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The looming threat of NEOs

1246

Posts

  • ThomamelasThomamelas Only one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    ege02 wrote: »
    Thomamelas wrote: »
    ege02 wrote: »
    poshniallo wrote: »
    We don't know the odds. We would like to study asteroids to find out the odds.

    You think you know the odds because you don't seem to understand how lack of knowledge of the past (remember that time in 1350 when a massive meteor missed the earth by the tiniest fraction? No? For all we know it happened) does not give you good data for a prediction of future events.

    And risk management and evaluation is a lot more complicated than a*b.

    We know enough.

    How many craters have left sizable craters? Not many.

    Out of those, how many have caused global calamities? Very few.

    Risk management is more complicated than a*b of course, but in the end it comes down to risk = (potential damage x likelihood). We already have a fairly accurate idea of the likelihood. And I showed in the first page that the average potential damage is not that high.

    120 impact craters are pretty clear to this day. One of which caused a mass extinction. Most of the rest would in the millions to billions of property damage.

    If we assume it takes erosion and tectonic plate shifts 100 million years to erase a crater - make that 120 million to round the numbers - that means 1 impact crater every million years. The possibility per year of a meteor big enough to create a significant crater is 1 in one million. Per day, 1 in 365 million.

    So tomorrow there is a 1 in 365 million chance that an NEO will hit the Earth and form a crater of considerable size.

    But that's not it: the millions to billions of property damage would only be realized if the thing hit the Earth close to an urban center. Urban centers form 1.5% of the Earth's surface - round it up to 2% for smooth calculation - so the chance of an NEO hitting Earth at a spot where it would cause significant loss of life and property is 1 in 15 billion.

    One. In. Fifteen. Billion.

    Anyway based on what ELM explained I'm willing to concede that it may be a worthwhile investment, not for what the thing is actually intended for, but for the potential spin-offs and byproduct benefits.

    Except that most of those Urban centers are near oceans. Oceans that make up 75% of the Earth's surface. A strike in the Atlantic Ocean would wipe out the eastern seaboard of North America, and much of Europe. A Pacific Ocean strike would do lots of damage to Southeast Asia and the west cost of North American. An Indian Ocean strike would have a death toll not worth thinking about.

    I don't need a direct strike to do massive property damage and in fact a direct strike would do less property damage.

    Thomamelas on
  • ShurakaiShurakai Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Say if we spotted a gigantic, exctinction level NEO 7 days before it hit, and it was on a direct bee-line to hit the center of the united states , if they fired very many nukes at it as it entered the upper atmosphere would it make a bit of difference? It would shatter and mabye partially vaporize if enough kilotons hit back, but would the nuclear fallout be unacceptable?

    Shurakai on
  • Gabriel_PittGabriel_Pitt Stepped in it Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    A: No, because it's already in the atmosphere.

    B: Any amount of fallout is acceptable when weighed against global extinction, until at least, you reach the level where it will cause global extinction itself.

    Gabriel_Pitt on
  • edited November 2007
    This content has been removed.

  • ThomamelasThomamelas Only one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Shurakai wrote: »
    Say if we spotted a gigantic, exctinction level NEO 7 days before it hit, and it was on a direct bee-line to hit the center of the united states , if they fired very many nukes at it as it entered the upper atmosphere would it make a bit of difference? It would shatter and mabye partially vaporize if enough kilotons hit back, but would the nuclear fallout be unacceptable?

    You wouldn't see much fallout, most of it would remain in space and almost all of the rest wouldn't survive entering the atmosphere.

    Thomamelas on
  • AdrienAdrien Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    An asteroid worth worrying about would transverse the entire atmosphere in a matter of seconds.

    Adrien on
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  • Satan.Satan. __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2007
    Eh, if we bite it, we bite it. Fun while it lasted!

    Satan. on
  • ShurakaiShurakai Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Adrien wrote: »
    An asteroid worth worrying about would transverse the entire atmosphere in a matter of seconds.

    Though if they had a week, they could theoretically time the launches right so that the ICBMs hit at thier maximum range, which I assume is in the neighborhood of a little ways beyond the Thermosphere (600-km).

