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China, Japan join hands to fight crisis

ShiosaiShiosai Registered User, ClubPA regular
edited May 2009 in Debate and/or Discourse
Some optimistic news about China-Japan relations:

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2009-04/30/content_7732556.htm

I'll bullet-point it:

-Liu Jiangyong, an expert on Japan studies at Tsinghua University said the financial crisis is a turning point for both nations. "The era of Japan relying on European and US markets has ended, while China has surpassed Germany to become the world's third-largest economy and is likely to replace Japan to be the second largest next year."

-The China-Japan High-Level Economic Dialogue will be held on June 7 in Tokyo.

-Japan will open to individual Chinese tourists in July, while regular charter flights between Tokyo and Beijing will start in October.

-A telecom deal next month will largely help Japan's 3G mobile phones enter the Chinese market.

It's been a long time coming. I hope they can work their historic kinks out, and given the PRC's reputation for pragmatism, I would say it seems likely.

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Shiosai on

Posts

  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    I think Japan's crazy racism will be a nuisance, as always.

    Loren Michael on
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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited April 2009
    I think Japan's crazy racism will be a nuisance, as always.
    Well, it will probably be the mutual antagonism more than anything else.

    Fencingsax on
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  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Ehh... I think that particular relationship is kind of one-way dickery, though China is kind of a crybaby in general...

    Loren Michael on
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  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    I think it's excellent the countries are co-operating more.

    Also

    Chinese mobs smashed Japanese businesses a year or two ago.

    Nationalist dickheads are nationalist dickheads, regardless of nationality.

    Most normal Japanese and Chinese people have no problem with each other.

    poshniallo on
    I figure I could take a bear.
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Ah, that's fair. I forget about The Party stoking nationalism as a means to deflect criticism and encourage loyalty. I still think Japan's insufficient acknowledgment of history is the fundamental cause though. There would be a lot less to piss and moan about if Japanese nationalists weren't so active.

    The cooperation is a good thing though, and though the tensions will be a nuisance, they'll probably just be a sideshow to good things happening.

    Loren Michael on
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  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    And actually, if you trust anecdotes, most Chinese that I have met don't really care for the Japanese so much. With a few exceptions, most have a vague dislike, some a little moreso. Most of them drift close to apathy though, and everyone in my anecdotes are happy with Japanese stuff.

    Ad far as the nationalists in Japan go, I think they have comparable numbers to the Christian Right in America, only a little more powerful.

    Loren Michael on
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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Ah, that's fair. I forget about The Party stoking nationalism as a means to deflect criticism and encourage loyalty. I still think Japan's insufficient acknowledgment of history is the fundamental cause though. There would be a lot less to piss and moan about if Japanese nationalists weren't so active.

    The cooperation is a good thing though, and though the tensions will be a nuisance, they'll probably just be a sideshow to good things happening.
    Oh, I'm not denying that Japan's refusal to acknowledge past wrongdoings is a key point of contention. But It's not like the relationship would all be rainbows and unicorns even if that stuff had never happened.

    Fencingsax on
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  • The Black HunterThe Black Hunter Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Almost all those rioters were just bored, shitheaded male youths

    The Black Hunter on
  • psycojesterpsycojester Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Ehh... I think that particular relationship is kind of one-way dickery, though China is kind of a crybaby in general...

    Well Japan is the international equivalent of the Dick head neighbour who gets totally shit faced, smashes a whole bunch of your stuff, then passes out on your lawn and then refuses to admit anything happened the next day.

    This one is my favourite piece of Japan/China Douchbaggery

    psycojester on
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  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Almost all those rioters were just bored, shitheaded male youths

    Of which China has an ever increasing supply thanks to their insane "kill all the baby girls" policy.

    I exaggerate of course, but China is really running into a massive problem of gender imbalance producing a large body of unemployed, undereducated single men.

    tbloxham on
    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
  • JudasJudas Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    tbloxham wrote: »
    Almost all those rioters were just bored, shitheaded male youths

    Of which China has an ever increasing supply thanks to their insane "kill all the baby girls" policy.

    I exaggerate of course, but China is really running into a massive problem of gender imbalance producing a large body of unemployed, undereducated single men.

    32 million bored shithead male youths on the way. That...could be a serious goddamn problem. D:

    Judas on
    Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver.
    Situation excellent. I am attacking.

    - General Ferdinand Foch
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited April 2009
    tbloxham wrote: »
    Almost all those rioters were just bored, shitheaded male youths

    Of which China has an ever increasing supply thanks to their insane "kill all the baby girls" policy.

    I exaggerate of course, but China is really running into a massive problem of gender imbalance producing a large body of unemployed, undereducated single men.
    They'll figure out orgies and handjobs eventually.

