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How to share space with Athiest pals?
The LandoStander
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I find myself in what seems like a sort of paradoxical situation. In that I find myself nagged about my beliefs not by random uber-christians but by my friends who, seemingly one by one are deciding that they're athiests. I'm by no means a religious man, nor is my wife or my family. I went to a Catholic school but that was more for the class size and such than the fact that it involved a religion of any kind. In fact if anything I'd say my experience made me more resistant to any hard line views on religion.
However, more and more often when we get together and hang out it feels like the conversation inevitably turns to either LOST or about how silly religion is or how very correct Richard Dawkins is. The thing is if I join in the conversation and posit the idea that there's always a possibility that there's something more beyond what science might understand I'm quickly taken to task for not being scientific or some such. So I feel like I'm sort of being recruited into the ranks of the Atheists and I'd really rather not go. I'm quite happy to sit on the Agnostic/vaguely believing fence between religion and not religion. For me what matters is the moment that I find myself in. The existence of God or his non-existence doesn't change much for me. I still have to get up, go to work, pay bills and enjoy marriage to my wife etc. Also, these guys are my friends after all and we do have fun when we're not discussing issues pertaining to the whole Science v. Religion arena. I don't know if they're aware or not of how they're coming off from my view point though so I don't want to just come right out and say "guys I'm not becoming an atheist so please stop discussing it" since that's rather rude and also would likely upset them or piss them off.
I should stress that I don't dislike Atheists, some of them are even my friends after all. It's certainly their right to believe whatever they wish just as it's some religious guy's right to believe in a flying spaghetti monster. So, has anyone found themselves in this situation and have some advice or maybe nice argument enders?
However, more and more often when we get together and hang out it feels like the conversation inevitably turns to either LOST or about how silly religion is or how very correct Richard Dawkins is. The thing is if I join in the conversation and posit the idea that there's always a possibility that there's something more beyond what science might understand I'm quickly taken to task for not being scientific or some such. So I feel like I'm sort of being recruited into the ranks of the Atheists and I'd really rather not go. I'm quite happy to sit on the Agnostic/vaguely believing fence between religion and not religion. For me what matters is the moment that I find myself in. The existence of God or his non-existence doesn't change much for me. I still have to get up, go to work, pay bills and enjoy marriage to my wife etc. Also, these guys are my friends after all and we do have fun when we're not discussing issues pertaining to the whole Science v. Religion arena. I don't know if they're aware or not of how they're coming off from my view point though so I don't want to just come right out and say "guys I'm not becoming an atheist so please stop discussing it" since that's rather rude and also would likely upset them or piss them off.
I should stress that I don't dislike Atheists, some of them are even my friends after all. It's certainly their right to believe whatever they wish just as it's some religious guy's right to believe in a flying spaghetti monster. So, has anyone found themselves in this situation and have some advice or maybe nice argument enders?
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At some points I find myself thinking: "man, they just said some thing I -really- disagree with. Why do I not mind, and why am I saying nothing about it?"
Ultimately I come back to the answer that I'm very much assured in my worldview, and listening to opposing arguments doesn't cause me to get all defensive about it.
The moment someone says something that makes me feel uncomfortable, it's because it's causing me to question my beliefs. I will consider the validity of what was said and either discard it, or alter my worldview.
I hope that actually makes some sense!
I quite enjoy debating stuff like this to be honest, it's fun. Having flaws in your arguments or reasoning picked open improves how you think and refines your views.
I find it's best to just stay the hell out of it, and I'm a pretty hardcore atheist. They don't even need to have the conversations they're having, they're just doing it to "bond" and belong to a club.
No, that's exactly what you say. If they don't listen to you and consider your feelings then what good are they.
Be straight forward and honest with them.
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I guess at the end of the day when my friends see "no God" I choose to see "Who honestly knows?" I'm not sure if that bugs them or what but I feel like they're not at all satisfied with my conclusion even though it works quite nicely for me. Up to that point we typically agree on everything we discuss in terms of its impact on things like politics, education and such. We all went to the same Catholic college even, again not because of belief but because it seems that the Catholics run a decent educational system, plus there weren't that many priests teaching there. Except the Religion/Philosophy department, but that sort of makes sense.
Well, GOD is pretty clearly defined by modern religion as one big santa claus like guy who is all knowing and existed before time was time. You can be agnostic and not believe in one huge invisible man. Which is where a lot of my agnostic friends seem to have the problem with organized Christianity.
I'd just not engage in the debate. They'll either get the hint or your friends are assholes.
I guess it depends how you see religion. Are you religious because of a reasoned argument and because of inner reflection, or are you religious because that was how you were brought up? You can have proper debates with someone of the former school, not the latter.
