It's the same thing with racing simulators. You can have the most advance cockpit using the most advance racing simulator and it still pales in comparison with hoping in a real car and doing a real race. So basically you have to go in knowing that it's dumb down to some level to make the game appealing to a wider audience.
No dumbing down has to occur for the experience to feel different.
The biggest factor there is simply that you are safe in your knowledge in that what you are doing wont get you killed.
verpakeyes on
XBOX live: verpa 15
0
Casually HardcoreOnce an Asshole. Trying to be better.Registered Userregular
It's the same thing with racing simulators. You can have the most advance cockpit using the most advance racing simulator and it still pales in comparison with hoping in a real car and doing a real race. So basically you have to go in knowing that it's dumb down to some level to make the game appealing to a wider audience.
No dumbing down has to occur for the experience to feel different.
The biggest factor there is simply that you are safe in your knowledge in that what you are doing wont get you killed.
Right, so if you want to go through a 4 minute start up every time you jump in a helicopter and pilot it. Be my guess.
It's the same thing with racing simulators. You can have the most advance cockpit using the most advance racing simulator and it still pales in comparison with hoping in a real car and doing a real race. So basically you have to go in knowing that it's dumb down to some level to make the game appealing to a wider audience.
No dumbing down has to occur for the experience to feel different.
The biggest factor there is simply that you are safe in your knowledge in that what you are doing wont get you killed.
Yes. Even in-game, this is visible. In Domination, people don't care about dying. They'll hop on a chopper and fly directly to the target zone despite the fact that they know there are AA emplacements. They'll hop in a jeep and drive straight into a town just for the hell of it. After all, in fifteen seconds they can spawn and teleport to the MLRS, right?
In coop, on the other hand, a single infantry contact can cause every player on the server to have watery bowels because if they are seen and shot there is no coming back.
I don't really care how to start up a vehicle. Hitting Q is fine with me and even that super in depth sim that was linked to earlier (the video) has a auto startup feature. I would just like a bit more depth in the flight model esp in fixed wing aircraft, because currently it feels to me almost exactly like flying in BF2.
I'm fine if it's opt in. Having an easy mode for flying is more than fine, I'm not mad at other people for wanting to be able to fly and drive everything from the get go. But I, personally, was hoping for a bit more of a challenge. Having a sudo realistic option to choose would be nice. Maybe someone will mod one in.
LittleBoots on
Tofu wrote: Here be Littleboots, destroyer of threads and master of drunkposting.
0
Casually HardcoreOnce an Asshole. Trying to be better.Registered Userregular
edited July 2009
So get out of the lameanation server and get on the COOP server.
Just because you can play Domination like that doesn't mean you have to. I try not to, and think most people do the same. Excepting the evening when there's only like 6 people and it's too late for srs bsn.
So get out of the lameanation server and get on the COOP server.
I actually want to work on my mission some before we play, so I won't be playing much until the SRS BSNS tonight except maybe a little dom
Edit: Oh, has there been any discussion of what mission we're going to play? There's a pretty simple 16-player coop called "Road to Msta" that I was looking at. It's nothing fancy, just a combat mission, but the guy who made it is an experienced mission designer and from what I saw it seemed like it could be fun. Good for learning tactics together.
syrion on
0
acidlacedpenguinInstitutionalizedSafe in jail.Registered Userregular
edited July 2009
y'all are gettin' it wrong. It is an infantry simulator. The only reason armor and aircraft are a part of the game is simply because modern infantry does encounter this kind of asset on the field. Being focused on infantry, it makes sense that armor and aircraft are only modelled well enough to be a sort of whitebox for testing SOP.
*crazy ideas/christmas wishlist warning* with that said, it would be hella nifty if they had designed this in such a way that it could have other simulators plugged into it, so like you'd buy arma:armor which would be the same level of detail for armor as arma is for infantry. It would be a stand alone game on it's own, but could be networked with the other simulators. In stand alone, each would have the other assests abstracted in a similar way to how arma currently abstracts armor and air.
Also,it is a game and everyone is supposed to be able to at least fly a helicopter around.
Even if you are not an ace and sometimes crash it's still better than: "well i bought this 50€ game but I can never fly a helicopter because I don't have a fully built cockpit and a helicopter license"
Hmm, yes, hooray hyperbole.
You get what I mean though.
I have no idea what you are trying to say.
You know. With the flying and the shooting and the crashing.
What I'm saying is that I'd rather be in a game that allows everyone to be able to fly a helicopter from A to B instead of a game in which only flight simulator pros can use them.
I can see where you are coming from, and I am well aware of why they made the decisions they did when it came to what kind of flight model to construct.
