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12 years of North Korean labor camp for American journalists
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QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
Yeah, it's questionable whether they actually stepped across the border. That said, it's not the place where you want to be dancing around the border, and they probably knew the risks involved.
You see, you've gotten your priorities mixed up. Insofar as US foreign policy is concerned, your focus should be the benefit of the United States, not subordinating North Korea. The US has no real interest in North Korea besides preserving stability: it's not like North Korea can fling nukes as far as Hawaii. Aid is cheap. Why spend more pushing the matter?
It's flatly not in the interest of the US to allow the regime to collapse violently, since doing so will destabilise relations with present US allies (Japan, ROK) and possibly antagonise the PRC. Neither is it in the interest of the US to launch an invasion or even rattle sabres, no matter how "bad" the DPRK is. Invasions are expensive; a bare minimum of aid allowing the DPRK to limp on is much cheaper.
Except her question is more "Why do we even care what happens to people who go to other countries and break those countries laws?".
because americans are living god creatures whose lives are worth more than those of an entire nation of puny foreigners.
Or, conversely, how the South responds if we come with some provocation to launch a direct military offensive into North Korea, with the intention of occupying it. What with it soon to be returned to the "axis of evil", and the fact many of our leaders, let's face it, love occupying other countries.
That's right. A war of choice, with North Korea as the defender. It's not terribly likely, but other less likely scenarios have already been brought up.
I do wonder how one or the other would respond. I'm reminded of the Suez Canal Crisis, with either us or South Korea as Britain, France, and Israel, and the rest of the world as the USSR and the USA of the time.
That would be embarrassing. Hopefully one more thing to make an unlikely scenario even less so.
That's likely true. Though, obviously, the same cannot be said about the rest of the regional powers (Japan included--yes, they do exercise a degree of autonomy nowadays).
So it would probably shape up into ourselves and Korea as Britain/France/Israel.
So your saying if they were on the other side of the border, you wouldn't give a shit about them?
Because the punishment in said country (possible/likely death in forced labor/starvation camp) doesn't exactly fit the crime, and they're our citizens?
What do we do with people who try to sneak into our country?
And what do you do when said country says "Hey, you can't do that to our people!!!" ?
I think you're missing the fact that these two people could be robo-darwin and zombie einstein and they still wouldn't be worth starting a dang war over.
Exactly.
I can buy the argument it isn't worth starting a war over two people, but the strong implication that they don't deserve some level of help below a full scale war or were asking for it is pretty disgusting.
You know that the punishment for illegal entry in the United States is sending them back to the country of origin right? It makes the response fairly nonsensical.
I'd have a lot more respect for North Korea's sovereignty if their government wasn't completely illegitimate. When a country has neither right nor might on its side, neither appeals to moral equivalency nor practical consequences seems particularly relevant. I don't think anyone is advocating the completely disproportionate response of invading over two Americans but that also doesn't mean we shouldn't do anything.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
When Joe Arpaio rounds up illegal immigrants and puts them into forced labor on chain gangs, we (hopefully) call him out as the piece of shit he is and work to get him thrown out of office, rather than than sip lattes and say "Them Mexkins shoulda thought about that before dey tuk er jebs!"
Also, Doctors Without Borders has people illegally crossing the Thai border into Burma all the time.
1) AFAIK we DON'T stop Sheriff Joe from doing his thing. He's still in power last I checked.
2) If he were to be stopped, wouldn't it be the US stopping him, and not the Mexicans?
Also I don't really see how someone is a dick when they are pissed at North Korea and bring up the option of nuking them, especially when we don't know all of the facts on the matter at hand. It usually just makes the dick caller look like the dick.
I really need to read up on this some more, where is all of this stuff about this supposively being a 'bargaining chip' coming from?
EDIT : Dammit, top of the paged. Time to be most hated on D&D for another thread.
Do I think a war should be started to get the women back? No, and I don't recall anyone in this thread seriously stating as such. There were statements that wouldn't it be cool if a fictional bad ass did fictional bad ass things like in his game that would get them back and leave the guilty bad guys satisfactorily dead. Those were not serious suggestions of a course of action.
Tangents also went off about just how a war with NK should/could be conducted, but again those weren't specifically meant to be a reaction to this specific instance.
