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[Game On] Dawn of War II: The Balancing

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Posts

  • GoombaGoomba __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2009
    So you made units that cost a total of 80 power and the best counter to that was to spend 90 power in addition to what he spent on banshees.

    Goomba on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • BethrynBethryn Unhappiness is Mandatory Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    Is the map editor included with the beta? has anyone played with it yet? I'm curious if it has built in functionality for scripting and triggers? I'd like to see some custom maps and scenarios made by the fanbase. That would be cool.
    Yes, it is. You can find it in <root>/Steam/SteamApps/Common/Dawn of War II, as WorldBuilder.

    Adding Shade to The List.

    Bethryn on
    ...and of course, as always, Kill Hitler.
  • RetzinskyRetzinsky Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Goomba wrote: »
    So you made units that cost a total of 80 power and the best counter to that was to spend 90 power in addition to what he spent on banshees.

    Sorry, my wording was poor. He only bought one squad of Rangers and the Shuriken Platform, but it was enough to render an entirely Scout army useless until I had countered his counter. My point is, do we want to be playing a game like that? One that is essentially Rock/Paper/Scissors? I chose to build only Scouts and he chose to build only Banshees at the start of the match and neither of us knew whether we'd made the wrong choice until the first engagement. My coin-flip had worked perfectly and he spent the entire first part of the game on the back foot because of a gamble we both made on instinct with zero actual knowledge of the enemy.

    Retzinsky on
  • GoombaGoomba __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2009
    Retzinsky wrote: »
    Goomba wrote: »
    So you made units that cost a total of 80 power and the best counter to that was to spend 90 power in addition to what he spent on banshees.

    Sorry, my wording was poor. He only bought one squad of Rangers and the Shuriken Platform, but it was enough to render an entirely Scout army useless until I had countered his counter. My point is, do we want to be playing a game like that? One that is essentially Rock/Paper/Scissors? I chose to build only Scouts and he chose to build only Banshees at the start of the match and neither of us knew whether we'd made the wrong choice until the first engagement. My coin-flip had worked perfectly and he spent the entire first part of the game on the back foot because of a gamble we both made on instinct with zero actual knowledge of the enemy.
    I wasn't really being serious.

    I usually go two guardians against SM anyway.

    Goomba on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • jahsoldierjahsoldier Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    I'm kinda struggling in MP with the beta - I realise Space Marines have become woefully underpowered, but could anyone help me out with a fairly reliable build order & strategy? At the moment I'm just spamming scouts in T1, since they seem like the only decent unit left, but they still get overrun by banshees and the like.

    jahsoldier on
  • Corp.ShephardCorp.Shephard Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Retzinsky wrote: »
    Goomba wrote: »
    So you made units that cost a total of 80 power and the best counter to that was to spend 90 power in addition to what he spent on banshees.

    Sorry, my wording was poor. He only bought one squad of Rangers and the Shuriken Platform, but it was enough to render an entirely Scout army useless until I had countered his counter. My point is, do we want to be playing a game like that? One that is essentially Rock/Paper/Scissors? I chose to build only Scouts and he chose to build only Banshees at the start of the match and neither of us knew whether we'd made the wrong choice until the first engagement. My coin-flip had worked perfectly and he spent the entire first part of the game on the back foot because of a gamble we both made on instinct with zero actual knowledge of the enemy.

    It is true that the game has moved more in a rock-paper-scissors way. Sometimes this can be very frustrating when your paper is... well, paper! It's not nearly that simple though. Tactical Marines versus two guardians, the tacticals should win hands down: but then I threw two well timed grenades and killed two members. Guardians win. Upgraded gear allows units to break their mold. The real killer is commander units, who can radically shift how things interact and play. Two shotgun scouts and heavy bolter against two banshees: A pretty definite victory for the marines. That is, until a warp throw brought them into the banshee suppression, pulling a complete 180.

    I wanted to do a overall impressions post but I'm fucking tired today. We'll see.

    Corp.Shephard on
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    The thing that DoW2 really feels like it needs at the moment is for them to half the requisition cost and build time of every unit, and double the popcap allowance.

    Wat!? I hear you say.