    Shurakai on
  • The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I remember seeing some Discovery channel scare show where they talked about this stuff. Asteroids, collisions, what-if's, all that. One of the more interesting subjects that was brought up was asteroid composition. They were showing off an asteroid chunk, but instead of it just being a hunk of rock like you would think, it was hollow. Looked more like a honeycomb or sponge on the inside. Well, the nature of this hollowness was that any missile or nuke impacts would not destroy it, or even faze it. It would absorb and disperse the energy. Like throwing a firecracker at a chunk of concrete, no effect. And despite being all hollowed like that, it would still do the same amount of damage if it hit us.

    So basically, trying to blow an asteroid out of the sky might work, assuming it's the classic giant hunk o' rock people think they are. But if it's this hollow kind, you're just wasting explosives.

    The Wolfman on
    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
  • SmasherSmasher Starting to get dizzy Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I remember seeing some Discovery channel scare show where they talked about this stuff. Asteroids, collisions, what-if's, all that. One of the more interesting subjects that was brought up was asteroid composition. They were showing off an asteroid chunk, but instead of it just being a hunk of rock like you would think, it was hollow. Looked more like a honeycomb or sponge on the inside. Well, the nature of this hollowness was that any missile or nuke impacts would not destroy it, or even faze it. It would absorb and disperse the energy. Like throwing a firecracker at a chunk of concrete, no effect. And despite being all hollowed like that, it would still do the same amount of damage if it hit us.

    So basically, trying to blow an asteroid out of the sky might work, assuming it's the classic giant hunk o' rock people think they are. But if it's this hollow kind, you're just wasting explosives.

    The bolded part is patently false, which makes me think the rest of it is BS.

    Kinetic energy is (mv^2)/2. A hollow asteroid of a given composition will have less mass than a normal asteroid of the same composition, so if the two asteroids have the same speed the hollow one will have less kinetic energy and thus do less damage.

    Smasher on
  • ZzuluZzulu Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I suggest we start building underground vaults so we can shield ourselves during the asteroid apocalypse. Once the dust settles a generation later, we will rise from our shelters and rebuild civilization

    title.gif

    Zzulu on
    t5qfc9.jpg
  • ScreampunkScreampunk Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Zzulu wrote: »
    I suggest we start building underground vaults so we can shield ourselves during the asteroid apocalypse. Once the dust settles a generation later, we will rise from our shelters and rebuild civilization
    TehSpectre wrote: »
    Well, this clenches it.

    All the PAers had better pool our funds and buy that underground missile base while we can.

    There's still time. We can prepare!

    Screampunk on
    9u72nmv0y64e.jpg
  • The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Smasher wrote: »
    I remember seeing some Discovery channel scare show where they talked about this stuff. Asteroids, collisions, what-if's, all that. One of the more interesting subjects that was brought up was asteroid composition. They were showing off an asteroid chunk, but instead of it just being a hunk of rock like you would think, it was hollow. Looked more like a honeycomb or sponge on the inside. Well, the nature of this hollowness was that any missile or nuke impacts would not destroy it, or even faze it. It would absorb and disperse the energy. Like throwing a firecracker at a chunk of concrete, no effect. And despite being all hollowed like that, it would still do the same amount of damage if it hit us.

    So basically, trying to blow an asteroid out of the sky might work, assuming it's the classic giant hunk o' rock people think they are. But if it's this hollow kind, you're just wasting explosives.

    The bolded part is patently false, which makes me think the rest of it is BS.

    Kinetic energy is (mv^2)/2. A hollow asteroid of a given composition will have less mass than a normal asteroid of the same composition, so if the two asteroids have the same speed the hollow one will have less kinetic energy and thus do less damage.

    Well, yeah, mathematically less force, but at the weights we're talking about with supposed "global killer" asteroids, it's the difference between fucked and royally fucked.

    The main thing about the segment was to show that despite being hollow, shooting a rocket at it wouldn't result in it being shattered. Nothing would happen. And not hollow as in it's just a floating Kinder Egg in space, but more porous, like a sponge.

