As was foretold, we've added advertisements to the forums! If you have questions, or if you encounter any bugs, please visit this thread: https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/240191/forum-advertisement-faq-and-reports-thread/

Refusing to sell cigarettes to a pregnant woman

Fort1tudeFort1tude Registered User regular
edited November 2007 in Help / Advice Forum
My brother and I work at a gas station. He refused to sell one of the women who also worked there cigarettes because she was pregnant and told her so. Being immature she stormed out before the other cashier or manager could sell them to her. He then got bitched at by the manager and almost fired him. I looked it up and their are no laws saying he has a right to refuse the sale (as long as valid ID is shown and she isnt planning on giving the cigs to another person underage) but its a question of company policy vs morality. Also federal law states that "The employer must accommodate an employees religious beliefs if reasonable." I am paraphrasing but that is the gist. Also in the company handbook it states that employees must show moral integrity or something like that. Which I dont think the woman does in this case and of how she handled it.

Is there any legal precedent or argument that can hold water to use against my boss? I agree with my brother in what he did because its fucking stupid to smoke when pregnant but I understand its a personal rights thing. But the baby isnt her property and can be taken away for negligence once born, why isn't she held accountable for the fetus?

Its not that my brother or I are super religious or anything, but we both try to follow a code of ethics.

I think my possible arguments are that:
1.Its against my brothers spiritual beliefs to sell alcohol or tobacco to someone pregnant.
2.The woman is not showing moral integrity and thus is in violation on company policy.
3.Technically she is giving tobacco to an underage person (the fetus)

None of these are very solid arguments, I guess I just want to hear what you all think?

Steam ID - Fort1tude
Fort1tude on
«1

Posts

  • KingSpikeKingSpike Registered User
    edited November 2007
    1) You've already said that you and your brother are not super religious, so I doubt your boss would let the whole "it's against my religion" thing to fly. If they REALLY thought you were serious they'd probably ask for some kind of proof, like a letter from your religious leader explaining these beliefs. But this would most likely be a hard sell...and you'd be lying which may or may not go against your code of ethics.

    2) In the company's eyes they don't care if the woman is showing moral integrity. You pointed out in your first paragraph that EMPLOYEES are supposed to show moral integrity not the customers. If they are not legally required to refuse the sale they're going to sell it. So they can make money. You could potentially argue that your brother would be in violation of this point though because it could be a violation of moral integrity to know you're willingly damaging a young fetus.

    3) This gets in to finer legal points of when the fetus is actually considered living being and all kinds of difficult things. I doubt your brother's boss would let this one fly.

    I understand your brother's stance that he doesn't want to sell tobacco to a pregnant person. The way I would approach it is instead of going to his boss saying "It's against my religious beliefs" just say "Hey look, I don't feel comfortable selling tobacco to a pregnant person. You're going to be on duty when ever I'm around, so what can I say to her to quickly delay the sale so I can get you to take care of it?" This way he can (hopefully) work with the boss on a way to come to a compromise: don't piss off the customers and he won't be the person selling the tobacco to them.

    KingSpike on
  • mastmanmastman Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Fort1tude wrote: »
    I think my possible arguments are that:
    1.Its against my brothers spiritual beliefs to sell alcohol or tobacco to someone pregnant.
    2.The woman is not showing moral integrity and thus is in violation on company policy.
    3.Technically she is giving tobacco to an underage person (the fetus)


    1. As an employee, and not a manager, it's probably not your decision to refuse service to anyone
    2. the woman can do whatever she wants, she doesn't work for your company.
    3. Roe vs. Wade probably disagrees with you.

    mastman on
    ByalIX8.png
    B.net: Kusanku
  • Caliban42Caliban42 Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I think he should have sold her the cigarettes. Yeah, it clearly isn't good that she's smoking while pregnant, but ultimately that's not your brother's choice to make for her. His job is to sell stuff to people that want to buy it and are legally able to do so, not be the morality police.

    Caliban42 on
  • Fort1tudeFort1tude Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    You both missed a major point, she DOES work for the company, she IS an employee of that store. And the manager isnt always around, he and I work the night shifts, like 6-12AM or 12-7AM. We dont work together either. Its just one person on the overnight shift.

