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SEMIFINALS: MATCH A: PRE-FIGHT DEBATE

Son of BeyonderSon of Beyonder From BeyondBeyondRegistered User regular
edited November 2006 in Graphic Violence
wonderwoman.pngWONDER WOMAN – Diana Prince

POWERS AND ABILITIES: Flight, super-strength, super-speed, highly developed fighting skills, enhanced hearing, enhanced vision, animal empathy, regeneration, sisterhood with fire, high resistance to magic

CptMarvel.jpg
CAPTAIN MARVEL – Billy Batson

POWERS AND ABILITIES: Magically bestowed aspects of various mythological figures which include vast super-strength, physical and magical invulnerability, super-speed, flight, fearlessness, vast wisdom/enhanced mental perception, able to control and emit magic lightning.

shade.jpg
SHADE – Richard Swift

POWERS AND ABILITIES: umbrakinesis (ability to control darkness) - ability to travel great distances in short amounts of time, and create constructs out of shadows

Shadowcat.jpg
SHADOWCAT – Kitty Pryde

POWERS AND ABILITIES: Intangibility with secondary effects. Has a pet dragon. Genius in the field of applied technology and computer science. Trained in the arts of aikido, karate, ninjutsu, and Krav Maga.

In all semifinal round battles, heroes may choose to prepare only at their own facilities, or at the facilities of their supergroup. Heroes may match video of two of their three opponents.. Heroes come equipped with only their standard equipment. Weaknesses that are not publicly known to the hero’s home universe/world will not be made available to the heroes during prep time. Heroes who already know of these weaknesses for whatever reason are not caused to forget this information. Heroes may also consult with an advisor. Heroes have one hour TOTAL to prepare.

VOTING WILL TAKE PLACE IN A SEPARATE THREAD. RULES FOR VOTING WILL BE POSTED UPON THAT THREAD’S OPENING. THE VOTING THREAD WILL OPEN AT ELEVEN O’CLOCK CENTRAL TIME TOMORROW.


ARENA

THE ARENA CHANGES EVERY FIFTEEN MINUTES, IN THIS ORDER. IF A MATCH LASTS LONGER THAN 60 MINUTES, IT RESETS AND CONTINUES

1: Rainforest
2: Suburbs
3. Prehistoric ocean (with islands)
4. Mountains

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Son of Beyonder on
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Posts

  • laughterkillsmelaughterkillsme Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Kitty gives up while watching videos of other contestants.

    laughterkillsme on
    freealonesig.jpg
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2006
    But she goes intangible the whole fight!

    Durka dur durka dur.

    Munkus Beaver on
    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
  • laughterkillsmelaughterkillsme Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    But she goes intangible the whole fight!

    Durka dur durka dur.

    Lets just pretend the Lasso of Truth, or MAGIC lightning have an effect on her ... or knocks her out when she phases through it.

    laughterkillsme on
    freealonesig.jpg
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2006
    Depends. If nothing can affect her while intangble...

    1: She might be able to take out shade.
    2: She might be able to phase through the lightning bolt and cause Marvel to go back to kid form.
    3: She still can't win.

    If something can affect her...

    1: She still loses.

    Munkus Beaver on
    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
  • VapidVapid Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Diana is highly resistant to magic. Captain Marvel is Magic Superman. Thus Diana should be able to take down Marvel. Shade moves on because Kitty can't hurt anyone really. Shade has the versatility in avoidability that is comparble to kitty.

    Vapid on
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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2006
    Vapid wrote:
    Diana is highly resistant to magic. Captain Marvel is Magic Superman. Thus Diana should be able to take down Marvel.

    This reasoning is beyond stupid.

    The source of his power is magic. That does not make the punches that he throws into a sort of magical force.

    Munkus Beaver on
    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Captain Marvel could beat Wonder Woman. Shade could theoretically beat both of them. Wonder Woman is a warrior, Marvel is a superhero. Tough call. I don't see Kitty doing very much here.

    DouglasDanger on
  • CharmyCharmy Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    What exactly is Capt. Marvel's level of fighting skill? As I understand it, he's not really schooled in any style or art, he just punches things and gets a few hints from the Wisdom of Solomon now and then.

    I think Wonder Woman, having been trained all her life in fighting and strategy, has a shot at taking him. Not through a straight-up fight, but through outplanning and outmanuevering him. It would be incredibly hard-fought, but she has a shot.

    Of course, that's pretty much irrelevent. Haven't we already agreed that Shade can revert Capt. back to Billy Batson, as some other darkness powered villain did in the past? Given that, and Shadowcat's inability to hurt anyone, this fight pretty much goes to Wonder Woman/Shade.

    Charmy on
    I have a twitter.
  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    The wiki might be useful.

