The A/V Receiver Thread of Joy
ElJeffe
Roaming the streets, waving his mod gun around.Moderator, ClubPA Mod Emeritus
Roaming the streets, waving his mod gun around.Moderator, ClubPA Mod Emeritus
We need a thread to discuss receivers. I mean, TVs are cool and all, but your fancy-shmancy 60" 1080p television is lame-o if it doesn't have good sound, and a receiver is the basis for that sound.
So. Receivers, wooooo!
I'm slated to receive a giant wad of green from my taxes, and I will be using a small chunk of that on a receiver (and a good Paradigm subwoofer, but that's a different thread). The one I have in mind is the Marantz SR5003.
It has 3 HDMI inputs, which allows me one to spare, and it upconverts everything to HDMI, so I'll have one, measly cable going to my TV. It has support for Dolby TrueHD, decent power, good sound, and looks fucking sexy.
Alternately, we have the Onkyo TX-SR605 which has largely the same feature set (though only 2 HDMI inputs, so no expandability) but allegedly lackluster analog upscaling. It's a couple hundred bucks cheaper, though.
Courtesy of awesome people, we now have some general information and terminology guides.
On terminology:
Some basic information:
So. Receivers, wooooo!
I'm slated to receive a giant wad of green from my taxes, and I will be using a small chunk of that on a receiver (and a good Paradigm subwoofer, but that's a different thread). The one I have in mind is the Marantz SR5003.
It has 3 HDMI inputs, which allows me one to spare, and it upconverts everything to HDMI, so I'll have one, measly cable going to my TV. It has support for Dolby TrueHD, decent power, good sound, and looks fucking sexy.
Alternately, we have the Onkyo TX-SR605 which has largely the same feature set (though only 2 HDMI inputs, so no expandability) but allegedly lackluster analog upscaling. It's a couple hundred bucks cheaper, though.
Courtesy of awesome people, we now have some general information and terminology guides.
On terminology:
Here are some basic terms you need to know:.
Receiver Terms:HTiB (Home Theater In A Box) - The entry-level sound system. Generally this is going to be an AVR, possibly a DVD player, and some cheap speakers for a 5 or even 5.1 setup. More expensive HTiBs usually mean better speakers.
AVR (Audio-Video Receiver) - This is what most people get for their setup. They generally include video inputs, audio inputs, radios (AM,FM,sometimes satellite), pre-amps and power amps, speaker outputs, etc. Basically everything you need to run your setup. More recently, upconversions have become standard, where your component video and non-HD video can be upconverted to HDMI 1080p. The results of this vary depending on the receiver.
Separates - These are for the purists, the ones who want the best audio possible. They split the all-in-one functionality of the AVR into two pieces. The preamplifier will handle the connectivity and processing aspects of sound and video. The power amplifier is exactly that: a speaker driver. The logic is by separating these components, you reduce interference and remove compromises that are made in AVRs.
Multizone - A common feature on mid- to high-end receivers, this allows you to wire a room with separate speakers. This second room may come with limitations on what inputs can be used. It may also reduce a 7.1 setup to a 5.1 setup.
OSD - On-screen displays are becoming important for people buying AVRs, so you'll see this a lot.
Audyssey MultEQ - A cool system using an included mic that allows the receiver to to calibrate itself to your speaker placement. People on AVSForum seem to like it (at least from what I've seen).
Audyssey Dynamic Volume - Supposed to dramatically increase sound quality at low volume levels, as well as reduce that volume shock you hear when a TV show switches to overly loud commercials.
DSP - Additional effects the receiver will apply to sound. Generally you will want to leave these off, as they modify the music/movie/game soundtrack the designer intended for you to hear.
Speaker terms:Wire gauge - How thick your wire is. Thicker wire can travel longer distances. 16 AWG is generally enough for most people's needs. A good chart about this can be found here.
Bi-Wiring - You'll notice that some speakers will have the ability to wire their tweeters and woofers separately. This can allow for better separation of the frequency ranges. It will also require a mother of an AVR or separates to do this AND surround sound at the same time.
Crossover Frequency - The frequency that divides whether signals are sent to your sub or your speakers. I think 80 Hz is a typical frequency to use here.
Banana Plug Speaker Posts - Most people are familiar with unscrewing a post, shoving a speaker wire under it, and screwing it back down. You can get these plugs to put the wire into instead. This plug then inserts directly into the top of the post. Some people will tell you this introduces another connection in the chain, causing loss. Others will tell you that loss is undetectable and the convenience is awesome.
A brief summary of Audio codecs:Dolby Digital, DTS - Lossy 5.1 codecs - Can be transmitted over optical, digital coax, or HDMI. Sound is compressed for transmission, and will lose some fidelity as a result.
