Darth Vaders fight with Obi Wan [KICK ME!]
JDub
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In the Rigorous Scholarship podcast jerry and mike were talking about darth vader killing all jedi (around 19:00 in) Mike states that "obi wan looses" - im fairly certain referencing the I-III movies.
... did I miss something in those movies? I thought Obi Wan won the fight by getting the high ground at the last stop before the lavafall. Yes that was bullshit etc (wheres that comic where obi wan is saying "the high ground gives me +5 to dexterity or whatever) - but that argument aside what did jerry mean?
Watching the fight I got the impression Obi Wan had trepidations in fighting vader beyond the standard "hes my friend, the light side of the force wont let me kill him etc" arguments... it looked like he held his own pretty well though. I got the impression that I was supposed to get the impression as a viewer that they were evenly matched.
Maybe there is where reading all the books is helpful? Is there some standard to measure who was the more powerful? In the books maybe it was more clear who was going to win?
... did I miss something in those movies? I thought Obi Wan won the fight by getting the high ground at the last stop before the lavafall. Yes that was bullshit etc (wheres that comic where obi wan is saying "the high ground gives me +5 to dexterity or whatever) - but that argument aside what did jerry mean?
Watching the fight I got the impression Obi Wan had trepidations in fighting vader beyond the standard "hes my friend, the light side of the force wont let me kill him etc" arguments... it looked like he held his own pretty well though. I got the impression that I was supposed to get the impression as a viewer that they were evenly matched.
Maybe there is where reading all the books is helpful? Is there some standard to measure who was the more powerful? In the books maybe it was more clear who was going to win?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjCyZ2P9bCA
While I agree that Obi Wan seemed to be full of trepidations in fighting his once-padawan, I really felt that most of their fighting was him holding himself back a bit and trying to convince the young man that he had turned wrong in the taking to the Dark Side. He was holding back and doing just enough to stay ahead/frustrate Vader.
I think this also, going only on memory, adds more emphasis/importance to the encounter between the two in the later (original) series where Vader mentions the apprentice has now become the master? I think he says something like that, anyway... implying that he was not able to get the upper hand of his master previously, but has matured, developed, and exceeded his master's skills.
I'm sure if it was made today it'd be much flashier with force powers going everywhere and then Obi-Wan sacrificing himself for Luke's eventual benefit, just as in the version we have now.
You could technically argue Obi-Wan loses the episode 3 battle too, in a way. Since he never convinces Anakin to renounce the darkside and is forced to essentially dismember Anakin he never really wins. But that's all "winning the battle, losing the war" (...and then winning the war a few decades later, I guess).
Now, there's just the minor issue of Bob Anderson. "Bob Anderson was the man who actually did Vader’s fighting." Who's Bob Anderson? Just a fellow who happened to be an olympic fencer, in addition to being the sword master of such movies as Princess Bride, Lord of the Rings trilogy, Three Musketeers, Pirates of the Caribbean and a bunch of other movies, in addition to doing Vader's swordplay. I think the guy knows his shit, and one thing I've learned from fencing is that flashiness is all good, until you get to an actual match. Then it's pretty much an invitation of "Poke me in this exposed stomach of mine".
There's a place for flashy fighting in movies, of course. I think that the way they fight in the original trilogy is, while more subdued, more competent as far as fencing goes.
None of the OT lightsaber battles are nearly as interesting (in terms of swordplay) as any of the movies you mention, save maybe Lord of the Rings (which didn't really feature any duels that I can recall)
True. Realistic swordplay doesn't make for long and interesting duels. It's usually over in a couple of strikes, and they obviously shifted the focus towards flashier, more entertaining swordplay later on(considering that the OT is quite old). I simply got the impression from UltimateGecko's post that he thinks the newer trilogy somehow has swordfighting that's more "real". I may be mistaken, but in any case I was just trying to demonstrate to him that the OT swordfighting is more genuine, albeit less interesting for the larger audiences. There is of course the limitations of the technology and wardrobe to consider, as well as the fact that both actors in the OT clip posted here were quite old(Bob Anderson is pushing 90 by now, I think).
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Yeah if I have a lightsaber cutting through me my thoughts aren't going to be "Well I mean you didn't really win so there"
The Vader in Soul Calibur 4 is the masked/helmetted Vader, not the Hayden-Vader. I don't think they discussed Hayden-Vader at all, it was always classic Vader. They were pretty clearly talking about the Episode 4 fight.
