and its a lot, their urban atmo quality is much like western cities in the late 19th/early 20th century), their government actually has a much more visible committment to environmental issues than most.

    The Cat on
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    GlyphGlyph Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    I work for a Chinese owned ISP. These fuckers are so cheap it's not even funny. I'm glad China is in the spotlight and shows what people are paying for.

    But aren't corporations like Mattel just as responsible for not paying closer scrutiny to the quality of the production to which they outsource? If it wasn't China, wouldn't it be some other source of cheap labor and manufacturing?

    Glyph on
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    IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited August 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    I hate environment freaks, but China could really use some halfway decent environmental laws.

    They've made huge strides in the last few years. For all the catching up they have to do (and its a lot, their urban atmo quality is much like western cities in the late 19th/early 20th century), their government actually has a much more visible committment to environmental issues than most.

    True that. They've basically progressed in five years what took the US a hundred.

    As critical as I am of China's past behavior, I'm rather impressed with how fast they're shaping up.

    It's nice knowing that their becoming the next center of the world isn't guaranteed to be a bad thing.

    Incenjucar on
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Glyph wrote: »
    I work for a Chinese owned ISP. These fuckers are so cheap it's not even funny. I'm glad China is in the spotlight and shows what people are paying for.

    But aren't corporations like Mattel just as responsible for not paying closer scrutiny to the quality of the production to which they outsource? If it wasn't China, wouldn't it be some other source of cheap labor and manufacturing?

    More so, actually. Mattel, in my mind, bears most of the responsibility. They choose the contractor, they set the price, so really they determine the level of quality. As Loren said, plenty of extremely high quality goods are made in China as well...they just don't cost $1.97 at Wal-Mart.

    And yeah, if it wasn't China it'd be somewhere else. The world has no shortage of poor people who live in countries with lax environmental controls...China just happens to be the most convenient for now.

    mcdermott on
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    The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited August 2007
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    True that. They've basically progressed in five years what took the US a hundred.

    As critical as I am of China's past behavior, I'm rather impressed with how fast they're shaping up.
    Being able to shoot the corrupt seems to help :rotate:
    It's nice knowing that their becoming the next center of the world isn't guaranteed to be a bad thing.

    Oh, I dunno about that, its not all roses over there. Their workplace culture is pretty rough - little labour protection, you're expected to suck up to the boss by buying them shit and doing their chores, etc. The stories I hear from my flatmate... she really doesn't want to go back, although I'm thinking she might just because she's having trouble meeting a bloke over here. Anyway, there's some amazing stories coming out of the place, but as many amazing-D: as amazing-:D.

    The Cat on
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    Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    True that. They've basically progressed in five years what took the US a hundred.

    As critical as I am of China's past behavior, I'm rather impressed with how fast they're shaping up.
    Being able to shoot the corrupt seems to help :rotate:

    My hatred of capital punishment is battling it out with my disgust of people who are as corrupt as that Chinese official was.

    Loren Michael on
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    Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    True that. They've basically progressed in five years what took the US a hundred.

    As critical as I am of China's past behavior, I'm rather impressed with how fast they're shaping up.
    Being able to shoot the corrupt seems to help :rotate:

    My hatred of capital punishment is battling it out with my disgust of people who are as corrupt as that Chinese official was.
    Just say "'No!' to Sadistic Impulses!"

    Fuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud on
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    IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited August 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    Oh, I dunno about that, its not all roses over there. Their workplace culture is pretty rough - little labour protection, you're expected to suck up to the boss by buying them shit and doing their chores, etc. The stories I hear from my flatmate... she really doesn't want to go back, although I'm thinking she might just because she's having trouble meeting a bloke over here. Anyway, there's some amazing stories coming out of the place, but as many amazing-D: as amazing-:D.

    Like I said, not -guaranteed- :P.

    They're being fairly progressive considering the period of development they're in, and willfully so, and that's a good thing. It, of course, does not prevent them from reenacting The Jungle.

    Incenjucar on
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    GlyphGlyph Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Glyph wrote: »
    I work for a Chinese owned ISP. These fuckers are so cheap it's not even funny. I'm glad China is in the spotlight and shows what people are paying for.

    But aren't corporations like Mattel just as responsible for not paying closer scrutiny to the quality of the production to which they outsource? If it wasn't China, wouldn't it be some other source of cheap labor and manufacturing?

    More so, actually. Mattel, in my mind, bears most of the responsibility. They choose the contractor, they set the price, so really they determine the level of quality. As Loren said, plenty of extremely high quality goods are made in China as well...they just don't cost $1.97 at Wal-Mart.

    And yeah, if it wasn't China it'd be somewhere else. The world has no shortage of poor people who live in countries with lax environmental controls...China just happens to be the most convenient for now.

    And it's not like some of our companies don't sell their more dubious products to countries with laxer regulations.

    Glyph on
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    monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    I hate environment freaks, but China could really use some halfway decent environmental laws.