    BUT WAIT KIND SIRS

    At the moment, there are a number of small annoying details that make the early game a bit of a bore. Let me break up my basic thinking.

    The small number of units on the field makes the effects of RPS balancing vastly more severe. If I have built 2 tac squads (1000 req, all I can afford) and I find out that my opponent has 2 squads of banshees, I might as well just bend over. And this is something I CANNOT have done based on what my opponent has built unless I wait. It should be possible to get an early game advantage via superior strategising and mental guesswork, but it should not be a matter of guessing the wrong type of spam and getting utterly annihilated.

    It is clear that the developers were unhappy with how many low-tier units were being fielded, and the longer t1 changes reflect this. The other effect of the change I am suggesting is that it makes power requiring units cost relatively more and take longer to get relative to lower tier units. So this means that even in tier 3, people will be limited more by power than requisition, and have the ability to make the call of spending their req now to get a lower tier unit out rather than waiting for the higher power-costing unit. This might help alleviate tank spam.

    But the real benefit is simple. The more units you can have out, the more use you can make of unit synergy. As things stand, if I want an HBdev squad teamed up with a covering scout squad, that's a huge relative investment. With double the number of units on the field, it's a smaller relative investment, and I have more units to help pull them out of any fires tossed their way. Dow2 is not a game that requires much micro as things stand, so I do not think this would be an undue increase in micro - especially given the addition of the coh style tabbing through selection groups. The more I think about it, the more I want this.

    There are a whole bunch of problems related to map size though >.<

    Thoughts? I haven't totally thought this through, but I can't see any obvious howlers.

    surrealitycheck on
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  • GoombaGoomba __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2009
    That would be incredibly awful.

    All DoW 2 needs is fixes to: Ravener tunnels, spore mines, catalyst, warriors, raveners, spore mines, SM infantry that isn't scouts, rangers, techmarine turrets, and sync kills. I guess something about carnifexes but that comes after the rest of the tyranid army stops being bullshit.

    Seriously, fucking christ, a five second default sync-kill is too much unless it cancels when you hit retreat.

    Goomba on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Seriously, fucking christ, a five second default sync-kill is too much unless it cancels when you hit retreat.

    Out of interest, who has that?

    surrealitycheck on
    3fpohw4n01yj.png
  • AkiraAkira Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    If anything the problem is that there are already too many units being fielded in 1.4 compared to 1.3, combined with the fact that units are much more specialized and micro-intensive. In my opinion moving to the hard-counter system of 1.4 was a mistake, it ends up making things feel very artificial.

    Akira on
    akira.gif
  • Spoom182Spoom182 Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    I just played probably the worst ranked match of my life. It started off pretty well, we had maybe a few hundred points over them. Then out of the fog comes 2 full armies, completely filled with ravener broods and literally nothing else. Both were playing ravener alpha, as well. They just waited outside our base on Angel Gate and ripped a new asshole in everything that walked out. Fuck the ravener.

    Spoom182 on
  • RetzinskyRetzinsky Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    The real killer is commander units, who can radically shift how things interact and play. Two shotgun scouts and heavy bolter against two banshees: A pretty definite victory for the marines. That is, until a warp throw brought them into the banshee suppression, pulling a complete 180.

    Yeah, I don't know how to account for this. How do you factor in a piece of wargear (and Warp Throw isn't the only one) that allows you to turn a bad situation completely on its head? Maybe it's just impossible to balance? At least, in this situation, SM have no counter to being thrown at the feet of Banshees which then suppress them. I worry.

    Retzinsky on
  • TI-83+TI-83+ Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Not blobbing up your units helps, as well as moving when the warlock is acting funny. Warp Throw can't be canceled, not even by death (warlock will perform throw upon revival by teammate).

    TI-83+ on
  • Winnie The PoohWinnie The Pooh Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Retzinsky wrote: »
    The real killer is commander units, who can radically shift how things interact and play. Two shotgun scouts and heavy bolter against two banshees: A pretty definite victory for the marines. That is, until a warp throw brought them into the banshee suppression, pulling a complete 180.

