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A Wibbly-Wobbly, Timey-Wimey, [Doctor Who] Thread

Red or AliveRed or Alive Registered User regular
edited July 2009 in Debate and/or Discourse
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Most of you know the drill: an extremely long-lived extraterrestrial with loosely defined (but impressive) mastery over time and space explores alien worlds and periods with a number of stoopid hoomans in tow (generally attractive young women, annoying boy geniuses, and mouthy redheads) in his marvellous police box TARDIS. This flexible premise has resulted in the longest-running science-fiction serial in television history (though not without one major hiatus of 16 years, give or take a TV movie) and a milestone in British popular culture.

Even those more or less unaware of the programme and its history are likely to have encountered aspects of the show, most probably the recurring menace of the Daleks (IT'S NOT SPELLED "DARLEK", GAD), roving pepper pots that will engender fear in small children and animals

Anyway, this is the designated area for all torrid fanboy arguments relating to spaces that are bigger on the inside than they are on the outside.

Red or Alive on
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Posts

  • Mojo_JojoMojo_Jojo We are only now beginning to understand the full power and ramifications of sexual intercourse Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    The important thing is that Russell T Davis has finally been removed as head writer. This is enough for me to give the new stuff another chance when it starts up again. Hurray. Although hopefully they will have killed off Catherine Tate by then too.

    Mojo_Jojo on
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  • Zilla360Zilla360 21st Century. |She/Her| Trans* Woman In Aviators Firing A Bazooka. ⚛️Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
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  • APZonerunnerAPZonerunner Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    The final episode of Series Four, Journey's End, was the most-watched programme of the past week, according to unofficial overnights.

    Although the men's final at the Wimbledon Tennis Championships peaked with an audience of 12.7 million, the average for the whole programme was only 7.4 million.

    If this is confirmed when final figures are published by BARB in nine days' time then Journey's End will have achieved the highest chart position in Doctor Who's history.

    The Appreciation Index for the programme was once more 91. It is virtually unprecedented that the most-watched programme of the week should also score one of the highest appreciation figures, for mainstream television, in broadcasting history.

    Sunday's BBC3 repeat got an overnight audience of 0.99 million viewers. It was a 4.4% share of the multichannel audience and the most-watched programme on all multichannel TV for Sunday, with nearly twice the audience of the second-placed Family Guy.

    Saturday's edition of Doctor Who Confidential was watched by a record 1.32 million viewers, the highest ever achieved for this programme. It had a share of 7.6 % and was the most-watched on multichannel television on Saturday. The Sunday repeat had 0.42 million watching.

    Doctor Who was also number one on Friday's multichannel list, with the repeat of The Stolen Earth getting 0.59 million watching. The earlier repeat of Turn Left got 0.35 million viewers and was 12th for the day.

    Both The Stolen Earth and Journey's End will be repeated next Sunday afternoon on BBC1.

    Massive Audience, One of the best Audience Appreciation Index figures ever, Best Chart Ranking in the series 45 history... a fitting end to RTD's era, I think, and something for Moffat to aim to beat. Still.. official confirmation comes next week. History books!

    There's also a very interesting interview with RTD here:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/jul/07/television.bbc

    Choice quotes:
    The arguments he says he won't miss are with people who question Doctor Who's emotional element.

    "It's a drama, he's a character with a full emotional range. It is a very science fiction thing to separate the plot off and dissect a story and talk about, I don't know, the 57 emotional lines spoken by the Doctor."

    He has been as critical of a tiny but vocal minority of Whovians as he is of the Daily Mail, calling them "mosquitoes". Even at the end of his tenure he continues to express regret that some of the obsessives "dominate the agenda".

    "They are not real fandom, though, they are a core of mostly men who like to complain. Fandom is bigger and richer than that, and they are only about 1,000 people who give everyone else a bad name and build their life around a show."
    He is not a man to shy away from controversial comments, and says Tennant's eventual replacement should not be female. "I am often tempted to say yes to that to placate everyone but, while I think kids will not have a problem with [a female Doctor], I think fathers will have a problem with it because they will then imagine they will have to describe sex changes to their children.