Dolby Digital EX, DTS-ES - Lossy 6.1 codecs - Dolby's way of sneaking a center-back channel in by matrixing sound. DTS-ES Discrete actually has the 6th channel in there, while DTS-ES Matrix will behave like DD-EX. Same lossy compression as DD/DTS, same wire requirements (Optical, Digital Coax, HDMI).
Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD MA - Lossless 7.1 codecs - These are only possible over HDMI. While compression may be used, it is lossless. Note that these can be UP to 7.1...in practice many TrueHD/HD-MA tracks will still be 5.1, but they will be lossless.
Linear PCM - Raw sound data. This is what is being compressed into all the above formats. Optical can only handle two channels of this...surround sound requires HDMI.
This is just scratching the surface, but it may get you started
Some basic information:
A bit of a simplification, but here goes a high-level rundown. Functionally audio gets broken down into: audio decoding/processing, amplification, and air displacement.
Most home theatre receivers (HTRs) combine audio decoding/processing and amplification. Though if the HTR has pre-outs you can use it just a surround sound processor (pre-pro). Audio decoding takes an encoded audio stream (Dolby Digital, DTS, DTS-MA, Dolby TrueHD, etc.) and decodes it so that the various channels are separated from one another and uses Digital-to-Analog Converters (DACs) to produce analog output. There may additionally be some audio processing where magic is performed, tweaking the channels in relation to one another (soundfields) or matrixing the audio (making a stereo recording play sound out of all 7 speakers).
The decoded/processed audio is then either directly amplified to speaker wire binding posts (in many HTRs), or is sent un-amplified to pre-outs (the subwoofer outs in N.1 and N.2 systems).
If you follow the speaker wire into the speaker (e.g. a typical bookshelf with a 5.5" driver and a 1" tweeter) you'll hit a crossover which determines the cutoff in frequency handled by the two speaker elements. Higher frequncies get sent to the higher frequency driver (the tweeter) and lower frequencies are handled by the other driver.
A powered subwoofer is a different case, in that not only does it provide its own amplification, but its "crossover" is just a knob (low frequency cutoff) which determine what's the highest frequency it's going to play.
Separate to all of this is the video switching/scaling component of an HTR. The HTR is usually the device you're going to use to switch between video sources displayed on the monitor. These features are completely independent of the audio decoding functionality. Typically you want to know if lesser video codecs get transcoded and/or upscaled to preferred resolution for your viewing device, and you may be interested in the various video processing modes and the ability to turn them off if it starts to cause audio/video sync issues.
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ElJeffe on
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I was thinking of getting either the VSX-1018AH-K or one of the new Pioneer Receivers set to launch next month: Link
I have a 32" Sharp LC-32D64U though, Not sure if this receiver would be overkill or not. I plan on buying bookshelf speakers as the FL/FR/RR/RL speakers anda good matching center channel.
Is Pioneer's mainstream line good? I know their Elites are wonderful, but I know little about the non-Elites.
i'm already going to assume that you two already have a nice set of speakers to output this to right? i only have a 5 channel setup so i would rather skip out on the 7 channel stuff, but i want the third hdmi input so i'm kinda screwed.
Screw 7-channel; it's pretty pointless unless you have a huge room.
@Luq - No idea. That sounds more like a PC question than a receiver question. What sort of options do you have, and what are you trying to output? Game audio?
I was actually thinking of getting the Onkyo HT-S6100.
It has really good reviews and includes a receiver that is very similar to the SR-606. It seems to lack SR-606's multi room support.
The HT-S7100 actually comes with a SR-606.
Anyone have any thoughts on these? I'm trying to build a home theater, but it seems that this would be cheaper than buying separate receiver and speakers, while still getting good quality.
Poring through the options for audio-only yielded this well-reviewed entry-level Pioneer which, once I saw on clearance at Newegg, I figured I might as well snap up.
This is my first proper HT system, the TV having spent a year being piped through my old stereo from college. Anything I should know setting it up?
PSN:RevDrGalactus/NN:RevDrGalactus/Steam
if you end up getting a all-in-one kit, you'll save a few bucks, but why buy a nice receiver if its not paired with equal quality speakers? of course some surround is probably better than no surround, but you should take it into account. it's hard to determine without hearing them yourself though... there's only so much impedance and range specs are going to be able to tell you..
I mean, by all accounts, the Onkyo SR606 is a competent receiver, so something with that as its basis is going to be at least halfway decent. If you need to get HT for under a grand, it's not a terrible idea (especially if buying used is beneath you).
But yes, hand-picked speakers with a good receiver is the way to go, speaking long-term.
But I'm not rich so I end up living vicariously through pictures people who do have money post.
Speaking of, if anyone actually knows of a receiver/decoder with multiple channels of preamp output, that would be awesome.
