The Cuban Embargo

Ethan Smith

Obama, and Congress at large have been supporting weakening the Embargo, and within the week we'll likely see lower regulations on who can go to the country, and by the end of the Obama administration we'll probably have seen a massive decrease in the embargo.

Personally, my opinion is that this will be greatly helpful both to the Cuban economy (which has a great amount of potential), and the American economy (investment in pharmasuticals, rum distilleries, Cuban printing houses), and besides this the embargo has done little to nothing to the Cubans besides leave many of them starving.

What's your opinion?

moniker

Good. If Florida wasn't so important in the General this might have happened decades ago and Cuba wouldn't be such a shithole right now.

Obs

Will Sugar become cheaper if this embargo ends?

moniker

Obs wrote: »

Will Sugar become cheaper if this embargo ends?

I doubt it. For one thing we aren't going to drop the idiotic tariffs thanks to the corn lobby; for two I don't see how Cuba would cause a major surge in the available sugar cane crop, and besides it's a globally priced commodity, so their current capacity is already priced in as other countries can buy shit from them.

The ease of getting a Cuban cigar will improve, if not necessarily impact the price.

Obs

Tragic

We need to fuck the corn lobby up one of these years.

Sterica

People who want the embargo to remain need to offer alternatives. It's been up for decades and has done nothing.

Ethan Smith

Even Obs hates the Corn Lobby.

I'm going to establish another law with El Jeffe's law-

The D&D law
As someone posts in D&D, likelyness of hating the Corn Lobby approaches 1.

Besides this, I'd like to point out that Cuba has many things to teach us when the Embargo goes down. They have a far more efficient healthcare system considering how little medicine they get, they have a far more efficient education system (though it is indoctrinating), and they have an army that's far more capable of fighting insurgencies (if you look at Angola)

moniker

Obs wrote: »

Tragic

We need to fuck the corn lobby up one of these years.

Ain't gonna happen so long as the Midwest and Plains states have 2 senators each. I'm just glad that the map has changed enough where we can tell Florida (and thus the little Havana hawks) to fuck off and get away with it.

Cpunk

Obs wrote: »

Tragic

We need to fuck the corn lobby up one of these years.

Did...did I just agree with Obs?

moniker

Ethan Smith wrote: »

Even Obs hates the Corn Lobby.

I'm going to establish another law with El Jeffe's law-

The D&D law
As someone posts in D&D, likelyness of hating the Corn Lobby approaches 1.

Besides this, I'd like to point out that Cuba has many things to teach us when the Embargo goes down. They have a far more efficient healthcare system considering how little medicine they get, they have a far more efficient education system (though it is indoctrinating), and they have an army that's far more capable of fighting insurgencies (if you look at Angola)

I'm not so sure about their healthcare and education systems, but they are pretty awesome when it comes to dealing with hurricanes and just general disaster preparedness.

Res

Fifty years late.

Neaden

Cpunk wrote: »

Obs wrote: »

Tragic

We need to fuck the corn lobby up one of these years.

Did...did I just agree with Obs?

God damnit...What do we do now? Could the Corn Lobby not be as bad as I though? Is HFCS good for me?

Andrew_Jay

moniker wrote: »

Obs wrote: »

Will Sugar become cheaper if this embargo ends?

I doubt it. For one thing we aren't going to drop the idiotic tariffs thanks to the corn lobby; for two I don't see how Cuba would cause a major surge in the available sugar cane crop, and besides it's a globally priced commodity, so their current capacity is already priced in as other countries can buy shit from them.

The ease of getting a Cuban cigar will improve, if not necessarily impact the price.

I've heard that Cuban sugar output has been very poor lately and even they have to import the stuff. Something about turning sugar cane fields over to general food production (which also needs to be imported). So there likely won't be any Cuban sugar making its way north.

But I say remove the embargo right away. It's been obvious for decades that it had never accomplished anything, and easing trade, travel and the exchange of ideas will do more to bring the communists down than the current policy of doing the opposite ever did.

Medopine

yay! I want to go there

Thanatos

Rorus Raz wrote: »

People who want the embargo to remain need to offer alternatives. It's been up for decades and has done nothing.

Well, it helped keep Castro in power.

Thanatos

Medopine wrote: »

yay! I want to go there

Nah, the best thing about Cuba is the lack of annoying American tourists.

This is going to suck for Canada.

Medopine

Thanatos wrote: »

Medopine wrote: »

yay! I want to go there

Nah, the best thing about Cuba is the lack of annoying American tourists.