    But either way, I've tried to find info to back this up, but I'm coming up empty. So whatever. It was during a month where Discovery channel seemed to have a "We're fucked" show every week. Showing documentaries on all these things that'll kill a country, if not the world. Stuff like:

    -As per the thread, giant meteor hits Earth, and we can't do anything but imitate the dinosaurs by looking up. Conclusion: We're fucked.

    -A mountain collapses in Africa, sending a huge chunk into the ocean, resulting in a super tsunami aimed at the eastern American coast, with next to zero time to attempt evacuation. Conclusion: We're fucked.

    -The tectonic plates shift in such a way as to result in a super earthquake, destroying cities. Conclusion: We're fucked.

    -Supposedly there's a giant magma pocket under Yellowknife that, if erupted, would create a super volcano that would erupt for days. Beyond the obvious close range damage, the massive amount of smoke spewed would blanket the world for years. Conclusion: We're fucked.

    -Super storms. Everything from supercharged hurricanes, to electrical storms big and powerful enough to knock out entire city power grids, which result in society crumbling. Conclusion: We're fucked.

    I swear, between episodes of Mythbusters and American Chopper, they seemed to air a special that was nothing more than what natural occurring disaster will fuck over the world. Which do nothing but depress the fuck out of you for the rest of the day.

    The Wolfman on
    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
  • zakkielzakkiel Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    It's all irrelevant anyway. A nuke will not appreciably divert the course of a large asteroid unless you do the the Bruce Willis thing, and even then you would need a lot of nukes and do it while the asteroid was a long ways away. Nukes in space don't push things around; they bake them with high-intensity radiation.

    zakkiel on
    Account not recoverable. So long.
  • MKRMKR Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    zakkiel wrote: »
    It's all irrelevant anyway. A nuke will not appreciably divert the course of a large asteroid unless you do the the Bruce Willis thing, and even then you would need a lot of nukes and do it while the asteroid was a long ways away. Nukes in space don't push things around; they bake them with high-intensity radiation.

    Unless you pay attention and realize the idea isn't to launch a nuke up there and blow it a few feet away. The idea is to make a nuclear rocket by attaching to the rock, and focusing the blast away from the rock to nudge it to a better path.

    MKR on
  • CycloneRangerCycloneRanger Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    MKR wrote: »
    zakkiel wrote: »
    It's all irrelevant anyway. A nuke will not appreciably divert the course of a large asteroid unless you do the the Bruce Willis thing, and even then you would need a lot of nukes and do it while the asteroid was a long ways away. Nukes in space don't push things around; they bake them with high-intensity radiation.

    Unless you pay attention and realize the idea isn't to launch a nuke up there and blow it a few feet away. The idea is to make a nuclear rocket by attaching to the rock, and focusing the blast away from the rock to nudge it to a better path.
    Not quite, or at least, not exactly. Zakkiel is right; the only way to seriously impart any momentum change to a large asteroid using a nuke is to detonate it underground. The reaction mass available from the nuclear device itself is trivial; you need a few million tons of rock to really do anything. It's basically a question of propulsive efficiency, which, of course, increases as you distribute your available energy over a larger reaction mass. Energy scales with the square of velocity while momentum scales linearly with velocity.

    Of course, if you can identify the problem far enough into the future, even the small acceleration caused by detonating a nuke on the asteroid's surface could be enough. That's the reason early detection is so important—not only does it give us time to design a mission, but the mission itself is easier.

    CycloneRanger on
  • CasketCasket __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2007
    Is it possible to move the Earth off the course of an asteroid?

    Casket on
    casketiisigih1.png
  • MedopineMedopine __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2007
    That's probably the worst idea possible for this thread, congratulations.

    Medopine on
  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA Mod Emeritus
    edited November 2007
    Casket wrote: »
    Is it possible to move the Earth off the course of an asteroid?

    Get out of here.

    Elki on
    smCQ5WE.jpg
  • AibynAibyn Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Casket wrote: »
    Is it possible to move the Earth off the course of an asteroid?

    Only by digging tunnels in the planet in careful, planned out ways. Also, having a friends where one is insane and can teleport and a flying lizard that has craazy venom helps.

