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Refusing to sell cigarettes to a pregnant woman
Fort1tude
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
My brother and I work at a gas station. He refused to sell one of the women who also worked there cigarettes because she was pregnant and told her so. Being immature she stormed out before the other cashier or manager could sell them to her. He then got bitched at by the manager and almost fired him. I looked it up and their are no laws saying he has a right to refuse the sale (as long as valid ID is shown and she isnt planning on giving the cigs to another person underage) but its a question of company policy vs morality. Also federal law states that "The employer must accommodate an employees religious beliefs if reasonable." I am paraphrasing but that is the gist. Also in the company handbook it states that employees must show moral integrity or something like that. Which I dont think the woman does in this case and of how she handled it.
Is there any legal precedent or argument that can hold water to use against my boss? I agree with my brother in what he did because its fucking stupid to smoke when pregnant but I understand its a personal rights thing. But the baby isnt her property and can be taken away for negligence once born, why isn't she held accountable for the fetus?
Its not that my brother or I are super religious or anything, but we both try to follow a code of ethics.
I think my possible arguments are that:
1.Its against my brothers spiritual beliefs to sell alcohol or tobacco to someone pregnant.
2.The woman is not showing moral integrity and thus is in violation on company policy.
3.Technically she is giving tobacco to an underage person (the fetus)
None of these are very solid arguments, I guess I just want to hear what you all think?
Is there any legal precedent or argument that can hold water to use against my boss? I agree with my brother in what he did because its fucking stupid to smoke when pregnant but I understand its a personal rights thing. But the baby isnt her property and can be taken away for negligence once born, why isn't she held accountable for the fetus?
Its not that my brother or I are super religious or anything, but we both try to follow a code of ethics.
I think my possible arguments are that:
1.Its against my brothers spiritual beliefs to sell alcohol or tobacco to someone pregnant.
2.The woman is not showing moral integrity and thus is in violation on company policy.
3.Technically she is giving tobacco to an underage person (the fetus)
None of these are very solid arguments, I guess I just want to hear what you all think?
Steam ID - Fort1tude
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2) In the company's eyes they don't care if the woman is showing moral integrity. You pointed out in your first paragraph that EMPLOYEES are supposed to show moral integrity not the customers. If they are not legally required to refuse the sale they're going to sell it. So they can make money. You could potentially argue that your brother would be in violation of this point though because it could be a violation of moral integrity to know you're willingly damaging a young fetus.
3) This gets in to finer legal points of when the fetus is actually considered living being and all kinds of difficult things. I doubt your brother's boss would let this one fly.
I understand your brother's stance that he doesn't want to sell tobacco to a pregnant person. The way I would approach it is instead of going to his boss saying "It's against my religious beliefs" just say "Hey look, I don't feel comfortable selling tobacco to a pregnant person. You're going to be on duty when ever I'm around, so what can I say to her to quickly delay the sale so I can get you to take care of it?" This way he can (hopefully) work with the boss on a way to come to a compromise: don't piss off the customers and he won't be the person selling the tobacco to them.
1. As an employee, and not a manager, it's probably not your decision to refuse service to anyone
2. the woman can do whatever she wants, she doesn't work for your company.
3. Roe vs. Wade probably disagrees with you.
B.net: Kusanku
It wouldnt be lying to say that I view pregnant women smoking and drinking as wrong, it is a valid part of almost any religion to say all life is sacred. But in this case all it boils down too is that she is harming the unborn child. There is no maybe about it, in some way her smoking will negatively affect this child.
Bottom line is still that she was within her rights to buy some smokes and at most your brother should have told her she shouldn't smoke while pregnant and then sold them to her. And really, I don't think he should even have said that much as it isn't any of his business.
I think I'll just do that if she tries to buy from me, saying its really bad for her, because its fucking irresponsible and immature. And its not against any company policy to repeat the warning label on the pack of smokes. We already do practically the same thing by having gambling helpline pamphlets in front of the lotto machine (granted no one points them out to people or actually cares about lotto).
It just strikes me as so fucking stupid but I can see my bosses point. Im not looking to force her to stop smoking but apparently the fuss she made about it almost got my brother fired and she is a cunt anyways.
It was a pretty arrogant and dumb thing to do (maybe not as dumb as smoking when pregnant, but that - despite what you might think - is neither here nor there because that's none of your brother's business). He should probably apologise to the girl and to his boss.