This is going to suck for Canada.

mm doesn't really change my attitude

Zimmydoom

Thanatos wrote: »

Rorus Raz wrote: »

People who want the embargo to remain need to offer alternatives. It's been up for decades and has done nothing.

Well, it helped keep Castro in power.

I wonder how this will impact economic development in the region as a whole. Virtually every island in the Caribbean is dirt-poor, and having shunned Cuba for a half-century can't have helped matters any.

If nothing else, the quality of MLB pitching is about to get a boost.

chasm

Thanatos wrote: »

Rorus Raz wrote: »

People who want the embargo to remain need to offer alternatives. It's been up for decades and has done nothing.

Well, it helped keep Castro in power.

Agreed. I don't think it's really done anything constructive.

(Oh fuck, I agreed with Thanatos AND Obs in the same thread ohshitohshitohshit)

Kilroy

The embargo is probably one of the dumbest and most embarrassing aspects of U.S. foreign policy.

The Cold War is over.

werehippy

I'm still confused why the hell we thought it was a good idea in the first place.

moniker

werehippy wrote: »

I'm still confused why the hell we thought it was a good idea in the first place.

Because the Bay of Pigs was a horrible fiasco, but Kennedy didn't want to look like a pussy and couldn't do any actual military actions after the Cuban Missile Crisis.

werehippy

moniker wrote: »

werehippy wrote: »

I'm still confused why the hell we thought it was a good idea in the first place.

Because the Bay of Pigs was a horrible fiasco, but Kennedy didn't want to look like a pussy and couldn't do any actual military actions after the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Sure that's the reason, but did anyone actually believe the whole "You know what people like? Being oppressed for supporting their chosen leaders! That'll get 'em on our side, boy howdy." line of reasoning that's the reason people say in public?

stawk

Kilroy wrote: »

The embargo is probably one of the dumbest and most embarrassing aspects of U.S. foreign policy.

The Cold War is over.

i dont know... i think we have a ton more embarrasing parts of our foreign policy

Duki

You're going to own the entire island in a week.

AngelHedgie

Kilroy wrote: »

The embargo is probably one of the dumbest and most embarrassing aspects of U.S. foreign policy.

The Cold War is over.

But the Embargo was never about the Cold War. It was about a bunch of entitled rich fucks getting upset that reality bit them in the ass.

Ethan Smith

werehippy wrote: »

moniker wrote: »

werehippy wrote: »

I'm still confused why the hell we thought it was a good idea in the first place.

Because the Bay of Pigs was a horrible fiasco, but Kennedy didn't want to look like a pussy and couldn't do any actual military actions after the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Sure that's the reason, but did anyone actually believe the whole "You know what people like? Being oppressed for supporting their chosen leaders! That'll get 'em on our side, boy howdy." line of reasoning that's the reason people say in public?

The problem is that Cuba was our bitch for pretty much the entire 19th and early 20th century. We pretty much saw it, if not a state, then as a country which, if they put up a new leader, we'll send like 10 marines and their whole gov't would capitulate and they'd vote who we wanted.

Each and every politician who became president during the Cold War grew up at a time when Cuba was our bitch, so it was hard to believe that "hey, add a little bit more pressure and the country will fall apart!" wasn't a good idea, because it had worked for 70 years.

Willy-Bob Gracchus

I remember seeing a great docu a few years back about CIA attempts to take out Castro, and one former CIA bottlewasher describing Castro as having the same effect on the Pentagon/Langley as "a full moon on a werewolf". During the 50's, 60's and 70's, he just infuriated them beyond the point of reason, especially given that they could use the rest of Latin America as a litter box at will.

Edit - here's the docu - 638 Ways to Kill Castro - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0918485/

Couscous

The assassination attempts are fucked up.

Fabian Escalante, who was long tasked with protecting the life of Castro, estimated the number of assassination schemes or attempts by the CIA to be 638. Some such attempts allegedly included an exploding cigar, a fungal-infected scuba-diving suit, and a mafia-style shooting. Some of these plots are depicted in a documentary entitled 638 Ways to Kill Castro.[69] One of these attempts was by his ex-lover Marita Lorenz whom he met in 1959. She allegedly agreed to aid the CIA and attempted to smuggle a jar of cold cream containing poison pills into his room. When Castro realized, he reportedly gave her a gun and told her to kill him but her nerve failed.[70] Castro once said, in regards to the numerous attempts on his life he believes have been made, "If surviving assassination attempts were an Olympic event, I would win the gold medal."

