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Potential Abuse
Grundlestiltskin
Behind you!Registered User regular
Behind you!Registered User regular
So long back story short, a friend of mine has been dating a girl off and on, most on, for probably about 2 or so years now. We'll call them...John and Sarah, for the purpose of whatever.
Both of them have some issues; John's mother had Huntington's, and I believe killed herself before she died of it. Sarah was in my college grad year as a freshman, left for mental health reasons, came back, failed out, came back again, and was ultimately asked to leave and didn't graduate. She had a reputation for being kind of a nut job and a bit of a compulsive liar. As an aside, this was her Facebook note the other day:
So...yeah.
Anyway, this particular couple's relationship has been marked by a lot of bad blood. She's cheated on him several times, lied hardcore about it, she was living with him but he threw her out. Now she lives with friends, but I guess they're still together, or dating, or something.
At any rate, in the past few months she's been increasingly vocal in claiming that he is abusing her. About a month ago my girlfriend and I went out with the two of them, and they seemed perfectly fine (at least, fine for them). Then a few days later, after just hanging out with my gf, another friend, and John, Sarah writes this on my facebook wall:
She also wrote this on my girlfriend's facebook wall, in addition to sending a similar message to my friend who knew her in college and was out with us that night.
I talked to John about it after a while and basically said that she was exaggerating, that she had been trying to force herself into his apartment and that he had restrained her, that she got some bruises from that but that was it. Given Sarah's tendency to create drama, I dismissed it.
Fast forward to this past weekend, John and I are just playing videogames at his place. I casually ask how things are going with Sarah, whether they're still dating, etc. "Oh, she's out with friends this weekend." 30 second conversation, whatever. I get this in a facebook message last night:
So my question is, what the f*ck? It's getting increasingly difficult to just shrug her off as being crazy, but if she's making this stuff up she's really committed to the lie. If something is going on, I doubt I would get a straight answer from John, but he's never seemed particularly violent. I'm really just not sure what I should be doing in this situation.
Thoughts?
TLDR - My friend's GF is insisting that he is beating her, but it's more likely than not that she's making it up. How do I respond?
Both of them have some issues; John's mother had Huntington's, and I believe killed herself before she died of it. Sarah was in my college grad year as a freshman, left for mental health reasons, came back, failed out, came back again, and was ultimately asked to leave and didn't graduate. She had a reputation for being kind of a nut job and a bit of a compulsive liar. As an aside, this was her Facebook note the other day:
occasionally people ask me why i'm just a secretary. people i barely know, mainly...
i never really know how to answer.
every day when my mom dropped me off at the curb to go to elementary school, she would say "remember, you can do anything you put your mind to!" and i always believed her, 100%, until my junior year of high school, the day after christmas, when my older brother was brutally murdered and the entire rest of my family came home to find him in a large pool of his own congealing blood... from then on i sort of felt like there was no point to trying to succeed at things, if the people you loved were just going to die like that. i can't do anything i put my mind to, because i'm pretty sure inventing the time machine to go back and save my brother is just never gonna happen, no matter how hard i try.
i guess i'd rather spend my time getting to know people while they're here, rather than working on material accomplishments, and i guess i'm okay with not living up to other people's expectations of me.
this note's probably not going to stay up long, guess i'm just in a bad mood...
So...yeah.
Anyway, this particular couple's relationship has been marked by a lot of bad blood. She's cheated on him several times, lied hardcore about it, she was living with him but he threw her out. Now she lives with friends, but I guess they're still together, or dating, or something.
