Ex-girlfriend/property issue
Nazarac
Registered User new member
Registered User new member
This is a bit of an odd issue if only for the amount of time involved so I'm hoping someone here can help me. A little over a year and half ago my girlfriend at the time came to me claiming she absolutely needed $300.00 to visit a high school friend of hers who was having major personal issues and was now living a few states away. I'm not sure the details of this particular situation won't really be relevant to my issue so I won't elaborate unless requested.
Being that my laptop was on it's last legs at the time the solution I proposed to her was that I would purchase her desktop pc from her for $300.00 (assuming she'd get things together in a timely manner) and allow her to buy it back later for the same price. This is where my dilemma begins.
While on the trip she maintained minimal contact with me and I began to grow concerned. Eventually we have a conversation via IM where she reveals she's been frustrated and angry with me for a considerable amount of time and wasn't sure if she'd ever be coming back. Surely enough she never did come back except to pick up the bulk of her stuff (minus the computer as she was broke) a month or so after the fact. After running out of money both her and her friend returned to their respective parents homes.
Fast forward about a year after the breakup, we've both moved past the issues of the past and speak casually maybe once a month or so. My laptop has since passed away and assuming she'd forgotten or didn't care I've essentially made the desktop my own. I've moved all my essential programs and documents to it, and it's the only computer I have for accessing the internet/writing papers as I am still in college. I've also spent a good amount of cash on various upgrades and repairs (at least $100.00 if not more).
She contacted me via IM today (over a year and a half after the fact) and says she'd like to come pick up the computer some time soon. Considering the circumstances this puts me in a rough spot. The question I have is would there be any potential for legal issues should I decide to ask for more money (based on what I've put into it since) or outright refuse to sell it back. She honestly doesn't seem like the type to cause such problems but we've already discussed things a bit she she's definitely unhappy and I want to make sure all my bases are covered.
Being that my laptop was on it's last legs at the time the solution I proposed to her was that I would purchase her desktop pc from her for $300.00 (assuming she'd get things together in a timely manner) and allow her to buy it back later for the same price. This is where my dilemma begins.
While on the trip she maintained minimal contact with me and I began to grow concerned. Eventually we have a conversation via IM where she reveals she's been frustrated and angry with me for a considerable amount of time and wasn't sure if she'd ever be coming back. Surely enough she never did come back except to pick up the bulk of her stuff (minus the computer as she was broke) a month or so after the fact. After running out of money both her and her friend returned to their respective parents homes.
Fast forward about a year after the breakup, we've both moved past the issues of the past and speak casually maybe once a month or so. My laptop has since passed away and assuming she'd forgotten or didn't care I've essentially made the desktop my own. I've moved all my essential programs and documents to it, and it's the only computer I have for accessing the internet/writing papers as I am still in college. I've also spent a good amount of cash on various upgrades and repairs (at least $100.00 if not more).
She contacted me via IM today (over a year and a half after the fact) and says she'd like to come pick up the computer some time soon. Considering the circumstances this puts me in a rough spot. The question I have is would there be any potential for legal issues should I decide to ask for more money (based on what I've put into it since) or outright refuse to sell it back. She honestly doesn't seem like the type to cause such problems but we've already discussed things a bit she she's definitely unhappy and I want to make sure all my bases are covered.
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Of course if she does pay all the money back you essentially had a free computer for the amount of time you used it for. How much money did you sink into it?
This would be my recommendation, particularly if you have some way to save that data that's on it.
However, if for whatever reason this isn't feasible or you just don't feel like it, I wouldn't worry about it. Just tell her that that was over a year ago and that you're using it as your primary computer now. Basically that there was an assumption that this was a short-term deal, and that the buyback has long since expired.
Alternately, require her to pay you both the extra $100 (for repairs/upgrades done...you should do this regardless) as well as interest on the original $300 for the eighteen months since. This should come out to at least another $100. I'm guessing it's not worth $500 to her, for the reason given above (by JK).
EDIT: Basically, by any reasonable person's standard, there is the assumption that such a deal would be completed much sooner than eighteen months. If she had loaned it to you, that would be different...she could ask for it back anytime. But because you gave her cash for it, I think it's reasonable to either keep the system or charge more.
