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[Let's Read MORE] Monster Manual II (1983)

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  • AriviaArivia I Like A Challenge Earth-1Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    You missed the Tauric.

    Edit: I also love the fact that Savage Species, which really opened this can of worms, also included rituals to change race/add templates. It's kind of a sanity check: yeah, there's no other way that's really ever mating.

    Edit2: THAT'S WHAT 3E WAS! The developers were just trying to raise a monster they could ride to get Knights of the Round.

    Arivia on
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  • HorseshoeHorseshoe Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    clearly it is an elf manticore...ataur. (i think)

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  • Super NamicchiSuper Namicchi Orange County, CARegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    pete come on now, you're going about it wrong

    you don't become a Legend by being spawned of a Legend

    known throughout the land for its various exploits was how it became Legendary

    Super Namicchi on
  • HorseshoeHorseshoe Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    man if your head had pointy ears

    and was sittin' on the body of a manticore

    i think people would have heard of you

    Horseshoe on
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  • AriviaArivia I Like A Challenge Earth-1Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    pete come on now, you're going about it wrong

    you don't become a Legend by being spawned of a Legend

    known throughout the land for its various exploits was how it became Legendary

    he's right

    also, in the process of researching this, I came across something worse: the type pyramid.

    In case you screwed up so badly you can't figure out if it's supposed to be an insect or a devil, this tells you which magical in-game classification applies. Apparently you can't have robots from other worlds.

    Edit:
    Horseshoe wrote: »
    man if your head had pointy ears

    and was sittin' on the body of a manticore

    i think people would have heard of you

    "shit, come see dumbo, with an ECL so bad he can't wipe his own ass."

    Arivia on
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  • SUPERSUGASUPERSUGA Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    3e is much funnier now that it's not the current edition. It's like how we can all laugh at atrocities throughout history now.

    I like how this is one of the few forums where I can say that and not get pounced on.
    Don't pounce on me please.

    SUPERSUGA on
  • descdesc Goretexing to death Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    I know this is a few pages late, but I just wanted to say: Tadhemoth.

    Yessssssss.

    desc on
  • HorseshoeHorseshoe Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    i can't believe that they failed at froghemoth ecology

    they didn't stat out the Egghemoth!

    how am i to have my adventurers tackle their poisonous, gelatinous embryos of doom?

    my immersions

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  • UtsanomikoUtsanomiko Bros before Does Rollin' in the thlayRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Froghemoths

    Feeding off a diet of flies (giant)

    all sitting on dire lillypads.

    Utsanomiko on
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  • AriviaArivia I Like A Challenge Earth-1Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    on the topic of 3e: I love how 3.0's scaling mechanisms for animal companions (or the lack thereof) meant we needed wolves, dire wolves, legendary wolves, and epic wolves. Just so Vadania could be foxy 'till the 30s.

    Arivia on
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  • HorseshoeHorseshoe Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    next up is the Korred! hopefully tonight!

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  • HorseshoeHorseshoe Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Another staple of D&D is to make monsters of very obscure mythical creatures after you've already taken all of the obvious ones. They're not always as tough or impressive... which is probably why you hadn't heard of them before. Hey, there's one on page 78!
    K is for Korred.

    Today's Korred is found in the 4th edition Manual of the Planes. I guess all of you who still have priapisms over Planescape (or who weren't so attached to Planescape and are instead overly enamored with the Great Wheel) and can't reconcile this with the current cosmology can... I don't know. Do whatever it is you people do.
    korrednow.jpg
    This should be the mascot for Humboldt State University

    According to ye manual, Korreds are nasty little things who consider mortals to be entertainment for their dark sense of humor and practical joking. The Korred on page 136 of the Manual of the Planes comes in two varieties. A Cudgeleer (soldier 8) and a Dancecaller (controller 10, leader). Yes, really. Anyway:
    • Hit stuff with their cudgels. They love cudgels. Soldiers can mark, controllers can slide (!).
    • Dancing! Korred dancing makes for quite an attack. Both korreds have a dance that fits their role.
    • They have plenty of options for shifting, which can be quite frustrating for your melee folks.
    • A dancecaller with a group of cudgeleers and another fey skirmisher or two to control could make for a pretty nasty encounter in the high heroic levels.
    I think the idea of the Korred has been kept quite intact through the years. The mythical creature would apparently lure humans into their dances... and usually this didn't work out too well for the humans, who would dance themselves to death before the little pranksters disappeared at dawn. Apparently they also liked haulting rocks around and made stone circles.
    korredthen.jpg
    SAVE VS. SPELLS OR DANCE YOURSELVES!