    Fort1tude on
    Steam ID - Fort1tude
  • Fort1tudeFort1tude Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    KingSpike wrote: »
    1) You've already said that you and your brother are not super religious, so I doubt your boss would let the whole "it's against my religion" thing to fly. If they REALLY thought you were serious they'd probably ask for some kind of proof, like a letter from your religious leader explaining these beliefs. But this would most likely be a hard sell...and you'd be lying which may or may not go against your code of ethics.

    It wouldnt be lying to say that I view pregnant women smoking and drinking as wrong, it is a valid part of almost any religion to say all life is sacred. But in this case all it boils down too is that she is harming the unborn child. There is no maybe about it, in some way her smoking will negatively affect this child.

    Fort1tude on
    Steam ID - Fort1tude
  • Caliban42Caliban42 Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I did catch the fact that she's an employee, but really the whole morality clause in the handbook isn't going to help your case. Those are just there to give the company an easy out to fire someone. For example, when I worked at Best Buy, a manager there was arrested on charges of statutory rape and was fired under the same kind of morality thing. That's when that type of clause is invoked, or like if a radio DJ uses a racial slur on the air.

    Bottom line is still that she was within her rights to buy some smokes and at most your brother should have told her she shouldn't smoke while pregnant and then sold them to her. And really, I don't think he should even have said that much as it isn't any of his business.

    Caliban42 on
  • Fort1tudeFort1tude Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Caliban42 wrote: »
    I did catch the fact that she's an employee, but really the whole morality clause in the handbook isn't going to help your case. Those are just there to give the company an easy out to fire someone. For example, when I worked at Best Buy, a manager there was arrested on charges of statutory rape and was fired under the same kind of morality thing. That's when that type of clause is invoked, or like if a radio DJ uses a racial slur on the air.

    Bottom line is still that she was within her rights to buy some smokes and at most your brother should have told her she shouldn't smoke while pregnant and then sold them to her. And really, I don't think he should even have said that much as it isn't any of his business.

    I think I'll just do that if she tries to buy from me, saying its really bad for her, because its fucking irresponsible and immature. And its not against any company policy to repeat the warning label on the pack of smokes. We already do practically the same thing by having gambling helpline pamphlets in front of the lotto machine (granted no one points them out to people or actually cares about lotto).

    It just strikes me as so fucking stupid but I can see my bosses point. Im not looking to force her to stop smoking but apparently the fuss she made about it almost got my brother fired and she is a cunt anyways.

    Fort1tude on
    Steam ID - Fort1tude
  • SzechuanosaurusSzechuanosaurus Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2007
    Your manager was most likely bitching at him a) because he caused unnecessary conflict between two employees and b) because he was treading a fine line towards discriminating against a pregnant member of staff.

    It was a pretty arrogant and dumb thing to do (maybe not as dumb as smoking when pregnant, but that - despite what you might think - is neither here nor there because that's none of your brother's business). He should probably apologise to the girl and to his boss.

    Szechuanosaurus on
  • Fort1tudeFort1tude Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Your manager was most likely bitching at him a) because he caused unnecessary conflict between two employees and b) because he was treading a fine line towards discriminating against a pregnant member of staff.

    It was a pretty arrogant and dumb thing to do (maybe not as dumb as smoking when pregnant, but that - despite what you might think - is neither here nor there because that's none of your brother's business). He should probably apologise to the girl and to his boss.

    How is it even close to discriminating against her because shes pregnant? Its because shes harming another human being. It is not none of his business, if you saw a woman giving her infant puffs of a cigarette you would call the cops right?

    Fort1tude on
    Steam ID - Fort1tude
  • SolandraSolandra Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    While I respect your brother's willingness to take a moral stand, and while I personally think that it's dumb to smoke period, much less while pregnant, I don't think you have much in the way of grounds to pursue it any further. Because there's not anything in the law prohibiting the sale of cigarettes or tobacco products to pregnant women, it may well even become a case of discrimination.