    "I think fathers can describe sex changes to their children and I think they should and it's part of the world, but I think it would simply introduce genitalia into family viewing. You're not talking about actresses or style, you're talking about genitalia, and a lot of parents would get embarrassed."

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  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Can we make this a spoiler thread?

    Schrodinger on
  • CyvrosCyvros Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Mojo_Jojo wrote: »
    Although hopefully they will have killed off Catherine Tate by then too.
    I see you haven't watched Saturday's episode, then.
    Can we make this a spoiler thread?

    Might be a good idea. No more continually typing tags (my trackpad is a whole centimetre away from my keyboard - the effort, man, the effort). :D

    Cyvros on
  • PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    So let's say I wanted to start watching this.

    And let's say I've never watched even a single morslet of an episode before.

    Where should I start?

    Drez on
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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Previous Thread:
    area wrote:
    Teaspoon wrote:
    It's like RTD watched Lost and thought, "Fuck, this is awesome, I'm going to copy this," and then completely messing it up because he has no sense of the dramatic.

    In the commentary to last year's finale (small Season 2 Battlestar Galactica spoiler ahead)
    RTD admits to watching the Season 2 BSG finale, seeing 'one year later', and thinking that it was a great idea, so he nabbed it.

    Yes, I had thought previously that RTD was like Moore minus the gigantic balls required to actually do something like that and let it stay that way.

    DevoutlyApathetic on
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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Drez wrote: »
    So let's say I wanted to start watching this.

    And let's say I've never watched even a single morslet of an episode before.

    Where should I start?

    Assuming you can lay hands on it then watching from Season 1 of the new series isn't a bad idea, assuming you have the free time. If you do this make sure you find the Christmas Specials as well. This last bit will make much more sense if you've watched the last 4 seasons.

    DevoutlyApathetic on
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  • TeaSpoonTeaSpoon Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    You should start with the first episode of the 2005 series.

    However, there are episodes in the beginning that are bad enough to turn you away from the show if you're not already hooked. You can revisit them when (and I do mean when) the show grabs you by the neck and won't let go. The newer stuff may require a trip to wikipedia.

    If you want to see the best of Doctor Who, watch the moffat episodes (the empty child, the doctor dances, and blink). They are pretty self contained and reveal nothing you don't already know from glancing at this thread.

    TeaSpoon on
  • SunstrandSunstrand Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    I know it will be near impossible and will be very improbable but I want Sally Sparrow back as a companion. She was brillant, she pretty much carried the entire episode of Blink by herself. I know that alot of people wanted her instead of Donna at first, even though Donna turned out to be awesome.

    Anyways that would br my vote for the next companion, they could even bring the angels back for an episode. I can't even look at an angel statue anymore without thinking instantly of Blink.

    Sunstrand on
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  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    edited July 2008
    Drez wrote: »
    So let's say I wanted to start watching this.

    And let's say I've never watched even a single morslet of an episode before.

    Where should I start?

    Season 1 of the new series is probably the best place to start, or barring that, season 3, which works as a bit of a re-introduction. I wouldn't recommend going back and watching the old show unless you see the new one and decide you just can't have enough; I love O.G. Who, but I have no illusions about its level of cheese.

    Jacobkosh on
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  • Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator mod
    edited July 2008
    So what's the hate for Russell T. Davies? I mean, Moffat is probably the best writer - or at least wrote the best episodes, but Davies isn't bad at all.

    Irond Will on
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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Irond Will wrote: »
    So what's the hate for Russell T. Davies? I mean, Moffat is probably the best writer - or at least wrote the best episodes, but Davies isn't bad at all.
    He lacks balls. Because of his massive lack of balls you know everything will be exactly the same as it was before because magic reset button will be pushed. If that weren't bad enough he tries to steal tricks from authors who do not lack balls and fucks them up, because of his lack of balls.