Indeed, I do feel inadequate in regards to my TV's size, heh. I kept kicking myself for not going for the 37" or 42" version of this model, but I sit only 5' away from the screen at most though.
I keep hearing that the 1018AH-K is an exceptional model, particularly because of the fact that it has an Elite Amplifier encased inside a Mainstream chassis. And at the same time I hear that the new models may not be as good as the 1018AH-K, since it's speculated that Pioneer got rid of the Elite amplifier on the mainstream top-of-the-line model. But it has an extra HDMI output and a couple more features at a slightly reduced price.
I can't decide. That, and I feel like the 1018AH-K models are disappearing fast.
@ElJeffe regarding the settings, I will take a screenshot later.
Baby steps.
I should say in my search for a HT starter I almost considered one of those $99 RCA box sets from Wal-Mart. The fact that I found an actual Pioneer system on clearance for $80 more saved me from this fate.
PSN:RevDrGalactus/NN:RevDrGalactus/Steam
They have tons of receivers with outputs that allow you to convert your receiver to a pre/pro. They just run a little more than the entry-level receivers. The Marantz I linked to, for example, has preamp outputs, and it only runs $800 (and you can find it for around $550 new if you shop around). It's a great option, because it allows you to baby-step your way to separates. Which is my plan.
It'll be pricy, though. Decent mono-block amps run a few hundred bucks a pop, times four (don't need one for a powered sub). Or you can go for a 4- or 6-channel amp for a grand+. And dedicated pre/pros start at $1000.
My eventual goal is something like this paired with one of these.
I mean, that amp looks fucking bad-ass. Like when turn it on, it may either provide awesome and smooth power to your speakers, or it may vaporize you with its death ray.
What you want is a pre-amp processor, shit be starting to get expensive for you.
ElJeffe: It works for the SR5003 and brings it to 6 bills. I want to pick up the sr4003 myself (and it's a great price with this coupon), but I've some home improvement and landscaping projects that command all disposeable funds right now. Was thinking 4003 over 5003 cause my PS3 is going to be my only HD-audio player/decoder so I don't need as much HD-audio decoding on my HTR.
Strictly speaking, I don't need the 5003 for the TrueHD decoding since I have a PS3 too, but I figure I won't be using that as a BD player forever, and would hate to wind up being unable to utilize TrueHD down the road because I skimped. Also, the 4003 doesn't upconvert to HDMI. Also, the 5003's Audessey auto-calibration is supposed to be sexy. And it has support for DeepColor, just in case anyone decides to implement it someday.
Ooh, and it lets you block out front-panel commands! They made it Riley-proof! Yessss!
I see.... So basically to get what I want I have to buy from consumer audiophile brands and pay their penis-wavery tax. Is there no pro audio equivalent to these?
But yeah, if you want to go with separates, you're looking at a couple grand, not counting speakers. Mostly because under that price, the fidelity of the hardware isn't so awesome that it really suffers from having the amps in close proximity to the pre-amp. The point of separates is to provide greater shielding for the innards, and that kind of super-shielding just isn't necessary for the kind of equipment you can pick up for $500.
I was speaking specifically to that last bit. And I read it as multi-pre-out per input that has undergone audio-processing (what I mean here is: 1 hdmi source audio in, processed and giving 2X of 5.1/6.1/7.1 channel pre-outs). If you just want 1 set of multi-channel pre-outs this can be easily had in many a $500 HTR, and some $300 HTR's.
If you want multiple multi-channel pre-outs on the cheap, I suppose you could try use a combination of splitters and devices that will amplify to line level on a set of HTR pre-outs. Though I don't envy your trying to avoid hum/feedback given how many powered stages are involved here between source and speaker.
It's possible there are non-crazy-priced HTR's that have multiple multi-channel pre-outs, it's just not a feature I've looked for.
Yeah, not making sense. Rigor Mortis was either talking about multi-channel outputs, or he has a very peculiar listening arrangement.
And while the chances actually of convincing my wife I need to fulfill my dream of having seven or eight towers in our townhouse is rather small.... I would like to add rears. I don't really need a sub though, not with the bass on the bx8as, so the ability to send full range frequencies to all surrounds so that I could use the sub out for my transducers... that would be even better.
Basically something like this but not discontinued, and for home theatre....
What would be thoroughly perfect in every way was if said receiver could also output the front L/R as a stereo SPDIF signal while outputting the rest of the 5.1 as analog, so I could route the channels I need for monitoring through the EQ digitally.... but I'd be shocked and amazed if something that esoteric existed.
Really, I love those speakers more than is probably healthy. You may hear from some people that sometimes at night I just sit in the dark and ever so gently caress them. Those people are liars. Aren't they, baby? Yes, they don't understand what we have together. Sing me a sweet lullaby, precious.
