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Knife Crime, or how a short sharp shock is not the answer
Leitner
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
So, apparently England is having a real problem with knives right now, with stabbings on the increase, number of fatal stabbings already having broken nineteen this year in London and averaging over two hundred and fifty deaths a year, with a marked increase in general levels of violent crime all round. It is no longer questionable, Britain is undergoing a surge in the levels of youth violence.
The causes of this are indistinct and almost certainly multi-faceted, many have suggested that the growth of gang culture is to blame, the breakdown of the family environment or the loss of strong moral values in a culture of tolerance and cultural relativism taken too far. Obviously some of these claims are weak tabloid sensationalism, but the increase in gang activity is notable, with the number of gangs in London more then doubling in the last ten years, and a growth in ‘unprofessional’ gangs, more likely to indulge in low level of violent crimes, use far more force then necessary, fracture into competing gangs, and be involved in gang warfare, in which many innocents suffer.
To combat this both parties have promised to be ‘tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime’. This led to the introduction recently of a bill making possession of a knife in a public place a crime with a threat of up to three years in jail, and the ability for police to issue a caution or use their own discretion was effectively removed. Since that point two hundred youths in random stop and searches have been found with knives, and ninety five percent of them arrested.
This law is quite simply not the answer. The symptoms of the cause need to be tackled to have any effect, something that this law simply does not do. However, if this was the only problem I would not be so bothered by it, I mean putting aside the questionable act of making what can genuinely be used as a tool illegal, far too close reminiscent of thought crime. No this law is far worse than that, it will only serve to perpetuate the problem.
200 - Knives seized in two weeks during recent stop-and-search operations in London
10% - Of 11-to 12-year-olds admit carrying a knife in the past year
25% - Of 15-to 16-year-olds admit the same
20% - Of 16-year-olds say they have used a knife with intention of seriously harming someone
3.5 - Times more knife crimes committed in Scotland than in England or Wales
57% - Of excluded pupils aged 11 to 17 admit carrying knives
29% - Of pupils in London have carried knives
Sources: BCS; Metropolitan Police; www.crimeinfo.org.uk; Youth Justice Board
Yes that’s right, one in three London youths carry knives, one third of youths under this law serve to be criminalised. It is even worse in those already heading towards a future in violence and crime. Not only will all these people be further alienated from the police forces, they will see them as a threat, putting away their friends for little reason. This can only serve to worsen the us vs them mentality held by many, which is damaging to the community. It also sends many into the system, which will only serve to railroad them into a life of crime.
It has been proven time after time that putting people away destroys any future they might have, what do kids do when they’re three years behind their peers, having been living in an environment full of professional criminals and gangsters, with absolutely no job opportunities and their connections offering them easy money in crime? This is ignoring the fact that many children do in fact carry knives for self defence, yes it has been proven that you’re more likely to be a stabbing victim, but when you live on what can generously be called a mad max esque shithole, and are surrounded by roving gangs of thugs with something to prove, and the constant media reminder that the police will do nothing to help, and probably piss in your eye if you turn to them, the thought of needing some protection is entirely understandable, hell if I lived on some of these estates I’d probably start carrying around a broadsword in my trousers. Removing the one thing that lets them feel safe (even if it is unlikely to help) only serves to turn them into criminals or engender a great fear in the police, or drive them into the protection promised by the gangs.
This is ignoring the fact that getting their hands on knives is trivial for any kid who wants one making seizing knives a waste of time. The kitchen knife being the most common type used in murders, not the multi bladed foot long serrated samurai swords portrayed on the news, and what kid doesn’t have immediate access to one of those? The idea that this will scare youths into not carrying is also unlikely to prove true, though time will tell.
In summary, not only is this law useless. It is actively harmful, not only does it fail to help cure the root problem, it exacerbates the symptoms.
p.s. please do not discuss either guns (as a solution to knife crime) or the constitution, if you really must base your view of a law off such a piece, the Magna Carta is acceptable I guess.
The causes of this are indistinct and almost certainly multi-faceted, many have suggested that the growth of gang culture is to blame, the breakdown of the family environment or the loss of strong moral values in a culture of tolerance and cultural relativism taken too far. Obviously some of these claims are weak tabloid sensationalism, but the increase in gang activity is notable, with the number of gangs in London more then doubling in the last ten years, and a growth in ‘unprofessional’ gangs, more likely to indulge in low level of violent crimes, use far more force then necessary, fracture into competing gangs, and be involved in gang warfare, in which many innocents suffer.
To combat this both parties have promised to be ‘tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime’. This led to the introduction recently of a bill making possession of a knife in a public place a crime with a threat of up to three years in jail, and the ability for police to issue a caution or use their own discretion was effectively removed. Since that point two hundred youths in random stop and searches have been found with knives, and ninety five percent of them arrested.