    DevoutlyApathetic on
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  • TeaSpoonTeaSpoon Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Irond Will wrote: »
    So what's the hate for Russell T. Davies? I mean, Moffat is probably the best writer - or at least wrote the best episodes, but Davies isn't bad at all.

    It's difficult to put my finger on.

    He has no subtlety in his heart.
    He is unwilling to change the status quo (make lasting decisions about important characters (such as death)).
    He builds up momentum but does not follow through.
    His writing is often very clichéd and over-written.
    His plots are based on deus ex machinas and technobabble.
    He feels the need to justify every deus ex machinas and mcguffins with exposition which take precious minutes.
    There is often a lot of fanwankery.

    After this, it becomes nitpicking. Suffice to say, he has a lot of flaws. Yes, he has done a lot of the show. He basically resurrected it and restored it to its former glory, but it's time for him to move on. He's not that terrible a writer, but others can do better. I've become used to the good stuff.

    [EDIT] Oh yes, I forgot to mention. Jesus Doctor. I know people will disagree, but I fucking hate Jesus Doctor and all Jesus Doctor related material. (Such as, "he's like fire" and "this wonderful, wonderful man")

    TeaSpoon on
  • StarcrossStarcross Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    TeaSpoon wrote: »
    Irond Will wrote: »
    So what's the hate for Russell T. Davies? I mean, Moffat is probably the best writer - or at least wrote the best episodes, but Davies isn't bad at all.

    It's difficult to put my finger on.

    He has no subtlety in his heart.
    He is unwilling to change the status quo (make lasting decisions about important characters (such as death)).
    He builds up momentum but does not follow through.
    His writing is often very clichéd and over-written.
    His plots are based on deus ex machinas and technobabble.
    He feels the need to justify every deus ex machinas and mcguffins with exposition which take precious minutes.
    There is often a lot of fanwankery.

    After this, it becomes nitpicking. Suffice to say, he has a lot of flaws. Yes, he has done a lot of the show. He basically resurrected it and restored it to its former glory, but it's time for him to move on. He's not that terrible a writer, but others can do better. I've become used to the good stuff.

    I think, outside of season finales, most of his episodes are pretty good. It's just that he tries to make the finales too epic and has to come up with a deus ex machina ending when he realises he's put the doctor in a situation that can't be solved with a time travelling phonebox and magic screwdriver.

    Starcross on
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Starcross wrote: »
    I think, outside of season finales, most of his episodes are pretty good. It's just that he tries to make the finales too epic and has to come up with a deus ex machina ending when he realises he's put the doctor in a situation that can't be solved with a time travelling phonebox and magic screwdriver.
    Maybe I'm a tougher sell but I wouldn't go with "Pretty Good". His normal episodes are forgettable. I can't think of one of the top of my head that I really thought was good. They were just another episode. Compared with Moffat who writes wonderful things as a matter of course (Really, Girl in the Fireplace was awesome) RTD just doesn't hold a candle to him.

    His reliance on magic reset buttons and "because" endings are less at fault than the fact he doesn't really have interesting stories. Oh no, the world is a giant traffic jam!

    DevoutlyApathetic on
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  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    edited July 2008
    Irond Will wrote: »
    So what's the hate for Russell T. Davies? I mean, Moffat is probably the best writer - or at least wrote the best episodes, but Davies isn't bad at all.