Why the hell not? If they're that petty that they would get pissed off that they can't alter your world view through nagging that's their problem not yours.
It's not like you're an extremist with absurd views so why should you have to justify the way you think to them? I'm an agnostic too and I resent anyone from either side of the argument attempting to sway me with their propaganda.
You should just tell them straight up that you're entitled to your views as much as they're entitled to theirs and you don't appreciate being force fed their views on the universe.
It's the same thing when friends start discussing politics. You're only going to get someone pissed off, most of the time. Change the topic enough and they'll get the hint. If not, walk away a few times. If they still don't get the hint, find some new friends.
Answer #1 is that if your friends persist in talking about a bunch of crap you don't care about they're just being annoying. If you were Islamic and your group of friends kept talking about how awesome Jesus is, I think it's pretty clear that you'd have good cause to be frustrated. Tell them how you feel, and I imagine they'll back off on the religious talk around you. They probably have no idea you're feeling pressured.
Answer #2 is that "atheist" doesn't have to mean affirming that gods don't exist. It just means that you don't believe in any gods. You can be an atheist and also an agnostic, which means you do not believe in gods but you also don't believe that the existence of gods can be proved or disproved. This sounds like it's about where you are. There's a lot of shit attached to "atheist" but it sounds like for your friends, atheism means more than "I don't believe in gods." For them it means "I consider myself rational and I don't think it makes sense to believe in something so fundamental as whether or not gods or something similar exist without seeing at least a tiny bit of evidence to back that up." Your atheism is of the much weaker sort; you simply don't believe in any gods right now, but you think there might be something else out there because that's kind of how you feel. Your problem is that you feel like you're being recruited by them, and you don't like this. Maybe you should examine why you have a problem witht his. Is it because restricting yourself to the rational is something you fundamentally cannot accept? If so, I wouldn't be worried about being converted, because there's not much they can do about that. If it's something else, though, maybe you should feel less like "they're converting me!" and more like "my eyes are being opened."
Answer #3 is that it seems like all you're adding to their atheist circlejerk conversations are "hay guise what if there's like, something else, you know?" That's not really a helpful addition. You might feel like there's something else but that's really not a basis for the kind of things they're talking about. For all intents and purposes it doesn't really matter if you feel like there's some magic ephemeral force out there or not: they're living their life rationally and not allowing themselves to entertain opinions that don't have any evidence to back them up, and if you want to convince them of anything, you're going to have to do more than say "sometimes I think there's stuff we don't understand." There is no logical link between that and "so maybe you guys should stop talking about how being rational is so awesome."
"Guys, can we please talk about something else? I don't want to have the conversation steer towards what you're talking about every time you guys come over."
Your friends are in the infant stages of a fundamental shift in their belief structures. Part of why they're stuck in this conversational rut is that these are new ideas, and talking about new things is exciting. The other reason is that "woah, there's these other guys I know who are also going through this" and sharing ideas and experiences with your friends is a lot of fun.
Unfortunately you're stuck in the crossfire. A polite "Can we talk about something else?" is your best bet, if the conversation is really getting on your nerves.
I feel I'm really quite rational. I don't deny any of the science they quote at me about evolution or the on going study of particles left over from the big bang etc. I just don't make the same conclusion that they do. From a logical stand point if I was able to scientifically disprove the non-existence of a higher power or rather something beyond science's understanding then that thing is no longer beyond science's understanding. Also it wouldn't really be called faith after that, it'd just be called accepting the reality that there's a God or what have you. I guess they prefer to close the book on things before I do, which is fine with me, but at the same time I feel bothered by their pressing on the issue I wonder if my assertion that I just prefer to allow for the option that they or I could be wrong bothers them?
In the mean time, if you want to actually confront them about it, I'd say that to truly treat reason/science/whatever as the method for discovering truth, they can't say atheism is absolutely 100% correct, since scientific method only talks about what is probable, leaving the possibility of something different happening. That's why I call myself an agnostic atheist, because, although I really don't think religion is true, there is still the possibility for some sort of Deist God who set things moving and chose to not intervene afterward.
To deny that possibility is to do the same sort of thing that organized religion does--to not only say that they have opinions on God, but that they *know* exactly about him, just like organized religion specifies "you can't eat this on these days" or "this is wrong when you're not married" and the like. If they aren't convinced by that argument, I'd just ask them to not have a circlejerk every time you guys talk.
EDIT: You mentioned them talking about Richard Dawkins--in his book, he lists himself as an agnostic atheist, 99.9% sure that there is no God, but not saying 100% because of the reason I listed above.