    The question, if you're going to make a morality issue about it, becomes where you draw the line in determining that you're not going to sell cigarettes to pregnant women. Is it going to be any pregnant woman, or only people that you know personally? If it's only people you know personally, then I'm pretty sure it won't stand up if you opt to issue a complaint or sue the manager or company. If it's "any pregnant woman, period" then there's another problem: any sexually active woman with a uterus and ovaries may be pregnant, even if she doesn't know it. Any obviously "pregnant-shaped" woman may not, in fact, be pregnant. Unless you're going to take a medical history and stand at the counter with a stack of home-pregnancy tests, I don't see how you can leverage your morality on the customer base. For that matter, are you going to screen your male customers who come in to buy cigarettes, on the chance that they might be exposing a pregnant woman and fetus to second hand smoke by smoking in the home or in their presence?

    As to the issue of whether it's good for the fetus or not, and custody issues after the baby is born, I personally don't think it's relevant. While the fetus is inside her body, she can still terminate the pregnancy (restrictions vary by location regarding when and how and all of that, of course). It's still her body, no matter what her reproductive status.

    IMO, while nicotine exposure may increase the risk of low birth weight and other problems for mother and baby, it's one of the least of the sins that its mother can share with it while in the womb.

    Solandra on
  • Fort1tudeFort1tude Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Solandra wrote: »
    While I respect your brother's willingness to take a moral stand, and while I personally think that it's dumb to smoke period, much less while pregnant, I don't think you have much in the way of grounds to pursue it any further. Because there's not anything in the law prohibiting the sale of cigarettes or tobacco products to pregnant women, it may well even become a case of discrimination.

    The question, if you're going to make a morality issue about it, becomes where you draw the line in determining that you're not going to sell cigarettes to pregnant women. Is it going to be any pregnant woman, or only people that you know personally? If it's only people you know personally, then I'm pretty sure it won't stand up if you opt to issue a complaint or sue the manager or company. If it's "any pregnant woman, period" then there's another problem: any sexually active woman with a uterus and ovaries may be pregnant, even if she doesn't know it. Any obviously "pregnant-shaped" woman may not, in fact, be pregnant. Unless you're going to take a medical history and stand at the counter with a stack of home-pregnancy tests, I don't see how you can leverage your morality on the customer base. For that matter, are you going to screen your male customers who come in to buy cigarettes, on the chance that they might be exposing a pregnant woman and fetus to second hand smoke by smoking in the home or in their presence?

    As to the issue of whether it's good for the fetus or not, and custody issues after the baby is born, I personally don't think it's relevant. While the fetus is inside her body, she can still terminate the pregnancy (restrictions vary by location regarding when and how and all of that, of course). It's still her body, no matter what her reproductive status.

    IMO, while nicotine exposure may increase the risk of low birth weight and other problems for mother and baby, it's one of the least of the sins that its mother can share with it while in the womb.

    I am not taking it to the extreme of sueing the company or anything, or forcing women to prove they arnt pregnant or men to prove they wont smoke around people. Its stupid to suggest that and pointless to even debate it, you even said yourself it would be impossible. But if you know someone is pregnant, like the rail thin girl with the 8 month belly or in this case knowing she was pregnant I think it is entirely reasonable to have another cashier ring up the person, or to restate the warning on the box and make them feel foolish (get pissed off). Now she is saying she refuses to work with my brother which shows her immaturity even more, but that is not important to this argument. While I can clearly see both sides of this argument I guess I am biased because its my brother and this woman is a waste of space from what I have seen.

    Fort1tude on
    Steam ID - Fort1tude
  • SzechuanosaurusSzechuanosaurus Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2007
    Fort1tude wrote: »
    Your manager was most likely bitching at him a) because he caused unnecessary conflict between two employees and b) because he was treading a fine line towards discriminating against a pregnant member of staff.

    It was a pretty arrogant and dumb thing to do (maybe not as dumb as smoking when pregnant, but that - despite what you might think - is neither here nor there because that's none of your brother's business). He should probably apologise to the girl and to his boss.

    How is it even close to discriminating against her because shes pregnant? Its because shes harming another human being. It is not none of his business, if you saw a woman giving her infant puffs of a cigarette you would call the cops right?

    He refused to sell her cigarettes on the grounds that she was pregnant. I think a good lawyer and a disinterested judge could make discrimination stick. It's not really, but that's probably why your boss has reacted badly - knee jerk response to a litigation society.

    Seriously, just get your brother to apologise. I'm sure it'll all blow over if he can do so sincerely and what does 'I'm sorry, I was being a jerk' cost him?