    Take your pick:

    - he's mouthy
    - he's gay
    - he put mouthy gay people in a show
    - he made the mouthy gay guy kiss the Doctor
    - he put a mouthy chav in a show
    - he made the Doctor kiss the chav
    - he said the Doctor has a granddaughter, thus implying that he has had filthybad sex, unlike one hundred percent most extra loyal card-carrying Whovian

    Seriously, I dunno. A lot of it, especially early on, was leftover fannish weirdness from hardcore old-school types. Some of it is legitimate criticism of the show's tone - he really likes to swing for the emotional fences and doesn't hedge his bets with much preemptive irony, so a given episode can either be wrenching and affecting or almost unbearably saccharine and cloying, although hardly any two people seem to consistently agree on which ones are which. A lot of it is casting choices: people who are just bound and determined to hate Catherine Tate because of her show, or the Rose character because of her class. And a lot of it doesn't really make any sense at all.

    Jacobkosh on
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  • TeaSpoonTeaSpoon Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Starcross wrote: »
    TeaSpoon wrote: »
    Irond Will wrote: »
    So what's the hate for Russell T. Davies? I mean, Moffat is probably the best writer - or at least wrote the best episodes, but Davies isn't bad at all.

    It's difficult to put my finger on.

    He has no subtlety in his heart.
    He is unwilling to change the status quo (make lasting decisions about important characters (such as death)).
    He builds up momentum but does not follow through.
    His writing is often very clichéd and over-written.
    His plots are based on deus ex machinas and technobabble.
    He feels the need to justify every deus ex machinas and mcguffins with exposition which take precious minutes.
    There is often a lot of fanwankery.

    After this, it becomes nitpicking. Suffice to say, he has a lot of flaws. Yes, he has done a lot of the show. He basically resurrected it and restored it to its former glory, but it's time for him to move on. He's not that terrible a writer, but others can do better. I've become used to the good stuff.

    I think, outside of season finales, most of his episodes are pretty good. It's just that he tries to make the finales too epic and has to come up with a deus ex machina ending when he realises he's put the doctor in a situation that can't be solved with a time travelling phonebox and magic screwdriver.

    That might be true. I don't pay attention to the writer unless I really hated the episode (which happens with RTD most). According to tv.com, he wrote Midnight, of which I am a fan. Also, Utopia was pretty great, but I think Derek Jacobi had a lot to do with that.

    TeaSpoon on
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    TeaSpoon wrote: »
    That might be true. I don't pay attention to the writer unless I really hated the episode (which happens with RTD most). According to tv.com, he wrote Midnight, of which I am a fan. Also, Utopia was pretty great, but I think Derek Jacobi had a lot to do with that.
    I just clicked through wiki looking at who wrote what and Midnight was the only Davies episode I'd really liked and remembered.

    DevoutlyApathetic on
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  • Zilla360Zilla360 21st Century. |She/Her| Trans* Woman In Aviators Firing A Bazooka. ⚛️Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    jacobkosh wrote: »
    - he's gay
    Just to clarify, you're not homophobic?

    Zilla360 on
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  • Zilla360Zilla360 21st Century. |She/Her| Trans* Woman In Aviators Firing A Bazooka. ⚛️Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Pony wrote: »
    Send me that map/TARDIS model and I'll buy Garry's Mod right here, right now. :D

    Zilla360 on
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  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    edited July 2008
    Zilla360 wrote: »
    jacobkosh wrote: »
    - he's gay
    Just to clarify, you're not homophobic?

    Correct. I'm enumerating other people's problems with RTD, not my own.

    Jacobkosh on
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  • Dr SnofeldDr Snofeld Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    jacobkosh wrote: »
    - he said the Doctor has a granddaughter, thus implying that he has had filthybad sex, unlike one hundred percent most extra loyal card-carrying Whovian

    You mean the granddaughter that travelled with the First Doctor?

    Dr Snofeld on
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  • Mojo_JojoMojo_Jojo We are only now beginning to understand the full power and ramifications of sexual intercourse Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    jacobkosh wrote: »
    Zilla360 wrote: »
    jacobkosh wrote: »
    - he's gay
    Just to clarify, you're not homophobic?

    Correct. I'm enumerating other people's problems with RTD, not my own.
    I think RTD's sexuality is what he likes to pretend people have a problem with. Really, it's just that he managed to land a job which required much more than he could deliver in terms of stories.