This law is quite simply not the answer. The symptoms of the cause need to be tackled to have any effect, something that this law simply does not do. However, if this was the only problem I would not be so bothered by it, I mean putting aside the questionable act of making what can genuinely be used as a tool illegal, far too close reminiscent of thought crime. No this law is far worse than that, it will only serve to perpetuate the problem.
200 - Knives seized in two weeks during recent stop-and-search operations in London
10% - Of 11-to 12-year-olds admit carrying a knife in the past year
25% - Of 15-to 16-year-olds admit the same
20% - Of 16-year-olds say they have used a knife with intention of seriously harming someone
3.5 - Times more knife crimes committed in Scotland than in England or Wales
57% - Of excluded pupils aged 11 to 17 admit carrying knives
29% - Of pupils in London have carried knives
Sources: BCS; Metropolitan Police; www.crimeinfo.org.uk; Youth Justice Board
Yes that’s right, one in three London youths carry knives, one third of youths under this law serve to be criminalised. It is even worse in those already heading towards a future in violence and crime. Not only will all these people be further alienated from the police forces, they will see them as a threat, putting away their friends for little reason. This can only serve to worsen the us vs them mentality held by many, which is damaging to the community. It also sends many into the system, which will only serve to railroad them into a life of crime.
It has been proven time after time that putting people away destroys any future they might have, what do kids do when they’re three years behind their peers, having been living in an environment full of professional criminals and gangsters, with absolutely no job opportunities and their connections offering them easy money in crime? This is ignoring the fact that many children do in fact carry knives for self defence, yes it has been proven that you’re more likely to be a stabbing victim, but when you live on what can generously be called a mad max esque shithole, and are surrounded by roving gangs of thugs with something to prove, and the constant media reminder that the police will do nothing to help, and probably piss in your eye if you turn to them, the thought of needing some protection is entirely understandable, hell if I lived on some of these estates I’d probably start carrying around a broadsword in my trousers. Removing the one thing that lets them feel safe (even if it is unlikely to help) only serves to turn them into criminals or engender a great fear in the police, or drive them into the protection promised by the gangs.
This is ignoring the fact that getting their hands on knives is trivial for any kid who wants one making seizing knives a waste of time. The kitchen knife being the most common type used in murders, not the multi bladed foot long serrated samurai swords portrayed on the news, and what kid doesn’t have immediate access to one of those? The idea that this will scare youths into not carrying is also unlikely to prove true, though time will tell.
In summary, not only is this law useless. It is actively harmful, not only does it fail to help cure the root problem, it exacerbates the symptoms.
p.s. please do not discuss either guns (as a solution to knife crime) or the constitution, if you really must base your view of a law off such a piece, the Magna Carta is acceptable I guess.
Leitner on
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You could remove every weapon from the planet and people would be beating each other to death with rakes and hoes.
I think the punishment should be more along the lines of a fine levied against both the individual and their legal guardian. Maybe throw in a 1 or 2 day course on knife violence and how it impacts the community that both the offender and their guardian must attend to avoid the fine.
MWO: Adamski
Because I'm thinking that for the sheer number of people who carry a knife, the number of actual stabbings is tiny, tiny, tiny - vanishingly small.
I'm guessing that in spite of the "dramatic increase in stabbings" that the actual number of stabbings is a tiny drop in the bucket compared to the number of people carrying knives.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.
Pageviews and ad sales. Fear mongering sells.
If you takes knives away from people, they are going to switch to bats, or brass knuckles, or something.
People will always find ways of killing each other.
Regardless of all that, I think certain kinds of knives should be outlawed, while others can be carried around. I mean, every kid I knew (including myself) owned a knife of some sort, though they weren't for stabbing.
Get rid of the big ones that are only/mainly used as weaponry.
The big fuck off shiny knives as they say arent the ones commonly used in knife crime. They are somewhat more difficult to come by and more expensive to replace. The people who are holding them are less likely to use them for stabbing / cutting and more likely to use them as intimidation.
Its the people carrying around the $5 kitchen knife they got at the grocery store that are more likely to use the disposable weapon.
Similar to how the number of assault weapons used in crimes in the US is extremely small compared to the number of hunting rifles and handguns used in crimes.
MWO: Adamski
It just sounds absurd to me for some reason.
Edit: The OP seems to have a problem with kids running around with knives, so why not make it harder to buy knives of any kind?
Because that's stupid. You can kill someone easily with any blunt, rigid object. Are you going to make it harder to buy that, too?
And by make it harder, I mean, affix an age requirement for purchasing knives. Is there really a big problem with that? I can't see many young folks having a use for kitchen utensils anyway.
Unless someone's sick, dying grandmother sends them to the store to by a replacement cleaver.
I've heard this regarding the US and their media, but it would be interesting to know whether its the same in the UK.
Also, my mum would sort shit out. These kids wouldn't carry blades for 'cred' if they knew they ran the risk of being smacked bareassed in the street!
"Mum, get off! I'm sixteen!" *shameless ripoff of Peter Kay*
Seriously. My mum is 4,8" of pure fury.