    DouglasDanger on
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2006
    Yeah, and according to that Marvel smartest there is.

    Munkus Beaver on
    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
  • ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Are we going with the assumption that Shade can depower Marvel?

    I'm thinking Marvel goes out, and Kitty forfeits.

    Scooter on
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    WW and Shade.

    Diana is magic resistant, and Shade, well, he can screw up Marv, I think.

    Fencingsax on
  • NinjaSquirrelNinjaSquirrel Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Scooter wrote:
    Are we going with the assumption that Shade can depower Marvel?

    I'm thinking Marvel goes out, and Kitty forfeits.

    This would be really good to know as I'm sure it will affect a lot of peoples' votes. If he can Shade gets first or second and Marvel third, if he can't Marvel first and Shade third.

    NinjaSquirrel on
  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    This reasoning is beyond stupid.

    The source of his power is magic. That does not make the punches that he throws into a sort of magical force.

    Actually, in Morrisson's JLA, Captain Marvel did hit Supes with a "magic punch" that put him down pretty much instantly. But I still don't think that means his punches won't affect Diana. Though given her martial training, and the fact that she was able to fight Superman to a standstill recently, I think she can still beat Marvel.

    Munch on
  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Marvel has "vast untapped magic potential". He is kind of a wizard now, isnt he?

    DouglasDanger on
  • ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Right now Marvel is basically Shazam. We're not using that version.

    Scooter on
  • bobgorilabobgorila Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Wait, wait.

    Shade is depowering Captain Marvel now?

    How does he do that?

    Also: umbrakinesis is the coolest word ever.

    bobgorila on
    I like my women how I like my coffee.

    Anally.
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    bobgorila wrote:
    Wait, wait.

    Shade is depowering Captain Marvel now?

    How does he do that?

    Also: umbrakinesis is the coolest word ever.

    Shade can send Captain Marvel to the Shadowlands, where he's powerless.

    Also, Kitty is vulnerable to magic and Wonder Woman is vulnerable to attacks from small projectiles.

    robosagogo on
  • RonnieWooWoo!RonnieWooWoo! Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Ok we need some sort of concrete answer on whether Shade (or at least darkness based attacks) can block/take away Marvel's powers, as that would pretty much determine the fight right there...any idea where you'd find out something like that?

    Also: Umbrakinesis isn't the coolest word ever, "pyroclastic" is.

    RonnieWooWoo! on
    Woo!
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    So, Stargirl and Captain Marvel get swallowed up by Obsidian along with Sentinel. They get sent to the Shadowlands, the source of every umbrakinetic person's powers.

    JSA-047-19.jpg

    JSA-047-20.jpg

    They wander around, get attacked by some demon things, and look for Alan Scott.

    Eventually, they stumble upon a familiar face.

    JSA_48_21.jpg

    JSA_48_22.jpg

    Shade has access to the Shadowlands and is capable of using his teleportation abilities on others as well as himself. Given that, I think he should be able to send Marvel to the Shadowlands just as Obsidian did.

    robosagogo on
  • Spectre-xSpectre-x Rating: AWESOME YESRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Fencingsax wrote:
    WW and Shade.

    Diana is magic resistant, and Shade, well, he can screw up Marv, I think.

    Yes except whether or not Diana is magic-resistant is completely irrelevant, seeing as Captain Marvel is still going to hit her hard enough to crack mountains.

    He's faster than her, stronger than her, more durable than her, he has greater stamina than her.

    Captain Marvel and Shade.

    And Shadowcat can't take out Shade. She can't even see him.

    Spectre-x on
  • bobgorilabobgorila Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Did Alan Scott really die?

    I have to know!

    bobgorila on
    I like my women how I like my coffee.

    Anally.
  • ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Spectre-x wrote:
    Fencingsax wrote:
    WW and Shade.

    Diana is magic resistant, and Shade, well, he can screw up Marv, I think.

    Yes except whether or not Diana is magic-resistant is completely irrelevant, seeing as Captain Marvel is still going to hit her hard enough to crack mountains.

    He's faster than her, stronger than her, more durable than her, he has greater stamina than her.

    Captain Marvel and Shade.

    And Shadowcat can't take out Shade. She can't even see him.

    It's only Marvel and Shade, if Wonder Woman and Shadowcat both go down first. Marvel is so getting depowered once he bumps into Shade.

    Scooter on
  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Spectre-x wrote:
    Yes except whether or not Diana is magic-resistant is completely irrelevant, seeing as Captain Marvel is still going to hit her hard enough to crack mountains.

    He's faster than her, stronger than her, more durable than her, he has greater stamina than her.