Now, it's a damn good deal for you, because you can put that money towards an upgrade.
I'm not sure what a judge would let you get away with, but ethically it's pretty open and shut. You made the deal and you should honor it.
Bullshit. That's $300 of his she's had for eighteen months. $300 he could have been earning interest (or not paying interest) on during that time. At the very least she needs to pay him the extra $100 in upgrades/repairs he's done, because that's the risk she took when she waited a year and a half to complete this deal.
And it's hardly open and shut ethically. Like I said, any reasonable person would assume that any such arrangement was to be short-term, and that after an extended period of time went by with no mention of completing it that she was fine making the exchange permanent. Would you say the same if she came back in 40 years wanting to complete the deal? Because if not, we're only arguing about the length of time after which it's safe to call the exchange permanent, not whether it's ever reasonable to do so.
And if you honestly think he should pony up the computer even after a couple decades, well then you're just not a terribly reasonable person.
Is any of this negotiation in writing? Either in a formal contract or just in e-mails/notes going back and forth between the parties?
My answer (and legally what you may/may not have to do) depends ont he answer
I actually considered this and asked her if she'd at least wait til I can get something new in place. I honestly think the fact that she's just trying to reclaim the computer asap with absolutely 0 concern for the spot it puts me in is part of the reason I'm considering just keeping it and being done with it.
Also she's trying to justify not paying for the upgrades/repairs done by claiming that if I had not used the computer (while I owned it) it would not have needed them.
Edited to respond to the post above: No written documentation, all verbal. The only paper involved was the 300 dollars I handed her. (This was also before she uncerimoniously dumped my ass so I didn't think this would ever become an issue that would require any kind of documentation.
The bolded is possible, and if so ascertaining this would probably make your life easier.
And the decline in value is irrelevant.
Explain to her that the only reason you were willing to giver her dumb ass $300 for the computer temporarily is under the assumption that you could get some use out of it...seeing as you are not a goddamn pawn shop.
If she wants to leave property with people in exchange for cash, she can go to one of those. And they will charge her interest if she wants it back.
Man, hearing this I say tell her to piss off. Like I said, most reasonable people would assume that such a deal was long since void anyway. Or, explain to her above regarding pawn shops and tell her that you'll be charging her somewhere in the vicinity of 20%, compounded monthly over 18 months if she wants her computer back.
EDIT: And keeping any parts you added.
EDIT: If you can't tell, the whole "if you hadn't used it" line pisses me off...basically at that point she thought she was using you both as a no-interest loan as well as a free storage locker. Fuck her.
You can buy a much better computer with that money now than a year and a half ago.
$300 still gets a pretty sketchy computer, especially if we're talking with monitor. Plus you're not factoring in the hassle of getting all his shit off the current computer, and/or having to buy her a new hard drive and pulling the old one.
This is not just about money. The fact is she long ago defaulted on this supposed deal (her suggestion that he wasn't supposed to use it just reinforces the fact that it was assumed to be short-term) and at that it's pretty much his choice whether he wants to let her complete it.
The issue of who makes out better monetarily is largely irrelevant, it doesn't matter if he's making out btter in the deal. She failed to hold up her end of it, and at this point it's entirely his choice what he wants to do...and it sounds like he doesn't want to have to deal with this, regardless of the "windfall" it might be for him.
Seriously, tell her to piss off.
I can has cheezburger, yes?
In the OP he stated that he would allow her to buy it back later, with no definite date. If that is the verbal contract, he is required to uphold his end, which would be to allow her to buy it back.
That said, good luck making a verbal contract stick in court.
PRO TIP: Black Friday is coming up!!!!!
You bought it from her fair and square, she has no leg to stand on. I take it nothing about this computer popped up in the small talk you have had with her since the breakup? Really, you set the price now, not her.
your right that $300 then does not make it $300 now. Technically the computer worth even less now, so she shouldn't pay the same but she is. TAKE THE MONEY AND RUN.