    This whole thing just smacks of an infantile fight. If I knew any better, I'd say your brother had a pre-school crush on the girl.

    Szechuanosaurus on
  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2007
    Fort1tude wrote: »
    Your manager was most likely bitching at him a) because he caused unnecessary conflict between two employees and b) because he was treading a fine line towards discriminating against a pregnant member of staff.

    It was a pretty arrogant and dumb thing to do (maybe not as dumb as smoking when pregnant, but that - despite what you might think - is neither here nor there because that's none of your brother's business). He should probably apologise to the girl and to his boss.

    How is it even close to discriminating against her because shes pregnant? Its because shes harming another human being. It is not none of his business, if you saw a woman giving her infant puffs of a cigarette you would call the cops right?

    He refused to sell her cigarettes on the grounds that she was pregnant. I think a good lawyer and a disinterested judge could make discrimination stick. It's not really, but that's probably why your boss has reacted badly - knee jerk response to a litigation society.

    Seriously, just get your brother to apologise. I'm sure it'll all blow over if he can do so sincerely and what does 'I'm sorry, I was being a jerk' cost him?

    This whole thing just smacks of an infantile fight. If I knew any better, I'd say your brother had a pre-school crush on the girl.

    It's not your fucking store, Fort. If you don't approve of the way they do business, your options are get a new fucking job.

    ViolentChemistry on
  • Fort1tudeFort1tude Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Fort1tude wrote: »
    Your manager was most likely bitching at him a) because he caused unnecessary conflict between two employees and b) because he was treading a fine line towards discriminating against a pregnant member of staff.

    It was a pretty arrogant and dumb thing to do (maybe not as dumb as smoking when pregnant, but that - despite what you might think - is neither here nor there because that's none of your brother's business). He should probably apologise to the girl and to his boss.

    How is it even close to discriminating against her because shes pregnant? Its because shes harming another human being. It is not none of his business, if you saw a woman giving her infant puffs of a cigarette you would call the cops right?

    He refused to sell her cigarettes on the grounds that she was pregnant. I think a good lawyer and a disinterested judge could make discrimination stick. It's not really, but that's probably why your boss has reacted badly - knee jerk response to a litigation society.

    Seriously, just get your brother to apologise. I'm sure it'll all blow over if he can do so sincerely and what does 'I'm sorry, I was being a jerk' cost him?

    This whole thing just smacks of an infantile fight. If I knew any better, I'd say your brother had a pre-school crush on the girl.

    It's not your fucking store, Fort. If you don't approve of the way they do business, your options are get a new fucking job.

    I am friends with the manager and can have a reasonable debate about this with him with no harm coming from it. I was asking for others opinions, I got them. No reason to use expletives with me, it isnt befitting of someone who's supposed to be an impartial moderator.

    Fort1tude on
    Steam ID - Fort1tude
  • Fort1tudeFort1tude Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Fort1tude wrote: »
    Your manager was most likely bitching at him a) because he caused unnecessary conflict between two employees and b) because he was treading a fine line towards discriminating against a pregnant member of staff.

    It was a pretty arrogant and dumb thing to do (maybe not as dumb as smoking when pregnant, but that - despite what you might think - is neither here nor there because that's none of your brother's business). He should probably apologise to the girl and to his boss.

    How is it even close to discriminating against her because shes pregnant? Its because shes harming another human being. It is not none of his business, if you saw a woman giving her infant puffs of a cigarette you would call the cops right?

    He refused to sell her cigarettes on the grounds that she was pregnant. I think a good lawyer and a disinterested judge could make discrimination stick. It's not really, but that's probably why your boss has reacted badly - knee jerk response to a litigation society.

    Seriously, just get your brother to apologise. I'm sure it'll all blow over if he can do so sincerely and what does 'I'm sorry, I was being a jerk' cost him?

    This whole thing just smacks of an infantile fight. If I knew any better, I'd say your brother had a pre-school crush on the girl.

    He wasnt doing it to be spiteful, the only one who reacted infantile was the woman. And I can safely say with 100% certainty that he does not have a crush on her.