At any rate, in the past few months she's been increasingly vocal in claiming that he is abusing her. About a month ago my girlfriend and I went out with the two of them, and they seemed perfectly fine (at least, fine for them). Then a few days later, after just hanging out with my gf, another friend, and John, Sarah writes this on my facebook wall:
in case you were wondering why i wasn't out last night - it's because John didn't want his friends seeing the black eye and lumps on my head that he gave me. and i couldn't call you or [my other friend] to hang out because John smashed up my phone while he was beating me so i couldn't call the police. luckily, someone else called while i was crying, but unfortunately, i was too nice and didn't want him to go to jail, so i refused to talk. but yeah, i missed getting to go out because John beats up little girls whenever he's pissed. feel free to now fix him up with any girls you might hate....
She also wrote this on my girlfriend's facebook wall, in addition to sending a similar message to my friend who knew her in college and was out with us that night.
I talked to John about it after a while and basically said that she was exaggerating, that she had been trying to force herself into his apartment and that he had restrained her, that she got some bruises from that but that was it. Given Sarah's tendency to create drama, I dismissed it.
Fast forward to this past weekend, John and I are just playing videogames at his place. I casually ask how things are going with Sarah, whether they're still dating, etc. "Oh, she's out with friends this weekend." 30 second conversation, whatever. I get this in a facebook message last night:
please refrain from ever discussing me in front of John again. he and I are not dating, and if he continues to try to contact me, I will be forced to get a restraining order. he has on several occasions now, repeatedly punched me in the head until I blacked out, and it is in my best interest if he knows nothing about me. I've had him blocked on here, but I know you still talk to him. Please help me keep that psychopath out of my life, because next time I'm afraid I won't live through it.
So my question is, what the f*ck? It's getting increasingly difficult to just shrug her off as being crazy, but if she's making this stuff up she's really committed to the lie. If something is going on, I doubt I would get a straight answer from John, but he's never seemed particularly violent. I'm really just not sure what I should be doing in this situation.
Thoughts?
TLDR - My friend's GF is insisting that he is beating her, but it's more likely than not that she's making it up. How do I respond?
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Grundlestiltskin on
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I mean I can't stand her to begin with, and we've all told him to get rid of her for a long time now; his solution was to stop hanging out with us so he didn't have to listen to it anymore. Since we've started hanging out again, I've tried to take it easy on the "your girlfriend is a nightmare" talks.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Despite the fact that "Sarah" has not as yet contacted any authorities, it does not rule out domestic abuse; in fact, it is extremely common in cases of domestic abuse for the abused party to either forgive the abuser or be too scared to report it.
On the other hand, "Sarah's" history of mental illness adds complications to the believability of her story.
At this point the best thing you can probably do is not to actively stay in touch with "Sarah" but to keep an idea of what is happening. Also, while "John" is your friend, "Sarah's" accusations cannot be dismissed completely. Hang out with your friend, and don't pressure him about his relationship, but at the same time try to be casually aware of what is going on.
If your friend is abusing "Sarah" you really should report this to the appropriate authorities, but at this stage the evidence is not really secure enough on either side.
Well with a bit of research it shouldn't be too difficult to find out if the two of them have been spotted with one another at all. I'm assuming you must all share some mutual friends or acquaintances. So perhaps you could ask around and see if anyone knows what their status is. Of course don't bring up the accusations or that you heard they split since the current accepted idea is that they are together. At least John is trying to portray that, since he is accused of causing the harm here it is best to keep the reality he is trying to present as fact. Which should keep Sarah safe assuming that there is abuse going on here.
Once you find out more in regard to their actual status it should be relatively easy to determine which one of them is the crazy crazy.
You're only worried because she's crying wolf about something for so long and so important. If it wasn't something like abuse, you wouldn't give this the time of day.
Block her, stay hanging out with John until he proves he's a dick. You're basically not giving him the benefit of the massive doubt.
I mean, I have been giving him the benefit of the doubt. I don't think that he's really beating her in the way she describes.
If I had to guess, it's probably somewhere in between "he beats me unconscious on a regular basis" and "I grabbed her wrists so she couldn't get in my apartment." It's just making me really uncomfortable to keep getting messages like this, but I feel bad blocking her if something really is happening.
