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Just looking for some crits Edit: 8/20/08 Sundown

Radar6590Radar6590 Registered User regular
edited August 2008 in Artist's Corner
Been a while since I've posted here, but I figured I'd throw up some new artwork in the hopes of further improving. Critique away. Also, beware... there's quite a few.
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My DeviantArt
Loomdun wrote: »
...And I am being hulked enraged by multiple things right now and I will destroy you
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    MustangMustang Arbiter of Unpopular Opinions Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    I'm finding some of your foreshortening overexaggerated. They're all pretty nice though, I'm struggling to find any major faults.

    This though....
    4b31cbbe8419255f88eed0a2f1aa913b.jpg
    Total mess, throw it away.

    Mustang on
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    NakedZerglingNakedZergling A more apocalyptic post apocalypse Portland OregonRegistered User regular
    edited July 2008
    how do you get such crisp lines?

    NakedZergling on
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    Radar6590Radar6590 Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Mustang - Interesting thing to say. Can you tell me why, specifically, so I don't do whatever I did in the future? I'm assuming you mean the strange perspective on it that doesn't quite work. Possibly the thinness of the forearm, and maybe the placement of the feet in terms of his balance should the perspective be normal, but I can't be sure.

    NakedZergling - A lot of people ask me this, and to be honest these aren't really as "crisp" as my lines can be, though usually if I go that far I end up not adding line weights so it doesn't look as good anyways, lol.

    Ok, so anyway I do a few things to get clean lines. The first is that I work at pretty big sizes. The originals for all of these are 8x10, 300 DPI, which is like 3000 pixels by 2000-something. So when I shrink them it makes any errors int he lines harder to see. Usually these days I use a size seven hard brush in photoshop and just go over the lines a lot (like just draw a small section of the line, draw the next section, erase any odd bumps) if I want them real clean (Been getting better at just drawing confident lines, though). I also do a number of re-sketches on layers under the final lines, so I'm messy at first.

    This isn't EXACTLY what I do for every picture, but this link shows basically how I go about it: http://ihmpcypawb.deviantart.com/art/The-Process-74972689

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    Loomdun wrote: »
    ...And I am being hulked enraged by multiple things right now and I will destroy you
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    GreatnationGreatnation Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    I admire your attempts at really crazy foreshortening, but I do think you ought to reel it in a little. Foreshortening like that happens when the camera is like inches away from the thing closest to it. With that in mind, the rest your forms aren't appropriately sized for that distance, and they look distorted. Like the hand one, it looks like is arm is five feet long.


    2ndly, i'd try to be more sensitive to the textures you are describing when you render, and to the subtleties of the form. Some of your forms make more sense in just line, and the rendering seems to disagree with the lines. Also, you tend to render skin and clothes and metal all the same way.

    Otherwise good work, you seem to have you're proportions in order and your urge for the dynamic I like.

    Greatnation on
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    MustangMustang Arbiter of Unpopular Opinions Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Radar6590 wrote: »
    Mustang - Interesting thing to say. Can you tell me why, specifically, so I don't do whatever I did in the future? I'm assuming you mean the strange perspective on it that doesn't quite work. Possibly the thinness of the forearm, and maybe the placement of the feet in terms of his balance should the perspective be normal, but I can't be sure.

    You've picked most of it all up yourself, the other is the perspective on the left hand eye. I can see you've rotated it for the curvature of the head but you've overdone it.
    Also the right hand side of his chest isn't protruding far enough, it looks as though a big chunk of it has been taken off. Even for a skinny guy, it should stick out further.

    It's a tricky as fuck angle you've tried to draw from so major props for trying. I know I'd tear my dick off in frustration and beat someone to death with it if I attempting that.

    Mustang on
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    Radar6590Radar6590 Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Thanks, both of you. I'll try to keep these things in mind. What I've been finding is that a lot of people say what you do. That my stuff doesn't have many glaring errors in it. (I do love my foreshortening, though, lol) But it's definitely not at a professional level, so even small things really help me out. :)

    Kinda hoping when I start college in a month my professors'll rip me apart so I can improve real quickly, heh.

    Radar6590 on
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    Loomdun wrote: »
    ...And I am being hulked enraged by multiple things right now and I will destroy you
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    IrukaIruka Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited July 2008
    i'd try to be more sensitive to the textures you are describing when you render, and to the subtleties of the form. Some of your forms make more sense in just line, and the rendering seems to disagree with the lines. Also, you tend to render skin and clothes and metal all the same way.

    This. Also, expand your color pallet when you are shading. You aren't doing the dreaded highlight with white and shade with black, but some thing still off. You seem to be adding blue or purple more as a default than making more educated decisions about your color. I encourage you to study colors a bit.

