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Manhunt 2's ban has been appealed

CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
edited December 2007 in Games and Technology
http://www.gamersreports.com/news/6718/bbfc-rejects-revised-version-of-manhunt-2/
The BBFC has rejected a revised version of the video game Manhunt 2. This follows the rejection of the original version of the game in June. The distributor had set in motion an appeal to the Video Appeals Committee against that decision, and this was suspended while the revised version was considered for classification. David Cooke, Director of the BBFC said:

“We recognise that the distributor has made changes to the game, but we do not consider that these go far enough to address our concerns about the original version. The impact of the revisions on the bleakness and callousness of tone, or the essential nature of the gameplay, is clearly insufficient. There has been a reduction in the visual detail in some of the ‘execution kills’, but in others they retain their original visceral and casually sadistic nature.
God damn it. What is wrong with a game having bleakness and callousness of tone?

Couscous on
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    DarkWarriorDarkWarrior __BANNED USERS regular
    edited October 2007
    Hopefully they'll appeal it this time rather than editing it since the edits they've done have already fucked it up from what I've read.

    DarkWarrior on
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    The Black HunterThe Black Hunter The key is a minimum of compromise, and a simple, unimpeachable reason to existRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Hostel is out on DVD and has a much larger audience that Manhunt does, and it is just a torture fest.

    The Black Hunter on
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    DirtchamberDirtchamber Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Hostel is out on DVD and has a much larger audience that Manhunt does, and it is just a torture fest.

    Yes, but videogames are evil.

    Dirtchamber on
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    Big ClassyBig Classy Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Long live the BBFC. :x

    Big Classy on
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    Jam WarriorJam Warrior Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Hostel is out on DVD and has a much larger audience that Manhunt does, and it is just a torture fest.

    Watching Hostel is passive, playing Manhunt is active. No matter your feelings on the Manhunt bannination issue you must be able to see that there is a huge difference here.

    Jam Warrior on
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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Hostel is out on DVD and has a much larger audience that Manhunt does, and it is just a torture fest.

    Watching Hostel is passive, playing Manhunt is active. No matter your feelings on the Manhunt bannination issue you must be able to see that there is a huge difference here.

    BBFC has said before that gaming is less immersive for people than watching movies.

    Couscous on
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    SzechuanosaurusSzechuanosaurus Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2007
    Hostel is out on DVD and has a much larger audience that Manhunt does, and it is just a torture fest.

    The difference is, neither the audience - nor the protagonists - are the ones doing the torturing in Hostel. Although I wouldn't be surprised if sadists still got the same sexual kicks from both. Manhunt implies a pro-torture stance while Hostel implies an anti-torture stance. Although the protagonist (and the player) in Manhunt is technically forced to commit acts which he doesn't really want to, I'd guess the moral lesson is somewhat too obscured for the BBFC to be satisfied (ironic considering most reviewers of Hostel suspect that the director probably enjoys creating torture scenes enough to probably be considered pro-torture).

    Szechuanosaurus on
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    GyralGyral Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    You know, after the first "banning" I figured this was all an issue of Rockstar trying to drum up free publicity via controversy, but now it's just a case of not giving a shit anymore. They should just polish the game off, shove it out in territories that'll sell it and be done with it. The longer it stews, the more edited it'll have to be.

    Gyral on
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    SzechuanosaurusSzechuanosaurus Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2007
    The UK release of the first Manhunt was so luke-warm I half wonder why they even care about releasing the sequel over here. But every time the BBFC bans a revision, the number of potential sales probably increases exponentially, so ultimately they could ride this train for another six months or so, release a turd on a silicone platter with gameplay consisting of frolicking around a day-glo paddock patting bunnies on the head and have a chart topping release for a month or so where previously they'd be lucky to have got a top twenty slot.