But I frankly cant quite wrap my head around how someone could be mad a developer of a simulation title for adding more simulation elements.
One of the best parts of sims is the learning experience which everyone on the PA server have been going through together. I cant count how many times I have heard, "Oh I didn't know you could do that" or some variation.
Though I have to admit any time anyone asks what that DP round is for I have a really hard time not cracking the obvious joke.
Well,you have to remember though,this is a military sim or a "war" sim. So it's not made to accurately simulate the real world flight model/vehicle model/infantry movement. It's trying to simulate a war/large battle. So it has to give people tools usable in a way to actually start a war/fight in the game.
In the real world, it's obvious that you would have to train years before they let you in a fight. But in a game you can't have that luxury, you can't expect to be amazing from the start but you should at least be able to use everything there is.
What I'm saying is that this game is great at what it is and what it's trying to do.
TLDR: Being a "sim" doesn't mean it simulates the real world in it's entirety.
You are right the sim does a really good job of being an infantry sim, with all the other vehicles there only really exist to provide some fluff to that aspect.
I would kill for a full sim though, if for no other reason then it would properly model a ground breaking feature called INDOORS. Thats right building have insides too imagine that.
I agree. I was hoping for an ultra realistic game, but it's lacking many basic features that I was expecting. If this was a full sim, most of you guys would be lost though. You'd have to read the actual FM's (and probably TM's too) and you probably wouldn't even be able to start up a HMMWV. It would be a much more complex game, but the overall experience would be much more rewarding.
Well, this is already a niche game. If it was next to impossible to start armor without reading the FM and nobody who didn't have a simulated cockpit could fly a helicopter, it would be even more of a niche game.
In fact, it would be VBS.
Edit: also, its realism is obviously "off" in terms of vehicles and indoor combat, but honestly it's the most realistic feeling infantry game I've played. It doesn't model things like thirst or overall fatigue, but it goes far enough beyond things like BF2 that 90% of the people I know who play FPSes try the demo, tell me it's too detailed ("why do i need a command for holding my breath, another for bringing up my scope, another for binoculars, another for a watch, and another for a compass?! that's just bad game design!").
I don't know about you, but I like being able to play missions with actual players.
I've "played" VBS2 and it works just like this game, but many of the enemy are controlled by the trainer and he sets up certain events based on the group's actions.
I agree. I was hoping for an ultra realistic game, but it's lacking many basic features that I was expecting. If this was a full sim, most of you guys would be lost though. You'd have to read the actual FM's (and probably TM's too) and you probably wouldn't even be able to start up a HMMWV. It would be a much more complex game, but the overall experience would be much more rewarding.
o_O, they just have lever to start them, it says "ON" and "OFF".
In the newer (up-armored) models you can start it that way, but with the models in the game you would have to turn on the battery first which is located beneath the seat in shotgun.
Taranis on
0
Casually HardcoreOnce an Asshole. Trying to be better.Registered Userregular
edited July 2009
Even with that in mind, it's still not 100%.
For example, it's almost impossible to keep in formation because your field of vision is limited to what the Monitor can display. So, unless you have the TrackIR, you have to move your entire body to see whats around you when you're moving, unless you have some mad skills and do that alt-hold move mouse stuff.
For example, it's almost impossible to keep in formation because your field of vision is limited to what the Monitor can display. So, unless you have the TrackIR, you have to move your entire body to see whats around you when you're moving, unless you have some mad skills and do that alt-hold move mouse stuff.
Or a thumb.
LittleBoots on
Tofu wrote: Here be Littleboots, destroyer of threads and master of drunkposting.
For example, it's almost impossible to keep in formation because your field of vision is limited to what the Monitor can display. So, unless you have the TrackIR, you have to move your entire body to see whats around you when you're moving, unless you have some mad skills and do that alt-hold move mouse stuff.
it's not hard to do the alt+mouse thing. also, if your mouse has extra buttons (like thumb buttons) you can make it even easier.
syrion on
0
Casually HardcoreOnce an Asshole. Trying to be better.Registered Userregular
edited July 2009
But then you wont have your thumb for the space bar when you do see something and you want to ID it.
Wow, sweet! I'm going to pick up DCS:BS. That'll be a lot of fun.
That said, I guess what I meant was that at the outside of the envelope the helicopters do fly fairly unrealistically, and they are easier than the helis in X-plane for sure, but they feel close enough... Fixed wing, on the other hand, feels really pretty terrible to me. However since it is an infantry sim that also makes sense since helis are closer to infantry than fixed wing aircraft.