I'm just getting increasingly uncomfortable with the whole situation.
As far as mutual acquaintances, not really. They stopped talking to our other friends because the friends were too insistent that they were just really terrible together.
Usually a good sign to back off from both of them until the situation cools down.
Good friends aside, do you really want this kind of drama in your life? Are you ready to deal with the situation if you should come across her trying to break into her place while you two are drinkin' beers and playing video games? If she does get in and he starts pummeling her are you ready to break it up?
There are plenty of options to game together without physically being in said friends presence as well.
Mind you, I'm always overly cautious.
I'm with everyone else on this one. Stay out of the entire situation. Don't talk to John about her and don't feed into her drama.
Advice taken.
And I didn't "investigate" anything, beyond asking my friend once "why is your girlfriend writing this stuff on my facebook wall." I really would be happier just having nothing to do with it.
The way I see it, if she was abused, either she'd not mention it out of fear, or she'd tell the authorities. She wouldn't just post messages such as the ones you quoted: they don't even sound legitimate.
Just ignore her in any way you can, and don't talk about her to John. If John causes drama, throw him out of your life too. Sad to say, but you're better off without him than with him if he brings drama with him.
This is so offensive and awful, because, if she's lying, she's making it harder for domestic abuse victims to be taken seriously and get help, and if she's not, her previous dramatic behavior is going to make it hard for people to believe her.
I'm not trying to suggest that that's what's happening, but think about it before you make any sudden decisions about either of them. Either way, she needs help, but you may not be the right person to offer it.
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"The power of the weirdness compels me."
No matter what is going on with who, it is perfectly reasonable to request that neither of them fight or take verbal jabs at the other using your fucking facebook. It sounds like she's the big perpetrator of this. It's not only okay but probably a good idea to say to her "Look, I can see you're going through some shit, but please do not post any of it on my facebook."
Clearly, she has a desire to be seen as the victim; you can tell by the unrelated original story which is then later brought out more vividly in her anecdote of John. There is a question of whether or not she is being purposefully maligning, or if she actually believes this version to be true (or thirdly, it might be true).
Maligning makes more sense. Because why you?. Why go to you specifically and tell you these things? What is the motivation there? It doesn't seem to be to receive help, it's not a real ploy for 'understanding' or to unburden her heart. So why?
I'll tell you this, and beleive me I have had me some sweet unbalanced lovin'- nobody does anything unless it benefits them in some way; even 'crazy' people have their reasons. They just step over values and boundaries other people tend to have to see their needs met.
When the sense of self-identity is off, twisted with inconceivable insecurities, what is the best self to put forward? She knows (or thinks she knows) she isn't good friend material. But she wants to be one anyway, because human beings are social animals, and everyone needs friends. So, step one, damage control- she's been shitty to John, assumes John is saying bad things about her, and so first thing, throw John's credibility into question. Make him the bad guy, because she feels/knows she is the bad guy here. With that out of the way, thinking maybe you will now see her apart from her actions relating to John, she can put herself forward.
Everybody is good at something, and we bring those strengths forward when establishing ties with those around us. I think, and it's just thinking, that she is really exceptionally good at being the victim. That is her strength. She knows how that goes, how people relate to that, knows what victims do, how they act, how they present and what being a victim feels like. That is her strength, part of her core identity, and if one is to relate, that is some common ground - we've all been victims of something, so most people can understand.
This same ground gives her something that she needs; no doubt she needs people around her that know how to deal with a victim mentality, and her successful freindships are going to be with those who can deal that sort of thing up on a regular basis. Deal with some hard issues, because her life has had hard issues.
In her own way, she is seeking and testing the people around her to find someone who is going to be able to relate to those deeper issues. Maybe 'abusive boyfriend' is an upper layer of pain, something she can chat about easily, a testing ground to see if someone can go deeper.