It makes the person a dick because they either have no understanding of the ramifications and cost of such an action, or they do and couldn't give a shit. It's easy to sit half a world away and say, "Let's nuke 'em, that will sort 'em out!" but such a statement doesn't take into account the disproportionate human cost that would entail. The inevitable justification that, "It's not my people who will die," only makes it worse and shows a distinct lack of understanding and empathy.
For the North Korea situation in particular, it's also totally and ridiculously out of proportion to be even thinking along the interventionist lines. The only country which is significantly threatened by the North is South Korea, and only if some nation goes off half cocked and tries to start shit. So this idea that some Westerner sitting at home on their couch is justified in getting all riled up and pissed off about the situation with regards to the North is just ridiculous, and amounts to nothing more than an attempt to justify being a shit head and using their countries big bad nukes.
So yeah, people advocating that position are generally and with few exceptions, dicks.
The primary reason I'm keeping my powder dry is because Lisa is keeping hers dry. It's her sister at stake here; I defer to her. And she has been an absolute saint through this whole thing. If something were to happen to Laura and Euna and we end up not getting them back (I'm confident we will, but if we don't), I'm basically of the position that Lisa- and the rest of the Lings and Lees- get to call for damn near any action they want. They've earned it and they're not going to abuse the privilege.
See, it's not just Laura and Euna. It's Laura and Euna plus the missile tests plus the nuclear test plus the backing out of the armistice that's been in place for over half a century plus the general increase in rhetoric. You take any one of them by itself, no, not worth it. You take them all as a group within a very short timespan of each other, now you start to be able to make the case if you really had to.
Whichever side of the border they were on is largely irrelivant at this time. They might have been over, they might have not. Both sides are going to say that which benefits them the most. Both sides will produce evidence, witnesses, and then do everything they can to discredit the other side.
The fact remains they did something stupid, and now they are paying the consequences of that. It is sad that in negotiating their release we encourge more of this behavior.
I even found two handy links for people thinking "hey lets visit North Korea to expose just how bad the women suffer in this crazy shithole"
http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/Advice/North_Korea
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_988.html
The more you know, the less you get kidnapped, tried, sentenced to hard labor, have your life bargained over like a cheap whore, orders signed in triplicate, sent in, sent back, queried, lost, found, subjected to public inquery, lost again, and finally buried in soft beat and recylced as firelighters.
If you meant me, you should note I said that I would want that to happen if they make the first stupid move. And by that I obviously meant testing any nukes on non-NK soil. You just can't do shit like that and get away scot free, or with a couple trade bans.
If they get aggressive, they need to be stopped. If only because if they aren't stopped, the world will have to keep an ever-watchful eye on them to make sure they don't deploy nukes out of the blue. I don't like having a chip on my shoulder, do you? Or rather, do you have a better solution, if they do start handing out nuclear blasts like a pedo hands out candy from his unmarked white van?
Addendum: I don't necessarily mean plain out nuking them. Honestly, I would much, much rather see NK converted to a democracy. I feel extremely bad for the shit regular people in NK have to go through every day. But I don't see how it would be possible to overthrow the NK government without the use of force.
Do you see what I am saying here
I'm not sure that you do
139 journalists and 51 media support workers have been killed in Iraq since March 2003. Of the 139, 50 were killed as a result of crossfire or other acts of war. 89 were murdered as acts of reprisal.
What a bunch of fucking morons, huh? Man seriously they shoulda known better. Being a journalist in the middle of a goddamn war who thinks that's a good idea? Seriously if their egos really demand they get their name in print or face on TV they should chase down movie stars like all the other intelligent journalists.
Give me a break.
In countries where freedom of the press is not guaranteed then the only option is to do it illegally. It is a risk, journalists know the risk, but sometimes the roll of film hidden in a toilet tank while soldiers ransack the room or negatives smuggled across Beijing in some hippie's underwear can absolutely change the world.
Journalists would be stupid if they did not understand the level of risk. There is no evidence here that that is the case. They would be stupid if they flaunted themselves. Again, no evidence. We don't even know what side of the border they were on. They took the risk and the trap snapped up on them. Shit happens, life sucks, that doesn't make them idiots.
I know it's cool for people all along the political spectrum to shit on journalism and to downplay its role in free societies but complaining that using diplomatic means to secure their release is "encourge more of this behavior" makes me think you're equating this to some Jackass style extreme sport. "Don't stand up for the principles that insure a free society! You might encourge 'em ta keep doin' it!"