    EDIT: I also dont think he should have to apologize, if she had waited 30 seconds another cashier would have waited on her, or the manager himself. They were all standing there talking when this happened and she stormed out literally instantly. I believe if he wants to keep his job he will have to sell them to her in the future, but he shouldnt have to apologize.

    Fort1tude on
    Steam ID - Fort1tude
  • SzechuanosaurusSzechuanosaurus Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2007
    The PA moderators are not, and have never claimed to be, impartial.

    Szechuanosaurus on
  • Fort1tudeFort1tude Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    The PA moderators are not, and have never claimed to be, impartial.

    Well its frustrating when I am having a reasonable discussion and someone comes in and shits on it. I already admitted that I can see both sides of the argument and will sell to whoever wants to buy it (if they are legal). But I dont have to hold my tongue. The handbook says I have to be polite and helpful to customers. I am just passing on useful information and wont do it in a mean way, you get more flies with honey than vinegar and all that.

    Fort1tude on
    Steam ID - Fort1tude
  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2007
    Oops, I didn't play yes-man for an immature douche and now he's questioning my partiality on the grounds that if I was impartial I'd clearly be on his side and also impartial people don't say "fuck" apparently. Not your call, the person whose call it is has already made the call, your brother was in the wrong and can apologize or be a stubborn little brat about the situation and make the work environment more unpleasant for everyone at which point your boss's best option is to fire his ass.

    ViolentChemistry on
  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Fort1tude wrote: »
    How is it even close to discriminating against her because shes pregnant? Its because shes harming another human being. It is not none of his business, if you saw a woman giving her infant puffs of a cigarette you would call the cops right?
    I'd also call the police if I saw a woman suck an infant through a vacuum tube. What you're missing here is that a fetus is not an infant.

    At a luncheon one of the pregnant females I work with was smoking a cigarette afterwards and not even her commanding officer had any right to stop her. Yeah, it sucks that some people would do that but there's nothing you can do about it.

    Quid on
  • Synthetic OrangeSynthetic Orange Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    If you wanted discussion, you've just posted in the wrong forum for that.

    Otherwise, your brother hasnt got anything to stand on here.

    Synthetic Orange on
  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Fort1tude wrote: »
    The PA moderators are not, and have never claimed to be, impartial.

    Well its frustrating when I am having a reasonable discussion and someone comes in and shits on it. I already admitted that I can see both sides of the argument and will sell to whoever wants to buy it (if they are legal). But I dont have to hold my tongue. The handbook says I have to be polite and helpful to customers. I am just passing on useful information and wont do it in a mean way, you get more flies with honey than vinegar and all that.
    She does know the dangers and you would be acting like a jerk by pointing them out just because you disagree with her. Just because you'd be within the rules of the company and acting polite wouldn't make it any less annoying or spiteful.

    Quid on
  • Fort1tudeFort1tude Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Oops, I didn't play yes-man for an immature douche and now he's questioning my partiality on the grounds that if I was impartial I'd clearly be on his side and also impartial people don't say "fuck" apparently. Not your call, the person whose call it is has already made the call, your brother was in the wrong and can apologize or be a stubborn little brat about the situation and make the work environment more unpleasant for everyone at which point your boss's best option is to fire his ass.

    Now the name calling starts. Alright I will bite, how am I acting immature in any of this? I have already said I believe twice now that there are no laws empowering me to do anything or stopping her, regardless of my moral standpoint the law is clear. I must sell them to her or my boss has reason to fire me. My brother would be acting immature if he was inconveniencing her in anyway, waiting 30 seconds for a coworker to come over and do the transaction is not an inconvenience. As it is, she didnt give a chance for any of that to happen because she got pissy about it and left. It wasnt just the 'fuck' that you said, it was the whole tone of your post that shows that you didnt read all of what I had said and just assumed I posted this to troll and am sitting here with my hands over my eyes not reading and learning. I asked for opinions with the full intent on weighting them against my own and looking at the whole situation logically. Nope, I must be immature, I couldnt possibly have posted about that or learned anything today.

    Fort1tude on
    Steam ID - Fort1tude
  • Fort1tudeFort1tude Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Quid wrote: »
    Fort1tude wrote: »
    The PA moderators are not, and have never claimed to be, impartial.