As long as both parties are respectful of each others' beliefs it never needs to be that big of a deal. I spent the entirety of last year living next door to a house full of Christians, one of whom is my best friend, and all of whom I would consider friends. I don't get offended that they believe in God, and they don't get offended that I don't. Almost every week I'd go round after they'd finished their bible study and we'd watch a film or play poker or Munchkin or whatever.
It just never seemed that much of an issue. We had a few conversations about religion in the time I was there, but the only one that sticks out in my mind is when there was that thing in the news about the supposed missing link fossil sprang up, I mentioned it, and their response was 'again?'
I guess my point is that the OP should use this as an opportunity to discuss his ideas with others. An agnostic will always have that irritated feeling more than others simply because there's no firm ground to stand on either side of that argument, and will have both sides trying to convince him one way or the other. If it helps, the scientific approach to anything never entirely proves anything, only as tight a theory as can be. It's a standard argument that people trot out - 'gravity is just a theory' - but the fact remains that even if you have that tiny shred of doubt in there, doubt is a legitimate standpoint, and you're not wrong for being undecided.
I've not read anything by Richard Dawkins, but I get the impression he's a dick hole. Do with that what you will.
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I am also wired to be scientific. I am currently a student of biology, chemistry, physics, math, and whatever else the university has decided to shove down my throat so I can walk away from all this with a degree in Cell and Molecular Biology.
I have to be really honest and say that I do not see any inherent conflict between the two, and in fact the farther along I go in my studies, the MORE confident I am in my beliefs that God exists. Random chance seems unlikely to me, and who else could keep all this shit straight? Just because you can explain the influence away with strong forces and weak forces and dispersion forces and inertia and momentum and electric impulses and cellular digestion doesn't necessarily mean it's any less there. Call it the strong force or call it The Way God Works. It's semantics to me.
If I ask you about your beliefs or mention my own, it's either curiosity or an interest in having an educated discussion about different ways of seeing things. It's not so you can push your beliefs on me or call me stupid or unscientific or a filthy atheist or whatever people are calling people these days. If you can't respect my beliefs while talking about them, it's not a conversation you get to have with me. I don't care how good friends we are, I will flat-out tell you that.
Believe it or not, it's actually kept some of my friendships more peaceful, knowing that there are things we won't agree upon but we can still hang out and have a good time, or that I'm not looking for conversion so there's no need to bother. Just because you're open to either possibility doesn't mean you need to find or lose religion, and either way your opinions and beliefs deserve respect. So don't let people push you around about it. Doing so won't make anything better.
I know when I've been faced with a hardcore Christian talking about evolution I've ended up using many atheist arguments and ended up coming across that way despite not being an atheist myself.
I've seen this happen (heck I'm pretty sure I did it pretty hardcore too) - one of my housemates became atheist and started grilling other housemates who weren't even all that religious, it just wasn't that important to them one way or the other. He kept hammering at them and looking for arguments.
I regret acting like that when I became an atheist - I was acting like a self-aggrandizing prick and really there wasn't any point to it; it's fantastically difficult to convince people they're wrong about religion, and they'll rarely thank you for it if you do. When my housemate did it, it was disruptive and made people uncomfortable, including people like me who fundamentally agreed with his views.
I say do yourself a favor and read you some Dawkins then. Yeah, he can be a bit of a prick, but he can also be incredibly funny and inspiring. His utter evisceration of astrology had me howling with the giggles.
It's exactly the same way for me. Once I started taking upper level math, physics, and chemistry classes, I started to see a framework that to me can't just be coincidence. And seriously, the Big Bang? That's exactly what I would imagine happening if a higher being created the universe. I just think too many atheists get caught up in being anti-religious, especially the new ones.
My thought is that your friends will get over talking about it all the time - whoever said that they have these new beliefs and are all about them right now is right.
There are always going to be those people though who for some reason find it a personal affront that someone could believe in God.
i would just speak my mind, but if you want to be more subtle then just remove yourself from the situation.
If they have a problem with you being happy, they're jerks and not really your friends.
Also, we should stick to discussing how we can help this guy, not whether or not we agree with his views. That's just asking for a derail.
It makes a pretty big case for atheism, but its main point is in showing what open-mindedness is and means. A lot of people say they're open-minded, when they're actually more close-minded than the people they're accusing of close-mindedness.
It will at least let you think more clearly about the subject, and see any fallacies in what your friends are saying and let you stand up in the discussions they have.
But I agree with the others who say that if the subject annoys or bores you, let them know about it. If they're your friends, they'll be more considerate. If they just keep it up, or become more insistent about the subject, you should just start looking for other friends.
Being an atheist does not necessarily make one a better person: there are assholes in every group.