    Mojo_Jojo on
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  • Zilla360Zilla360 21st Century. |She/Her| Trans* Woman In Aviators Firing A Bazooka. ⚛️Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    They could mine a lot of great stories from the books if Moffat ever needs a break.

    The Jade Pagoda stuff is all very interesting.

    Zilla360 on
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  • EddieDeanEddieDean Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    They already have done a bit of mining (which I have absolutely no problem with), with a decent level of success.

    Human Nature/Family of Blood were taken from a book, I believe. And a couple of others too, I think.

    EddieDean on
  • CantideCantide Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    I'd like it if they adapted some of the audio stories for television, like they half did with Shearman's "Jubilee" / "Dalek" in season one. Big Finish has put out some excellent stuff over the years.

    Really, I just want more Rob Shearman episodes.

    Cantide on
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    edited July 2008
    Dr Snofeld wrote: »
    jacobkosh wrote: »
    - he said the Doctor has a granddaughter, thus implying that he has had filthybad sex, unlike one hundred percent most extra loyal card-carrying Whovian

    You mean the granddaughter that travelled with the First Doctor?

    Yes, which got retconned into "she just called him grandfather as a term of affection" in the books because hardcore old-school Who fans have issues about the idea that he reproduced.

    Jacobkosh on
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  • rattletraprattletrap Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    jacobkosh wrote: »
    Dr Snofeld wrote: »
    jacobkosh wrote: »
    - he said the Doctor has a granddaughter, thus implying that he has had filthybad sex, unlike one hundred percent most extra loyal card-carrying Whovian

    You mean the granddaughter that travelled with the First Doctor?

    Yes, which got retconned into "she just called him grandfather as a term of affection" in the books because hardcore old-school Who fans have issues about the idea that he reproduced.

    Which I'm glad the new series put a kibosh on with the Doc talking about his family and marriage and kids. Denying that stuff is just crazy.

    I wonder if the same people who cling so hard to the Doctor's vow of chastity are the same people who have trouble with the Doctor=Jesus stuff in the new series.

    rattletrap on
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    edited July 2008
    Mojo_Jojo wrote: »
    I think RTD's sexuality is what he likes to pretend people have a problem with. Really, it's just that he managed to land a job which required much more than he could deliver in terms of stories.

    That's a nice thing to think that doesn't really jibe with what I've read on the sewers of the internets.

    Jacobkosh on
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  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited July 2008
    jacobkosh wrote: »
    Mojo_Jojo wrote: »
    I think RTD's sexuality is what he likes to pretend people have a problem with. Really, it's just that he managed to land a job which required much more than he could deliver in terms of stories.

    That's a nice thing to think that doesn't really jibe with what I've read on the sewers of the internets.

    Or the press, large parts of which repeatedly accuse him of "forcing his gay agenda" into Doctor Who. And, no, agenda is not a euphemism.

    Bogart on
  • XagarathXagarath Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    RTD wrote Midnight.
    That gets him a pass in my book.

    Not to mention that without him we wouldn't have the show back at all.
    Yes, all the final episodes are terrible, but everything else more than makes up for it.

    Xagarath on
  • CyvrosCyvros Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    TeaSpoon wrote: »
    If you want to see the best of Doctor Who, watch the moffat episodes (the empty child, the doctor dances, and blink). They are pretty self contained and reveal nothing you don't already know from glancing at this thread.

    Also Human Nature/The Family of Blood from last year. Along with Moffat, Paul Cornell is probably one of the better new series writers (having done a few novels in the past, as well as the Shalka webcast). Never actually finished reading the book it's based off, but from what I did get through, I preferred the TV version.
    TeaSpoon wrote: »
    [EDIT] Oh yes, I forgot to mention. Jesus Doctor. I know people will disagree, but I fucking hate Jesus Doctor and all Jesus Doctor related material. (Such as, "he's like fire" and "this wonderful, wonderful man")

    That was just pure wank. I find most of his stuff isn't too crap if you're just sitting down and letting it wash over for the pure enjoyment of it, but not even Jesus Doctor makes it through this process.
    Zilla360 wrote: »
    They could mine a lot of great stories from the books if Moffat ever needs a break.