Almost always, at least IMHE, when rational people step over solid social boundaries consistantly, it's because something terribly unsocial happened to them, and it's eating them alive. Coping with that sort of psychological wound, the kind that gnaws at them everyday can create some very intense and disturbing situations. Situations that can can get out of hand very, very quickly.
Truth or no truth, girl needs counselling, this kind of lie needs assistance as much as this kind of truth. Everyone pretty much knows that that's rarely a 'real' answer, I mean, how likely is it that such a suggestion will really be taken and followed through with, but there it is.
If you can't deal, and it looks like you can't, my advice is to get the hell away. Excise the cancer completely; drop John until he no longer has any contact with this girl, block the fuck out of Sarah and don't look back. Because things like this don't get any smaller without treatment, they get bigger. And if it's John today, tomorrow it could be you. Don't ever be alone with this girl, be aware and be concious of your communications with her, and keep everything, everything, open and in the light.
Good luck man, it'll get rougher before it gets easier.
Put simply: screen shot, or it didn't happen.
Her making up these stories, graphic in nature, could be a cry for help. Sh will end up suicidal if she does not get help. She is begging for attention with her stories. One day, they won't be stories.
If it is as bad as she says, she should call someone, yesterday.
My inclination is to leave it all alone, and get as far away as possible
She's trying to make that person (or one of those people) you, but that won't work, so deflect her attention as best as you can in the most respectful and supportive manner that you can while, of course, being firm in your decision to not involve yourself any further.
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Find a social work centre or outreach program or domestic abuse hotline or battered women's shelter or whatever similar organisation you can find that is in your area, and call them. Tell them what you've told us, including your reservations about her credibility but also your concern that there might be a seed of truth in it. They'll be able to give you much better advice than you'll get here.
I'd bet money on it. She just sounds crazy.
I host a podcast about movies.
Relating this story to that is insulting to us and Genovese. They're completely different situations.
It'd been about 2 months since John had even mentioned Sarah. He had been dating this other girl until recently, so I was pretty confident that he had finally moved past this whole disaster. I saw Sarah at a party with her new boyfriend, and despite my aprehension she was able to behave like a normal human being. Super.
I'm at John's place on Friday night, and somehow Sarah comes up in conversation. I ask him about it, and he admits that they're still talking fairly regularly. I asked him why, and told him that the best thing for both of them was for him to be avoiding contact with her altogether. He said that he's worried about her, that she's depressed and not going to work etc etc. I told him he wasn't helping her, that he needed to just do his own thing and let her sort her own sh*t out. I mention that I had seen her the previous week with her new boyfriend, and that he should just let the other guy be there for her. We talked about the other guy a bit, John says he's aware of the guy, and that he legitimately hopes it works out so she doesn't need him (John) anymore.
The next evening, I get a facebook message from Sarah.
Obviously, I found this a bit disturbing. I confronted John about it, asked what was going on and why she was accusing him of stalking her. He repeats his story that they have been talking, and that he's been trying to provide emotional support. I don't really know who to believe in this situation. However, he forwarded me an e-mail from her asking for money the previous Friday.
So clearly whatever's going on, it isn't one sided. John said he had forwarded this e-mail to her parents, I'm not entirely sure why. Regardless, I'm really tired of being put in the middle of it. I reply to Sarah's facebook message, basically stating that I had spoken with John about what was going on, that I had advised him to not talk to her at all anymore, that I wasn't going to go out of my way to avoid talking about her if John wanted to, and that it was completely inappropriate for her to involve me in her personal problems.
She did not respond to this well.
I resisted the impulse to respond to this one. So she took it upon herself to write me again this morning.
What do I even do here? Do I just put her on ignore? Does she really seem like a girl in a crisis of abuse? I find it hard to believe that someone would continually reach out to their stalker for emotional and financial support (the latter of which is the only one I have concrete evidence of). I'm not trying to put myself in the middle of things, but it's hard not to be involved when this girl repeatedly lashes out at me for even mentioning her to my friend. How does one proceed with this kind of situation?