    Fencingsax on
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  • DarkCrawlerDarkCrawler Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Japanese were as bad as Nazis during WWII.

    The difference between Germany and Japan is that one of those nations has acknowledged their horrific past...and one hasn't.

    DarkCrawler on
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    tbloxham wrote: »
    Almost all those rioters were just bored, shitheaded male youths

    Of which China has an ever increasing supply thanks to their insane "kill all the baby girls" policy.

    I don't think that's policy. That's bunches of individuals deciding to have male children building up into a societal problem.

    If memory serves, I think northern India is having a similar problem, actually...

    Loren Michael on
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  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    tbloxham wrote: »
    Almost all those rioters were just bored, shitheaded male youths

    Of which China has an ever increasing supply thanks to their insane "kill all the baby girls" policy.

    I don't think that's policy. That's bunches of individuals deciding to have male children building up into a societal problem.

    If memory serves, I think northern India is having a similar problem, actually...

    Oh, I didn't mean to imply that thats what the government policy really was. But by combining a sexist society with low levels of education what you end up with is far more of the baby girls being aborted as the father (and mother even) insists on having a son.

    tbloxham on
    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
  • SeptusSeptus Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Ehh... I think that particular relationship is kind of one-way dickery, though China is kind of a crybaby in general...

    Clearly, the rape of Nanking was justice served for overseas invaders to Japan in olden times.

    Septus on
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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Are you guys seriously trying to imply that China hasn't fucked over Japan historically? Not that that excuses or justifies anything, it only explains it. There's a history of animosity stemming from both sides. Should Japan acknowledge it's actions during WWII? Certainly. Were those atrocities atrocities? Yes.

    Does that mean that China and Japan shouldn't work together? Fuck no.

    Fencingsax on
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  • DarkCrawlerDarkCrawler Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Are you guys seriously trying to imply that China hasn't fucked over Japan historically?

    When has it done so last? From 1800's onwards, it has pretty much been Japan, with it's better technological prowess and military, been fucking over China almost unilaterally.

    DarkCrawler on
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Are you guys seriously trying to imply that China hasn't fucked over Japan historically?

    When has it done so last? From 1800's onwards, it has pretty much been Japan, with it's better technological prowess and military, been fucking over China almost unilaterally.
    Considering that Japan had basically sealed itself off until about 1866, and then was forced open by Commodore Perry, I would disagree somewhat with that statement.

    Although I will agree that Japan has very frequently been on the offending end of the spectrum.

    Edit:Examining the wiki on Sino-Japanese relations, it does look like Japan basically got scared shitless of getting invaded, and of what happened to China during the Opium Wars and basically went to war with China and Korea for awhile. I was conflating some events, but huh.

    At least the governments are being smart and not letting past action impede current diplomatic agendas too much.

    Fencingsax on
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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    So they're teaming up against Korea, right?

    DarkPrimus on
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    Gamertag: PrimusD | Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
  • DarkCrawlerDarkCrawler Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Hopefully the northern one...

    DarkCrawler on
  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    As someone living in Japan, I am just sick of people using World War 2 as a justification for dickery. There are a million things to learn from the evil of war, but this seems to be the favourite in the Far East.

    The Japanese government and military of the time did awful awful things. But we need to move on, and for Asian nations to have good relations. Frankly, most Japanese people know about the atrocities, and the government has apologised frequently. It's become a meme that 'Japan hasn't apologised enough' and any apology that has been made is examined minutely usually, stupidly, in translation for words that actually show what weasel the Japanese are. Japanese people are pervs with panty-vending-machines, they didn't apologise for the war, they are incapable of inventing things, they murdered that poor girl in Rising Sun. It doesn't matter how much evidence you present to the contrary, these things are what we know about Japanese people, and it's good to feel morally superior.

    A list of apologies which will now be ignored by people.

    Here's one example - bear in mind it's probably translated:
    29 September 1972. Prime Minister Kakuei Tanaka. "The Japanese side is keenly conscious of the responsibility for the serious damage that Japan caused in the past to the Chinese people through war, and deeply reproaches itself. Further, the Japanese side reaffirms its position that it intends to realize the normalization of relations between the two countries from the stand of fully understanding 'the three principles for the restoration of relations' put forward by the Government of the People's Republic of China. The Chinese side expresses its welcome for this" (Joint Communique of the Government of Japan and the Government of the People's Republic of China.[1]


    I am not sure whether they have 'apologised sufficiently'. I am not sure what that actually means. But in the end, so fucking what? These people here now aren't the people who did those things. How long should Americans apologise for slavery? For the Vietnam War? For nuclear bombing Japan twice? How long should the Chinese government apologise for the atrocities of the Long March, Cultural Revolution and so on?