    They've made huge strides in the last few years. For all the catching up they have to do (and its a lot, their urban atmo quality is much like western cities in the late 19th/early 20th century), their government actually has a much more visible committment to environmental issues than most.

    I just hope they keep up that committment after the games. Making your house look spic and span for guests doesn't mean it won't fall back into an utter shithole a week after they've gone.

    moniker on
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    stormcstormc Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Glyph wrote: »
    I work for a Chinese owned ISP. These fuckers are so cheap it's not even funny. I'm glad China is in the spotlight and shows what people are paying for.

    But aren't corporations like Mattel just as responsible for not paying closer scrutiny to the quality of the production to which they outsource? If it wasn't China, wouldn't it be some other source of cheap labor and manufacturing?

    More so, actually. Mattel, in my mind, bears most of the responsibility. They choose the contractor, they set the price, so really they determine the level of quality. As Loren said, plenty of extremely high quality goods are made in China as well...they just don't cost $1.97 at Wal-Mart.

    And yeah, if it wasn't China it'd be somewhere else. The world has no shortage of poor people who live in countries with lax environmental controls...China just happens to be the most convenient for now.


    Maybe its me with that image, but looking across the china industries and hearing of its briberies (even with the shooting of corrupt officials) I feel that even if Mattel sets a higher price, theres no way to regulate that quality of the raw material was observed.
    I stand beliving that both parties must be responsible but china current stand is more like "yeah we export out unsafe products, but its the fault of the foregin industries and only the foregin industries"

    stormc on
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    <3, Echo
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    The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited August 2007
    I don't think the Chinese manufacturers actually said that...

    The Cat on
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    The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited August 2007
    moniker wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    I hate environment freaks, but China could really use some halfway decent environmental laws.

    They've made huge strides in the last few years. For all the catching up they have to do (and its a lot, their urban atmo quality is much like western cities in the late 19th/early 20th century), their government actually has a much more visible committment to environmental issues than most.

    I just hope they keep up that committment after the games. Making your house look spic and span for guests doesn't mean it won't fall back into an utter shithole a week after they've gone.

    Yeah, I'm not sure about that either. I mean, on one hand, they're losing 750,000 people a year to respiratory illness, and that's got to screw with the workforce a bit since most of them would be in urban areas, but OTOH, population control...

    The Cat on
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    stormc wrote: »
    Maybe its me with that image, but looking across the china industries and hearing of its briberies (even with the shooting of corrupt officials) I feel that even if Mattel sets a higher price, theres no way to regulate that quality of the raw material was observed.

    If you set a higher price, you can actually demand higher quality (and verify it through both on-site inspections and, well, looking at the shit they deliver). Yeah, there's a risk that somebody will just deliver shitty stuff and pocket the difference...but they'll only do it once before you switch to a different operation. When you actually offer a big contract for high-priced goods (and, presumably, higher margins for the manufacturers) you offer an incentive to deliver a quality product...shit-mills have no problem finding people who want cheap crap made at $.06 a piece. Contracts for shit like, say, iPods are a little harder to come by. You don't want to lose them.
    Yeah, I'm not sure about that either. I mean, on one hand, they're losing 750,000 people a year to respiratory illness, and that's got to screw with the workforce a bit since most of them would be in urban areas, but OTOH, population control...

    I doubt there's a shortage of people looking to move from the impoverished countryside to the city, in the hopes of sending money back to help their family or some shit.

    mcdermott on
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    Al_watAl_wat Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Yeah China doesn't care about losing any of their population really.

    The Chinese State owned tobacco company tells their citizens that smoking cigarettes is good for their health.

    Al_wat on
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    The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited August 2007
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I doubt there's a shortage of people looking to move from the impoverished countryside to the city, in the hopes of sending money back to help their family or some shit.
    Oh, for sure, but its a waste of investment in training to have your accountant drop dead of pneumonia. I actually wonder how those rural villages are coping too - some of them are pretty much empty of anyone young enough to bail, and yet those left behind are the people doing most of the food production, with little replacement potential. Agriculture's not nearly so mechanised there yet.

    The Cat on
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I doubt there's a shortage of people looking to move from the impoverished countryside to the city, in the hopes of sending money back to help their family or some shit.
    Oh, for sure, but its a waste of investment in training to have your accountant drop dead of pneumonia. I actually wonder how those rural villages are coping too - some of them are pretty much empty of anyone young enough to bail, and yet those left behind are the people doing most of the food production, with little replacement potential. Agriculture's not nearly so mechanised there yet.
    I guess a lack of food production just reinforces the population control. Really, when you get down to it, China's pretty fucked up. It'll be interesting to see what goes on in that country over the next twenty years or so.

    Also, because I haven't done my obligatory link to The Onion lately, I give you this.

    mcdermott on
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    The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited August 2007
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I guess a lack of food production just reinforces the population control. Really, when you get down to it, China's pretty fucked up. It'll be interesting to see what goes on in that country over the next twenty years or so.