Let John deal with Sarah and do whatever stupid shit he's going to do, and never talk to or about Sarah again because she's trouble waiting to happen to you. Do yourself a favor and start pretending she doesn't exist. If she's asking him for money she's clearly lying to you about something, and if I were you I really wouldn't want to stick around to find out what.
But the way she writes even makes me want to respond and rip her one on how messed up she is.
A lot has happened since the OP. John and Sarah dated for a while longer, got engaged in May of 2009, broke it off a month or so later because she was still cheating on him.
John starts dating a new girl (Lisa), things go well except for a rocky start at the beginning due to Sarah's continued harassment (we'll get to this later). Eventually Sarah fades into the background and I never hear about her again. Things go well with Lisa, very well actually. John moves in with her in December of 2009, and they got married last weekend. Good for him.
My girlfriend posts an album from John's wedding on Facebook this weekend, and within 24 hours Sarah has commented on the album.
We can't even figure out HOW she commented on the album - neither of us are Facebook friends with her, she isn't friends with anyone tagged in the album, and the album privacy is set to friends only. We deleted the comment and decided that it was best not to respond to her.
I bring this up to John just to let him know what happened, he gets really upset obviously. He then goes into some detail about things that happened during their "relationship."
- She would attack him on a semi regular basis. He said that she gave him at least one bloody nose, and at one point took a bat to his knee.
- He said that he had never been aggressively physical towards her, but that he had physically separated the two of them for his own safety. I pushed him on this, and he said that he had never hit her or tried to hurt her. Not sure where I stand on this one.
- After they broke up, she broke into his apartment and vandalized it. Breaking stuff, throwing things everywhere. She apparently took a sharpie to his apartment building walls and wrote things about him abusing women.
- He said that for a long time he was afraid to come home because he didn't know she had done something to it.
- She apparently "hacked" into his personal and work e-mail and sent messages from it. She also "hacked" Lisa's Facebook profile and posted a lot of obscene things on her Facebook status.
- When John and Lisa got engaged, Sarah started buying cheap things off the wedding registry so that Lisa's mom would have to ask about her.
It's obvious at this point that Sarah isn't/hasn't let this go, for whatever reason. I don't want to say anything to her, because I really, really don't want to attract this girl's ire. I want to help John, but I don't know what to do - it's pretty obvious that this girl is running around saying all kinds of disparaging things about John, and I'm sure it can't be good for his reputation.
Does he have any kind of recourse at all? Should he just be ignoring it and hoping it goes away?
My ex wasn't as crazy as that one, never had to deal with any baseball bats. But step one is cutting all contact aggressively. Super aggressively. Unfriended my ex on facebook, blocked her on twitter, linkedin, myspace, gchat, gmail, cell phone. Everything. Zero contact. Ignored everything she ever sent completely.
The thing about these crazies is they latch on to every tiny piece of contact they get. Ignore them long enough, and eventually they'll find something or someone else to obsess over that can feed their addiction to misery. Just ignore it all and pretend she's not there and not doing anything.
I know its hard. It drove my new girlfriend who's the best thing to ever happen to me nuts when the ex would send me a random text message after 3 months of silence calling her a whore and I wouldn't respond to defend her. But it was a demand for attention, and you can't be baited by something like that.
If she STILL doesn't go away, well, then it might be time to turn the tables on the restraining order stuff.
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He says that he took pictures and called the authorities when it happened, they came and saw it, asked if he wanted to press charges and he said no. Allegedly he still cared about her and didn't want her to go to jail, I don't know.
When I mention legal pressure he says that she's really smart and knows the law, wouldn't do anything illegal, and that he's really afraid of retaliation.
He's a very non-confrontational guy, kind of a doormat as well. I think he's really worried about stirring up shit, and is hoping this just goes away eventually. That's probably his best option, I guess.