I can't imagine how walking in formation in this game would be more difficult than doing it in real life. Hell I've never even seen anyone try to walk in formation in this game. Everyone walks at the same pace in this game, so once you're in formation you're good until you have to walk around an obstacle.
Taranis on
0
kaliyamaLeft to find less-moderated foraRegistered Userregular
edited July 2009
who's down for some srs business cop at like 8 PST/11 EST?
If you're landing on trees, you're highly likely to get a wood enema.
Its a reference to me diving and skimming trees as close as I can with syrion in the heli. Also me claiming to be able to land anywhere (unless I am being shot by AA).
I agree. I was hoping for an ultra realistic game, but it's lacking many basic features that I was expecting. If this was a full sim, most of you guys would be lost though. You'd have to read the actual FM's (and probably TM's too) and you probably wouldn't even be able to start up a HMMWV. It would be a much more complex game, but the overall experience would be much more rewarding.
o_O, they just have lever to start them, it says "ON" and "OFF".
In the newer (up-armored) models you can start it that way, but with the models in the game you would have to turn on the battery first which is located beneath the seat in shotgun.
Sadly I have taught way to many HMMWV classes to think that most people would would know how to start a HMMWV if they were plopped down in one.
*Switch lever to RUN, wait for yellow light to turn off, turn to ON*
The light always gets them.
Axen on
A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
Hey guys! Got new comp parts installed, and the game is running pretty much like butter on normal settings, with only a bit of slowness on high. Quite happy with that. I'll see if I can get into any games tonight - can I get an invite to the steam group? I believe id is floating_gray
I just played some of the campaign. Somehow the 'copter managed to get shot down, then I got a message that Lopotev was running away in a red hatchback, so I stole a guy's car and tried to chase him
didn't work out
I don't know how the heck that's supposed to work, there are ten different roads they could take
I agree. I was hoping for an ultra realistic game, but it's lacking many basic features that I was expecting. If this was a full sim, most of you guys would be lost though. You'd have to read the actual FM's (and probably TM's too) and you probably wouldn't even be able to start up a HMMWV. It would be a much more complex game, but the overall experience would be much more rewarding.
o_O, they just have lever to start them, it says "ON" and "OFF".
In the newer (up-armored) models you can start it that way, but with the models in the game you would have to turn on the battery first which is located beneath the seat in shotgun.
Sadly I have taught way to many HMMWV classes to think that most people would would know how to start a HMMWV if they were plopped down in one.
*Switch lever to RUN, wait for yellow light to turn off, turn to ON*
The light always gets them.
...that's exactly like every other diesel, ever. >_>
I agree. I was hoping for an ultra realistic game, but it's lacking many basic features that I was expecting. If this was a full sim, most of you guys would be lost though. You'd have to read the actual FM's (and probably TM's too) and you probably wouldn't even be able to start up a HMMWV. It would be a much more complex game, but the overall experience would be much more rewarding.
o_O, they just have lever to start them, it says "ON" and "OFF".
In the newer (up-armored) models you can start it that way, but with the models in the game you would have to turn on the battery first which is located beneath the seat in shotgun.
Sadly I have taught way to many HMMWV classes to think that most people would would know how to start a HMMWV if they were plopped down in one.
*Switch lever to RUN, wait for yellow light to turn off, turn to ON*
The light always gets them.
...that's exactly like every other diesel, ever. >_>
Well I'll be honest with ya, before I joined the army I had never driven a diesel before and most all of my students were in the same boat.
Hell, in the way long ago when I was an E-nothing I had to PMCS a HMMWV with an E-4. He told me to start it up and I sat there dumb face looking for the ignition. :oops:
Axen on
A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
I agree. I was hoping for an ultra realistic game, but it's lacking many basic features that I was expecting. If this was a full sim, most of you guys would be lost though. You'd have to read the actual FM's (and probably TM's too) and you probably wouldn't even be able to start up a HMMWV. It would be a much more complex game, but the overall experience would be much more rewarding.
o_O, they just have lever to start them, it says "ON" and "OFF".
In the newer (up-armored) models you can start it that way, but with the models in the game you would have to turn on the battery first which is located beneath the seat in shotgun.
Sadly I have taught way to many HMMWV classes to think that most people would would know how to start a HMMWV if they were plopped down in one.
*Switch lever to RUN, wait for yellow light to turn off, turn to ON*
The light always gets them.
...that's exactly like every other diesel, ever. >_>
Well I'll be honest with ya, before I joined the army I had never driven a diesel before and most all of my students were in the same boat.