By all means, we should cheer for journalists who dare to go into such situations. However, if they do get into trouble, it's quite another to expect governments to expend anything more than diplomatic requests getting them back out into civilization.
I think we're conflating two situations and two kinds of trouble here. Most countries are amenable to quiet diplomatic nudging over foreigners getting arrested under local laws. But North Korea is not such a country; it's not going to take anything less than two North Korean prisoners or a retraction of sanctions or something major to get them back. And this should really be obvious.
It is this diplomatic flexibility that is the key factor, not what they do there, I daresay: it is common for Australia to have to keep poking assorted ASEAN members over Aussies arrested for drug possession, for example. Regardless of whether this encourages further violations, this diplomatic negotiation is done because it works - sentences are generally commuted or the individual involved deported (at least in the absence of a media circus, in which case defending national sovereignty comes into play). But North Korea is not like this; regardless of whether you were there to sightsee, to report, or to sabotage, it's just going to grab you and use you as a bargaining chip as long as it can.
Sounds like a dangerous job.
I didn't say they were morons, I said they did something stupid. Being in the middle of war zone when you do not have to be, when people are perfectly willing to kill you, to me is rather stupid. They have decided, whether they understood the risks or not to go into an area hostile to them for whatever purpose. Some have said the difference between bravery and stupidity is whether you make it out or not.
Changing the world is a wonderful goal, no guarantees it is for the better. However if you are doing something illegal then why the hell should anyone care when you get caught. Why do you feel journalists should deserve some special protection when they decide to do their job in areas outright hostile to them.
Lets get this straight, two journalists went into an area that was hostile to them. They were caught by North Korea, and now they were tried and convicted of breaking the law. We may not like the law. We may not like the country. The country itself may be a stinking shit hole under the oppressive thumb of a madman. However NOW we are faced with the problem of we have to apparently do something about this. The United States government now has to spend time, energy, money, political capitol, control the media circus, and negotiate with North Korea to get these people back because they felt that going where they did was somehow a good idea. They fucked up. Are they going to pay for it? God no, they are Americans. The White House will eventually get them home, to a media shitstorm, ensuring they get their 15 minutes of fame, book deals, and whatever else.
They knew a trap was a possibility, we have no idea what side of the border they were on. Apparently they did not understand the level of risk because now there is this huge "lets save them from themselves" movement. They ran the risk of being arrested, possible killed, possibly tried and convicted and never heard from again. However more likely they expected what they are getting, a media circus, and the US government to swoop in and save their asses.
North Korea is not a free society. That is the problem here. China, also not a free society. Why are they strolling through these societies and expecting America's rules to apply there. When in rome, do as the romans. When in North Korea, try not to get yourself shot. The very fact that the US government is showing it will take step to rescue people who engage in risky behavior encourges more people to go. It demonstrates to them that if they fuck up and get caught that as opposed to a lifetime of hard labor, shitty meals, and eventual death they are facing a couple months in prison, a sham trial, and then the US government gets them out to come home to a media circus, their named plastered everywhere, and be treated like heroes.
You want to stand up for the principles of a free society, that is great in a free society. Other places you just might die for it. People died for it here, why would it be any different anywhere else?
I think my stand is fairly close to how the US government is actually going to react; it's not going to do very much else besides such diplomatic statements.
Lets not forget that we still don't know whether or not these journalists were on the right side of the border or not. Given North Korea's past (and PRESENT) actions, I simply can't see how we can rule out the fact that they may have snatched these people as bargaining tools.
Weaboo List
My problem is that for the next X months we get to listen to "How will Obama handle this crisis?" "Will there be war?" "Is the Democrats inability to secure the return of hero journalists a sign of weakness?" "Lose Weight before summer ends, and learn to better please your man, secrets learned in a North Korea Prison."
My biggest bitch is not that the US government is going to do something, by all means it should at least try to help Americans who do stupid shit in other countries. My biggest bitch is that the White House is now forced to help these people beyond reasonable levels, because they are JOURNALISTS in need of PROTECTION. Journalists in hostile areas should not expect the US government to bail them out if something goes wrong. If it happens, woohoo.
Two people did something stupid, as opposed to a quiet relay of messages between us and North Korea its now a full blown international incident. It sends the message to other people that if they get caught fucking with North Korea the US will help you. It gives North Korea another bargaining chip, because frankly the more the media plays the story, the more value in getting these two home. If it was a quiet blurb on the 11 o clock news, and then died, the White House could effectively say "Well we would like them back, but we are not going to offer you much more than a couple twinkies and half a season of House."