    Aibyn on
    "Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil...prayer, fasting, good works and so on. Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun. Eat leaden death, demon..."

    -- (Terry Pratchett, alt.fan.pratchett)
    11737_c4020a74dc025a53.png
  • redxredx I(x)=2(x)+1 whole numbersRegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Thomamelas wrote: »
    Shurakai wrote: »
    Say if we spotted a gigantic, exctinction level NEO 7 days before it hit, and it was on a direct bee-line to hit the center of the united states , if they fired very many nukes at it as it entered the upper atmosphere would it make a bit of difference? It would shatter and mabye partially vaporize if enough kilotons hit back, but would the nuclear fallout be unacceptable?

    You wouldn't see much fallout, most of it would remain in space and almost all of the rest wouldn't survive entering the atmosphere.

    nuclear fallout? why would it not survive entering the atmosphere?

    redx on
    They moistly come out at night, moistly.
  • zakkielzakkiel Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    MKR wrote: »
    zakkiel wrote: »
    It's all irrelevant anyway. A nuke will not appreciably divert the course of a large asteroid unless you do the the Bruce Willis thing, and even then you would need a lot of nukes and do it while the asteroid was a long ways away. Nukes in space don't push things around; they bake them with high-intensity radiation.

    Unless you pay attention and realize the idea isn't to launch a nuke up there and blow it a few feet away. The idea is to make a nuclear rocket by attaching to the rock, and focusing the blast away from the rock to nudge it to a better path.
    Not quite, or at least, not exactly. Zakkiel is right; the only way to seriously impart any momentum change to a large asteroid using a nuke is to detonate it underground. The reaction mass available from the nuclear device itself is trivial; you need a few million tons of rock to really do anything. It's basically a question of propulsive efficiency, which, of course, increases as you distribute your available energy over a larger reaction mass. Energy scales with the square of velocity while momentum scales linearly with velocity.

    Of course, if you can identify the problem far enough into the future, even the small acceleration caused by detonating a nuke on the asteroid's surface could be enough. That's the reason early detection is so important—not only does it give us time to design a mission, but the mission itself is easier.

    Exactly. In terms of "nudging" it way in advance though you run up against the fact that multi-body gravitational problems are chaotic, so I doubt you would be able to know far enough in advance that you were going to be hit. If the asteroid is in a non-chaotic regime, then a tiny nudge won't do anything - it will lapse right back into the same orbit.

    zakkiel on
    Account not recoverable. So long.
  • BrainleechBrainleech 機知に富んだコメントはここにあります Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    -As per the thread, giant meteor hits Earth, and we can't do anything but imitate the dinosaurs by looking up. Conclusion: We're fucked.

    -Supposedly there's a giant magma pocket under Yellowknife that, if erupted, would create a super volcano that would erupt for days. Beyond the obvious close range damage, the massive amount of smoke spewed would blanket the world for years. Conclusion: We're fucked.

    I know this would be one of the wild and weird conspiracy theories or whatever. I do not believe that a meteor killed the dinosaurs because of certain things that live on still today since that time.
    Certain plants, sea creatures, insects, bats and so on.

    I thought Yellowstone has the trapped pocket of brine that is under 6000 feet of superheated rock?
    In theory that superheated mud would flow making a huge mess of everything?
    Along with tons of ash.
    When the Yellowstone fires happened years ago I found it odd that it was raining ash in Cheyenne a few days after the fire started

    I thought Yellowknife was a city in Canada near a the Great Slave Lake and a mine complex?

    Brainleech on
  • ege02ege02 __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2007
    Casket wrote: »
    Is it possible to move the Earth off the course of an asteroid?
    Medopine wrote: »
    That's probably the stupidest, most retarded idea possible for this thread, congratulations.

    ege02 on
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  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    The thing here which I think people need to primarily realize is that while it is unlikely that an asteroid is really going to come and destroy us all in the next 50 years, it wont be very expensive to find out.

    If we spend a few million a year we will gain large numbers of highly useful observatories, and be able to track all the most dangerous NEOs. Should we find that one will hit us within say, 60 years, then it would be a trivial task to divert it. One that even a small team of scientists with a very limited budget could achieve.