It equals around $225 if my RRSP statements are anything to go by.
At which point, really, you can just do what you want to do.
Like I said, if you think it through it's trivial to argue that she abandoned this deal, or failed to live up to her end in good faith, or any of a dozen other ways you might want to put it if your goal is to tell her you're keeping the computer. Her assertion that she shouldn't be responsible for repairs because you could have just "not used it" only makes your case for you, as it clearly implies this was meant to be a short-term arrangement.
But all of this is irrelevant anyway, since at best you guys had an oral contract and that's difficult to enforce even in locations where it can be to begin with. And, again, it's absolutely arguable that she failed to live up to her end. She came for all her stuff, but failed to retrieve the computer? That was probably the point at which you can argue she abandoned it.
I agree with most of the people saying that taking the money is probably the better choice financially (though you should post the specs of the computer/monitor so they can give more informed advice) but I understand the idea that it's the hassle of dealing with it that's the issue. I've been there. You're in school, and I can think of a couple weeks this year where if you asked me to do something like this, it would be worth a hundred or two for me not to have to spend the time on it.
So my advice is do what you want to do. You have no moral obligation to sell it back to her at this point, and I'm confident that you have no legal obligation to do so either (though I'm neither a lawyer nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night). Basically your primary concern is whether what relationship you have left with her is worth dealing with the hassle right now. She sounds like a real asshole, though, so my advice on that front remains...tell her to shove it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adverse_possession
I realize that you're not talking about land that's being farmed, but I believe the principle still holds. I'd tell her to bugger off and keep it. It's not like she has a leg to stand on, and is she REALLY going to come after you over a computer? I doubt it.
That said, mcdermott is right. Given the amount of time that's elapsed and the fact that there's no written record, the worst she can do is hassle you.
Haha...adverse possession only applies to land. The concept really has no bearing on other property.
It really comes down to what the bargain was, specifically. It doesn't matter whether you wrote it down, it doesn't matter if some people here think you should get interest, it doesn't matter if it was fair or not (well, it kind of does but not really). All that matters is what the terms of the bargain was. And even then, it only matters if she actually sues you for breach of contract, which is a pretty remote possibility.
You said, "Being that my laptop was on it's last legs at the time the solution I proposed to her was that I would purchase her desktop pc from her for $300.00 (assuming she'd get things together in a timely manner) and allow her to buy it back later for the same price." If that really was the extent of the bargain, you're most likely obligated to sell it back to her for $300, or be in breach of contract. It really depends on your state, and whether they require that type of contract to be in writing (lots of contracts don't).
you're not a pawn shop
Like I said, I thought that the principle was the same and did not realize that it was for land only. Apparently I was wrongo. I'd still tell her that you're keeping it and that's that.
He agreed to be one, though.
It is in your best interest to avoid any confrontation with a person who dumped you and was angry.
It's not really a question about what would happen legally. Just get your own computer. If she hadn't have let you use the computer you would have had to buy a new one anyways when your laptop broke. Sounds to me like she did you a favor just as well, and it is a petty argument that will seal the deal to the end of your friendship.
IMHO, this is the correct answer. Without a written contract (or even an e-mail/letter/napkin) memorizing the agreement saying you would allow her to buy it back at the same price at a later date, it is a straight sale. If she wants it back so badly, you set the terms and price, not the other way around.
Maybe it's just me, but she sounds like kind of a shitty friend. I really wouldn't care about losing whatever passing friendship remained. She comes back eighteen months later and demands to buy her computer back now? Without being willing to give him a little extra time to find something new?
Sorry, when you wait a year and a half to take care of something like this you don't get to play the "I'm in a hurry" card.
If nothing else, the OP should feel free to take his time finding a new computer, waiting for it to get there, and moving his data over (then use the $300 he gets from her to pay most of it off, if he doesn't have cash now). Of course, considering she fell out of the dumb bitch tree and hit every branch on the way down, he then runs the risk that after dropping money on the new compy she'll fuck him over by not buying her old one back...then he's left with two and a bill to pay.
