Border Fence: 700 miles of stupid or a useful tool?
Luq
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Wikipedia wrote:On September 29, 2006, by a vote of 80 to 19 the U.S. Senate confirmed H.R. 6061 authorizing, and partially funding the "possible" construction of 700 miles (1,125 km) of physical fence/barriers along the border. The very broad support implies that many assurances have been made by the Administration, to the Democrats, Mexico, and the pro "Comprehensive immigration reform" minority within the GOP, that Homeland Security will proceed very cautiously. Michael Chertoff, announced that an eight-month test of the virtual fence, he favors, will precede any construction of a physical barrier. Any large scale fence construction will occur late in the Bush presidency, if at all, prior to a new administration.
On October 26, 2006, President George W. Bush signed H.R. 6061 which was voted upon and passed by the 109th Congress of the United States.[7] The signing of the bill comes right after a CNN poll shows us that most Americans "prefer the idea of more Border Patrol agents to a 700-mile (1,125-kilometer) fence."[8] There is a down payment of $1.2 billion to the Department of Homeland Security marked for border security, but not specifically for the border fence. Link
So we've got a 700 mile fence on a 2000 mile border. Admittedly the border has some other impassable spaces like canyons, but there are still plenty of passable areas. Proponents say that it will be a useful tool in the fight against illegal immigration, and that it will make it easier for border patrol agents to patrol the border. Currently there are around 11,000 Border Patrol agents. We could have as many as 21,000 by 2010 if the US Border Patrol agency is able to hire to the new limits established by Pres. Bush.
From the beginning I thought this idea was laughable, so much so that I did not even consider for a second that it might be of some use. I thought it a hugely inefficient waste of taxpayer money. I'd really like to learn more about this issue. Now I'm guessing that most of this forum will agree with me but I'd like to examine both sides.
Let's get things started.
Pro-fence guy wrote:For all of you naysayers, look at Israel's wall. Effective, no question. Are walls perfect? Heh, no, no solution is perfect but it can help ALOT. The current wall portions along our border have been effective where they exist. Instead of people just parroting "a wall won't work", could you try and explain WHY a wall won't work? Walls work pretty well for military bases, homes, banks, cemetaries, monuments, construction sites, and all other places where one is trying to keep people out. Walls work, especially when combined with guards. Will it be 100% effective? Of course not, and no one is claiming it will be! Will it dramatically reduce the number of ILLEGAL persons and drugs coming into the country daily? Of course.
Sidenote: I'm from Irving, TX. Famed for deporting illegals who are pulled over for minor traffic violations and up. Also looking for a good photo of this border fence for the OP.
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Explanation:
Labor is a commodity. It has it's own special properties like other commodities, and is perhaps unique in many ways, but it's still a commodity. When there is a demand for a commodity in one area and a supply in another area, it is nigh on impossible to prevent movement of that commodity from the latter area to the former. Further, every time we try to prevent a commodity from reaching its demand through law and the intervention of the state, the commodity inevitably gets turned over into the hands of criminals willing to circumvent the law. There literally is not once instance in the history of the State when this has not proved to be the case.
A much more effective method of preventing illegal immigration would be to legalize enough immigration to fulfill the demand on both sides of the border. When the only people unable to cross the border are those with violent criminal records, the trade in illicit transport of humans across said border dries up to almost nothing and becomes prohibitively expensive. I'd be willing to start simply by clearing the many millions of backlogged applications which should be accepted under our quotas.
Right, right. This is the one time we'll make this point in this thread as it's been done to death by every comedian ever. Assuming the wall was built, would it slow illegal immigration and the smuggling of illegal drugs enough to be worth it? That's what I'm getting at. I think I read an article recently where Border Patrol agents were saying that daily they were finding parts of the fence that had been tampered with so people could get through. Can't find it currently though.
I think we need to let the Mexicans build it, hire them by the thousands, and then give them all citizenship when they're done.
Drugs, I doubt it... something that generates that much money always finds a way to make it through.
See, this is what we should be doing. It's a security issue as much as it is an immigration issue to have such a gap in your border. Anyone can waltz in with anything they want. As a child of legal immigrants, I think that it is way too hard to get accepted as an immigrant because of the racist quota system. If we had fair immigration standards that let in anyone who wants to work for an honest wage we would prevent labor abuse, too by keeping everything official.
Illegal immigration isn't nearly as big a deal or bad of a thing as it's made out to be. It's a strawman issue.
Plus, if someone's determined to get into the country for nefarious purposes, it'll take a lot more than a fence or wall to stop them.
See, this is exactly why I support building a wall.
The permissive immigration policies of our neighboring country have allowed terrorists to use them as a stopping point on the way into our borders. We know of at least two terrorists who have crossed into this country on land over that border, and one of them was involved in 9-11.
Consequently, we really have no other option except to build a secure, well-guarded, state-of-the-art wall across the entire border between the US and Canada.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
And, yes I realize that it's kinda cold up there for alligators. That's why we should make sure all the alligators have fur coats.
I hear theyre pretty good at walls too.
Its really stupid. The best part is all the border towns it completely fucks up, and the territory that we cede to Mexico.
Illegal immigration isn't a big deal? I'm guessing by your location that you've never lived in Texas, Arizona, California etc. According to my father, who works in the Dallas County criminal justice system, since Irving TX implemented their policy of deporting illegal immigrants that they discover through criminal offenses (including traffic violations) crime has fallen incredibly dramaticly. I have already emailed him asking for the data so we can use it in this thread. He's not a racist, he's just going by the numbers. I was pretty shocked when he told me about this a couple weeks ago. Hopefully he'll respond soon.
