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EDIT

SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
edited February 2009 in Debate and/or Discourse
EDIT

Sheep on
«134567

Posts

  • SamSam Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    not take advantage of people in a vulnerable situation

    Sam on
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited December 2008
    In general I don't consider people to become "off limits" just because they're in a relationship.

    However, there are devils in them thar details, and every situation is different.
    Sheep wrote: »
    Now _normally_ this would be off limits, but just speaking with her in general I've heard her make comments about dumping him for various reasons.

    Yeah, you gotta ask yourself why hasn't she dumped him yet, and why is she complaining to you?

    - Some people complain even though they have no intention of doing anything about it.

    - Some people complain just to relieve a little emotional pressure in an effort to preserve the relationship they're complaining about.

    - Some people just like getting attention from members of the opposite (or their desired) sex in a safe context. IE., she wants to flirt, she sees you as 'safe' so she flirts with you.

    - And finally some people send off signals without having any clue that they're doing it.

    So while I don't consider it a moral transgression to ask out somebody in a relationship, that doesn't mean it's always a great idea.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    if the above two posts were combined into one, it would be like, the Voltron of forum posts.

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited December 2008
    EDIT

    Sheep on
  • DmanDman Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    I was in a somewhat similar situation at one point in time. We quickly became friends and soon thereafter came an evening where we watched a DVD together late at night. I almost kissed her that evening, as we'd been getting more cuddly as the evening progressed, but I didn't.

    The next morning she ask'd me if I had in fact been about to kiss her (womens, they pick up the the subtlest of body language I swear!) and why I didn't :winky: (she was flirty like that). It was painfully obvious that I had a thing for her and her for me so I just said "well, you have a boyfriend..."

    So we just remained friends for a while, and then dated after she did eventually break up with her boyfriend. We were in high school at the time, so I must admit my emotional maturity was not exactly at its peak.

    If I was going to do it over I'm not sure I'd play it the same way, life is too short. Just go for the kiss, either you get cheek and your friends and need to start dating someone else, or you get lips and she ditches her boyfriend for you.

    Dman on
  • DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited December 2008
    "With someone" is too broad of a category to reasonably apply any sort of absolute ethical solution.

    Doc on
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Doc wrote: »
    "With someone" is too broad of a category to reasonably apply any sort of absolute ethical solution.

    Agreed.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • tsmvengytsmvengy Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    I say go for it - guy sounds like a d-bag and you don't even know him. If something does happen do not let it go too long or far before you ask her what is up with her relationship. I'm talking if you guys start making out on a daily basis you can't let that shit go on for even a week without assessing the situation with her.

    You know, that may sound like a dick post and elicit "well how would you feel if you were the other guy" comments, but if you're in a relationship that isn't in "we're getting married" mode and you leave for months to find a job and you're just dicking around, then maybe you shouldn't count on your significant other sticking around for you.

    tsmvengy on
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  • SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited December 2008
    EDIT

    Sheep on
  • HeartlashHeartlash Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    I've been dating my girlfriend for 3.5 years now. When I met her, she had a long distance boyfriend of a few years from high school. My policy worked pretty much like this:

    -Be friends with her
    -Do not engage in any kind of "hooking up", if she tries to initiate, tell her that you're interested in a relationship with her but she has to sort things out with her relationship first.
    -Do not try to "sabotage" their relationship.
    -Attempt to tell her your feelings if the time is right, but do not present an ultimatum ("leave him for me" etc).

    It took 8 months (yes, 8 months) for things to work themselves out (she left him, we started dating almost immediately after). Since then we've been in a really great relationship with zero in the way of guilt or awkwardness about the former situation.

    Heartlash on
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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited December 2008
    My wife was "with someone" when we met, but she made it clear that she wasn't happy with him and was planning on breaking it off. I pursued the hell out of the relationship, and, well... Now she's my wife. I don't think I did anything wrong - theirs was a relationship that was doomed with or without me, and it was pretty clear that I wasn't interfering so much as intervening at an opportune time.