    Szechuanosaurus on
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    urahonkyurahonky Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    The UK release of the first Manhunt was so luke-warm I half wonder why they even care about releasing the sequel over here. But every time the BBFC bans a revision, the number of potential sales probably increases exponentially, so ultimately they could ride this train for another six months or so, release a turd on a silicone platter with gameplay consisting of frolicking around a day-glo paddock patting bunnies on the head and have a chart topping release for a month or so where previously they'd be lucky to have got a top twenty slot.

    I'm already pre-ordering the game due to your description of the revised game. Thank you.

    urahonky on
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    DodgeBlanDodgeBlan PSN: dodgeblanRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    DUR IMA TUFF ON BADDIE VIDEO GAMES IMA SAVE YER KIDS

    DodgeBlan on
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    bongibongi regular
    edited October 2007
    i like to think this is just the bbfc's way of saying "this game is so shitty we're not even going to let you play it"

    bongi on
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    rapstylerapstyle Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Stupid thing.

    rapstyle on
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    MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    I really hope the developers respond by saying "Yeah, fuck you, your country doesn't get this game". Then all the UKers have to import it be all abloo ablooo.

    MegaMan001 on
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    LewiePLewieP Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    The tabloids ruin everything for everyone again.

    LewieP on
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    The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    If Im being honest I had about zero interest in the game anyways, so even if it wasnt banned I probably wouldnt have picked it up. I can see why others might be annoyed but surely this is all getting blown out of proportion. As far as I can remember this has not really been on peoples must have lists ever.

    The_Scarab on
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    HodjHodj Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    I've never understood why some countries in Europe are so into censorship when it seems like their voting public is incredibly anti censorship on any level.

    I've had Manhunt 2 on preoder for a good while now, even when it was in doubt if it would ever release in the US, mainly because I really enjoyed the first game.

    The controversy over the game has always surprised me because all the storyline is is "A Most Dangerous Game: The Video Game", which is a book I had to read in high school many a moon ago. There's some simulated pixelated gore and callous violence thrown in, but as has already been mentioned, you see much more realistic blood and gore in Hostel (which I hated because I found it to be a shallow film) and the Saw flicks (which I love because they seem to have many levels, particularly the first movie and the third).

    Hodj on
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    EdcrabEdcrab Actually a hack Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    If Im being honest I had about zero interest in the game anyways, so even if it wasnt banned I probably wouldnt have picked it up. I can see why others might be annoyed but surely this is all getting blown out of proportion. As far as I can remember this has not really been on peoples must have lists ever.

    I think it's more the overall issue of censorship than anything else. I was never remotely interested in the Manhunt series, but I can easily see why people think this is setting a bad precedent.

    Edcrab on
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    XagarathXagarath Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    LewieP wrote: »
    The tabloids ruin everything for everyone again.

    To be fair, the BBFC don't care about tabloids much.

    Anyway, I'm actually happy about this news. Never cared about the game, but this is all excellent topical material for my dissetation.
    I hope they appeal.

    Xagarath on
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    DodgeBlanDodgeBlan PSN: dodgeblanRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Its bad because its obvious they are just trying to make a point.

    DodgeBlan on
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    plufimplufim Dr Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    I agree with Scarab. This game was never somethign I cared about, and the way Rockstar use controversy to generate interest really pisses me off. With Manhunt 2, they flew too close to the sun. I hope they learn to tone it down, as it is, they're giving the rest of the industry a bad name.

    plufim on
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    The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Has anyone here actually entertained the notion that they are morally justified in banning it.

    Or are we still going to defend it to the end of time having not played it ourselves nor having years of experience in the industry?

    You know, there is actually one possibility that it isnt suitable for normal rating and actually deserves an AO/Restricted and the BBFC are not singled out, as many other censorship boards have prohibited it, even with revisions.

    And no, we arent going to discuss whether censorship as a whole is good or bad, because it exists and we have to live with it.

    Banning Manhunt is in my opinion setting a precedent. A good one. Just like with all media, literature, films and TV, games should not be exempt from respectable and regulated censorship.