    Yeah, I don't know how to account for this. How do you factor in a piece of wargear (and Warp Throw isn't the only one) that allows you to turn a bad situation completely on its head? Maybe it's just impossible to balance? At least, in this situation, SM have no counter to being thrown at the feet of Banshees which then suppress them. I worry.

    Turrets!

    Winnie The Pooh on
  • The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Bug:

    In observer mode, when one player upgrades his Force Commander with Terminator Honours, the FC moves from the commander box to the regular units box, and is replaced by whichever normal unit is first in the list.

    The_Scarab on
  • GoombaGoomba __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2009
    Seriously, fucking christ, a five second default sync-kill is too much unless it cancels when you hit retreat.

    Out of interest, who has that?
    I know at least the farseer does and I've lost her basically every time I tell her to retreat when she's in the middle of a horde of units because she has the stab the guy, jump on him, get up, admire, and then run. About two steps in she's dead because instead of leaving at 60% health she's running at 20%.

    Goomba on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • CG FaggotryCG Faggotry BristolRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Wraithlord sync kills are also looooooong, like his probable sleeping times.

    CG Faggotry on
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  • GoombaGoomba __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2009
    None of this would matter if units were invulnerable when doing sync kills like in DoW 1. Of course, in that weapons like haywires and meltas weren't on huge cooldowns and didn't screw with vehicles so much.

    Of course, they could just make infantry immune and that solves all of the problems.

    Goomba on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Goomba wrote: »
    Warriors need a buff? Seriously?

    Like, for real seriously?

    They do... if you consider Ravener balanced and need warriors to be comparable in cost/effectivness.

    Gnome-Interruptus on
    steam_sig.png
    MWO: Adamski
  • GoombaGoomba __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2009
    Goomba wrote: »
    Warriors need a buff? Seriously?

    Like, for real seriously?

    They do... if you consider Ravener balanced and need warriors to be comparable in cost/effectivness.
    The BS is the single most apt named weapon in the game.

    Also, if heavy armor goes back to being a good thing, they're going to be right back to being the dicks of the game.

    Goomba on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • BethrynBethryn Unhappiness is Mandatory Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    Bug:

    In observer mode, when one player upgrades his Force Commander with Terminator Honours, the FC moves from the commander box to the regular units box, and is replaced by whichever normal unit is first in the list.
    I noticed that too. Aptly, he was replaced by Shotgun Scouts.

    Bethryn on
    ...and of course, as always, Kill Hitler.
  • DeadOnArrivalDeadOnArrival Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Relic needs to get rid of cover auto seek. It's so goddamn stupid that my units will ignore the orders I give them in order to slowly crawl into cover.

    If I need them laying down all the dps they can muster into an approaching melee squad, heavy cover won't help them diddly squat! Do what I say, goddamn.

    DeadOnArrival on
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  • DeadOnArrivalDeadOnArrival Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Bethryn wrote: »
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    Bug:

    In observer mode, when one player upgrades his Force Commander with Terminator Honours, the FC moves from the commander box to the regular units box, and is replaced by whichever normal unit is first in the list.
    I noticed that too. Aptly, he was replaced by Shotgun Scouts.

    Feature.

    DeadOnArrival on
    2zz3vp4.jpg
  • GoombaGoomba __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2009
    But just those ten minor things! And maybe cover-seek and carnifexes if they get the free time and don't wanna play beer pong or whatever. Ten little things.

    Goomba on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • EstiloEstilo Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    After having to explain to people on GR why phase shifting an army and using ES (1.3 equivalent of 1500 zeal) is not the same as using a spore mines in conjunction with phase armour, I don't wont to post there anymore.

    Also, it is neither the same, nor remotely the same as plasma grenades and phase armour.

    The ignorance hurts. Physically. Physical pain.

    Estilo on
  • TI-83+TI-83+ Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    You can still post on the official forum, where you see "Tyranids" and "Uber Micro" frequently used together in the same phrase, even when speaking of Rav Brood spam.

    TI-83+ on
  • Corp.ShephardCorp.Shephard Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Retzinsky wrote: »
    The real killer is commander units, who can radically shift how things interact and play. Two shotgun scouts and heavy bolter against two banshees: A pretty definite victory for the marines. That is, until a warp throw brought them into the banshee suppression, pulling a complete 180.