    If this girl is unhappy with her relationship, and she wants to be with you, she will likely make it clear. Here's a test - next time she bitches, ask her why she doesn't just leave the guy already. If she says anything other than, "Yeah, I think I'll do that next time we meet, he sucks," then she's not planning on leaving him, she's not planning on being with you, and - ethics aside - nothing good will likely come of this.

    My rule of thumb is that if you have to actively lure a woman away from her current guy, you're probably crossing an ethical line.

    ElJeffe on
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  • oldmankenoldmanken Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Well, the way I tend to think of these situations is that it's not really your issue that she has a boyfriend. I mean, there is nothing wrong with making a move... just don't be surprised if you are rebuffed.

    I find myself in such a situation, and the only reason I haven't made any move is because this girls boyfriend is a cop. Now that was a big problem when I was planning to stick around this area for a while, but now that I am moving back to Korea in Feb? Yeah, it's not an issue for me anymore...

    oldmanken on
  • MedopineMedopine __BANNED USERS regular
    edited December 2008
    oldmanken wrote: »
    Well, the way I tend to think of these situations is that it's not really your issue that she has a boyfriend. I mean, there is nothing wrong with making a move... just don't be surprised if you are rebuffed.

    I find myself in such a situation, and the only reason I haven't made any move is because this girls boyfriend is a cop. Now that was a big problem when I was planning to stick around this area for a while, but now that I am moving back to Korea in Feb? Yeah, it's not an issue for me anymore...

    This is stupid.

    Medopine on
  • DefunkerDefunker Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    You should almost certainly distance yourself from her so she ends up settling for a frustrating life with an under-achiever.
    nawt

    Defunker on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • oldmankenoldmanken Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Medopine wrote: »
    oldmanken wrote: »
    Well, the way I tend to think of these situations is that it's not really your issue that she has a boyfriend. I mean, there is nothing wrong with making a move... just don't be surprised if you are rebuffed.

    I find myself in such a situation, and the only reason I haven't made any move is because this girls boyfriend is a cop. Now that was a big problem when I was planning to stick around this area for a while, but now that I am moving back to Korea in Feb? Yeah, it's not an issue for me anymore...

    This is stupid.

    Not stupid... opportunistic.

    oldmanken on
  • NintoNinto Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    There's no ethical dilemma here, unless you get her to cheat on him with you, which you haven't done. Flirting and dropping hints doesn't count as cheating.

    This is better suited for H&A, but I'd say your decision path is pretty clear. Ask her to dump him and give you a shot. Her decision should be pretty straightforward.

    Ninto on
  • oldmankenoldmanken Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    I mean in all seriousness, if you have something better to offer I don't see a dilemma here.

    oldmanken on
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited December 2008
    oldmanken wrote: »
    I mean in all seriousness, if you have something better to offer I don't see a dilemma here.

    The last time we had a thread like this we basically had about a dozen people all saying that if you make a move on somebody who's in a relationship, regardless of the context, you've basically pissed all over that relationship and you're a terrible person.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • DisDis Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Just do it.
    Not like she is married with kids and has a family.

    Dis on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Feral wrote: »
    oldmanken wrote: »
    I mean in all seriousness, if you have something better to offer I don't see a dilemma here.

    The last time we had a thread like this we basically had about a dozen people all saying that if you make a move on somebody who's in a relationship, regardless of the context, you've basically pissed all over that relationship and you're a terrible person.

    The middle ground being:

    You make a move (Hello, you've got a boyfriend I know, but I am soooo much more bonable)

    She responds to your move (Y/N)

    The end.


    The only issue I have is when your move after she says N is (NO! No really! I'm better! *repeat*).