Hell, in the way long ago when I was an E-nothing I had to PMCS a HMMWV with an E-4. He told me to start it up and I sat there dumb face looking for the ignition. :oops:
Well, diesel cars do have ignitions just like everything else, but the 'switch' setting that you use to run the radio without starting the car in a gasoline car is used to warm the glow plugs. Of course, even that confuses new drivers.
Yeah all vehicles in the military are diesel (as far as I know). They start up like regular diesels normally, except they don't have keys, and you have to turn on one or more batteries to start the engine. The bigger the vehicle the more complex it is usually. During my brief stint as a Stryker driver I had to be capable of flipping over a dozen switches when needed (without looking) while driving through periscopes. It wasn't easy.
Taranis on
0
AxenMy avatar is Excalibur.Yes, the sword.Registered Userregular
Yeah all vehicles in the military are diesel (as far as I know). They start up like regular diesels normally, except they don't have keys, and you have to turn on one or more batteries to start the engine. The bigger the vehicle the more complex it is usually. During my brief stint as a Stryker driver I had to be capable of flipping over a dozen switches when needed (without looking) while driving through periscopes. It wasn't easy.
The 113s we had were much the same way. It was tons of fun.
Axen on
A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
Yeah all vehicles in the military are diesel (as far as I know). They start up like regular diesels normally, except they don't have keys, and you have to turn on one or more batteries to start the engine. The bigger the vehicle the more complex it is usually. During my brief stint as a Stryker driver I had to be capable of flipping over a dozen switches when needed (without looking) while driving through periscopes. It wasn't easy.
All of the vehicles I know of run on JP8, apparently that was the big plan to use one type of fuel for everything. I remember being thrown in as a bradley driver when one of the drivers went on leave. Getting ready to roll out the wire is not the time to learn how to just turn the damn thing on, it's only like 4 or 5 switches but so needlesly silly.
As an edit note the first time I even saw a hmmwv was in country xD I was stateside for a year and all of that time was spent with good ol nam era tactics training.... ahhh the Army.
Jean Claude Van Calm on
PSN: Grimmsy- Xbox Live: Grimmsy
0
AxenMy avatar is Excalibur.Yes, the sword.Registered Userregular
Yeah all vehicles in the military are diesel (as far as I know). They start up like regular diesels normally, except they don't have keys, and you have to turn on one or more batteries to start the engine. The bigger the vehicle the more complex it is usually. During my brief stint as a Stryker driver I had to be capable of flipping over a dozen switches when needed (without looking) while driving through periscopes. It wasn't easy.
All of the vehicles I know of run on JP8, apparently that was the big plan to use one type of fuel for everything. I remember being thrown in as a bradley driver when one of the drivers went on leave. Getting ready to roll out the wire is not the time to learn how to just turn the damn thing on, it's only like 4 or 5 switches but so needlesly silly.
JP8! That's right! I remember the Hadjis in Iraq when I had to get gas, "JP8? JP8 sir? JP8?".
Axen on
A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
Yeah all vehicles in the military are diesel (as far as I know). They start up like regular diesels normally, except they don't have keys, and you have to turn on one or more batteries to start the engine. The bigger the vehicle the more complex it is usually. During my brief stint as a Stryker driver I had to be capable of flipping over a dozen switches when needed (without looking) while driving through periscopes. It wasn't easy.
All of the vehicles I know of run on JP8, apparently that was the big plan to use one type of fuel for everything. I remember being thrown in as a bradley driver when one of the drivers went on leave. Getting ready to roll out the wire is not the time to learn how to just turn the damn thing on, it's only like 4 or 5 switches but so needlesly silly.
First time I drove the Stryker I partially disengaged the T-Case while driving by accident.
I also had numerous close calls while driving south on I-5 in Washington state. I'm sure my vehicle came within inches of hitting several POV's.
Edit: Yeah they say JP8's flash point is 100 degrees Fahrenheit but I don't know how many times I'd throw a lit cigarette into a drum full of JP8 and nothing would happen.
Posts
No dumbing down has to occur for the experience to feel different.
The biggest factor there is simply that you are safe in your knowledge in that what you are doing wont get you killed.
Right, so if you want to go through a 4 minute start up every time you jump in a helicopter and pilot it. Be my guess.
Yes. Even in-game, this is visible. In Domination, people don't care about dying. They'll hop on a chopper and fly directly to the target zone despite the fact that they know there are AA emplacements. They'll hop in a jeep and drive straight into a town just for the hell of it. After all, in fifteen seconds they can spawn and teleport to the MLRS, right?
In coop, on the other hand, a single infantry contact can cause every player on the server to have watery bowels because if they are seen and shot there is no coming back.