All right, people. It is not a gerbil. It is not a hamster. It is not a guinea pig. It is a death rabbit. Death. Rabbit. Say it with me, now.
What sort of price range do you consider reasonable? For around $500, you can easily find good receivers to meet your needs - Onkyo, Yamaha, Denon, Marantz to name a few. (Sony has some competent, if somewhat overpriced, receivers; but I was looking at one of their newer ones, and even at $1000, it didn't have pre-amp outs.) For $200, probably not so much.
Cheapest I could find was a used last gen HTR like this one and here's the current gen of that model. It's too bad, the low end Yamaha RX-V's used to all have a full set of pre-outs, but now that's not the case.
Edit: Ahh, I was speaking about the RX-V630, which I was told was low-end for an RX-V. If the RX-V665 is the current gen of the same model then they haven't de-contented it.
Define "used to"... I currently have an old RX-V520, which was on the low end of mid-range when I got it, and it didn't have pre-amp outs. Maybe the golden era was after its time?
I've been using Klipsch as "entry level" speakers. I posted on here looking for midrange speakers a month or so ago and was going to start building a Paradigm Studio 5.1 setup, but then got fucked by some late medical bills (and I mean LATE). So right now I'm rounding out my current Klipsch B-2 fronts with a C-2 and two S-2s. They sound great considering their price.
However, please elaborate on the "entire setup" offer you're talking about. I've been seeing those Synergy III deals on BestBuy ads and those things aren't that great. In terms of the receiver thread, I haven't gotten a chance to try it out yet but my Onkyo TX-SR606 came in right before I left on a wknd trip...I'll be playing with it soon.
PSN: TheScrublet
I'm curious to hear some first-hand accounts.
1. I only have 2 speakers for the reason mentioned above. And oh yea my replacement B-2 front I ordered came in with a buzz so I'm still on hold using the receiver.
2. My TV doesn't have HDMI. I was going to jump on a Pio 5020 but that decision got pushed for the same reason as the speakers. I'm now waiting to see how the new Panny V10 does. Not having HDMI means I can't test this speaker's A/D conversion, upconversion, GUI, OR Dolby TrueHD/DTS-MA.
3. Not having the HDMI also means I can't verify the Onkyo blue dot issue with 1080p video (even straight pass-through video). If you don't know what I'm talking about, search the AVSForums about it. Seems to be pretty prevalent. As my current non-HDMI TV is only 1080i, won't be an issue for me.
Note: I will say a common complaint I saw about the 605 is its insane heat levels. I can't speak for everyone, but just in my initial use testing the 2 speakers my well-ventilated 606 didn't get too hot at all.
PSN: TheScrublet
From what I've heard the '06 Onkyo line is a downgrade from the '05 line except in terms of number of HDMI ports. However, that more affects the 706/806 and up. It's probably less noticeable (if at all) in lower-end models, and for the level of use that seems to be talked about here.
That said, as far as lower-mid-level receivers go these days, they're all pretty similar in terms of performance. The Onkyo 605 was significant back when it first came out because it was the first to offer HD audio codecs at an entry-level pricepoint. But that was around two years ago, and now Pioneer, Yamaha, HK, etc. all have similar offerings for similar prices. AV receivers can be quirky bits of messes though and can have weird little annoying problems that you wouldn't know about until you take them home and use them for a while (unfixable lip sync problems, terrible video conversion that can't be turned off, exceptionally awful lag for music games, etc). So if I was in the market for a new receiver, here's what I would do: pick out three or four at my price point, pick the prettiest one, and then research the shit out of at at someplace like AVSforums. Chances are there's a dedicated thread about any receiver you can think of--if no one in there is complaining about a problem that sounds like a deal-breaker to you, then bam, you got a winner.
As for the receivers mentioned in this thread, I'll just say that I read a LOT of audio forums but have almost never heard anything bad said about Marantz. The 5300 definitely looks like a good choice. Similarly, the Pioneer 1018 is supposed to perform beyond its pricepoint.
Yeah they do the whole shebang. They even do car audio!
I was thinking about a McIntosh receiver for the car, that way possible car stereo jackers will take one look at it and think. "Bah, piece of shit old car stereo".
But then again, maybe I'm underestimating car jackers these days.
I still feel salty about my Alpine HU being stolen.
The mcintosh HUs look pretty classy. All glass face and what not. Plus they are only covered under warranty if bought from a license mcintosh dealer and installed by a licensed installer.
It is pretty fucking beautiful, though. It's just a few price points past anything I care about. I would need bionic ears to really take advantage of the extra dough.
Yeah, their home stereo stuff I am totally willing to pay for. I mean, a turntable that actually levitates the platter to eliminate drag is worth it. But in my car? I could give two shits.