    The Jade Pagoda stuff is all very interesting.

    Iceberg (only one of the Jade Pagoda novels I read). Definitely one of my favourite NAs made even better by the fact that the Cyberleader wrote it (David Banks also played the Doctor a couple of times in the '89 stage show when Pertwee was unable to).

    I've also heard that the opening Timewyrm (sp?) books were pretty good, too. There's a crapload of awesome material in the Virgin and BBC books (as well as BF audios) that really should be put on screen.

    Cyvros on
  • TeaSpoonTeaSpoon Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    You know, I've been wondering.

    Are we entirely sure the Doctor even has the... needed bits for human-like procreation? I mean, he has two hearts, so not everything is the same. There have been hints, like the doctor claiming he has "danced" before, but nothing right-in-your-face conclusive, right?

    You can bypass the whole sex discussion with the Doctor simply by making him a grand-father by other means, like asexual reproduction or machine womb testtube babies or whatever. I just want whatever grand-children to share the Doctor's DNA.

    TeaSpoon on
  • CyvrosCyvros Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Well, if you take the NAs as canon, Gallifreyans did it before some curse made the planet sterile, so they had Looms that would weave (I think that was the term used) Gallifreyans out of genetic material.

    If you really take the NAs as canon, then that's how the whole Other-Doctor reincarnation business took place.

    Cyvros on
  • Bad KittyBad Kitty Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    I just recently got into the new Doctor Who. A lot of it is pretty cliche'd and I'm not a big fan of the speeches. From what I'm understanding most of that is the fault of RTD, although I really loved Midnight. Blink was probably my favourite episode despite the fact that the Doctor only shows up for a few minutes, and I'm glad that Moffat is going to become head writer. I have never been more frightened of stone angels, and it's the first time I've ever been scared from a TV episode.

    As for the Doctor's companions, I love Rose and how important she was to the Doctor even after her term was up. Also it felt more like the Doctor had an extended family what with Mickey, Jackie, and Captain Jack running around. I hate hate hate Donna and they were a little too late in making her sympathetic or likeable. Martha Jones was kind of a non-entity but was pretty cool in her finale, and the Doctor was actually competent rather than relying on a deus ex machina.

    Bad Kitty on
  • XagarathXagarath Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Cyvros wrote: »
    Well, if you take the NAs as canon, Gallifreyans did it before some curse made the planet sterile, so they had Looms that would weave (I think that was the term used) Gallifreyans out of genetic material.

    If you really take the NAs as canon, then that's how the whole Other-Doctor reincarnation business took place.

    Of course, since the NAs aren't canon, insofar as there's a canon at all, this is all a little spurious.
    New series has stated that the Doctor was a father the conventional way, old series gave him a grand-daughter. There's a pretty strong indication there that Time Lords have something akin to normal human procreation.

    Off-topic: Not enough people read Gunnerkirgg Court.

    Xagarath on
  • CyvrosCyvros Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Giggidy giggidy? :P

    Cyvros on
  • APZonerunnerAPZonerunner Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Well, considering Donna seemingly looked at his crotch and said "You're naked!" and not "Time Lords don't have a...?!?!" in this last episode, I'm going to guess that he indeed has a penis and will be making babies with Rose in the parallel universe, a fact that I'm sure will be debated by fans in new series 25 or something. "Parallel doctor's babies to show up?!" - the same way everyone's ranting about Jenny being a cert for series 5 now.

    And River Song, actually - loads of people on OG saying she'll be in series 5. I think they're kind of missing the point of River's story by thinking this, though.

    APZonerunner on
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