    Also, because I haven't done my obligatory link to The Onion lately, I give you this.

    :lol:

    well, they've got something like 70 million males with statistically no chance of starting a family, so I'm willing to bet that Ye Olde Civil Uprising might eventually be the result...

    The Cat on
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    MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I guess a lack of food production just reinforces the population control. Really, when you get down to it, China's pretty fucked up. It'll be interesting to see what goes on in that country over the next twenty years or so.

    Also, because I haven't done my obligatory link to The Onion lately, I give you this.

    :lol:

    well, they've got something like 70 million males with statistically no chance of starting a family, so I'm willing to bet that Ye Olde Civil Uprising might eventually be the result...

    China to perfect sex bots in ~10 yrs. Civilization to end in ~11yrs.

    edit: This can't be more than a bump in the road for the Chinese. There's no way people here will give up their cheap trinkets and reasonably priced electronics. There'll be alot of hand wringing and news stories, and maybe an investigation into a factory in a province no one's ever heard of. This isn't life or death...

    Malkor on
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    GlyphGlyph Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    stormc wrote: »
    I stand beliving that both parties must be responsible but china current stand is more like "yeah we export out unsafe products, but its the fault of the foregin industries and only the foregin industries"

    When exactly did China tell you this?

    Glyph on
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    sp1ttlesp1ttle Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Recently my dad was forced to work on a Sunday for the first time (he didn't mind, since he was getting 2.5 times the overtime pay). Apparently what was happening was that a certain product was being manufactured in Japan, Korea, and China. When the product recalls broke out, the company that purchased the product immediately cancelled any deliveries from China, even though my dad said they were perfectly fine. As a result, the stateside factories had to pick up the slack.

    sp1ttle on
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    Shazkar ShadowstormShazkar Shadowstorm Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    I hate environment freaks, but China could really use some halfway decent environmental laws.

    They've made huge strides in the last few years. For all the catching up they have to do (and its a lot, their urban atmo quality is much like western cities in the late 19th/early 20th century), their government actually has a much more visible committment to environmental issues than most.

    Too bad it is too late to save the river dolphin. Dead. Extinct. Poof.

    Shazkar Shadowstorm on
    poo
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    nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Well RED is still more or less vaporware. It'll rock if it exists though!

    I thought they've actually demoed the camera in the real world?

    They demod some stuff shot with it and relesed some vague wokflow stuff but they're yet to release any real specs on the camera

    Also anyone hear Mattell is gettin sued for the lead paint scare? People are saying they should pay for testing for any kids exposed to the toys. Might end up as a class action.

    nexuscrawler on
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    GorakGorak Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    There's definitely an element of "get what you pay for" involved here.

    When China develops stronger labour/environmental regulations and quality control, the prices go up and the factories move to the next country with cheap labour and lax regulations. That's how the factories ended up in China in the first place.

    Gorak on
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    Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous Blame this on the misfortune of your birth. New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    I hate environment freaks, but China could really use some halfway decent environmental laws.

    They've made huge strides in the last few years. For all the catching up they have to do (and its a lot, their urban atmo quality is much like western cities in the late 19th/early 20th century), their government actually has a much more visible committment to environmental issues than most.

    Too bad it is too late to save the river dolphin. Dead. Extinct. Poof.
    Not to mention, aren't a lot of those "environmental strides" pretty much intended entirely for the Olympics?

    Der Waffle Mous on
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    WHY wrote: »
    Too bad it is too late to save the river dolphin. Dead. Extinct. Poof.
    Not to mention, aren't a lot of those "environmental strides" pretty much intended entirely for the Olympics?[/QUOTE]

    Yeah. But I think awareness is also being raised in the US (and elsewhere) regarding this as well...and people are (slowly) starting to care about what kind of environmental regulations the products they buy are made under.

    mcdermott on
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    emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Is it just me or does anyone else get the sense that Americans are being groomed to hate China through subtle attacks by the media. First the toothpaste then the toys then the bad air over the Olympic stadium then the plane exploding - I haven't seen a positive story in the news about China in a looong time. The average Joe is developing an impression that China is incompetent and will harm us Americans through its incompetence. Is this spin or am I just being paranoid?

    emnmnme on
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    monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Is it just me or does anyone else get the sense that Americans are being groomed to hate China through subtle attacks by the media. First the toothpaste then the toys then the bad air over the Olympic stadium then the plane exploding - I haven't seen a positive story in the news about China in a looong time. The average Joe is developing an impression that China is incompetent and will harm us Americans through its incompetence. Is this spin or am I just being paranoid?

    No, paranoid is when you watch people claiming that this is an intentional and nefarious plot to attack us biologically, rather than simple corruption and/or incompetence. Like how those pigs that tainted the spinach with e coli were actually freemasons.

    moniker on
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