According to the Family Jewels documents declassified by the CIA in 2007, one such assassination attempt before the Bay of Pigs invasion involved Johnny Roselli and Al Capone's successor in the Chicago Outfit, Salvatore Giancana and his right-hand man Santos Trafficante. It was personally authorized by then US attorney general Robert Kennedy [71].

Giancana and Miami Syndicate leader Santos Trafficante were contacted in September 1960 about the possibility of an assassination attempt by a go-between from the CIA, Robert Maheu, after Maheu had contacted Johnny Roselli, a member of the Las Vegas Syndicate and Giancana's number-two man. Maheu had presented himself as a representative of numerous international business firms in Cuba that were being expropriated by Castro. He offered $150,000 for the "removal" of Castro through this operation (the documents suggest that neither Roselli nor Giancana and Trafficante accepted any sort of payments for the job). According to the files, it was Giancana who suggested using a series of poison pills that could be used to doctor Castro's food and drink. These pills were given by the CIA to Giancana's nominee Juan Orta, whom Giancana presented as being an official in the Cuban government who was also in the pay of gambling interests, and who did have access to Castro. After a series of six attempts to introduce the poison into Castro's food, Orta abruptly demanded to be let out of the mission, handing over the job to another, unnamed participant. Later, a second attempt was mounted through Giancana and Trafficante using Dr. Anthony Verona, the leader of the Cuban Exile Junta, who had, according to Trafficante, become "disaffected with the apparent ineffectual progress of the Junta". Verona requested $10,000 in expenses and $1,000 worth of communications equipment. However, it is unknown how far the second attempt went, as the entire program was cancelled shortly thereafter due to the launching of the Bay of Pigs Invasion. [72][73] [74]

Inquisitor

Ethan Smith wrote: »

Even Obs hates the Corn Lobby.

I'm going to establish another law with El Jeffe's law-

The D&D law
As someone posts in D&D, likelyness of hating the Corn Lobby approaches 1.

Besides this, I'd like to point out that Cuba has many things to teach us when the Embargo goes down. They have a far more efficient healthcare system considering how little medicine they get, they have a far more efficient education system (though it is indoctrinating), and they have an army that's far more capable of fighting insurgencies (if you look at Angola)

Yeah, and we could also learn how to keep people from owning personal computers and acessing the internet!

Woo!

moniker

Inquisitor wrote: »

Ethan Smith wrote: »

Even Obs hates the Corn Lobby.

I'm going to establish another law with El Jeffe's law-

The D&D law
As someone posts in D&D, likelyness of hating the Corn Lobby approaches 1.

Besides this, I'd like to point out that Cuba has many things to teach us when the Embargo goes down. They have a far more efficient healthcare system considering how little medicine they get, they have a far more efficient education system (though it is indoctrinating), and they have an army that's far more capable of fighting insurgencies (if you look at Angola)

Yeah, and we could also learn how to keep people from owning personal computers and acessing the internet!

Woo!

Inquisitor

moniker wrote: »

You're no fun.

Hopefully ending the embargo will lead to an increase in human rights in cuba, but, we'll just have to wait and see.

Kipling217

Fuck its about time!

The US has been trying to overthrow the Castro regime for 50 years and its still standing. 50 years of going up against the biggest. meanest(only) superpower in the western world and they are still standing.

The US giving up on sanctions more about the US saving face then anything else. The sanctions where making the US look weak and stupid.

Remember Vietnam? The country that sent 60 000 US boys back home in body bag? the US do business with them.

BladeX

Thanatos wrote: »

Medopine wrote: »

yay! I want to go there

Nah, the best thing about Cuba is the lack of annoying American tourists.

This is going to suck for Canada.

Shit! Now I'm going to have to visit before this happens! :P

All kidding aside, it's about damn time! I thought it was pretty ridiculous that if I had a friend from the states who came and visited me and they smoked a Cuban cigar in my home in Canada, they were still breaking the law .

DarkCrawler

Couscous wrote: »

The assassination attempts are fucked up.

Fabian Escalante, who was long tasked with protecting the life of Castro, estimated the number of assassination schemes or attempts by the CIA to be 638. Some such attempts allegedly included an exploding cigar, a fungal-infected scuba-diving suit, and a mafia-style shooting. Some of these plots are depicted in a documentary entitled 638 Ways to Kill Castro.[69] One of these attempts was by his ex-lover Marita Lorenz whom he met in 1959. She allegedly agreed to aid the CIA and attempted to smuggle a jar of cold cream containing poison pills into his room. When Castro realized, he reportedly gave her a gun and told her to kill him but her nerve failed.[70] Castro once said, in regards to the numerous attempts on his life he believes have been made, "If surviving assassination attempts were an Olympic event, I would win the gold medal."