    Iruka on
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    Radar6590Radar6590 Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Actually, it was only recently that I stopped moving towards white for highlights and black for shading. >_> Sad, I know, but I am just getting more used to using other colors. Definitely something to keep in mind, though. When you say study, do you just mean practice with them, or do you have any books you could maybe recommend?

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    Loomdun wrote: »
    ...And I am being hulked enraged by multiple things right now and I will destroy you
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    IrukaIruka Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited July 2008
    No, just practice and when you're looking at art or anything, really take the time to notice the color. Color is a really big thing and there are many ways to approch it, but I suggest looking at oil paintings and a other traditional media to start to get ideas. Many colors can go into something and still have it look like one, color is strange like that.

    Craig mullins is an example.

    Iruka on
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    Tender WolfTender Wolf __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2008
    i admire your work

    Tender Wolf on
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    beavotronbeavotron Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    the plain inked pieces are so much better than the colored.
    It's partially do with poor color choice as Iruka pointed out, but it's also the brushes you are using, that super soft smudgy look is really flattening the pieces out.

    try maybe a more cel-shaded style, i think it would compliment the linework a lot better than this soft airbrush approach.

    beavotron on
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    Radar6590Radar6590 Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Iruka - Ok, practice makes perfect, I guess. :)

    Tender Wolf - Thank you!

    Beavotron - Man, you're right, I haven't cell shaded anything in forever. Also, I know this isn't really that great (the colors burn my eyes, really), but it was drawn for a friend and this was how the character was described to me, so this is what I drew. It's probably my only attempt at cell shading since I started not just using "black to white" coloring.
    1234e0dec1e4832376cad857e45d98b4.jpg

    Also, figure I'd throw up some other work I've done since I started this thread:
    835feb012643be1e56c62fcebd6e0354.jpg

    603738fb1772420db598763602a59da8.jpg
    And someone tell me how the frick they'd draw this from some different angles. I realized that with a lot of really dynamic poses I use really static angles, so I'm trying to fix that. Only I SUCK AT IT. The pencil sketch I did and then I was like: "Huh, that's a dumb angle." So I sketched out the others in a few minutes.

    blehgg3.jpg

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    Loomdun wrote: »
    ...And I am being hulked enraged by multiple things right now and I will destroy you
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    MustangMustang Arbiter of Unpopular Opinions Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    I think Beavo was onto something there, the cell shading definately suits better.

    Mustang on
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    falconirefalconire Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Very awesome, very awesome.

    falconire on
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    beavotronbeavotron Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    yes. heaps better.

    beavotron on
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    Radar6590Radar6590 Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Thanks guys. Tried cell shading my latest work, too.

    charactercoloruk5.jpg

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    Loomdun wrote: »
    ...And I am being hulked enraged by multiple things right now and I will destroy you
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    IrukaIruka Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited July 2008
    Hope you dont mind a paint over. I cant really describe accurate, but your colors are a little bland
    drawoverradar.jpg
    Thats not a crit on cell shading, just on your limited spectrum, its very gray. Mix it up for better hot or cool effects. Im kinda always hot but you can tone it down and still have a more interesting pallet.

    Iruka on
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    MustangMustang Arbiter of Unpopular Opinions Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Why purple in each spectrum Iruka? When it comes to colours, my knowledge = fuck all.

    Mustang on
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    Radar6590Radar6590 Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Shades tend to go towards cooler colors, though purple is traditionally considered warm, I believe. For shades, it's the combination of blue and red that allow it to seem that way, which is why she said she likes hot color effects. And then of course highlights tend to go towards warmer colors, depending on the atmosphere.

    Anyway, what I said, to me, are just words. I know the concept, but am unable to put it into practice.

    Thanks for the tip, Iruka. Makes it look awesome, I'll see what I can do with colors next time.

    Radar6590 on
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    Loomdun wrote: »
    ...And I am being hulked enraged by multiple things right now and I will destroy you
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    Radar6590Radar6590 Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Here's some color tests I did tonight, just messing with hots and colds. Iruka, I sent you a note on DA asking a few specific questions on these if you haven't gotten that. I figure it'd be redundant to repeat them here. As a note, the lighting wasn't necessarily supposed to be "correct" on these, it was more how the colors affected the image than me actually coloring them.

    colortestbs8.jpg

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    Loomdun wrote: »
    ...And I am being hulked enraged by multiple things right now and I will destroy you
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    MykonosMykonos Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    if you wanted to test out different color schemes, your best bet is just slide the hue slider in photoshop until you find something that interest you. The first panel looks pretty good but the pants on the second one seems more like a sandwich of changing color than anything else and seems a bit messy. Also, color aside, you may wanna do a value test. try looking at your image in greyscale and see if you see have the needed range of darks and lights.