Not to derail the thread or anything, but I feel this way about the trilogies as a whole as well. The original trilogy is much less flashy due to technical restrictions, but ends up having the tenser space battles, the more interesting shootouts, etc.
That was definitely the best fight of the new triology and I did definitely enjoy it.
But my favourite part about the Darthmaul fight is when Obi could have killed maul, but instead does a little flashy twirl before he strikes and get a boot in the stomach off the ledge for being a git.
Say what you like, Obi wan's swordplay had great character progression that is evident all through the films in various stages. And he died as he lived: a show off.
Wow, it's actually pretty good. There is some pretty deft swordplay going on there. I think if there's anything bad about the fight scene is that some of the camera angles could have been better. But there are a lot of deft subtle maneuvers and thrusts, very similar to fencing, which isn't surprising given the actor who did vader's fighting.
Episode VI: Vader beats Obi-wan by forfeit (1-0)
Episode V: Vader beats Luke, in Luke's first fight (2-0)
Episode VI: Luke beats Vader, in Luke's second fight (2-1)
Episode II: Dooku beats Anakin (2-2)
Episode III: Anakin beats Dooku (3-2)
Episode III: Obi-wan beats Anakin (3-3)
Yeah, but that's excluding all the off-screen stuff where he kills the Jedi Academy, plus when he loses to Luke in VI he's sort of already given up.
Granted, the Darth Maul vs. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon fight was very entertaining, but I'd still rate the OT fights more interesting technique-wise.
I assumed they were talking in the new trilogy context, when vader *should* have been in his prime (unless force powers grow significantly with age), along with obi wan. I know there are going to be old farts that disagree calling in age and expirience etc, but the time in your life when you have the greatest potential is before 25 or so. Universally EVERYTHING drops off after that, reflexes, speed in your muscles, endurance, mental capacity (though i think thats around 30) etc. Sure alot of world class athletes do better when they're older, but I attribute that to refining an already superior talent that they *could* have done more with when younger. Please dot let the discussion take off on this topic, it wont come back to whats important - vader vs obi in their relative primes.
Can anyone whos read all the books weigh in on when exactly vader became the best fighter? (or at least when he reaching his peak?) I too got the impression from the movies that he was more of a pawn and not the most talented at that. I find that really sad because I was hoping he'd be some incredibly gifted bad ass that for a time could have taken on the jedi council (one at a time at least). The movies gave me the impression he might have been able to take on half of them, but that yoda, windu (god what a shitty actor choice) and even obi would trash him any day of the week.
Hey anyone who knows is there an explanation about vaders eyes being red in the fight with obi? yeah they were in a lava world but I think they wanted you to see an evil red glint. Does slaughtering younglings give you dark force powers? How exactly does one progress in the force anyways? JUST training and practice? Or does killing someone really powerful help you "level up"? Was vader supposedly drawing on the dark side to fight obi wan? Could it be argued that he lost because he didnt have enough familiarity with the rage they draw on?
I dont really consider the episode III fight a loss anyways because it was just so poorly laid out. From the looks of it vader could have force jumped to a not so scalding part of the ground in front of obi wan. Or possibly controlled the droid and made it go back or to the other side (though I guess the droid was damaged). I think there were plenty of star wars appropriate escapes from the position he was in. Saying he just raged and tried something impossible is... again, lame. Also why did obi wan cut his legs off? Did he think that if the fight went on he would lose? He didnt know the emperor was coming, though I guess he might have been thinking he needed to go into hiding asap.
I get the impression most of my questions dont have direct answers, but I'd appreciate any attempts.
If people get even the slightest bit GRARRR FANBOY RAGE in here I'm locking this down and throwing cards.
I haven't read any books, but I have read Wookiepedia. Anakin is supposed to be the most powerful force user ever. When we becomes Vader, he is a lot weaker in the force because artificial prosthetics screw up your ability to use the force.
The explanation for why this is so poorly conveyed in the movies is that Lucas is a bad writer.
Alternate RPG explanation: Cybernetics gives you a penalty to your Use the Force check.
His eyes turned yellow when he became evil. Because being evil apparently does that.
ARPGE: Killing younglings gives you darkside points, and if you have more darkside points than your wisdom score, you become a darkside character.