    Man, that haircut never goes out of style. Korreds circa 1983:
    • They ALWAYS carry cudgels and large pouches containing hair, shears, and other items. Hair?
    • Cudgeling also never goes out of style. Bonk bonk. However, they're also incredibly strong for their size and can throw some heavy-ass boulders at you. Also they may attack with their SHEARS!
    • Can turn their hair into animated ropes and entagle you in them... save vs. paralysis or you're trapped by them. Okay.
    • Can cast a lot of druidy/clericy type earth and rock oriented spells at will. Oh, and teleport!
    • May laugh 3 times a day. Apparently this laugh is really overpowering... if you are within 6 feet of them and don't roll your charisma or higher on a 1d20 you'll be stunned for 1-4 rounds. This... is an odd mechanic.
    • And now is time for dancing! "Each week the korredds have a holiday when they dance and play music. Those who interrupt the dance must save vs. spells or dance themselves, losing 1-4 ht points per round until they are dead, restrained, or the korreds flee." Festive! Man that would be the worst TPK ever.
    Ye olde Korred is even more frustrating than the new ones. And at 6 hit dice, it'd be frustrating you at a bit lower levels than the current iteration. I like it. Unless I had to fight a group of them. In that case, I would hate it.

    But why the fuck do they have pouches full of shears and hair? I can only assume that they like to prank you by cutting all your hair off in your sleep. Which is awesome.

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  • SUPERSUGASUPERSUGA Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Save vs Paralysis, Save vs Dragon Breath and all those other old saves were so stupid. I'm surprised it took so long to move to Fortitude, Reflex and Will.

    The Korred continues the pattern of having some really cool fluff and a few nice special abilities, but still being trapped in that horrible 1st ed statblock.

    What's next, shoe?

    SUPERSUGA on
  • HorseshoeHorseshoe Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    lycanthrope (wereshark)

    Horseshoe on
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  • SUPERSUGASUPERSUGA Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Good choice.

    SUPERSUGA on
  • INeedNoSaltINeedNoSalt with blood on my teeth Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
  • AriviaArivia I Like A Challenge Earth-1Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    SUPERSUGA wrote: »
    but still being trapped in that horrible 1st ed statblock.

    % in lair is the worst stat ever.

    % with french curls would be more useful.

    Arivia on
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  • HorseshoeHorseshoe Registered User regular
    edited July 2009

    that is the greatest image of a hybrid form wereshark i have ever seen

    do they sell those as minis?

    it makes me want to convince a DM that I am playing a sharkataur (same stats as minotaur of course)

    or a sharkforged

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  • INeedNoSaltINeedNoSalt with blood on my teeth Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    INeedNoSalt on
  • SUPERSUGASUPERSUGA Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    What's % in lair? Percentage change that the monster will be in its lair?

    SUPERSUGA on
  • AriviaArivia I Like A Challenge Earth-1Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Yes; you had a 1% chance of finding a korred with treasure, assuming the actual treasure tables didn't screw you over first.

    Arivia on
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  • SUPERSUGASUPERSUGA Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    I guess it could be useful if you wanted to sneak into a monster's lair to steal its stuff without that pesky kiling. Not sure it would apply to all monsters, though.

    SUPERSUGA on
  • AriviaArivia I Like A Challenge Earth-1Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    If you could find a lair on the random dungeon tables.

    Arivia on
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  • HorseshoeHorseshoe Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    alright wereshark coming up in a few minutes

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  • HorseshoeHorseshoe Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Well gang... chapter "L" is another sad case of poor monster design. It's too easy to do this in the case of Lycanthropes. Were-wolves quickly inspired were-rats, were-bears, were-boars, fucking were-tigers... and then, on page 80 of Monster Manual II... the Foxwoman. Yep. Lady Elf form and Hybrid Elf-Fox Form. That is goddamned awful.

    Could one possibly push this monster category any further? We find horrible proof of this on page 82.
    L is for Lycanthrope... Wereshark?

    Apparently our lycanthropic friends were missing entries in aquatic dungeon tables. On the previous page there was the "Seawolf". Which is a lycanthrope that essentially has two hybrid forms... one is part wolf and part seal, the other form part wolf and part man. Wait... two hybrid forms but no human or animal form? How is that even a Lycanthrope? It's not even a were-anything. No, no. We need us a goddamn Wereshark. Man, that would be so sweet. The idea of a Wereshark is awesome. It conjures up images such as this one:
    wereshark19.jpg

    That's the promise of a wereshark there. This awesome beast looks ready to kick sand in your eyes, steal your girl, and then probably chomp both of you down. Such a beast would even be a worth opponent to a Dinosaur Warlock. However, in Monster Manual II we find...
    lycanthrope.jpg
    a wereshark apparently looks like a regular shark, but poorly-drawn