    If conversely, we rely on our relatively pathetic last minute warning if that system we have now, and we find one heading for the earth which will impact in 5 years it will take the entire resources of the planet and require millions if not billions to die or starvation since all the worlds resources will need to go into redirecting the comet.

    So, its certain doom vs a few million spent on something which is a good idea anyway. Just because the certain doom scenario seems vaguely unlikely is not a good reason to choose it.

    tbloxham on
    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I think alot of the people fighting against this just don't understand how fraking cheap this would be. And it would provide all sorts of other neat advances along with warning us when we'll need to thaw out Bruce Willis and the guys from Aerosmith.

    shryke on
  • The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Brainleech wrote: »
    -As per the thread, giant meteor hits Earth, and we can't do anything but imitate the dinosaurs by looking up. Conclusion: We're fucked.

    -Supposedly there's a giant magma pocket under Yellowknife that, if erupted, would create a super volcano that would erupt for days. Beyond the obvious close range damage, the massive amount of smoke spewed would blanket the world for years. Conclusion: We're fucked.

    I know this would be one of the wild and weird conspiracy theories or whatever. I do not believe that a meteor killed the dinosaurs because of certain things that live on still today since that time.
    Certain plants, sea creatures, insects, bats and so on.

    I thought Yellowstone has the trapped pocket of brine that is under 6000 feet of superheated rock?
    In theory that superheated mud would flow making a huge mess of everything?
    Along with tons of ash.
    When the Yellowstone fires happened years ago I found it odd that it was raining ash in Cheyenne a few days after the fire started

    I thought Yellowknife was a city in Canada near a the Great Slave Lake and a mine complex?

    Whoops, my bad. I did mean Yellowstone. Old Faithful. That's the one that if it erupts just right results in a 4 day long erupting volcano that blackens the world.

    Sorry 'bout that.

    The Wolfman on
    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
  • zakkielzakkiel Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    zakkiel wrote: »
    MKR wrote: »
    zakkiel wrote: »
    It's all irrelevant anyway. A nuke will not appreciably divert the course of a large asteroid unless you do the the Bruce Willis thing, and even then you would need a lot of nukes and do it while the asteroid was a long ways away. Nukes in space don't push things around; they bake them with high-intensity radiation.

    Unless you pay attention and realize the idea isn't to launch a nuke up there and blow it a few feet away. The idea is to make a nuclear rocket by attaching to the rock, and focusing the blast away from the rock to nudge it to a better path.
    Not quite, or at least, not exactly. Zakkiel is right; the only way to seriously impart any momentum change to a large asteroid using a nuke is to detonate it underground. The reaction mass available from the nuclear device itself is trivial; you need a few million tons of rock to really do anything. It's basically a question of propulsive efficiency, which, of course, increases as you distribute your available energy over a larger reaction mass. Energy scales with the square of velocity while momentum scales linearly with velocity.

    Of course, if you can identify the problem far enough into the future, even the small acceleration caused by detonating a nuke on the asteroid's surface could be enough. That's the reason early detection is so important—not only does it give us time to design a mission, but the mission itself is easier.

    Exactly. In terms of "nudging" it way in advance though you run up against the fact that multi-body gravitational problems are chaotic, so I doubt you would be able to know far enough in advance that you were going to be hit. If the asteroid is in a non-chaotic regime, then a tiny nudge won't do anything - it will lapse right back into the same orbit.

    But, you don't necessarily need to deflect an asteroid in a serious way if you're going to move it way in advance. For any individual space rock, the chances of it intersecting a particular segment of space at a particular time are miniscule to begin with, so wouldn't changing the course in any arbitrary way be fairly likely to divert a hit to a miss?

    For a linear trajectory, sure. For a periodic system, no. Such systems automatically correct small deviations because they are stable, like a ball in a quadratic well. Give them a small push one way, and they quickly settle back in their former state (negative Lyapunov constant).