    I got my current girlfriend by saying "no really I am cooler" and her going "eh yeah, I'm not extremely into this guy anyways and you're cute gimme a sec"

    A couple other people have done the same thing, had her say "no I like the guy I'm with" and then not stopped. It's really annoying, and kind of disrespectful to both her wishes and my ability to be the most bonable guy.

    durandal4532 on
    We're all in this together
  • SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited December 2008
    Ninto wrote: »
    There's no ethical dilemma here, unless you get her to cheat on him with you, which you haven't done. Flirting and dropping hints doesn't count as cheating.

    This is better suited for H&A, but I'd say your decision path is pretty clear. Ask her to dump him and give you a shot. Her decision should be pretty straightforward.

    Well, I was kinda anxious to see if there'd be any debate over it.

    Sheep on
  • matisyahumatisyahu Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    I'm not the type of guy who "chases" or "makes moves," but on two separate occasions, I've messed around with girls with boyfriends, one of whom was dating my best friend (we [sort of] laugh about it now), and the other one I didn't find out she had a boyfriend (from back home, we were at uni) until the next morning. I'm horribly unsuccessful with women so I found it odd that they both pursued me.

    I would have felt bad chasing them and kind of told myself that it was okay because they were instigating, but I'm since changed my view on the situation. It would have been okay either way. I'm not a fucking hypnotist, I wouldn't have been coercing them, if they found me more appealing then so be it. YOu can't stake a claim to a person, if they find a 'better' option then who cares. You're not bombing Pearl Harbor here, she is not a Mission Objective, she's not her boyfriend's property, she's a person.

    matisyahu on
    i dont even like matisyahu and i dont know why i picked this username
  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    It's perfectly alright to state your interest or even demonstrate it, as long as you're honest.

    If you say "I'm interested in you and I know you have a boyfriend, but I think you would be happier with me," or something to that effect, it means you don't really care about the other dude, but you don't have to care about them, and maybe they don't even deserve it. And making that statement is fine.

    If you actively try to sabotage their relationship beyond presenting yourself as an option and making yourself attractive to her, then you are doing something unethical.

    Obviously there are exceptions - like if you know it's a good relationship and it's just a temporary fight or something.

    Evil Multifarious on
  • NocturneNocturne Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    It's perfectly alright to state your interest or even demonstrate it, as long as you're honest.

    If you say "I'm interested in you and I know you have a boyfriend, but I think you would be happier with me," or something to that effect, it means you don't really care about the other dude, but you don't have to care about them, and maybe they don't even deserve it. And making that statement is fine.

    If you actively try to sabotage their relationship beyond presenting yourself as an option and making yourself attractive to her, then you are doing something unethical.

    Obviously there are exceptions - like if you know it's a good relationship and it's just a temporary fight or something.

    This.

    I have also had success making my feelings known to a girl that was in a relationship that made her unhappy. That was the best relationship I ever had, but nothing happened between us while she was dating him, or for even a while afterwards as we wanted to give it some time.

    It's definitely better in the long term for her to make a clean break before the two of you do anything physical.

    But basically what EM said.

    Nocturne on
  • KevinNashKevinNash Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Ethically speaking the onus is on her and not you. Hitting on someone who is in a relationship isn't ethically wrong, it's just taboo and potentially very rude without a previous understanding.

    Get past the understanding phase and then let her make the decision. You're just the other guy.

    KevinNash on
  • DibsDibs Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    I used to think exactly like the douche who just wants to fuck some girl with a EDIT: cop boyfriend, but then I grew up.

    If you're really, really, into this girl and you really, really think that her relationship is crap then the best advice has already been doled out. Be her friend, don't box out the man, and if an opportunity arises then you tell her that you like her and that you will not be doing anything so long as she has a boyfriend.

    In general: Unless the the girl is in an abusive relationship, try to respect your fellow man.

    Realize that, while you may be pining for this female, there is a guy on the other end who (may or may not) trust her and be completely oblivious to the fact that you're trying to barge in. It's not even close to a fair fight. If you were in a long-term relationship with a girl and the same 'dead beat' that you stole her away from (but from an alternate universe, for the purpose of this analogy) came along you can bet your ass he could outplay you and win the woman.