I'm fine if it's opt in. Having an easy mode for flying is more than fine, I'm not mad at other people for wanting to be able to fly and drive everything from the get go. But I, personally, was hoping for a bit more of a challenge. Having a sudo realistic option to choose would be nice. Maybe someone will mod one in.
Tofu wrote: Here be Littleboots, destroyer of threads and master of drunkposting.
I actually want to work on my mission some before we play, so I won't be playing much until the SRS BSNS tonight except maybe a little dom
Edit: Oh, has there been any discussion of what mission we're going to play? There's a pretty simple 16-player coop called "Road to Msta" that I was looking at. It's nothing fancy, just a combat mission, but the guy who made it is an experienced mission designer and from what I saw it seemed like it could be fun. Good for learning tactics together.
*crazy ideas/christmas wishlist warning* with that said, it would be hella nifty if they had designed this in such a way that it could have other simulators plugged into it, so like you'd buy arma:armor which would be the same level of detail for armor as arma is for infantry. It would be a stand alone game on it's own, but could be networked with the other simulators. In stand alone, each would have the other assests abstracted in a similar way to how arma currently abstracts armor and air.
I've "played" VBS2 and it works just like this game, but many of the enemy are controlled by the trainer and he sets up certain events based on the group's actions.
In the newer (up-armored) models you can start it that way, but with the models in the game you would have to turn on the battery first which is located beneath the seat in shotgun.
For example, it's almost impossible to keep in formation because your field of vision is limited to what the Monitor can display. So, unless you have the TrackIR, you have to move your entire body to see whats around you when you're moving, unless you have some mad skills and do that alt-hold move mouse stuff.
Or a thumb.
Tofu wrote: Here be Littleboots, destroyer of threads and master of drunkposting.
it's not hard to do the alt+mouse thing. also, if your mouse has extra buttons (like thumb buttons) you can make it even easier.
That said, I guess what I meant was that at the outside of the envelope the helicopters do fly fairly unrealistically, and they are easier than the helis in X-plane for sure, but they feel close enough... Fixed wing, on the other hand, feels really pretty terrible to me. However since it is an infantry sim that also makes sense since helis are closer to infantry than fixed wing aircraft.
Good enough works for me. :-)
Switch: 6589-6405-3399
BF3: Spazzway
Steam : Paul [Team Bad]
Man now I don't know which sig/callsign to use
Its a reference to me diving and skimming trees as close as I can with syrion in the heli. Also me claiming to be able to land anywhere (unless I am being shot by AA).
BF3: Spazzway
Steam : Paul [Team Bad]
Fucking ArmA. Why you gotta be exactly like everything I've ever wanted from a video game?
Resident 8bitdo expert.
Resident hybrid/flap cover expert.
Yeah no thanks guy. I think I've put a little too much time into OFP for this lifetime. Also the next 30 lifetimes.
Resident 8bitdo expert.
Resident hybrid/flap cover expert.
Sadly I have taught way to many HMMWV classes to think that most people would would know how to start a HMMWV if they were plopped down in one.
*Switch lever to RUN, wait for yellow light to turn off, turn to ON*
The light always gets them.
didn't work out
I don't know how the heck that's supposed to work, there are ten different roads they could take
Cause I doubt I can play online with just the demo..
Well I'll be honest with ya, before I joined the army I had never driven a diesel before and most all of my students were in the same boat.
Hell, in the way long ago when I was an E-nothing I had to PMCS a HMMWV with an E-4. He told me to start it up and I sat there dumb face looking for the ignition. :oops:
Well, diesel cars do have ignitions just like everything else, but the 'switch' setting that you use to run the radio without starting the car in a gasoline car is used to warm the glow plugs. Of course, even that confuses new drivers.
The 113s we had were much the same way. It was tons of fun.
All of the vehicles I know of run on JP8, apparently that was the big plan to use one type of fuel for everything. I remember being thrown in as a bradley driver when one of the drivers went on leave. Getting ready to roll out the wire is not the time to learn how to just turn the damn thing on, it's only like 4 or 5 switches but so needlesly silly.
As an edit note the first time I even saw a hmmwv was in country xD I was stateside for a year and all of that time was spent with good ol nam era tactics training.... ahhh
JP8! That's right! I remember the Hadjis in Iraq when I had to get gas, "JP8? JP8 sir? JP8?".
First time I drove the Stryker I partially disengaged the T-Case while driving by accident.
I also had numerous close calls while driving south on I-5 in Washington state. I'm sure my vehicle came within inches of hitting several POV's.
Edit: Yeah they say JP8's flash point is 100 degrees Fahrenheit but I don't know how many times I'd throw a lit cigarette into a drum full of JP8 and nothing would happen.