    Title is misleading too, as the game isnt banned. It just has restricted release. In the same way pornography does, or extremely violent films. Why Manhunt is somehow exempt from this I will never understand. To me, it smacks of Rockstar craving the controversy publicity again while GTA has been delayed. I know this isnt wholly accurate but Im getting sick of Rockstar making 'controversial' games. You know what guys, if you apparently hate the bad press then dont make fucking unacceptable games.

    And its not as though the BBFC is going around banning everything in sight. Manhunt is the first game in a long time to be so widely rejected around the world.

    To me its less 'making a point' and more 'this game is actually morally devoid of substance'. From what Ive seen of the game it didnt look all that fun, hence my lack of hype, and it just looked like the whole thing was out for the 'unrated' angle that seems to sell. But they went too far and Im pleased the ratings boards, both in the UK and overseas, arent taking any more crap and actually enforcing these goddam ratings that we see all over our games.

    Ok good.

    The_Scarab on
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    Mr_GrinchMr_Grinch Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    I've played the beta pretty far in and, yes, it's pretty damn brutal and bloody in places but I'd say it's a lot less "bleak" than the first one and it definitely doesn't deserve banning.

    The BBFC are being entirely unreasonable in this matter.

    ::Edit:: In slight reply to the above, it's a pretty fun game.

    Mr_Grinch on
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    LewiePLewieP Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    If Im being honest I had about zero interest in the game anyways, so even if it wasnt banned I probably wouldnt have picked it up. I can see why others might be annoyed but surely this is all getting blown out of proportion. As far as I can remember this has not really been on peoples must have lists ever.

    I have no intention of buying it either, but that's my decision to make, not the BBFC 's. Let's say a school kid goes on a Bow and Arrow killing spree, and the tabloids find a copy of Theif installed on his PC and start their scaremongering. Will the BBFC ban future games with bow and arrow?


    (all imo, we've had this debate far too many times)

    LewieP on
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    The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    LewieP wrote: »
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    If Im being honest I had about zero interest in the game anyways, so even if it wasnt banned I probably wouldnt have picked it up. I can see why others might be annoyed but surely this is all getting blown out of proportion. As far as I can remember this has not really been on peoples must have lists ever.

    I have no intention of buying it either, but that's my decision to make, not the BBFC 's. Let's say a school kid goes on a Bow and Arrow killing spree, and the tabloids find a copy of Theif installed on his PC and start their scaremongering. Will the BBFC ban future games with bow and arrow?


    (all imo, we've had this debate far too many times)

    But the point is you CAN still buy Manhunt 2, but it would be much more difficult to do so. As in, so hard that most people wouldnt, and R* wouldnt release it cause they would have no sales.

    Of course its your decision to buy the game or not, but I am all for regulated censorship, especially with the furor over the games industry, the last thing we need is more games like Manhunt 2 causing a media storm. Im not saying sugar coat all our video games, but you know, stop stirring shit.

    The_Scarab on
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    RookRook Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    I think at this stage Manhunt 2 is probably banned because it's called "Manhunt 2" rather than it's actual content, which is a failure of the BBFC if it turns out to be true.

    Rook on
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    DodgeBlanDodgeBlan PSN: dodgeblanRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    But no- it smacks of paternalism and treating games as a medium for teh kiddies. As someone else said, there is basically now a whole genre of film centred arond the gruesome extermination of hot teenagers. And don't give me that crap about 'interactivity'-- I doubt there is a person alive who would find manhunt more disturbing than hostel. You don't even SEE the murdahs now- and they can still justify a ban? I just finished playing a game where I got to smack two innocent old mens' (GoW2) heads into books until they bled to death, and because this game is 'modern' and has a 'profile' it gets banned?

    DodgeBlan on
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    The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    There is a clear difference between watching a violent act and portraying it via motion controls.

    It has always been the control scheme, not the visuals/theme that has offended the ratings boards.

    they take great ire to how you act out the murders. This to me is on the cusp of too far but they probably are justified in their restriction of it.