*EDIT*
Bah, beated...that's what I get for trying to post at work with people bothering me.
I pretty much always have my pocket-knife on me, but its one of those tiny leatherman pliers/knife tools. I'm sure it could be used as a deadly weapon by someone determined enough, but so could a pair of scissors or a phone cord. Outlawing the tool is not the answer, you have to resolve whatever it is that is causing these kids to want to stab each other.
I live in London now.
I had a swiss army knife that I used to use as a keyring. It was a gift, had my initials on it etc. I didnt even think about it. I went to a club one night and the bouncer stops me and 2 seconds later announces to the other staff/clerks etc, "This guy's got a blade".
Me:
In the end, they were pretty cool about it and let me pick it up at the end of the night... But I took it off and havent carried it since. I was shocked how much I missed it. But you cannot do that here now.
Which would include things such as kitchen knives and larger utility blades. What about people who require these tools for their job? Is there anything to protect workmen from being classed as criminals simply for having their tools?
I was pointing out that Fallingman can still carry his pen knife. I agree with you that you can't ban kitchen knives.
Someone who just bought a kitchen knife would.
A Sushi Chef would have a big fuck off knife in public.
As to why he would be running I don't know, maybe he's being chased by a kid with a hammer.
Of course if someone wants to kill someone, they'll find a way to do it. I'd guess that preventing people from carrying knives around for no reason is definitely going to reduce the number stabbings that are the result of crimes of passion, though.
I don't see why this would be a problem.
Most people don't carry around kitchen knives in public. If you just bought them, keep them in a bag with the receipt until you get home, or something similar.
Aside from the "What if you just bought them" argument, there is no sane reason for someone to have a kitchen knife in public.
Now, I'm aware of the wider issues involved with this kind of violence, so I'll refrain from a rant that I usually save for teen pregnancy - but the fact is that the UK is having a debate about child-crime, and the frequency that people actually even mention parents - I find really disturbing. I know that they cant control the wider world, I know that they have to work just to make ends meet... But why are we not exploring ways to help those that want it, and stop those that dont from abandoning kids in the most difficult years of their development?
That really depends on your definition of "public."
Assuming you mean public as in the middle of the street, yes, I'd assume someone with a kitchen knife there to probably not have a good reason. There are people who I would expect to have some fairly large knives out in the middle of the street, however, like workmen or linesmen or similar.
Can you genuinely not comprehend a scenario in which someone might use a kitchen knife maliciously? Young, teenage members of gangs acquire most of their weapons by opportunity. It's these sort of people who are far more likely to possess and use a kitchen knife on the street, not your average person. They can steal them from shops, find them in rubbish, nick from their own homes kitchens.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.
I am saying that I don't see what the problem if with that aspect (the kitchen knife argument) of it.
I don't think most people need to carry knives around that have a large blade on them. Of course the law needs to be fixed somewhat (3 years just for being in possession of one? Of course workers need to be exempted depending on the job) but for the most part, a pocketknife wouldn't be breaking this law.
Also, when I proposed that making it harder to buy knives of any kind, it was instantly shot down and then called stupid, which didn't make sense to me.
I'm not arguing that kitchen knives aren't used in crimes, I am saying that the law for buying them could be made stronger without all this hubub.
I've carried a folding blade every day since I was 15. The knife I carry now has a 3.5'' blade. Shit, sometimes I carry two knives (one a utility, one just a blade). I couldn't imagine being without it, I use it a few times every day.
You don't need a kitchen knife to kill someone. To be honest, I would have an easier time of it with the 3.5'' blade I carry (easy to fight with it held to the side, used in mostly slashing movements). Its also assisted opening, so its extremely easy to conceal and deploy.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.
Hell, most utility knives are 3 - 4 inches long, meaning if you wanted, you could easily buy a legal, 3 inch blade and carry it around, so the people complaining about that can stop.
The average Swiss Army-type knife doesn't even have 3 inch blades on it.
So, while locking someone up for 3 years just because they have a knife with a blade larger than 3 inches is BS, most people (not looking to harm others) wouldn't be carrying around a knife that would be considered illegal.
Excuse me for thinking that attempting to reduce the availability of one of the most ubiquitous tools known to man is tilting at windmills.
Honestly, this law does nothing to address the underlying problems and will merely send a bunch of youths to prison so they can grow up into proper thugs.
I would, however like to know if there are any allowances for workers, or if it's poorly written in addition to being poorly conceived.
My point is that it's useless to try and take something from people when they can make it in their home in about ten minutes. A better idea is to make them not want to kill each other. I'm not sure how to go about doing that however.
Heh, in fact I found this article while looking for it: Are the courts too soft on young offenders?
Well, this is my concern. Would he? Or would you.
Well I like to think my boss isn't a retard as you seem to think the cops are.
Police are not just robots set to arrest everyone they see that have knives on them.