According to the Family Jewels documents declassified by the CIA in 2007, one such assassination attempt before the Bay of Pigs invasion involved Johnny Roselli and Al Capone's successor in the Chicago Outfit, Salvatore Giancana and his right-hand man Santos Trafficante. It was personally authorized by then US attorney general Robert Kennedy [71].

Giancana and Miami Syndicate leader Santos Trafficante were contacted in September 1960 about the possibility of an assassination attempt by a go-between from the CIA, Robert Maheu, after Maheu had contacted Johnny Roselli, a member of the Las Vegas Syndicate and Giancana's number-two man. Maheu had presented himself as a representative of numerous international business firms in Cuba that were being expropriated by Castro. He offered $150,000 for the "removal" of Castro through this operation (the documents suggest that neither Roselli nor Giancana and Trafficante accepted any sort of payments for the job). According to the files, it was Giancana who suggested using a series of poison pills that could be used to doctor Castro's food and drink. These pills were given by the CIA to Giancana's nominee Juan Orta, whom Giancana presented as being an official in the Cuban government who was also in the pay of gambling interests, and who did have access to Castro. After a series of six attempts to introduce the poison into Castro's food, Orta abruptly demanded to be let out of the mission, handing over the job to another, unnamed participant. Later, a second attempt was mounted through Giancana and Trafficante using Dr. Anthony Verona, the leader of the Cuban Exile Junta, who had, according to Trafficante, become "disaffected with the apparent ineffectual progress of the Junta". Verona requested $10,000 in expenses and $1,000 worth of communications equipment. However, it is unknown how far the second attempt went, as the entire program was cancelled shortly thereafter due to the launching of the Bay of Pigs Invasion. [72][73] [74]

"Is that a gunman?!"

"QUICK MR. CASTRO GO DOWN!"

*BLAM BLAM BLAM*

*Later, on Castro's Communist Temple of Doom*

Castro: "Well, assassin...your attempt was thwarted, you were captured...only one question remains....WHO SENT YOU?"

For a few seconds, the gunman and Castro look at eachother with serious faces. Then both start laughing hysterically.

Thanatos

Inquisitor wrote: »

Ethan Smith wrote: »

Even Obs hates the Corn Lobby.

I'm going to establish another law with El Jeffe's law-

The D&D law
As someone posts in D&D, likelyness of hating the Corn Lobby approaches 1.

Besides this, I'd like to point out that Cuba has many things to teach us when the Embargo goes down. They have a far more efficient healthcare system considering how little medicine they get, they have a far more efficient education system (though it is indoctrinating), and they have an army that's far more capable of fighting insurgencies (if you look at Angola)

Yeah, and we could also learn how to keep people from owning personal computers and acessing the internet!

Woo!

To quote the West Wing: "the people are going to be oppressed whether or not we sell them cheeseburgers; so, why not sell them cheeseburgers?"

Clearly, not selling them cheeseburgers hasn't worked.

Inquisitor

Thanatos wrote: »

To quote the West Wing: "the people are going to be oppressed whether or not we sell them cheeseburgers; so, why not sell them cheeseburgers?"

Clearly, not selling them cheeseburgers hasn't worked.

Indeed, the embargo is dumb and the sooner it is over the better.

I'm hoping the US ending its embargo might lead to Cuba ending its 'embargo' on foreign radio and media, but, my hopes are not high.

Willy-Bob Gracchus

There are plenty of folks being far more oppressed by regimes that western states trip over each giggling to drop their panties for.

Quick straw poll: where would you rather be, Cuba or Saudi Arabia?

Inquisitor

I'm going to be honest here, I have no idea what you are trying to say in your first sentence Willy.

As for your straw poll, Cuba. Because I have family there. :P

Willy-Bob Gracchus

Let me tidy that up a little...:oops:

Thanatos

Inquisitor wrote: »

Thanatos wrote: »

To quote the West Wing: "the people are going to be oppressed whether or not we sell them cheeseburgers; so, why not sell them cheeseburgers?"

Clearly, not selling them cheeseburgers hasn't worked.

Indeed, the embargo is dumb and the sooner it is over the better.

I'm hoping the US ending its embargo might lead to Cuba ending its 'embargo' on foreign radio and media, but, my hopes are not high.

Raul Castro has already started letting people own cell phones and shit like that. I don't see why you wouldn't expect him to go further with American economic support as an incentive.