The question is about a legal problem, and yeah, there is none. This isn't worth going to court over, and I don't think even the lawyer here can really guarantee you what some small claims judge might decide on this matter if it did go to court.
I find the question of morals and ethics more interesting.
First there is the matter of her intent - she might just feel an obligation to pay you back now. In other words, she doesn't really want the computer, she just wants to make sure you aren't still sore over your money. She may not have ever realized that you needed a computer and intended to use this one. She may have thought that you were just taking collateral on a loan and doing her a favor. Either way, maybe she's just feeling obliged to come by and give you your money back and take the computer off your hands. And thus she is right to tell you that it isn't really fair for her to pay for your upgrades (that was certainly never part of the deal), and right now she probably thinks you are a total dick for using her computer, wanting your money back, and now trying to get her to pay for upgrades to it, too.
Failling that, if her intent really is to get her computer back, I still think the right thing to do is to make good on your original deal. There was no specification of time. Some people might say that means that the time limit is whatever you think is reasonable. Others (like me) would say that the evidence already clearly indicates that she thinks 18 months is reasonable, and she is 50% of the party to this deal, so really you have no grounds upon which to claim that you are right and she is wrong. Everyone is acting as if you are the Samaritan here, but didn't you do this because you needed a computer? Back up all your info, and if possible take out the upgrades. If it isn't possible, consider them a sunk cost and move on.
I mean, if you want to get econometric... does 18 months interest on $300 equal the value of 18 months of renting a computer? We're talking about less than $25 if you had bought CDs with that money (assuming you would have even done that). And you got use of a computer for that. Does that plus $100 in upgrades equal the cost of renting the upgraded computer for 18 months? I'd say you got the better end of that deal already, or at least it wasn't a total raw deal for you. Again, you were the one who needed a computer. How much would you say the computer was worth when she gave it to you? If it's significantly more than $300, then I'm even more inclined to call you out here and politely request that you do the right thing and give her back the machine and take your $300 to Best Buy.
If you read the thread (it was only in like one or two posts, so easy to miss) it appears that not only is she the one who wants to complete the deal and get her computer back, but apparently after 18 months of not being concerned about it she's demanding it back now, rather than letting him take a little time to find a replacement for it before completing the deal.
Really, this is the point at which I decided she was being pretty damn unreasonable.
EDIT: The rest of your argument is pretty well reasoned, but I'd say either course of action is arguably pretty reasonable and keeping the computer isn't a clearly wrong decision, morally.
personally i would say fuck her, but, how old is the current computer, this might be a good thing for you. but if not, i say keep it, and let her sit in the hole she dug.
By "the hole she dug," you mean "believing what the OP told her when he said she could buy it back later?"
hahaha, yea, right, just like he believed he was helping his girlfriend in a hard spot, and it turns out she took his money and entered into this situation while angry with him and probably not planning to come back. remember she just asked for the money straight out first, thank god he didn't just give it to her.
so yes, she dug this hole, she didn't follow up or ask about the computer for over a year, what if it had broken down all on its own in that time? what if he hadn't paid to have it fixed, would you then say that she should pay him 300 bucks for the broken husk?
She should have that option, yeah. She sold him the computer and they both acknowledged that she was planning on buying it back. Sure, it's now his computer. He can do whatever he wants with it, if he doesn't care about being a dick. Of course, if he didn't care about being a dick, he probably wouldn't have asked about it here.
My point is that he entered into an agreement and now he wants to back out of it. I say that's a dick move. And no, I don't care that she broke up with him.
Or that 18 months passed?
I'm not just being glib. When someone says later to another person, there's a range of time frames in both people's minds. I don't think I need to give examples.
So, an important question is, when you made the initial deal, what kind of time frame did you have in mind, and were there any words spoken at that time, or since, that made it seem as if that time has expired?
It could be something as trivial as mentioning your computer to her between then and now. Or just following common sense ideas of time.
Edit: This is also quite aside from her being dishonest to you about her reasons for needing the 300 dollars. And yes, someone being dishonest with you and breaking up with you absolutely changes your responsibilities to them. It doesn't negate them completely, but some things are contingent on honesty and a certain kind of relationship.