    Mykonos on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    "I was born; six gun in my hand; behind the gun; I make my final stand"~Bad Company
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    Radar6590Radar6590 Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Mykonos wrote: »
    if you wanted to test out different color schemes, your best bet is just slide the hue slider in photoshop until you find something that interest you. The first panel looks pretty good but the pants on the second one seems more like a sandwich of changing color than anything else and seems a bit messy. Also, color aside, you may wanna do a value test. try looking at your image in greyscale and see if you see have the needed range of darks and lights.
    As a note, the lighting wasn't necessarily supposed to be "correct" on these, it was more how the colors affected the image than me actually coloring them.

    Which isn't just an excuse, I am just trying to learn color right now. Though value is something I do not really take into consideration, and I will keep that in mind. The coloring is sloppy because I was just looking at color, and nothing else.

    Also, the hue slider can be ok, but I am really trying to learn how to pick colors for myself, and there is more that comes into consideration besides just the hue of it. Saturation, and brightness are also part of the overall effect, and it's more fun for me to actually know what I'm doing than play with sliders for an hour. *shrug*

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    Loomdun wrote: »
    ...And I am being hulked enraged by multiple things right now and I will destroy you
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    MustangMustang Arbiter of Unpopular Opinions Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    The purple comes across as reflected colour from an external light source.

    Mustang on
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    IrukaIruka Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited July 2008
    If you're going to color with value, You cant really ignore value in favor for color, Lighting can change a color scheme completely after all.

    I was going to make a coloring tutorial a long time ago, but fuck if I did. I did manage to ruff out the beginning of it though, Maybe I can use these images to help you.
    Albers Square Concept: so, this is hard for me to explain and its boring as fuck to study, but you should look at a book about it. If you go to an art school you'll probably have to make some and hate every goddamn minute. But its an important concept and is one of the problems you are having with the two images you posted. Your background color effects the color scheme.

    For instance, you could potentially make that second scheme work:
    critrad2.jpg
    But you cant treat the pants and the shirt exclusively from each other, if you are going to throw purple in there then everything gets effected. I tend to choose my colors over all very early on. Sometimes if things get dull I'll do some layer/hue tricks and see what kind of effects I can get, but I always do that mid process and use it for ideas. Colors will change as you work on the piece and it really helps to see it as an overall process than trying to color one thing at a time.


    Changing the color picker helps me a ton. You may not like it but its worth a try. Its not going to do any magic, you still have to make educated choices, but finding a better blue to go with that yellow can start there. But you have to remember that photoshop is going to do very limited blending for you. For instance, if you decide to shade with blue, it is still important to keep in mind that yellow and blue make green:
    critrad3.jpg
    (ignore the red on the other side...I forgot what I was doing. I just like warm colors.)

    You have to soften the effect and use the idea at your discretion. In that way it is very important that you play around, but still take things to completion as you do it and make decisions that are not based on hard "rules" because the rules are vague. You dont want to end up with purple and blue all over the place just because.

    I hope I was clear, and not completely useless in that rant. Im sure some one else could help out here.

    Iruka on
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    Radar6590Radar6590 Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Ok, so here's my full color of that picture after considering some of what you said. I figured I'd just go with the cooler palette on this one, since the green was already there and although I tend to think the hot looks more awesome, I somehow am more comfortable picking cooler colors (dunno why?). Also, putting up the greyscale since I don't really know all that I'm looking for in value, so any help in that area (now that I've tried!) would be helpful as well.

    Also, I know you guys told me to cell shade, but cell shading is SOOO boring, I'd rather try to find a soft color style that fits my linework. >_> And I tried coloring the metal objects a little differently than the rest of the picture. The skin could maybe be a bit more blended, too, but let me know what you think.

    8b09a4ed3ac114ac375bedff7dcf27fc.jpg

    karusflutecolorwm2.jpg

    Edit: Desaturated the shading on the back of his vest at a friend's suggestion:

    5b6c722f8f672ea7b5b21ceebe3f04e0.jpg

    Radar6590 on
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    Loomdun wrote: »
    ...And I am being hulked enraged by multiple things right now and I will destroy you
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    MykonosMykonos Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    much better now that you got your values in check

    Mykonos on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    "I was born; six gun in my hand; behind the gun; I make my final stand"~Bad Company
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    misosoupmisosoup Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Listen to Iruka, she clearly knows. Joseph albers is all kids of crazy awesome genius cool.

    misosoup on
    APTBSsig.jpg
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    Radar6590Radar6590 Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Ok, here's the next thing I've colored. Really took a good look at color theory before trying it and I think it turned out well.

    voodooelfspellfinfv2.jpg

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    Loomdun wrote: »
    ...And I am being hulked enraged by multiple things right now and I will destroy you
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    RavenshadowRavenshadow Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    you really need to work on your anatomy. The torso especially. Use some references for that kind of stuff.