How is it even close to discriminating against her because shes pregnant? Its because shes harming another human being. It is not none of his business, if you saw a woman giving her infant puffs of a cigarette you would call the cops right?
The question, if you're going to make a morality issue about it, becomes where you draw the line in determining that you're not going to sell cigarettes to pregnant women. Is it going to be any pregnant woman, or only people that you know personally? If it's only people you know personally, then I'm pretty sure it won't stand up if you opt to issue a complaint or sue the manager or company. If it's "any pregnant woman, period" then there's another problem: any sexually active woman with a uterus and ovaries may be pregnant, even if she doesn't know it. Any obviously "pregnant-shaped" woman may not, in fact, be pregnant. Unless you're going to take a medical history and stand at the counter with a stack of home-pregnancy tests, I don't see how you can leverage your morality on the customer base. For that matter, are you going to screen your male customers who come in to buy cigarettes, on the chance that they might be exposing a pregnant woman and fetus to second hand smoke by smoking in the home or in their presence?
As to the issue of whether it's good for the fetus or not, and custody issues after the baby is born, I personally don't think it's relevant. While the fetus is inside her body, she can still terminate the pregnancy (restrictions vary by location regarding when and how and all of that, of course). It's still her body, no matter what her reproductive status.
IMO, while nicotine exposure may increase the risk of low birth weight and other problems for mother and baby, it's one of the least of the sins that its mother can share with it while in the womb.
I am not taking it to the extreme of sueing the company or anything, or forcing women to prove they arnt pregnant or men to prove they wont smoke around people. Its stupid to suggest that and pointless to even debate it, you even said yourself it would be impossible. But if you know someone is pregnant, like the rail thin girl with the 8 month belly or in this case knowing she was pregnant I think it is entirely reasonable to have another cashier ring up the person, or to restate the warning on the box and make them feel foolish (get pissed off). Now she is saying she refuses to work with my brother which shows her immaturity even more, but that is not important to this argument. While I can clearly see both sides of this argument I guess I am biased because its my brother and this woman is a waste of space from what I have seen.
He refused to sell her cigarettes on the grounds that she was pregnant. I think a good lawyer and a disinterested judge could make discrimination stick. It's not really, but that's probably why your boss has reacted badly - knee jerk response to a litigation society.
Seriously, just get your brother to apologise. I'm sure it'll all blow over if he can do so sincerely and what does 'I'm sorry, I was being a jerk' cost him?
This whole thing just smacks of an infantile fight. If I knew any better, I'd say your brother had a pre-school crush on the girl.
It's not your fucking store, Fort. If you don't approve of the way they do business, your options are get a new fucking job.
I am friends with the manager and can have a reasonable debate about this with him with no harm coming from it. I was asking for others opinions, I got them. No reason to use expletives with me, it isnt befitting of someone who's supposed to be an impartial moderator.
He wasnt doing it to be spiteful, the only one who reacted infantile was the woman. And I can safely say with 100% certainty that he does not have a crush on her.
EDIT: I also dont think he should have to apologize, if she had waited 30 seconds another cashier would have waited on her, or the manager himself. They were all standing there talking when this happened and she stormed out literally instantly. I believe if he wants to keep his job he will have to sell them to her in the future, but he shouldnt have to apologize.
Well its frustrating when I am having a reasonable discussion and someone comes in and shits on it. I already admitted that I can see both sides of the argument and will sell to whoever wants to buy it (if they are legal). But I dont have to hold my tongue. The handbook says I have to be polite and helpful to customers. I am just passing on useful information and wont do it in a mean way, you get more flies with honey than vinegar and all that.
At a luncheon one of the pregnant females I work with was smoking a cigarette afterwards and not even her commanding officer had any right to stop her. Yeah, it sucks that some people would do that but there's nothing you can do about it.
Otherwise, your brother hasnt got anything to stand on here.