    People make mistakes. You can't put all the onus on the woman to turn you down - that's bush league.

    Dibs on
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited December 2008
    Sheep wrote: »
    Ninto wrote: »
    There's no ethical dilemma here, unless you get her to cheat on him with you, which you haven't done. Flirting and dropping hints doesn't count as cheating.

    This is better suited for H&A, but I'd say your decision path is pretty clear. Ask her to dump him and give you a shot. Her decision should be pretty straightforward.

    Well, I was kinda anxious to see if there'd be any debate over it.

    Yes, there should be a debate.

    ElJeffe on
    I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited December 2008
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Sheep wrote: »
    Ninto wrote: »
    There's no ethical dilemma here, unless you get her to cheat on him with you, which you haven't done. Flirting and dropping hints doesn't count as cheating.

    This is better suited for H&A, but I'd say your decision path is pretty clear. Ask her to dump him and give you a shot. Her decision should be pretty straightforward.

    Well, I was kinda anxious to see if there'd be any debate over it.

    Yes, there should be a debate.

    No, you dumb motherfucker, what the hell are you thinking?

    ElJeffe on
    I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited December 2008
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Sheep wrote: »
    Ninto wrote: »
    There's no ethical dilemma here, unless you get her to cheat on him with you, which you haven't done. Flirting and dropping hints doesn't count as cheating.

    This is better suited for H&A, but I'd say your decision path is pretty clear. Ask her to dump him and give you a shot. Her decision should be pretty straightforward.

    Well, I was kinda anxious to see if there'd be any debate over it.

    Yes, there should be a debate.

    No, you dumb motherfucker, what the hell are you thinking?

    Fuck you!

    ElJeffe on
    I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited December 2008
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Sheep wrote: »
    Ninto wrote: »
    There's no ethical dilemma here, unless you get her to cheat on him with you, which you haven't done. Flirting and dropping hints doesn't count as cheating.

    This is better suited for H&A, but I'd say your decision path is pretty clear. Ask her to dump him and give you a shot. Her decision should be pretty straightforward.

    Well, I was kinda anxious to see if there'd be any debate over it.

    Yes, there should be a debate.

    No, you dumb motherfucker, what the hell are you thinking?

    Fuck you!

    No, fuck you! Twice! With a ball-peen hammer tied to a goat!

    ElJeffe on
    I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited December 2008
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Sheep wrote: »
    Ninto wrote: »
    There's no ethical dilemma here, unless you get her to cheat on him with you, which you haven't done. Flirting and dropping hints doesn't count as cheating.

    This is better suited for H&A, but I'd say your decision path is pretty clear. Ask her to dump him and give you a shot. Her decision should be pretty straightforward.

    Well, I was kinda anxious to see if there'd be any debate over it.

    Yes, there should be a debate.

    No, you dumb motherfucker, what the hell are you thinking?

    Fuck you!

    No, fuck you! Twice! With a ball-peen hammer tied to a goat!

    But that doesn't even make sense.

    ElJeffe on
    I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited December 2008
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Sheep wrote: »
    Ninto wrote: »
    There's no ethical dilemma here, unless you get her to cheat on him with you, which you haven't done. Flirting and dropping hints doesn't count as cheating.

    This is better suited for H&A, but I'd say your decision path is pretty clear. Ask her to dump him and give you a shot. Her decision should be pretty straightforward.

    Well, I was kinda anxious to see if there'd be any debate over it.

    Yes, there should be a debate.

    No, you dumb motherfucker, what the hell are you thinking?

    Fuck you!

    No, fuck you! Twice! With a ball-peen hammer tied to a goat!

    But that doesn't even make sense.

    Your face is a sense!

    ElJeffe on
    I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
  • ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    edited December 2008
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    My wife was "with someone" when we met, but she made it clear that she wasn't happy with him and was planning on breaking it off. I pursued the hell out of the relationship, and, well... Now she's my wife. I don't think I did anything wrong - theirs was a relationship that was doomed with or without me, and it was pretty clear that I wasn't interfering so much as intervening at an opportune time.