    Ravenshadow on
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    MustangMustang Arbiter of Unpopular Opinions Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Mmmm it's nice....few things though, the reflected lighting on the edge of the abdominals is confusing. It shouldn't really be reflected at all.

    His left hand (our right) pectoral muscle.....actually both pecs look flat in their structure.

    His right (to the left of screen) doesn't rotate correctly. Holding your arm in that position your bicep would face the screen almost head on and the palarmus longus (his forearm (yes I am looking these up)) would be facing more downward.

    The Serratus Anterior muscles (to the side of his abdominals) and his obliques, don't look like muscles....more like a weird, reinforced ribcage.

    The feet...well I think you just need to do more studies on feet.

    Don't let all that shit get you down though, it's a fine bit of work, but if you're going to define every muscle you really need to nail it or it's just not going to look quite right.

    Mustang on
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    Radar6590Radar6590 Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Ravenshadow: What? can you be more specific, 'cuz I thought i did a pretty good job. Though now that Mustang's mentioned it the ribcage is kind of odd. Other than that I think the torso's ok.

    Mustang: Edited it to not include the reflected light on his ab muscles. I admittedly am not going to change the arm, ribs, or the pecs, though you're certainly right about them.

    It's not that I necessarily got the ribs wrong, though, I don't think? I believe I defined them too heavily. Feet, that's pretty much what my feet look like, the larger toe spread apart from the others, but I do know I have some weird ass feet. I'll double check it against some refs next time.

    Like I said, pecs and the arm, you're definitely correct.

    I think I was perhaps trying to hard to measure up to this sketch I did a few days ago. The ribs and pecs look better to me there. Maybe I'm wrong again, though.

    Oh, and here it is without the reflected light. And thanks for the crits, really.

    62453ec5262a5c16219b59636e754958.jpg

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    Loomdun wrote: »
    ...And I am being hulked enraged by multiple things right now and I will destroy you
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    MustangMustang Arbiter of Unpopular Opinions Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    It just struck me what's bothering me with the feet, it's the lack of overlapping lines on the toes, which means they lack form.

    Oh and certainly don't re-work it, I wouldn't, that would be far too boring and frustrating.

    Mustang on
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    RavenshadowRavenshadow Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Radar6590 wrote: »
    Ravenshadow: What? can you be more specific, 'cuz I thought i did a pretty good job. Though now that Mustang's mentioned it the ribcage is kind of odd. Other than that I think the torso's ok.

    Mustang: Edited it to not include the reflected light on his ab muscles. I admittedly am not going to change the arm, ribs, or the pecs, though you're certainly right about them.

    It's not that I necessarily got the ribs wrong, though, I don't think? I believe I defined them too heavily. Feet, that's pretty much what my feet look like, the larger toe spread apart from the others, but I do know I have some weird ass feet. I'll double check it against some refs next time.

    Like I said, pecs and the arm, you're definitely correct.

    I think I was perhaps trying to hard to measure up to
    I did a few days ago. The ribs and pecs look better to me there. Maybe I'm wrong again, though.

    Oh, and here it is without the reflected light. And thanks for the crits, really.

    Reference pic

    abs don't go up to the breast. your missing a muscle group down his side, etc. Look at the shoulder and the arm compared to the reference. etc., etc.,

    Had you not chosen to outline the muscles with stark black lines you might have gotten away with some of it. But you're painting and linework really bring out the flaws.

    Next time try painting in the muscles rather than outlining them and painting around your outlines.

    Ravenshadow on
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    MykonosMykonos Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    arms and shoulders are well done, but the torso needs a tune up. Two of the biggest things I spotted are the rib cage areas, which on ripped individual would look nothing like that (check out some references to get a better illustration) Also the abs are sorta over defined and disproportionate. Again, check out some references to see what I'm talking about. I use this site religiously.

    http://www.posemaniacs.com/

    Mykonos on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    "I was born; six gun in my hand; behind the gun; I make my final stand"~Bad Company
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    ScosglenScosglen Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    The Torso has a lot of problems.

    The heavy outlining on the pecs, ribcage and abdominal muscles is inaccurate, but the even bigger problem is that they are so harsh and inorganic that they make him look like a plastic toy.