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At the same time, I would take the advice of the other people in the forum and just ask to change the subject to something you are interested in, unless you actually want to debate philosophy and theology with them.
Edit: I had a woman today apologize to me after she talked about god when she remembered I was an atheist. I was amused!
If they are pressuring you, then yes, they're being dicks and you would be well within your rights to tell them to cram it. If they are real mates they will understand it's making you feel uncomfortable.
If they are just eager about the subject and discussion of it, well just remove yourself when it gets too much for you - "I'm just gonna grab a drink for a bit". They'll cool off on it in a while.
Which is why I don't want to just out and tell them to shut up about it, because they of course hold their beliefs pretty tightly, like anyone who believes anything of this 'importance' I guess. I've done similar things when they start bashing any sort of Republican views I might hold, even though I'm pretty moderate, and some of them get pretty upset. One even questioned whether he could be friends with someone who held a political view so contrary to his own. So I can't deny that there isn't some dickish-ness involved but they're still my friends, we all have points at which we get a little fed up with our pals. As long as we're watching a movie, reading comic books or playing video games or other things one does most of the time while hanging out things are just fine, just that there's sometimes that silence that is sometimes filled with this same sort of discussion. At least when they talk about LOST I can just ignore it because not only do I not care about the show they seem to accept much more easily that I don't like it and thusly aren't prompted to try and convince me to watch the DVDs they have.
I genuinely don't really care, but maybe you do? I dunno... everyone's different so it's pretty hard to give advice on how to act with your friends...
A discussion of religion (or politics) is a fine thing to have among friends if everyone is in the frame of mind to have it; hopefully your friends are aware enough to know that some people out there believe differently than they do and not-retarded enough to not respond to that fact with scorn. WRT religion, there is enough uncertainty on both sides that if you wanted to, you could hold the religious side without trouble. So if you want to have the argument, have it.
If you don't, you can either just ignore their talk and hope they get bored with it (probably they will), or you can tell them to shut up cause it's sort of a lame thing to talk about. which of those things you want to do depends on your temprament and your friends'.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Have you tried just saying to them "Look guys do we really have to do this again? No ones opinions are going to change and continuing down this line of conversation can only lead to bad things. So why don't we just forget about it and play some video games?".
What you need to do is just out right say that you don't like being the TOPIC of these conversations, and that when they choose to have them, you simply won't participate.
It's kind of a social skill to know how to avoid a conversation that might make you uncomfortable and if they call you on it, again, just tell them that you've talked with them about the subject more than you care for.
That said, yeah, I wouldn't want to necessarily hang out with someone who was trying to convert me all the time, for sure. It'd get annoying fast. But some of them might catch on and lay off.
I would also encourage you to try and just learn to stand up for yourself and your beliefs and enjoy a healthy debate. You might give and gain a little empathy for and from your friends.
Secret Satan
There is nothing wrong with D&D (or atheism), but there is definitely something wrong with disrespecting a friend's wishes (yours in this case) not to hear the same self-congratulatory conversation over and over with when the subject matter makes said friend bored or uncomfortable. You need to make it clear that you are not interested in these conversations and are do not want anyone harangue you for your beliefs or try to convert you. If they do not respect your wishes after you make this clear, then they are just assholes.
I don't know that this is a very apt statement.
If all your friends wanted to talk about DnD and you were the only one who didn't, you would honestly ask them not to talk about DnD? I think they'd just grow to see you as sort of a downer.
No, if he wants to hang out with them he needs to both learn to stick up for himself when they gang up on him and to tolerate the discussions they like to have together.
Secret Satan
One thing you need to remember is that labeling yourself and others is usually a bad thing. While I name myself as an atheist, it's only for simplicity when talking to others. I identify more with the notion of apatheism, which is the disregard for whether or not God exists. Like you said in the OP, it's not a major factor, so many other things come up before faith like bills and marriage. But even then, apatheism is just a word and can't fully describe my personal world views.
But as I was saying, you all need to sit down and watch Religulous, with open minds. Your atheist friends are going to love it, but you're also going to find some things to relate to as well, and it's going to open up discussion, more importantly CONSTRUCTIVE discussion that will settle the debates and clear the air.
One point to bring up, and one that is covered in the movie, is that science and religion are not mutually exclusive. You can have faith and rationality both, not just one or the other. The best thing to have above all is humility. Never assume you're 100% right, and tell your friends they shouldn't assume so either. No one, absolutely no one knows the complete truth. Fundamental believers and fundamental atheists are exactly alike in that they are dead set on their beliefs and won't ever consider the others point of view.
Humility, tolerance, and doubt are things to bring to the discussion table, not absolution.