Now the name calling starts. Alright I will bite, how am I acting immature in any of this? I have already said I believe twice now that there are no laws empowering me to do anything or stopping her, regardless of my moral standpoint the law is clear. I must sell them to her or my boss has reason to fire me. My brother would be acting immature if he was inconveniencing her in anyway, waiting 30 seconds for a coworker to come over and do the transaction is not an inconvenience. As it is, she didnt give a chance for any of that to happen because she got pissy about it and left. It wasnt just the 'fuck' that you said, it was the whole tone of your post that shows that you didnt read all of what I had said and just assumed I posted this to troll and am sitting here with my hands over my eyes not reading and learning. I asked for opinions with the full intent on weighting them against my own and looking at the whole situation logically. Nope, I must be immature, I couldnt possibly have posted about that or learned anything today.
Why does everyone have to assume all co-workers must get along? You are right though, it would be spiteful and immature to do that. I will just adopt a "What do I care if she fucks up her child" attitude because it doesnt affect me.
We both are, as much as I respect and love working with my boss the job pays way too little for the amount of work we put in. I am looking for a IT position as it is my passion and I would like to think I am damn good at it, but with no degree (working on that), no certifications, and only 3 years experience (county internship, college internship, high volume call center for Answers by Gateway) my resume isnt filled enough to get me the job I want. Thus the gas station job.
EDIT: I guess this can be closed now as I have figured out what I plan on doing (nothing) and I dont want this to degenerate into a pissing contest between ViolentChemistry and I.
In a lot of places, within this very post no less.
Here rather than admit that your brother violated the regulations you just explained that you're aware of, you try to find a way to make it sound like he didn't refuse to sell her the cigarettes. Inability to own up.
What do you expect a customer to do when you refuse them service and start judging them in front of people in a public place like a store, exactly?
Edit: And fuck your stupid cop-out about how they're an employee, if they're on the other side of the counter buying something they are a customer, period. That's the way it works.
And then rather than talk about your brother's fuck-up you think talking about how you don't like me is going to help you. I read everything you said and you keep trying to weasel out and make your personal morality supercede the law and company policy because you can't stand to have things not go your way. Your brother hasn't a leg to stand on, yelling at me for "being mean" to you isn't going to change that. Get over it.
What part of "I will just not do anything about it and do what I am supposed to by policy" dont you understand. There was no passive aggressive statement there, I am not planning on having an "Attitude" with her. I plan on doing what I said, not giving a fuck about her.
Possible apples to oranges, if so I apologize.
Warning labels do not dictate company policy. If your store policy is to not refuse anyone sale on anything unless prohibited by law, like drugs and alcohol to minors, then you follow it. However, I don't recall any law that states that you cannot sell cigarettes to pregnant women. If your store policy does not have anything explicitly stating to prohibit that sale, you are in the wrong by denying the customer, employee or not, that sale. In the strictest terms, that can lead to the loss of employment.
EIDT: A quick google and wikipedia search suggest that pregnant women can buy cigarettes with no law preventing them from doing so.
People who have to work together have to be able to work together. They don't have to be a whole crew of BFFs or any nonsense, but you can't have passive-aggressive bullshit flying around.
Edit: Telling her you won't sell her cigarettes because you don't think pregnant women should smoke is passive-aggressive. The passive-aggression already exists, it's out there in the work atmosphere. Your brother has just made a bunch of his coworker's workdays a lot less fun.
They were undoubtably for her, but we do get a lot of her friends in the store either stealing (which we cant prove as we are busy with customers on the other side of the store but shit ends up missing where the people just were) or trying to buy alcohol for people in their cars. I am talking 1 guy barely 21 walking in straight for the 30 packs of natural ice and having about 5 people between 16-19 in their car outside.
Yes we have gone over this and I comprehend and will be following this, as I have said, several times already.
Everyone has already said it, but your brother needs to apologize, and forget about it, or find a new job, you too.
But I dont care enough to talk with her, I am just going to live and let live. How hard is it for everyone to understand that when I say I am not going to give a fuck about what she does or doesnt do that I dont mean to attach some passive aggressive bullshit to it?
From reading Fort's posts ,I do not think that his brother was refusing to sell her cigarettes because he hated her or wanted to do some passive-aggressive bullshit as you say, but because he didn't want to sell a pregnant woman cigarettes.
And Fort, as you said, I'd suggest getting out of a job like the one you have currently because not matter how morally wrong something may be, capitalism will triumph.
Its not actually illegal, just against company policy. I dont think it qualifies as harassment because harassment usually has to be more than once and the person has to proclaim in some way that it is not appreciated. I believe thats the case.