    Gravitational systems can become unstable if you have non-negligible multi-body effects. This is why there can be two stars in a mutual orbit, but never three. In this case the system is chaotic, and it becomes impossible to predict long-term behavior, so we would have no idea whether objects in this regime were going to strilke Earth or not.

    zakkiel on
    Account not recoverable. So long.
  • ThomamelasThomamelas Only one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    redx wrote: »
    Thomamelas wrote: »
    Shurakai wrote: »
    Say if we spotted a gigantic, exctinction level NEO 7 days before it hit, and it was on a direct bee-line to hit the center of the united states , if they fired very many nukes at it as it entered the upper atmosphere would it make a bit of difference? It would shatter and mabye partially vaporize if enough kilotons hit back, but would the nuclear fallout be unacceptable?

    You wouldn't see much fallout, most of it would remain in space and almost all of the rest wouldn't survive entering the atmosphere.

    nuclear fallout? why would it not survive entering the atmosphere?

    The heat of re-entry would vaporize it, but you wouldn't intercept in the upper atmosphere. Because the further out you can tag it, the less force you need.

    Thomamelas on
  • MKRMKR Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Thomamelas wrote: »
    redx wrote: »
    Thomamelas wrote: »
    Shurakai wrote: »
    Say if we spotted a gigantic, exctinction level NEO 7 days before it hit, and it was on a direct bee-line to hit the center of the united states , if they fired very many nukes at it as it entered the upper atmosphere would it make a bit of difference? It would shatter and mabye partially vaporize if enough kilotons hit back, but would the nuclear fallout be unacceptable?

    You wouldn't see much fallout, most of it would remain in space and almost all of the rest wouldn't survive entering the atmosphere.

    nuclear fallout? why would it not survive entering the atmosphere?

    The heat of re-entry would vaporize it, but you wouldn't intercept in the upper atmosphere. Because the further out you can tag it, the less force you need.

    How is vaporized nuclear material safer?

    MKR on
  • edited November 2007
    This content has been removed.

  • VeegeezeeVeegeezee Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Not all periodic systems exhibit Lyapunov stability though. Some NEOs will have chaotic orbits just due to the fact that they're making near passes by Earth.

    Veegeezee on
  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    MKR wrote: »
    Thomamelas wrote: »
    redx wrote: »
    Thomamelas wrote: »
    Shurakai wrote: »
    Say if we spotted a gigantic, exctinction level NEO 7 days before it hit, and it was on a direct bee-line to hit the center of the united states , if they fired very many nukes at it as it entered the upper atmosphere would it make a bit of difference? It would shatter and mabye partially vaporize if enough kilotons hit back, but would the nuclear fallout be unacceptable?

    You wouldn't see much fallout, most of it would remain in space and almost all of the rest wouldn't survive entering the atmosphere.

    nuclear fallout? why would it not survive entering the atmosphere?

    The heat of re-entry would vaporize it, but you wouldn't intercept in the upper atmosphere. Because the further out you can tag it, the less force you need.

    How is vaporized nuclear material safer?


    Dilution is the solution to pollution.

    IE, 500g of plutonium dispersed evenly throughout the atmosphere of the earth is trivial, 500g of plutonium sitting next to you in your house is not.

    Jealous Deva on
  • Gabriel_PittGabriel_Pitt Stepped in it Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    zakkiel wrote: »
    For a linear trajectory, sure. For a periodic system, no. Such systems automatically correct small deviations because they are stable, like a ball in a quadratic well. Give them a small push one way, and they quickly settle back in their former state (negative Lyapunov constant).

    Gravitational systems can become unstable if you have non-negligible multi-body effects. This is why there can be two stars in a mutual orbit, but never three. In this case the system is chaotic, and it becomes impossible to predict long-term behavior, so we would have no idea whether objects in this regime were going to strilke Earth or not.

    Right, but surely even if an incoming rock was actually in a periodic orbital system it would have to be a system which did not regularly intersect Earth. So even if it couldn't be permanently deflected, couldn't you still perturb its path long enough that it misses us on any given approach when it would?
    That would be essentially how it works. The orbital path might return the object to its original path, _after_ it misses the earth, but until then, we're golden, and even on it's original orbit, it's unlikely that the particular alignment of circumstances that would've lead it to hit us would reoccur for quite a while.