    Well its frustrating when I am having a reasonable discussion and someone comes in and shits on it. I already admitted that I can see both sides of the argument and will sell to whoever wants to buy it (if they are legal). But I dont have to hold my tongue. The handbook says I have to be polite and helpful to customers. I am just passing on useful information and wont do it in a mean way, you get more flies with honey than vinegar and all that.
    She does know the dangers and you would be acting like a jerk by pointing them out just because you disagree with her. Just because you'd be within the rules of the company and acting polite wouldn't make it any less annoying or spiteful.

    Why does everyone have to assume all co-workers must get along? You are right though, it would be spiteful and immature to do that. I will just adopt a "What do I care if she fucks up her child" attitude because it doesnt affect me.

    Fort1tude on
    Steam ID - Fort1tude
  • PeekingDuckPeekingDuck __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2007
    I think your brother is in the right and I think he should look for another job.

    PeekingDuck on
  • Fort1tudeFort1tude Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I think your brother is in the right and I think he should look for another job.

    We both are, as much as I respect and love working with my boss the job pays way too little for the amount of work we put in. I am looking for a IT position as it is my passion and I would like to think I am damn good at it, but with no degree (working on that), no certifications, and only 3 years experience (county internship, college internship, high volume call center for Answers by Gateway) my resume isnt filled enough to get me the job I want. Thus the gas station job.

    EDIT: I guess this can be closed now as I have figured out what I plan on doing (nothing) and I dont want this to degenerate into a pissing contest between ViolentChemistry and I.

    Fort1tude on
    Steam ID - Fort1tude
  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2007
    Fort1tude wrote: »
    Now the name calling starts. Alright I will bite, how am I acting immature in any of this?

    In a lot of places, within this very post no less.
    Fort1tude wrote: »
    I have already said I believe twice now that there are no laws empowering me to do anything or stopping her, regardless of my moral standpoint the law is clear. I must sell them to her or my boss has reason to fire me. My brother would be acting immature if he was inconveniencing her in anyway, waiting 30 seconds for a coworker to come over and do the transaction is not an inconvenience.

    Here rather than admit that your brother violated the regulations you just explained that you're aware of, you try to find a way to make it sound like he didn't refuse to sell her the cigarettes. Inability to own up.
    Fort1tude wrote: »
    As it is, she didnt give a chance for any of that to happen because she got pissy about it and left.

    What do you expect a customer to do when you refuse them service and start judging them in front of people in a public place like a store, exactly?

    Edit: And fuck your stupid cop-out about how they're an employee, if they're on the other side of the counter buying something they are a customer, period. That's the way it works.
    Fort1tude wrote: »
    It wasnt just the 'fuck' that you said, it was the whole tone of your post that shows that you didnt read all of what I had said and just assumed I posted this to troll and am sitting here with my hands over my eyes not reading and learning. I asked for opinions with the full intent on weighting them against my own and looking at the whole situation logically. Nope, I must be immature, I couldnt possibly have posted about that or learned anything today.

    And then rather than talk about your brother's fuck-up you think talking about how you don't like me is going to help you. I read everything you said and you keep trying to weasel out and make your personal morality supercede the law and company policy because you can't stand to have things not go your way. Your brother hasn't a leg to stand on, yelling at me for "being mean" to you isn't going to change that. Get over it.

    ViolentChemistry on
  • ShintoShinto __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2007
    Apologizing won't do much if the situation only recurs again.

    Shinto on
  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Fort1tude wrote: »
    Why does everyone have to assume all co-workers must get along? You are right though, it would be spiteful and immature to do that. I will just adopt a "What do I care if she fucks up her child" attitude because it doesnt affect me.
    I have coworkers I don't get along with. What I don't do is make passive aggressive statement at them because I don't like them. I mind my business, they mind theirs, and work goes on better for it because there aren't any petty arguments and bickering diturbing customers, putting people into bad moods, lowering morale, and generally lowering the efficiency.

    Quid on
  • PirateJonPirateJon Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    $5 says the cigs were for someone else.