    I'd put Marvel on almost exactly equal footing with Superman as far as physical strength goes, and he lacks the heat vision, freeze breath, and assorted sensory enhancements that Superman has, yet WW still pummeled Superman pretty well when he was going balls out trying to kill her under Max Lord's control. Given that Marvel also has no firmly established fighting style, and mostly gets by on kick-punch-kick style fighting, I think WW could take him with a combination of Superman-level strength and speed, useful tools and weapons (throwing tiara and unbreakable lasso), and more fighting experience than Marvel could hope to match..

    Munch on
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/943433.html#cutid1

    And since the last match had a bunch of people saying they have no idea what Shade can do, here's the scans_daily post on him.
    Did Alan Scott really die?

    I have to know!

    Shade saves the day and teleports everyone to Jade who gives Alan a green power stuff transfusion.

    robosagogo on
  • Spectre-xSpectre-x Rating: AWESOME YESRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Captain Marvel and Superman are pretty much equal in strength. Wonder Woman is somewhat weaker, physically, than Captain Marvel, and not as fast.

    And Captain Marvel is used to fighting guys like himself, too. Black Adam and such. Sabbac, you name it. Evil Eclipso Superman, whose ass he trounced pretty severely until Eclipso tried to choke Billy.

    Which wouldn't happen in this fight because Billy's not an idiot and can control the lightning now.

    Spectre-x on
  • MonkeydryeMonkeydrye Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Spectre-x wrote:
    Fencingsax wrote:
    WW and Shade.

    Diana is magic resistant, and Shade, well, he can screw up Marv, I think.

    Yes except whether or not Diana is magic-resistant is completely irrelevant, seeing as Captain Marvel is still going to hit her hard enough to crack mountains.

    He's faster than her, stronger than her, more durable than her, he has greater stamina than her.

    Captain Marvel and Shade.

    And Shadowcat can't take out Shade. She can't even see him.

    Is he really faster? I mean he has the speed of Mercury, she has the speed of Hermes...same dude!

    I have always felt like WW could take supes (WAY more tactical and better trained). She also has a razor sharp tiara, can clang her bracelets to make the Aegis shield, and a lasso that can't be broken. She can take Marvel...but it would be tough. But I think they are more like to save each other for last. Kitty it prone to magic...lasso works or the lightning.

    Shade...tougher....

    Monkeydrye on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    shut up and die you fool!

    that is great!

    DouglasDanger on
  • TerrorbyteTerrorbyte __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2006
    Munch wrote:
    Spectre-x wrote:
    Yes except whether or not Diana is magic-resistant is completely irrelevant, seeing as Captain Marvel is still going to hit her hard enough to crack mountains.

    He's faster than her, stronger than her, more durable than her, he has greater stamina than her.

    I'd put Marvel on almost exactly equal footing with Superman as far as physical strength goes, and he lacks the heat vision, freeze breath, and assorted sensory enhancements that Superman has, yet WW still pummeled Superman pretty well when he was going balls out trying to kill her under Max Lord's control. Given that Marvel also has no firmly established fighting style, and mostly gets by on kick-punch-kick style fighting, I think WW could take him with a combination of Superman-level strength and speed, useful tools and weapons (throwing tiara and unbreakable lasso), and more fighting experience than Marvel could hope to match..

    This is hard to disagree with.

    Terrorbyte on
  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Dammit. I thought you were gone...

    Welcome back.




    Marvel has a lot of potential, but I think Wonder Woman might be able to beat him. Wonder Woman could probably beat Superman, especially if he did not have heat vision and freezing breath. Marvel has the lightening going for him, but it would be a very close match.

    However, the Shade can turn Marvel back into Billy. How exactly does that transformation work? Marvel and Billy are two different beings, right?

    DouglasDanger on
  • MonkeydryeMonkeydrye Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Dammit. I thought you were gone...

    Welcome back.




    Marvel has a lot of potential, but I think Wonder Woman might be able to beat him. Wonder Woman could probably beat Superman, especially if he did not have heat vision and freezing breath. Marvel has the lightening going for him, but it would be a very close match.

    However, the Shade can turn Marvel back into Billy. How exactly does that transformation work? Marvel and Billy are two different beings, right?

    I don't like taking a one time thing and making it canon. I mean, if going to the shadow lands makes Marvel turn into Billy, wouldn;t going to ANY dimension do this? I think that was more of a plot device to get Star Girl to meet Billy than actual: Shadowlands beats Marvel.

    Monkeydrye on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Conditional_AxeConditional_Axe Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    I am pretty certain after re-reading Sacrifice that in a fight that isn't straight one-on-one, Diana could kick all kinds of ass. I know she didn't beat Supes, but she put a hurt on him, and he was only fighting the way he did because he thought Diana was Doomsday.