    Gabriel_Pitt on
  • ZzuluZzulu Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    we simply have to build our own asteroid, to shoot at other asteroids in space, as a defense

    Zzulu on
    t5qfc9.jpg
  • zakkielzakkiel Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    zakkiel wrote: »
    For a linear trajectory, sure. For a periodic system, no. Such systems automatically correct small deviations because they are stable, like a ball in a quadratic well. Give them a small push one way, and they quickly settle back in their former state (negative Lyapunov constant).

    Gravitational systems can become unstable if you have non-negligible multi-body effects. This is why there can be two stars in a mutual orbit, but never three. In this case the system is chaotic, and it becomes impossible to predict long-term behavior, so we would have no idea whether objects in this regime were going to strilke Earth or not.

    Right, but surely even if an incoming rock was actually in a periodic orbital system it would have to be a system which did not regularly intersect Earth. So even if it couldn't be permanently deflected, couldn't you still perturb its path long enough that it misses us on any given approach when it would?
    That would be essentially how it works. The orbital path might return the object to its original path, _after_ it misses the earth, but until then, we're golden, and even on it's original orbit, it's unlikely that the particular alignment of circumstances that would've lead it to hit us would reoccur for quite a while.
    That's a quantitative question, and I don't really want to spend the time to get a good answer. Particularly since my Igor demo has expired. But my gut feeling is no - the mass of a global-killer object is so huge, and the mass of a nuke so tiny, that you would only get it to deviate by a few km at most.
    Not all periodic systems exhibit Lyapunov stability though. Some NEOs will have chaotic orbits just due to the fact that they're making near passes by Earth.
    Yes, but again, how could you ever know that these were going to hit Earth in time to do something about it?

    zakkiel on
    Account not recoverable. So long.
  • redxredx I(x)=2(x)+1 whole numbersRegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    MKR wrote: »
    Thomamelas wrote: »
    redx wrote: »
    Thomamelas wrote: »
    Shurakai wrote: »
    Say if we spotted a gigantic, exctinction level NEO 7 days before it hit, and it was on a direct bee-line to hit the center of the united states , if they fired very many nukes at it as it entered the upper atmosphere would it make a bit of difference? It would shatter and mabye partially vaporize if enough kilotons hit back, but would the nuclear fallout be unacceptable?

    You wouldn't see much fallout, most of it would remain in space and almost all of the rest wouldn't survive entering the atmosphere.

    nuclear fallout? why would it not survive entering the atmosphere?

    The heat of re-entry would vaporize it, but you wouldn't intercept in the upper atmosphere. Because the further out you can tag it, the less force you need.

    How is vaporized nuclear material safer?


    Dilution is the solution to pollution.

    IE, 500g of plutonium dispersed evenly throughout the atmosphere of the earth is trivial, 500g of plutonium sitting next to you in your house is not.

    still survives re-entry, and when talking about nuking the hell out of something near earth, it is going to be pretty well spread out.

    I believe the particles are pretty small, unmassive, and are probably already oxides, so re-entering the atmosphere isn't going to do much. whatever conditions are, they are pretty mild compared to those the material went through a little while earlier.

    if it is enough fallout to matter, it coming back through the atmosphere shouldn't make much diffrence, unless it all stays in the upper atmosphere or something. Maybe it would take a few centuries before it got down to earth? I'd buy that. I'd buy not enough getting to earth to matter too.

    The whole not surviving thing. Well, that's not how fallout works.

    redx on
    They moistly come out at night, moistly.
  • Gabriel_PittGabriel_Pitt Stepped in it Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    zakkiel wrote: »
    But my gut feeling is no - the mass of a global-killer object is so huge, and the mass of a nuke so tiny, that you would only get it to deviate by a few km at most.
    And that is all you need to save the world.

    Gabriel_Pitt on
  • zakkielzakkiel Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    zakkiel wrote: »
    But my gut feeling is no - the mass of a global-killer object is so huge, and the mass of a nuke so tiny, that you would only get it to deviate by a few km at most.
    And that is all you need to save the world.
    Mean radius of the earth: 6,370 km.

    zakkiel on
    Account not recoverable. So long.
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