They're not above sending agents overseas to kidnap South Koreans or Japanese citizens as bargaining tools, and we already know that. This goes well above and beyond snatching people on the border.
Nonetheless, we can 'rule it out' because justice or fairness doesn't enter, anywhere: the only relevant factor as far as the DPRK is concerned is minimizing the damage they can do in the long term (keeping in mind the costs of such minimization). Whether or not the DPRK was justified or whatever is irrelevant because we know the DPRK doesn't care, and we're here primarily concerned with controlling what the DPRK does decide to do (and thence its impact).
Their location is irrelevant. Be it on the Chinease side, in areas where North Korean forces make sweeps for fleeing refugees, or if they were in fact attempting to cross the border. Either, or both is a dangerous place to be. Both sides will now be working to concoct lies saying they were where they want them to be. Neither location is a good place to be a journalist.
Personally I would like to see them returned, unharmed. However if we are unable to secure their release, I would not start mustering the troops for an invasion.
You know, a funny point about this... it's the US media which really drives these situations to hell, which is why the State department always tells families not to go to the media. Advice which the families involved in this case decided to ignore, in particular.
In any country with people unsympathetic to the US to begin with, the media never helps. Nobody pragmatic actually wants to piss off the USG to begin with (this is where "superpower" comes into play, honest). But when the media steps in, suddenly every local politician and their dog needs to show how tough and independent they are. Nationalism and patriotic fervor take precedence; any concession to US pressure is a loss of 'face'. It's a brilliant opportunity for the most illiberal extremist local politicians to revitalize their careers by trashing American imperialism and accusing whatever current government of weakness (hence why liberal forces elsewhere always facepalm when American liberal groups try to 'help').
Then there's an equivalent media pressure in the US for the government to 1) rescue its citizens 2) condemn the foreign government 3) without offering any concessions in exchange; if anything, preferably vague threats of future military action. This leaves the State department with exactly nothing to offer as an incentive, of course.
With North Korea the situation is oddly one-sided; local North Korean opinion is irrelevant. But the media impact on the US side doesn't help, really.
Bill Richardson managed to get an American out of North Korea for $5000.
Let's not sit back and pretend that the leadership of NK are a group of madmen geniuses. They are politicians that have a lot of power, they live really damn well, and they are looking to continue that lifestyle for themselves.
Two journalists are pretty small poker chips when NK has nuclear weapons. If it wasn't these two it would be someone or something else. This is all obviously part of a buildup, a strategy by NK to get something. It's politics.
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Let's get this straight. Two journalists were in China, a nation where we have favorable relations, covering a story about North Korea, a nation in which we have no poor relations and almost no information from within the country. We know people are starving, we know political dissidence is met with the utmost belligerence, and we know that the few who manage to get out of the country are more likely to be preyed upon than reach sanctuary.
Illuminating the conditions of the North Korean people, the policies of its government, and the consequences of our policies is a non-violent way to start educating the world that this is all of our problem. I would hope these efforts would be protected, at least at some level, by the world's liberal governments regardless of local laws that seek to prevent those efforts.
No one is going to go to war over two journalists, the state department is already focusing on North Korea, and we won't have to trade state secrets to get them back. If it wasn't them it would have been two drunk college kids kidnapped out of Shanghai or an American national on a Japanese fishing boat or who the hell knows.
I hope these two get a HELL of a book deal, too. I hope this shit is all over the media for months. Years. I hope someone takes an iconic photograph and then they make a statue out of it. They can inscribe at the bottom "important journalism often comes from difficult places." But you know, in Latin.
Of course.
I agree with most of your post, but it's worth pointing out that Richardson didn't get Hunziker out of North Korea for $5000. That's essentially pocket change (and was paid by Hunziker's family anyway). What the US really paid was letting North Korea off the hook for other bullshit they were pulling at the time (and presumably pressuring the ROK into going along) - sending 26 commandos into ROK, apparently. This qualifies as "something major".
There's a big difference when "that" is "tossing you in prison" rather than "tossing you in a forced labor starvation death camp."
And when in certain countries they stone women to death because her husband cheated on her, we should just be like "well, she broke the law!"
Also, nowhere am I saying anyone should start a war over this. You seem to think however that what is happening to them is just justice served by the DPRK with the "why should we care" question.