    The shape of the pecs and the way that they connect to the top of the bicep and deltoids is plain wrong. Get reference for someone lifting their arms up horizontally and straight into the air to get a better idea of how they connect together.

    The ribs are incorrectly drawn and waaay too pronounced along the bottom contour. There is muscle that interlaces through the ribs below the pecs, so a straight line is not adequate to describe them.

    Generally you can only see 3 full sets of abdominalis muscles, hence the term "6-pack". The pairs above the navel are wider than they are long.

    This poor guy seems to be completely missing his oblique muscles.

    The musculature on his right arm and the hand itself are passable and good, respectively. His left arm isn't so great though--The fist is out of perspective with the forearm, the way the bicep hits the deltoid and the musculature on the inner forearm is wrong.

    And as a final note, I have to say that this guy is freakishly lean. Looking at his torso if I saw someone like this in real life they would be grotesquely emaciated and probably seem to be on the verge of death. You should try to incorporate a little more fleshiness into that anatomy and get away from 0% bodyfat muscle suits.

    Scosglen on
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    KunkohKunkoh Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Missing his lats too.

    Lighting seems a bit off to me. It's in the center of his body, but on his right ribs, and upper abs there are shadows along the bottom edge.

    Kunkoh on
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    Radar6590Radar6590 Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Ravenshadow; About the abs not reaching the pecs, you're

    Just

    Plain

    Wrong

    That picture you linked, I dunno what's up with it, really. I'm sure it's some body type, but it doesn't discount all the other ones. I'm not saying these abs are perfect, they're not, but they really don't belong so low in most people. I mean, I'm not muscular, but I can see my abs and they go up to my pectorals, too.

    Thanks for the further crits, guys. Mykonos, I did know about posemaniacs, but I had only used it to reference once or twice before. Maybe I'll keep it in mind for later pieces. Did a few studies from the poses, too:

    posepracticeqe2.jpg

    And Scosglen, I can definitely see what you're saying about adding more fat to him. He looks like he has muscular dystrophy now that I'm looking. >.< Which... could kind of fit with him being all voodoo, but not my intent and that's not an excuse, heh. Again, next time I'll try to reference more and definitely try to not think of each part of the body as separate (as I seem to be doing) and try to make sure it all flows together, too.

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    Loomdun wrote: »
    ...And I am being hulked enraged by multiple things right now and I will destroy you
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    KunkohKunkoh Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Radar, you're not quite understanding what you're seeing in those pics. Raven's correct.

    Take your fingers, poke them along the top of your ribs, It's a good 3-4" (just guestimation here) from the top of the ribs to the bottom of the pecs. Doing this will give you a CLEAR feeling for what you're seeing, and it will be obvious that your eyes are not quite telling you what you think they are. Reminds me of something I recently read in Drawing from the Right Side, where she discusses what you have put in your mind to be correct, isn't always correct. Draw what you see, not what you THINK you see.

    Those poses are closer to accurate there, and much more realistic. Why? Because you have the muscles in the right place. Were they from a reference?

    Kunkoh on
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    Radar6590Radar6590 Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Kunkoh wrote: »
    Radar, you're not quite understanding what you're seeing in those pics. Raven's correct.

    Take your fingers, poke them along the top of your ribs, It's a good 3-4" (just guestimation here) from the top of the ribs to the bottom of the pecs. Doing this will give you a CLEAR feeling for what you're seeing, and it will be obvious that your eyes are not quite telling you what you think they are. Reminds me of something I recently read in Drawing from the Right Side, where she discusses what you have put in your mind to be correct, isn't always correct. Draw what you see, not what you THINK you see.

    Those poses are closer to accurate there, and much more realistic. Why? Because you have the muscles in the right place. Were they from a reference?

    Yes, they were from reference.

    As for the ribs, don't you meant the bottom of the rib to the bottom of the pecs? You're right, there are 3-4" there, but there are muscles over that bone. It's not just like the abs end there and it's rib. It's still an ab muscle. Unless I really have no idea what I'm talking about whatsoever.

    So the correct assessment isn't that I have the ab muscles too high, it's that I have the ribs too high, I think. Rather than tell me about my misplacement of muscles, tell me I misplaced the bones. :-P

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    Loomdun wrote: »
    ...And I am being hulked enraged by multiple things right now and I will destroy you
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    KunkohKunkoh Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    EXACTLY - give me a little bit to cook some food, then I'll take what you just drew, then your elf shaman and show you EXACTLY where it gets wonky. I think once you see it, it'll click like "OOOOH yeah! now I see!" (sorry, just got home, worked late putting a grant together)

    Kunkoh on
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