    I don't know. I don't know how long a nation should apologise, and how much.

    I know that we must remember the past so that we don't repeat our mistakes.

    But I also know that we can't let past evil dominate our actions now. Otherwise we'll never be able to make peace.

    poshniallo on
    I figure I could take a bear.
  • DarkCrawlerDarkCrawler Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Apologies are one thing, I don't think anyone disputes them.

    The fact that there are constant controversies with Japanese history textbook revisions, and visits to the Yasukuni Shrine, and similar things, that bother people. Germany went full-on with acknowledging their atrocities, and Japan didn't.

    Not that it's the only country that does it. But it's a first world democracy, which in my opinion should mean that it needs to do it.

    And I'm actually bothered by the fact that Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombings aren't acknowledged more. I think they should be constituted as war crimes - they wiped two cities full of civilians off the map. If the bombs had been used on military targets, I'd feel differently, but what happened is not justifiable. Even if it saved the lives that would have died in the massive invasion that would have happened in conventional war.

    Slavery has been certainly acknowledged in U.S. enough, and continues to be. Vietnam War...I don't think it's really comparable to Japanese war crimes. Like, at all. People I know are constantly baffled when they find out what they did to people. They probably mass murdered as many people as Nazi Germany did. And then there was shit like Unit 731. I think the fact that this hasn't gained as much worldwide attention isn't the fault of Japan alone, though I'd say they share the biggest part of the blame in that.

    Mind you, this is not a justification to be dicks to Japan (because frankly, what do modern Japanese have to do with their grandfathers who most are already dead?), but anyone who tries to claim that China and Japan were somehow equally bad or something similar is full of shit.

    DarkCrawler on
  • CygnusZCygnusZ Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    I can't believe what a high standard you hold Japan to, while basically letting China off the hook. The Chinese don't even have freedom of speech. You don't think the current, modern Chinese government isn't guilty of human rights violations? Do you think the the Taiwan issue is somehow less poignant than some war atrocities commited over 60 years ago? How about its patently undemocratic form of government? You think that the Chinese public education system is actually acceptable?!

    Look, the Japanese government does stupid things. Removing the Battle of Okinawa from the junior high school textbooks was stupid. But as long as the Chinese government has a vested interest in creating populist rage towards the Japanese, there's no nothing the Japanese government or people can really do. All the incidents you're talking about are reported in the Japanese newspapers and on the nightly news. Does the Chinese government allow its dirty laundry aired on public airwaves?

    CygnusZ on
  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Please let's not make this a thread over which crappy government (a tautology, natch) was worse?

    I just want them to be friends, partly because being friends is nice (and economically productive) and partly because I live in one of them, and the other one is so fucking big and tough it might decide to flex and roll over us one day.

    poshniallo on
    I figure I could take a bear.
  • DarkCrawlerDarkCrawler Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    CygnusZ wrote: »
    I can't believe what a high standard you hold Japan to, while basically letting China off the hook. The Chinese don't even have freedom of speech. You don't think the current, modern Chinese government isn't guilty of human rights violations? Do you think the the Taiwan issue is somehow less poignant than some war atrocities commited over 60 years ago? How about its patently undemocratic form of government? You think that the Chinese public education system is actually acceptable?!

    Look, the Japanese government does stupid things. Removing the Battle of Okinawa from the junior high school textbooks was stupid. But as long as the Chinese government has a vested interest in creating populist rage towards the Japanese, there's no nothing the Japanese government or people can really do. All the incidents you're talking about are reported in the Japanese newspapers and on the nightly news. Does the Chinese government allow its dirty laundry aired on public airwaves?

    ...I think you have completely misunderstood my post. It was relating to the history of the two nations and Japan's attempts to cover them. China is defenitely the worse one now.

    DarkCrawler on
  • ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Hehehehe

    "We're going to work together with Japan in this time of economic crisis. Oh, and by the way Japan, we're going to surpass you in the next few years."

    Zombiemambo on
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  • CygnusZCygnusZ Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    poshniallo wrote:
    I am not sure whether they have 'apologised sufficiently'. I am not sure what that actually means. But in the end, so fucking what? These people here now aren't the people who did those things.

    I believe that they want an offical apology from the diet. Be it the nanking massacre or the comfort women problem, an offical apology would entitle China and Korea to reparations which is what I think they're really gunning for.
    poshniallo wrote: »
    Please let's not make this a thread over which crappy government (a tautology, natch) was worse?

    I just want them to be friends, partly because being friends is nice (and economically productive) and partly because I live in one of them, and the other one is so fucking big and tough it might decide to flex and roll over us one day.

    Agreed. Can't we just let N.Korea be the scapegoat for all our rage?

    CygnusZ on
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