    PirateJon on
    all perfectionists are mediocre in their own eyes
  • Fort1tudeFort1tude Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Quid wrote: »
    Fort1tude wrote: »
    Why does everyone have to assume all co-workers must get along? You are right though, it would be spiteful and immature to do that. I will just adopt a "What do I care if she fucks up her child" attitude because it doesnt affect me.
    I have coworkers I don't get along with. What I don't do is make passive aggressive statement at them because I don't like them. I mind my business, they mind theirs, and work goes on better for it because there aren't any petty arguments and bickering diturbing customers, putting people into bad moods, lowering morale, and generally lowering the efficiency.

    What part of "I will just not do anything about it and do what I am supposed to by policy" dont you understand. There was no passive aggressive statement there, I am not planning on having an "Attitude" with her. I plan on doing what I said, not giving a fuck about her.

    Fort1tude on
    Steam ID - Fort1tude
  • ArdorArdor Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I don't know if it was 1-2 years ago when there was something similar to what your brother did in a pharmacy where the pharmacist refused to fill someone's prescription of birth control because they believed it to be morally wrong. That pharmacist and a few others in the similar situations were let go from the company because morally right or wrong, their job included the filling of prescriptions.

    Possible apples to oranges, if so I apologize.


    Warning labels do not dictate company policy. If your store policy is to not refuse anyone sale on anything unless prohibited by law, like drugs and alcohol to minors, then you follow it. However, I don't recall any law that states that you cannot sell cigarettes to pregnant women. If your store policy does not have anything explicitly stating to prohibit that sale, you are in the wrong by denying the customer, employee or not, that sale. In the strictest terms, that can lead to the loss of employment.

    EIDT: A quick google and wikipedia search suggest that pregnant women can buy cigarettes with no law preventing them from doing so.

    Ardor on
  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2007
    Quid wrote: »
    Fort1tude wrote: »
    Why does everyone have to assume all co-workers must get along? You are right though, it would be spiteful and immature to do that. I will just adopt a "What do I care if she fucks up her child" attitude because it doesnt affect me.
    I have coworkers I don't get along with. What I don't do is make passive aggressive statement at them because I don't like them. I mind my business, they mind theirs, and work goes on better for it because there aren't any petty arguments and bickering diturbing customers, putting people into bad moods, lowering morale, and generally lowering the efficiency.

    People who have to work together have to be able to work together. They don't have to be a whole crew of BFFs or any nonsense, but you can't have passive-aggressive bullshit flying around.

    Edit: Telling her you won't sell her cigarettes because you don't think pregnant women should smoke is passive-aggressive. The passive-aggression already exists, it's out there in the work atmosphere. Your brother has just made a bunch of his coworker's workdays a lot less fun.

    ViolentChemistry on
  • Fort1tudeFort1tude Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    PirateJon wrote: »
    $5 says the cigs were for someone else.

    They were undoubtably for her, but we do get a lot of her friends in the store either stealing (which we cant prove as we are busy with customers on the other side of the store but shit ends up missing where the people just were) or trying to buy alcohol for people in their cars. I am talking 1 guy barely 21 walking in straight for the 30 packs of natural ice and having about 5 people between 16-19 in their car outside.

    Fort1tude on
    Steam ID - Fort1tude
  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Fort1tude wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    Fort1tude wrote: »
    Why does everyone have to assume all co-workers must get along? You are right though, it would be spiteful and immature to do that. I will just adopt a "What do I care if she fucks up her child" attitude because it doesnt affect me.
    I have coworkers I don't get along with. What I don't do is make passive aggressive statement at them because I don't like them. I mind my business, they mind theirs, and work goes on better for it because there aren't any petty arguments and bickering diturbing customers, putting people into bad moods, lowering morale, and generally lowering the efficiency.

    What part of "I will just not do anything about it and do what I am supposed to by policy" dont you understand. There was no passive aggressive statement there, I am not planning on having an "Attitude" with her. I plan on doing what I said, not giving a fuck about her.
    I'm sorry but I was typing that while you'd posted.

    Quid on
  • SzechuanosaurusSzechuanosaurus Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2007
    There are ways and means of giving a fuck about someone without being antagonistic. A more civilised approach would have been to talk to her about it in a casual manner at another time rather than being judgmental at the point of sale (especially dealing with addicts - the time when they are purchasing their particular vice, is likely to be the worst time to discuss it with them as they are most probably on their way down at that point and will thus be more emotionally charged).

