Guys using two handers don't really need to worry about hit, because we really only want to hit the cap for specials. And the +hit we'll find on gear should take care of that and then some without having to gem for it. Duel wielders (like rogues) get a lot more damage out of their white damage, which has a much higher hit cap. Also, fury warriors are currently penalised for using TG by having their hit rating lowered. (is that right? or do I not remember correctly?) Tanks, from what I understand want to get str for blocking reasons, right? But not necessarily gem for it?
I may be wrong about everything I just said.
Ya, tanks are all about str these days (3.0). But we'll still be gemming for stam as well. Strength not only for block value, but also AP seeing as how our threat is based off that now.
Arvo on
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kaleeditySometimes science is more art than scienceRegistered Userregular
edited September 2008
Dual wielders have a ~24% miss chance on white swings, and a 5% miss on yellow/special swings. Everyone else has a 5% miss on whites and specials. Cutting that 5% down to 0% with hit is pretty important -- that is, better than anything else -- for everyone. Rogues and warriors have additional reasons to get more +hit for white swings (gain energy on offhand swings, rage on white swings, etc.) that may or may not eclipse the importance of other stats like str or crit.
Typically, warriors don't value +hit beyond the "special hit cap" as much as rogues due to current talents and limitations of what you do with extra rage.
For ret paladins, if you get 5% (7ish% hit for higher level / boss mobs) then you're pretty good and you don't need any more than that. That 5% is generally more important per stat point than anything else.
For warriors with titan's grip, they get an additional +15% miss on yellow swings, so they'd value hit even more.
There's nothing wrong with the previous posts, I'm just touching on specifics.
My previous thought about hit was that dualers have so many strikes per second it didn't matter if they missed a couple. Where as 2h people depend on each very slow attack to hit, or they lose a large amount of their dps on one miss.
But seeing is explained makes sense now.
That hit rating you said could change though right? Since they're still playing around with stats in Beta and PTR
It's more about the percentage of white damage you do, than dual wielding versus a 2 hander. That difference just changes your cap, but if you don't do much white damage, you don't have much incentive to reach the cap.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited September 2008
SAME AS MS WARRIORS AND RET PALADINS, HOSS
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Your right. But heavy raiding guild will have to make rules about it.
Some war has a better 2h than what drops, but wants it anyways for his off, then you have a ret or arms war that need it as well...
I forsee many a argument.
Edit: Will you still see Furies dualing 1h? or will Titan grip make that obsolete? And I'm talking about what Bliz is trying to make it, not if right at this second it works or not.
Uh, if it's your standard 5 man instance, you roll need for what you need, regardless. You can still set up any rules you might want on the number of items you can need on, as there are likely to be multiple desired drops for any class. For raiding, you're definitely going to get limited on how many items you can need, I don't know that this will be a real issue.
Edit: For that, Arvo, you either have DKP to solve the issue, or you have both guys roll need on it anyways if neither of them have received anything.
You only have to convince whoever leads your raids to add it to your loot rules, for PUG's I see it as fair game for a Warrior to roll need on it against you for their offhand.
Uh, if it's your standard 5 man instance, you roll need for what you need, regardless. You can still set up any rules you might want on the number of items you can need on, as there are likely to be multiple desired drops for any class. For raiding, you're definitely going to get limited on how many items you can need, I don't know that this will be a real issue.
Edit: For that, Arvo, you either have DKP to solve the issue, or you have both guys roll need on it anyways if neither of them have received anything.
Ya, I know we will always probably stick to the same system that has always been used. My guild uses a DKP/roll mix. But only allows you to spend DKP and win 1 item a night. (obviously if no one else wants it you get it) But I still think there will be large amounts of griping afterward.
Hell, if that situation I said before happened to me, and I lost to that Fury war, I'd be pissed.
Edit: I thought I heard (though I think I either screwed it up in my head, or was just told wrong) that Hammer of Wrath would now stun and silence. But I think what happened is I confused it for the buff to Hammer of Justice that now interrupts. Is that what happened?
Yeah, Hammer of Justice, in addition to the stun effect, also interrupts casting in a spell school for 3 seconds if it lands during a cast (not a silence). The interrupt works on stun-immune bosses that are casting. Hammer of Wrath just does what it does usually.
I recently rolled a paladin alt. it's my 1st alt that I've played past lvl 10, I'm currently 36, so I'm guessing it's a keeper. I'm spec'd ret, and so far my only complaint is how fast I tear burn through mana. Do I just keep 2 stacks of juiceboxes on me to mana up after every fight? What strategies should I employ to keep my downtime at a minimum?
I just tried to get as much "of the Tiger" gear as possible. Then Seal of Command/Autoattack. Crits would kill something in two hits usually. Otherwise, if something was almost dead and I wasn't going to swing again for awhile, I'd judge.
I would have Blessing of Wisdom up at all times, Judge Wisdom, and just sit on Crusader Seal without judging it (too mana expensive), activate crusader strike every 6 seconds, rinse repeat, judging Command right before it expires.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited September 2008
I would instance with another paladin.
Munkus Beaver on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited September 2008
What these men say rings true.
Use Rank 1 Seal of Command as it costs minimal mana, and don't judge until you get Sanctified Seals in the Ret tree.
Is anyone currently playing Holy spec. in the beta? I was just realizing today that if +healing and +damage are being merged into spellpower, my spell damage and + healing will be equalized. This should give me slightly higher damage output than I'm used to in return for the slight downgrading of my heals, right?
I'm a little confused on how this whole transition to spellpower will work. My main question(s):
-Are holy paladins still viable as healers?
-Are we weaker or stronger in PVP as of the current build?