    Yeah, I don't know how to account for this. How do you factor in a piece of wargear (and Warp Throw isn't the only one) that allows you to turn a bad situation completely on its head? Maybe it's just impossible to balance? At least, in this situation, SM have no counter to being thrown at the feet of Banshees which then suppress them. I worry.

    Turrets!

    Can't warp throw a turret!

    Problem solved.

    Corp.Shephard on
  • biscuitbutt81biscuitbutt81 Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Do you think they'll ever allow tacs to switch weapons?

    It seems like there are a lot of different ways they could DO THAT and still make them balanced.

    biscuitbutt81 on
  • KasanagiKasanagi Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    So, what I've gotten from this thread so far is that the races still need balancing. Thanks!

    Also I'm a bit confused. The game's been released right? What's in Beta then?

    Kasanagi on
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  • BethrynBethryn Unhappiness is Mandatory Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Kasanagi wrote: »
    Also I'm a bit confused. The game's been released right? What's in Beta then?
    The next big balance patch, because it's a really big change in dynamics.

    Bethryn on
    ...and of course, as always, Kill Hitler.
  • GoombaGoomba __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2009
    Kasanagi wrote: »
    So, what I've gotten from this thread so far is that the races still need balancing. Thanks!

    Also I'm a bit confused. The game's been released right? What's in Beta then?
    The balance is more or less fine, there's still some exploitable shit here and there, but it's nothing that couldn't easily be fixed.

    And it's in a sort of patch-beta, like the things MMOs do? It's the next patch and they are letting the public test it before making it live and there's going to be a patch during the beta after the general ideas of what the balance would look like get settled. And I have high hopes for it. The highest.

    Goomba on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • EstiloEstilo Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Kasanagi: It's a good patch with potential.

    Estilo on
  • CG FaggotryCG Faggotry BristolRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Fuck Tyranids. Quite a common phrase that is well merited.

    CG Faggotry on
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  • TI-83+TI-83+ Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Yeah I'm not a fan either of the new zog/paper/scissors approach, and there are several rough edges that need adjustment.

    The 'base' feels a lot more balanced and fun in general though.

    TI-83+ on
  • AkiraAkira Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Oh hey who would like to see me lose to Conceal spam?

    http://www.megaupload.com/?d=SSAUQU01

    Spammable 70% damage reduction global? SOUNDS BALANCED TO ME


    Bonus points for my Apothecary's knockdown gun constantly bugging on the Warlock because he would do his insane long range leap thing mid-cast and bug it out.

    Also for some reason the Warlock kept not being targettable with anything, mostly shotgun knockback.

    Akira on
    akira.gif
  • KasanagiKasanagi Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    ahhh, so the big game changing patch is in beta testing, sort of like what WoW does with the PTR servers. I get it now.

    I've only dabbled in DoW and DoWII when the multiplayer beta was available on steam, as I'm not very good at RTS games. I do however love the 40k universe, and want more of it in my PC gaming life. I will buy this soon.

    Kasanagi on
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  • KlykaKlyka DO you have any SPARE BATTERIES?Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Scarab I just watched that 3vs3 you linked earlier and OMG I had so much fun watching it, those were some EPIC fights.

    Klyka on
    SC2 EU ID Klyka.110
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  • BethrynBethryn Unhappiness is Mandatory Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Klyka wrote: »
    Scarab I just watched that 3vs3 you linked earlier and OMG I had so much fun watching it, those were some EPIC fights.
    The Kommando Nob was legendary with those Stikkbombs. He kills his own garrisoned units and later some of his ally's. I laughed so hard.

    Bethryn on
    ...and of course, as always, Kill Hitler.
  • CG FaggotryCG Faggotry BristolRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Also, Public players fucking suck.

    CG Faggotry on
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  • The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Klyka wrote: »
    Scarab I just watched that 3vs3 you linked earlier and OMG I had so much fun watching it, those were some EPIC fights.

    3v3 is the most fun but also, by property of how matchmaking works, the least common and the one where the most people drop/have connection issues.

    When it hits its stride and you have everything on the goddam map rushing the same 10 square feet of real estate, it's awesome.

    The_Scarab on
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