Fur won't help really because they don't produce heat to be contained in the first place. We're going to have to go for something more drastic, like lava moats with some sort of genetically modified lava gators.
If you show me that data, and it looks like a reliable source, I'll concede that point. I don't think it's really as substancial as it's made out to be though. It'd also be interesting to see what kinds of crimes they are exactly. For example, if it's things like murder and rape, obviously that's bad. If it's things like minor traffic violations and marijuana posession, oh well.
Link: http://cityofirving.org/police/pdfs/20-Year-Low.pdf, http://cityofirving.org/police/index.html
Critical Failures - Havenhold Campaign • August St. Cloud (Human Ranger)
Look, illegal immigration is a problem, and the people guilty of it should be punished. (My vote is for a fine, I'm not as forgiving as Reagan was) I don't think it poses nearly the threat that many make it out to, but it is a problem. These people should be paying taxes and getting paid a decent wage. They shouldn't be afraid to report crimes, and they shouldn't be acting as unwitting accomplices to criminal smuggling. The point is that it won't be solved by a fence any more than it would be solved by adding another hundred thousand Border agents. Judging by the number of busts at certified border stations, there's plenty of drugs and people coming across the border at our checkpoints already. Is an unmanned fence going to be any safer? The only way to stop honest people from becoming criminals entering the country illegally is to let honest people into the country legally. Like I said, there's no better way to make it prohibitively expensive for criminals than to legalize it for law-abiding workers.
Anywho, the whole TERRORISTS thing is kind of silly, unless we have credible evidence that terrorists totally sneak across the borders from Canada and Mexico. It's an illegal immigration/drug trafficking question. Our terrorists have all either been home brew or walked in the front door with valid paperwork.
I'm not naive, of course there's a lot of illegal aliens who do migrant work. I doubt they do the payroll tax thing there. But to throw them all into one nice bad-for-America category just doesn't really encompass how ingrained they are in our society.
I read this article (might have even been posted here) about the economy illegal aliens are a part of. They generally don't have bank accounts, etc. So they have to get their checks cashed at those shitty cash checking places. They have to pay their bills with money orders from the same places, etc. All in all they end up having to pay a sizable percentage of their already low income (I think it was somewhere between 5 and 15%) on services just to get by.
Why aren't we investing more time into stopping them?
Because it's politically difficult.
Edit: Because it's politically costly.
More costly than a 700 mile fence?
Heaven forbid someone keep criminals from trespassing onto private property, after being invited to do just that by owners of said property. Have you SEEN what criminal aliens do to farms and ranches that they cross through?
Thankfully, deep crows will be scared off by your massive strawmen.
It's only partly a joke.
The security argument for building a US-Mexico wall is stupid because, like I said, we know of two terrorists who have crossed over by land into the US and both of them came in through Canada. If security were the real concern, we'd be talking about a Canada wall and not a Mexico wall, or we'd be talking about both.
The reason we're talking about a Mexico wall and not a Canada wall? Canadians are rich, white, and speak English. Mexicans are poor, brown, and speak not-English. Any pundit or politician who pretends that this issue is fueled by anything less than simple xenophobia is either deceiving themselves or deceiving the public.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Private? I'm sorry, wasn't aware that the USA was private property.
I'm not trying to strawman, I've already said the fence is stupid, but moronic milita groups are worse
edit: and if you were being serious about the farm comment, yes, I have seen what they do, they stop and work there. Why not pay them a little more and give them citizenship for it.
Wall off Quebec.
What makes you think that when they're legalized and employers no longer have the option of paying them under the minimum wage, there wont still be a demand for illegals?
On the black screen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn2xCpIllTk
You weren't aware that people own land along the border, and that it tends to get trashed, fences cut, livestock killed, houses burglarized..?
Ok, I get it now, you're being sarcastic.
No, but saying that there's such a HUGE problem with destroying land along the border is like saying we need the fence to keep out terrorist and stockpiles of drugs, it's bullshit.
The border won't be sealed because of the profit that illegals guarantee for unethical business owners, and the millions of government employees who depend on a paycheck because of the War on Drugs.
Of course, problems on the border are very complex and extend beyond drugs. The drug trade has done it's part to escalate the problems but the problems also include kidnapping for ransom, sex slavery, local corruption and executions, among other things, and are occurring on both sides of the border. What do you think happens to most of the cars and trucks that are stolen in Texas?
I said politically costly. Building 2000 miles of fence won't cost a Senator his job, but coming out calling these "patriots" xenophobic, racist nuts just might.
Oh there will be. There just won't be any demand for illegal immigration on the other side of the border. Why would you make a dangerous crossing illegally to work for sub-standard wages, increased taxation, less healthcare and reduced police protection when you could come through legally and have all the rights of an American citizen?
Let people in legally, and immigration of the illegal, property damaging, environmentally costly, criminal and drug smuggling sort will dry up. People who say we need to deal with the people who are here illegally first are advancing a position that will necessarily prevent action on this front and perpetuate the problem. They do this because they don't want Mexicans here and they think they can fight market forces. If we want to solve the problem, let's do something that will actually stop the influx and then we can figure out how to deal with the people who are currently here illegally.
EDIT: and incidentally, I believe most Meth is manufactured in America if I'm not mistaken.