    The_Scarab on
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    bongibongi regular
    edited October 2007
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    I really hope the developers respond by saying "Yeah, fuck you, your country doesn't get this game". Then all the UKers have to import it be all abloo ablooo.

    no

    i think you've got that wrong

    i think you'll in fact find that the country is saying "yeah, fuck you, you don't get to sell your game here"

    bongi on
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    HodjHodj Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    plufim wrote: »
    I agree with Scarab. This game was never somethign I cared about, and the way Rockstar use controversy to generate interest really pisses me off. With Manhunt 2, they flew too close to the sun. I hope they learn to tone it down, as it is, they're giving the rest of the industry a bad name.

    Same could have been said of Larry Flynt when he fought for the porn industry all the way to the Supreme Court, but the fact is he stood his ground and fought for freedom of speech in the US and no matter what a scumbag he is people have to admit he has done more for freedom of speech in this country than pretty much anyone else in the past 40 years.

    The industry should have the right to make a game that doesn't get effectively banned by game companies and distributors based on an AO or Unrated rating.

    The perspective I use is this: I can walk into Best Buy and buy Unrated versions of movies that came out in theaters three months ago, but they won't carry an Adults Only rated game. That, to me, just doesn't mesh.

    I personally enjoyed the first Manhunt when it released, which is the main reason I want Manhunt 2. It wouldn't have killed me if it never got released in the US, there's tons of great games coming out this fall that it's just one drop in a bucket of quality gaming.

    However, in the bigger picture, Rockstar is really trying to push a point about the industry and hypocritical ratings stances by the industry, and the attitude that they should just "cool it" before they hurt the whole industry is basically saying they shouldn't stand up for what's right (freedom of the game making artists to express their stories and arts in the ways they, as the creators, see fit) because there is groups who don't think they should have that right.

    I'd take basically the same stance if movies were being banned outright through the ratings system, or books, or paintings, etc. because to me video games are, fundamentally, an amalgamation of many differing art styles all mashed together into a new medium, and as such should enjoy the same range of freedom of expression that each of those individual art styles enjoy.

    Right now the governments and the sensationalist mass market medias are trying to prevent that, and to me, that's just not right in a free society.

    Hodj on
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    LewiePLewieP Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    LewieP wrote: »
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    If Im being honest I had about zero interest in the game anyways, so even if it wasnt banned I probably wouldnt have picked it up. I can see why others might be annoyed but surely this is all getting blown out of proportion. As far as I can remember this has not really been on peoples must have lists ever.

    I have no intention of buying it either, but that's my decision to make, not the BBFC 's. Let's say a school kid goes on a Bow and Arrow killing spree, and the tabloids find a copy of Theif installed on his PC and start their scaremongering. Will the BBFC ban future games with bow and arrow?


    (all imo, we've had this debate far too many times)

    But the point is you CAN still buy Manhunt 2, but it would be much more difficult to do so. As in, so hard that most people wouldnt, and R* wouldnt release it cause they would have no sales.

    Of course its your decision to buy the game or not, but I am all for regulated censorship, especially with the furor over the games industry, the last thing we need is more games like Manhunt 2 causing a media storm. Im not saying sugar coat all our video games, but you know, stop stirring shit.
    I am generally for regulated censorship (but my opinion varies somewhat on a case-to-case basis), however I dislike the nature of the censorship going on here.

    The things I beleive have contributed to the refusal to rate Manhunt 2 by the BBFC -
    Rockstar make GTA
    Hot Coffee
    Tabloid pressure
    Ignorance
    People genuinely thinking "Games are Evil (tm)"
    And yes, Jack Thompson's "olol murder simulator!!!" too

    This is what I object to, not the principal of censorship.


    TLDR
    Does wholesome boyish pretend violence have any corelation with the real world?
    Short answer - No
    Long answer - No and go fuck yourselves you ignorant cockbags.