    Conditional_Axe on
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Monkeydrye wrote:
    Dammit. I thought you were gone...

    Welcome back.




    Marvel has a lot of potential, but I think Wonder Woman might be able to beat him. Wonder Woman could probably beat Superman, especially if he did not have heat vision and freezing breath. Marvel has the lightening going for him, but it would be a very close match.

    However, the Shade can turn Marvel back into Billy. How exactly does that transformation work? Marvel and Billy are two different beings, right?

    I don't like taking a one time thing and making it canon. I mean, if going to the shadow lands makes Marvel turn into Billy, wouldn;t going to ANY dimension do this? I think that was more of a plot device to get Star Girl to meet Billy than actual: Shadowlands beats Marvel.

    Any dimension inaccessible by the wizard Shazam. Presumably someone as powerful as him has some access to other dimensions. Problems only arise when it's a dimension that would actively resist him, like the obviously malevolent Shadowlands.

    You really can't ignore something just because it only happened once, unless it's contradicted by a greater number of events from other points in a character's history.

    robosagogo on
  • ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Well, you can ignore something once if it's completely stupid. But this makes sense.

    Scooter on
  • Spectre-xSpectre-x Rating: AWESOME YESRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Scooter wrote:
    Well, you can ignore something once if it's completely stupid. But this makes sense.

    Not so much once you take into account the fact that the Rock fo Eternity, the place where Captain Marvel gets his powers from, exists in all dimensions at the same time. Including, it would seem obvious, the Shadowlands.

    Plus Captain Marvel's power supply is presumably transfinite. He has a large store of magical energy himself, which is constantly being replenished by a magical "broadcast" from the Rock of Eternity, even while he expends it. At least this is pretty logical when you look at his appearances in Day of Vengeance, this hasn't actually officially been stated, but I think it's at least somewhat accurate.

    Anyway, Captain Marvel would still have a large store of magical energy, and he'd just be cut off from his main supply. He also wouldn't change back into Billy if his magic ran out, because it takes extra magic. Another lightning bolt is needed for that. It can't reach the Shadowlands, presumably, so he shouldn't have turned back. He should have just lost his superpowers.

    But it's sort of a moot point because the Rock of Eternity is supposed to exist in all dimensions. Except maybe heaven and hell. I can't recall what they used to travel to heaven in the storyline where they to rescue the Spectre in heaven, and he was all encased in a giant rock and shit. It was with the 5th dimension stuff, I'm pretty sure. Morrison's run. They may have used Zauriel's sword for that, but they could also have used the Rock of Eternity. I think they maybe used the Rock to get into the 5th dimension.

    Buuuuut anyway, there is no reason why the Shadowlands should cut Billy off from his powers. Because of the Rock of Eternity. Which is just a neat thing to type. Rock of Eternity.

    Spectre-x on
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    It should be stated that, since Wonder Woman's invulnerability cannot stop piercing attacks, all Shade needs to do is sharpen his shadow constructs.

    And that bit about the Rock of Eternity does put a wrinkle in things. Too bad I couldn't find any substantial amount of information on the Rock itself. I really don't understand it.

    robosagogo on
  • NinjaSquirrelNinjaSquirrel Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Spectre-x wrote:
    But it's sort of a moot point because the Rock of Eternity is supposed to exist in all dimensions. Except maybe heaven and hell. I can't recall what they used to travel to heaven in the storyline where they to rescue the Spectre in heaven, and he was all encased in a giant rock and shit. It was with the 5th dimension stuff, I'm pretty sure. Morrison's run. They may have used Zauriel's sword for that, but they could also have used the Rock of Eternity. I think they maybe used the Rock to get into the 5th dimension.
    How convenient that I just read this. Captain Marvel does not go with them to heaven to free Spectre. Only Zauriel and the Sentinel go, but they don't really explain by what means they got there, just that those two were the only two that could make the trip. Captain Marvel did use the Rock of Eternity to get to the fifth dimension, where he met the Green Lantern who was sent there by one of the djinns.

    NinjaSquirrel on
  • Spectre-xSpectre-x Rating: AWESOME YESRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Well there you have it. If the Rock leads to the Fifth Dimension, there is no reason why it shouldn't lead to the Shadowlands.

    Heaven and Hell are different, they can use Zauriel's sword to get to both of those by just cutting a hole in the fabric of reality and stepping through.

    Spectre-x on
  • NinjaSquirrelNinjaSquirrel Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    It should also be noted that I think people are under-estimating Marvel's strength. He took out Superman in two punches in the same arc as the 5th dimension travel. Two punches and Superman was down for at least 15 minutes.

    NinjaSquirrel on
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