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited September 2008
Your heals will increase in power, not decrease.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Pfffft, gonna be holy in all haste gear with judgements of the pure + Glyph of the Warhorse and be like BAM 1.1 second cast time for mounting, so powerful! Oh wait...
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
30% resistance to magic means fuck you mages, right? Right!
I believe Sacred Cleansing actually checks dispel resistance twice, so you have to get past the 30% dispel resist on fucking EVERYTHING nowadays to remove the debuff, and then again to actually put the 30% magic resist up, and the resist is only for magic/disease/poison debuffs not like Ice Lances or anything. I dunno if they fixed/changed this recently we could test it. Basically I'd take Sanc Seals so you can fuck people up.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited September 2008
Duly noted.
I'm still going ret.
However intriguing rolling a holy demon may be.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
So, have the Paladin mitigation tests done assumed that Sacred Shield is on you at all times (as I'm imagining it will be against raid bosses)?
No, and you wouldn't factor it in for those kind of tests. Since it can be cast on others, any paladin in the raid can place it on a warrior or druid. For mitigation tests you assume self buffs only or you assume all possible buffs. You don't say "Well the Paladin tank can self buff it" when it can just as easily be cast on a warrior.
But that's assuming there's a Warrior in the raid and more than one Paladin, niether of which are guaranteed. Surely it should count as a self-buff? I've been using it that way in 5mans so far.
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
But that's assuming there's a Warrior in the raid and more than one Paladin, niether of which are guaranteed. Surely it should count as a self-buff? I've been using it that way in 5mans so far.
But it's not a self only buff. And the odds of not having a holy, ret, or prot paladin in the raid is extremely slim. So it's not a fair test to apply it only to paladin tanks in testing when it could be applied to warriors as well. Your testing parameters are fairly unlikely.
Posts
Ya, tanks are all about str these days (3.0). But we'll still be gemming for stam as well. Strength not only for block value, but also AP seeing as how our threat is based off that now.
Typically, warriors don't value +hit beyond the "special hit cap" as much as rogues due to current talents and limitations of what you do with extra rage.
For ret paladins, if you get 5% (7ish% hit for higher level / boss mobs) then you're pretty good and you don't need any more than that. That 5% is generally more important per stat point than anything else.
For warriors with titan's grip, they get an additional +15% miss on yellow swings, so they'd value hit even more.
There's nothing wrong with the previous posts, I'm just touching on specifics.
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t29453-combat_ratings_level_80_a/
search for hit
it's like 32.79 hit rating = 1% hit
But seeing is explained makes sense now.
That hit rating you said could change though right? Since they're still playing around with stats in Beta and PTR
Eesh, I guess it's good I see a lot of plate with it.
Before I was saying I saw hit on tanking plate. I didn't look at alot of dps plate. So you still might be scrambling.
There's still plenty without hit too
GL convincing the Warriors of that.
Your right. But heavy raiding guild will have to make rules about it.
Some war has a better 2h than what drops, but wants it anyways for his off, then you have a ret or arms war that need it as well...
I forsee many a argument.
Edit: Will you still see Furies dualing 1h? or will Titan grip make that obsolete? And I'm talking about what Bliz is trying to make it, not if right at this second it works or not.
Edit: For that, Arvo, you either have DKP to solve the issue, or you have both guys roll need on it anyways if neither of them have received anything.
Ya, I know we will always probably stick to the same system that has always been used. My guild uses a DKP/roll mix. But only allows you to spend DKP and win 1 item a night. (obviously if no one else wants it you get it) But I still think there will be large amounts of griping afterward.
Hell, if that situation I said before happened to me, and I lost to that Fury war, I'd be pissed.
Edit: I thought I heard (though I think I either screwed it up in my head, or was just told wrong) that Hammer of Wrath would now stun and silence. But I think what happened is I confused it for the buff to Hammer of Justice that now interrupts. Is that what happened?
Not all the time is needed though. Also 3.0 will solve most problems as well when your higher level.
You'll still run low alot however. Right now it's just the way it is.
Use Rank 1 Seal of Command as it costs minimal mana, and don't judge until you get Sanctified Seals in the Ret tree.
I'm a little confused on how this whole transition to spellpower will work. My main question(s):
-Are holy paladins still viable as healers?
-Are we weaker or stronger in PVP as of the current build?
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=41094
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=43368
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=41102
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=41098
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=43340
Maybe switch out the turn evil one for the HoJ one. Depends on how many locks I wrassle with.
For the record, those are Glyphs of: SoC, Turn Evil, Crusader Strike, Blessing of Might, and Sense Undead.
Our minor glyphs suck.
If I was holy, I'd probably go this way: http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sVAzxhzGVuMeRtZVf0x
30% resistance to magic means fuck you mages, right? Right!
I believe Sacred Cleansing actually checks dispel resistance twice, so you have to get past the 30% dispel resist on fucking EVERYTHING nowadays to remove the debuff, and then again to actually put the 30% magic resist up, and the resist is only for magic/disease/poison debuffs not like Ice Lances or anything. I dunno if they fixed/changed this recently we could test it. Basically I'd take Sanc Seals so you can fuck people up.
I'm still going ret.
However intriguing rolling a holy demon may be.
No, and you wouldn't factor it in for those kind of tests. Since it can be cast on others, any paladin in the raid can place it on a warrior or druid. For mitigation tests you assume self buffs only or you assume all possible buffs. You don't say "Well the Paladin tank can self buff it" when it can just as easily be cast on a warrior.
But it's not a self only buff. And the odds of not having a holy, ret, or prot paladin in the raid is extremely slim. So it's not a fair test to apply it only to paladin tanks in testing when it could be applied to warriors as well. Your testing parameters are fairly unlikely.