    Szechuanosaurus on
  • Fort1tudeFort1tude Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Ardor wrote: »
    I don't know if it was 1-2 years ago when there was something similar to what your brother did in a pharmacy where the pharmacist refused to fill someone's prescription of birth control because they believed it to be morally wrong. That pharmacist and a few others in the similar situations were let go from the company because morally right or wrong, their job included the filling of prescriptions.

    Possible apples to oranges, if so I apologize.


    Warning labels do not dictate company policy. If your store policy is to not refuse anyone sale on anything unless prohibited by law, like drugs and alcohol to minors, then you follow it. However, I don't recall any law that states that you cannot sell cigarettes to pregnant women. If your store policy does not have anything explicitly stating to prohibit that sale, you are in the wrong by denying the customer, employee or not, that sale. In the strictest terms, that can lead to the loss of employment.

    Yes we have gone over this and I comprehend and will be following this, as I have said, several times already.

    Fort1tude on
    Steam ID - Fort1tude
  • amateurhouramateurhour One day I'll be professionalhour The woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    He's not in the right though. He might be correct that smoking is very dangerous for a developing thing that will eventually become a baby, but it's not illegal. What was illegal was for him to refuse service to another customer based solely on his moral ideals. She could sue him and the company for harrassment, and both her and her possibly cancer ridden smoke baby will live happily ever after with all of the money won, and there's nothing he could do about it. Has he thought of that? The OP(s) need to find a new job where they don't sell cigarettes if it's a problem for them to sell them, not try to change the company policy.

    Everyone has already said it, but your brother needs to apologize, and forget about it, or find a new job, you too.

    amateurhour on

    Arch wrote: »

    I never expected this burn from captain bushmeat
  • Fort1tudeFort1tude Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    There are ways and means of giving a fuck about someone without being antagonistic. A more civilised approach would have been to talk to her about it in a casual manner at another time rather than being judgmental at the point of sale (especially dealing with addicts - the time when they are purchasing their particular vice, is likely to be the worst time to discuss it with them as they are most probably on their way down at that point and will thus be more emotionally charged).

    But I dont care enough to talk with her, I am just going to live and let live. How hard is it for everyone to understand that when I say I am not going to give a fuck about what she does or doesnt do that I dont mean to attach some passive aggressive bullshit to it?

    Fort1tude on
    Steam ID - Fort1tude
  • NarianNarian Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Quid wrote: »
    Fort1tude wrote: »
    Why does everyone have to assume all co-workers must get along? You are right though, it would be spiteful and immature to do that. I will just adopt a "What do I care if she fucks up her child" attitude because it doesnt affect me.
    I have coworkers I don't get along with. What I don't do is make passive aggressive statement at them because I don't like them. I mind my business, they mind theirs, and work goes on better for it because there aren't any petty arguments and bickering diturbing customers, putting people into bad moods, lowering morale, and generally lowering the efficiency.

    People who have to work together have to be able to work together. They don't have to be a whole crew of BFFs or any nonsense, but you can't have passive-aggressive bullshit flying around.

    From reading Fort's posts ,I do not think that his brother was refusing to sell her cigarettes because he hated her or wanted to do some passive-aggressive bullshit as you say, but because he didn't want to sell a pregnant woman cigarettes.

    And Fort, as you said, I'd suggest getting out of a job like the one you have currently because not matter how morally wrong something may be, capitalism will triumph.

    Narian on
    Narian.gif
  • Fort1tudeFort1tude Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    He's not in the right though. He might be correct that smoking is very dangerous for a developing thing that will eventually become a baby, but it's not illegal. What was illegal was for him to refuse service to another customer based solely on his moral ideals. She could sue him and the company for harrassment, and both her and her possibly cancer ridden smoke baby will live happily ever after with all of the money won, and there's nothing he could do about it. Has he thought of that? The OP(s) need to find a new job where they don't sell cigarettes if it's a problem for them to sell them, not try to change the company policy.

    Everyone has already said it, but your brother needs to apologize, and forget about it, or find a new job, you too.

    Its not actually illegal, just against company policy. I dont think it qualifies as harassment because harassment usually has to be more than once and the person has to proclaim in some way that it is not appreciated. I believe thats the case.

    Fort1tude on
    Steam ID - Fort1tude
This discussion has been closed.