OT, it is clearly a matter of spiritual insight and training. PT, you just need to have more medichlorians than the other guy.
ARPGE: Anakin got a shit ton of XP for killing Dooku. I doubt he got any for the younglings, since they are probably too low CR compared to his ECL. He might have gotten roleplaying XP though. And probably a bunch from Windu.
Yes.
ARPGE: He was probably using Dark Side Rage all over the place in that fight.
That or just him being an overconfident dick.
ARPGE: When he tried to jump next to Obi-Wan, he provoked an Attack of Opportunity, and Obi Wan either rolled a crit or spent a Destiny Point to auto-crit and did enough damage to put Anakin at like -1 HP and/or knocked him way down the Condition Track.
Seriously. That was a very amusing read HamHam.
On the last example up there; Obi Wan either used his Severing Strike talent or the alternate maiming rules. In either case that means he would have dropped Anakin to 0 hp AND exceeded his damage threshold (killing him) but chose to cut off a limb instead. The fact that he took 3 limbs means that he probably did a ton of damage with the attack.
Anakin also probably spent a Force Point to not die, which is how he managed not to boil after getting all hacked up.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Wouldn't his high Force Affinity stat allow him to channel his powers to prolong his life with pure seething hatred?
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Well yeah when you're dealing with the former leaders of what is basically a religious sect they are gonna embellish a bit on their accomplishments.
HamHam if what you say about cybernetics hurting you is true then did vader never achieved his full potential? Or was his full potential just not enough to beat obi wan? If he was the most powerful user ever how is it manifest? He doesnt seem to have a stronger force push/ ability to move things bigger than other force users such as yoda in the dooku fights. He doesnt seem to have powers comparable to yoda (force lightning, absorbing lightning, seeing the future etc) ... short of martial ability what else could there be? As I said before loads of jedi seemed on par or better than him in martial ability.
Kagera you gave me an idea, since the movies make it pretty clear that jedi dont need to be concerned with ships, armies or just about anything but battle droids why didnt obi wan later come back to kill the emperor or vader?
I noticed that in the movies too that the jedi really do seem to be only interested in fighting things that fight them, they dont seem to do much other than maintain their power as the senates secret police. Frankly I dont blame the bad guys for wanting more money/power/influence, they at least might do something cool with it like build fleets of star destroyers.
I loved that fight, but after a few times, you watch it, and while I don't pretend to have any real knowledge of fencing, but seeing Obi Wan doing all these goofy slow spin moves against Darth Maul in the beginning, when he should be fucking Darth Maul's shit up as he conveniently waits till after Qui Gonn gets run through to fight with more speed.
I still maintain that Lucas was a complete retard to axe Maul in favor of Tyrannus. Ep. 3 with Anakin having a high speed duel with Darth Maul instead would have been glorious!
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This.
Obi Wan knew that Anakin Skywalker was the chosen one and would bring balance to the force.
Not Luke "Power Converters" Skywalker.
I was just abreviating Alternative RPG Explanation, so as not have to type it like five times. Things just make more sense if you think of the Star Wars Prequels as a PnP RPG. See: Darths & Droids Characters doing illogical things for no reason? Par for the course in your typical D&D game. Things are resolved by Deus Ex Machina? That's what the DM is for. The setting breaks all laws of physics? Well, the DM doesn't know any better.
Also, both the old d20 Star Wars system and the new Saga sytem include all kinds of wierd shit who's only purpose is to explain certain events in the movies. For example, SAGA has Force Talent that you can get from the Jedi Master class who's effect is that by spending a round meditating, your next attack becomes better. This, a far as I can tell, is there only because of the one scene in EP I where Qui-Gon meditates when those force fields split them up.
The former, I believe. According to the EU, Palpatine was always looking for someone to replace Vader with, because Vader was damaged goods and not able to become the ultimate Sith like Palpatine had originally planned.
Lucas is a bad writer.
One problem with the movies at times is sometimes they don't seem to hit home the fact that Dooku, Yoda, Windu, and Obi-Wan are all really powerful. As in, they are in the best of the best, and have experience over Anakin. Anakin's biggest problem was he was cocky and overconfident. People such as Windu, Yoda, and Obi-Wan are calmer and able to out-think their opponents.
When Anakin takes on lesser Jedi, a la the Jedi Temple, they get butchered.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
He is a Jedi master.