    My wife and I began dating under similar circumstances. Although, she was also an employee of mine... :|

    That said, yes, pursuing this seems like the action required.


    Also, ElJeffe, you're cracking me up.

    Shadowfire on
  • SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited December 2008
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Sheep wrote: »
    Ninto wrote: »
    There's no ethical dilemma here, unless you get her to cheat on him with you, which you haven't done. Flirting and dropping hints doesn't count as cheating.

    This is better suited for H&A, but I'd say your decision path is pretty clear. Ask her to dump him and give you a shot. Her decision should be pretty straightforward.

    Well, I was kinda anxious to see if there'd be any debate over it.

    Yes, there should be a debate.

    No, you dumb motherfucker, what the hell are you thinking?

    Fuck you!

    No, fuck you! Twice! With a ball-peen hammer tied to a goat!

    But that doesn't even make sense.

    Your face is a sense!

    Hittin the sauce on a Wednesday night huh?

    Sheep on
  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited December 2008
    oldmanken wrote: »
    Medopine wrote: »
    oldmanken wrote: »
    Well, the way I tend to think of these situations is that it's not really your issue that she has a boyfriend. I mean, there is nothing wrong with making a move... just don't be surprised if you are rebuffed.

    I find myself in such a situation, and the only reason I haven't made any move is because this girls boyfriend is a cop. Now that was a big problem when I was planning to stick around this area for a while, but now that I am moving back to Korea in Feb? Yeah, it's not an issue for me anymore...

    This is stupid.

    Not stupid... opportunistic.

    Actually, I'd say the objectionable part is that you're willing to break up a stable relationship BECAUSE you are going to take off in the near future, which seems like an extended one night stand to me.

    Scalfin on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The rest of you, I fucking hate you for the fact that I now have a blue dot on this god awful thread.
  • Toxin01Toxin01 Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Some girls just like to flirt with everyone.

    Also, keep in mind, if shes willing to have a relationship with you while shes with someone else, shes willing to do the same to you.

    Toxin01 on
    Aiden Baail: Level 1 Swordmage: 19 AC 14 Fort 15 Ref 13 Will (Curse Of The Black Pearls)
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  • DetharinDetharin Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    You cannot steal a woman. If shes happy she will stay. If shes not she might jump, some women do not leave bad relationships until they have somewhere to go. This can be a sign of other mental problems, so make sure you are sure what you want before you start trying.

    Detharin on
  • DisDis Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Humans are irrational creatures.

    Dis on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Sheep wrote: »
    I figured things are going smoothly. She's interested in checking out my band the next time we play, liked our demo CD, wants me to have some of her paintings, wanted me to go eat sushi with her this past weekend. Tons of things in common, similar sense of humor, both super laid back... I even got her to toke up with me, something she's said wasn't really her thing. So, why not?

    Things are going progressing smoothly in your friendship with her. She already has a boyfriend. I think that as long as you're fine with being friends and not sticking around on the off chance that she'll 'dump the zero and get with a hero' then everything's alright. I wonder though, how would you feel if the situation was reversed? Hurt and angry? Maybe even both, and you'd probably blame it on the third party entering the situation. I wouldn't seriously consider 'dating' her until her current relationship is over, but the heart wants what it wants I guess.

    Malkor on
    14271f3c-c765-4e74-92b1-49d7612675f2.jpg
  • KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Feral wrote: »
    oldmanken wrote: »
    I mean in all seriousness, if you have something better to offer I don't see a dilemma here.

    The last time we had a thread like this we basically had about a dozen people all saying that if you make a move on somebody who's in a relationship, regardless of the context, you've basically pissed all over that relationship and you're a terrible person.

    I used to be of this opinion, but since then it seems pretty clear that it's a case-by-case thing. Certainly people who try to invade certain relationships are assholes, but in other situations it's pretty much the right thing to do.

    KalTorak on
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