    I'm disappointed based upon the illustration alone. Reading on we find that...
    • Pretty damn good hit dice and standard lycanthrope defenses... you can't even scratch 'em without silver or magic. Nothing too special about their attacks though, they just bite the shit out of you for 5-20. Which could be either 5d4 or 3d6+2.
    • Humans affected with wereshark lycanthropy (man how the fuck would you contract that?) can transform into their shark-self at will. But only in the dark. Perhaps this is kind of an easy monster to deal with... you can just shine some light on him and watch him drown?
    • A wereshark's human form is virtually indistiguishable from a normal human, except for being "large, cruel, muscular and domineering". So... basically they're massive jocks. "Popped Collars" may have been left off the list.
    • Solitary, and often they prey on other sharks. However, when you find their lair there are always 2-5 sharks there. Apparently weresharks exhibit either complicated relationships, or poor editing, or both.
    • They actually have treasure, though! They have a human form, and they like to spend money when they assume it, I suppose. To like... buy polo shirts and flip-flops maybe. The treasure may even perhaps be a considerable trove, such as a Type F (!)
    Well, wereshark... you're still a disappointment. But at least you have some cool stuff we can take after we kill you.

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  • descdesc Goretexing to death Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Froghemoth vs. Wereshark.

    ONLY ONE CAN RULE THE WATER.

    desc on
  • SUPERSUGASUPERSUGA Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    That is some seriously terrible monster design. I never understood why damage was described in ways like 5-20 rather than 3d6+2. I'm willing to be there are some jerks who think this is a benefit as it forces players to do a little maths in their head. And then their stupid relationship with sharks. I think that's down to laziness from a writer struggling to think what other creatures would be found nearby.

    SUPERSUGA on
  • DelmainDelmain Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    desc wrote: »
    Froghemoth vs. Wereshark.
    THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE

    Delmain on
  • AriviaArivia I Like A Challenge Earth-1Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Delmain wrote: »
    desc wrote: »
    Froghemoth vs. Wereshark.
    THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE

    I'm voting for the Ralph Nader option: ixixachitl. What, you say? Vampiric manta-rays, I say.

    Arivia on
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  • HorseshoeHorseshoe Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    next up shall be

    MYCONID

    and myconids are actually pretty cool

    but... are the 4th edition myconids cooler?

    we shall see

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  • AriviaArivia I Like A Challenge Earth-1Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Horseshoe wrote: »
    and myconids are actually pretty cute

    fixed

    Arivia on
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  • HorseshoeHorseshoe Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    there really need to be more super-cute monsters in D&D

    to make it more of a conundrum for players

    show them the picture

    "LOOK AT IT! LOOK AT IT! IS THIS THE FACE OF A MONSTER?"

    because seriously

    who the hell could raise their sword against the pound puppies?


    no john

    you are the monsters

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  • AriviaArivia I Like A Challenge Earth-1Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    The issue is that when TSR tried that, we got elven dogs and elven cats and kender and gully dwarves and tinker gnomes.

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  • HorseshoeHorseshoe Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    argh

    i think elven cats and/or dogs are in MMII

    also anything dragonlance ever was awful

    all of it

    i will throw any baby out with the bathwater just to be rid of kender and all of their bullshit

    bullshit that i had to endure in the small-sized PC's that followed from them

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  • INeedNoSaltINeedNoSalt with blood on my teeth Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    I approve of kender and gully dwarves and tinker gnomes, all of them.

    INeedNoSalt on
  • HorseshoeHorseshoe Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    then you are a horrible and terrible person

    beyond redemption

    forever

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  • SUPERSUGASUPERSUGA Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    One of the few things I actually like about the Pathfinder RPG is the art. Wayne Reynolds' new goblins are awesome at sitting on the border between adorable and terrifying.

    goblins.jpg

    I don't think I've seen cute monsters done well elsewhere.

    SUPERSUGA on
  • ravensmuseravensmuse Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Aw, but I like Tinker Gnomes.

    Should have been put exclusively in Spelljammer (where they make more sense) but I still liked them!

    ravensmuse on
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  • DelmainDelmain Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Hey, weren't kender pretty much just halflings with cooler flavor?

    Delmain on
  • SUPERSUGASUPERSUGA Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    I haven't played them myself but I think the problem people had with them was that part of their fluff was not believing in or understanding property. As such they would all be compulsive thieves, as a racial trait, and I think they'd even take things without realising they were doing it. As you'd imagine some players took this concept and made incredibly annoying PCs out of it.

    SUPERSUGA on
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