    LewieP on
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    Mr_GrinchMr_Grinch Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Game = fun
    Characters = Do not look realistic
    Gore = Pretty fucking brutal
    Tone = Not that bleak
    Plot = Actually pretty decent, better than the first.

    It honestly doesn't and didn't deserve banning.

    And Scarab, how can you still BUY Manhunt 2? PS2 imports tend not to work other than on a modded console, which, I believe, is illegal.

    Mr_Grinch on
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    LewiePLewieP Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Mr_Grinch wrote: »
    And Scarab, how can you still BUY Manhunt 2? PS2 imports tend not to work other than on a modded console, which, I believe, is illegal.

    I believe he means that it is not illegal to release a game as "unrated" it's just that no retailers will stock it, and none of the console manufacturers will license it...

    LewieP on
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    Mr_GrinchMr_Grinch Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    So... you can't buy it?

    Mr_Grinch on
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    TubeTube Registered User admin
    edited October 2007
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    Has anyone here actually entertained the notion that they are morally justified in banning it.

    No, because there is NOTHING MORALLY WRONG ABOUT PLAYING A COMPUTER GAME.

    Tube on
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    LewiePLewieP Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Mr_Grinch wrote: »
    So... you can't buy it?

    But in theory you could. If I am correct, he is saying that it is not banned from you playing it, just that without a BBFC rating, it appears as if Rockstar have failed to secure a Licensing agreement or distribution contracts. Just like what happens with any other game, it is the business reality that makes you unable to play it, not the BBFC.

    LewieP on
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    The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Mr_Grinch wrote: »
    Game = fun
    Characters = Do not look realistic
    Gore = Pretty fucking brutal
    Tone = Not that bleak
    Plot = Actually pretty decent, better than the first.

    It honestly doesn't and didn't deserve banning.

    And Scarab, how can you still BUY Manhunt 2? PS2 imports tend not to work other than on a modded console, which, I believe, is illegal.

    Like I said, you can buy it, its just hard.

    Every major retailer will not stock it, nor will online stores. But the game isnt banned. there is no injunction on the sale of the game. It just has a rating which no right minded retailer will carry. Some actually promote this fact, such as GAME.

    Also, I own an American Wii anyways. But I still think it might be region free.

    and modding consoles is not illegal either. in any way. it just voids warranty in a heartbeat.

    The_Scarab on
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    The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    Has anyone here actually entertained the notion that they are morally justified in banning it.

    No, because there is NOTHING MORALLY WRONG ABOUT PLAYING A COMPUTER GAME.

    Well that's just plain wrong for starters.

    But Im sure this has been discussed to no end, so I'll not drag it on again in another thread.

    The_Scarab on
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    Jam WarriorJam Warrior Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    LewieP wrote: »
    Mr_Grinch wrote: »
    And Scarab, how can you still BUY Manhunt 2? PS2 imports tend not to work other than on a modded console, which, I believe, is illegal.

    I believe he means that it is not illegal to release a game as "unrated" it's just that no retailers will stock it, and none of the console manufacturers will license it...

    Could you not therefore say that the censorship is coming from the retailers and console manufacturers rather then the BBFC? All they've done is say that they believe that the game goes above and beyond their classification system and as such can't be rated.

    Edit: If post below is true then this post is meaningless!

    Jam Warrior on
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    DaedalusDaedalus Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    LewieP wrote: »
    Mr_Grinch wrote: »
    So... you can't buy it?

    But in theory you could. If I am correct, he is saying that it is not banned from you playing it, just that without a BBFC rating, it appears as if Rockstar have failed to secure a Licensing agreement or distribution contracts. Just like what happens with any other game, it is the business reality that makes you unable to play it, not the BBFC.

    Well, then he's wrong. If a piece is refused classification, it's illegal to supply it to anywhere in the UK, and that goes for importers, too.

    In the US if a game is rated AO it's legal to sell but most stores won't shelve it. The UK works very differently.

    Daedalus on
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