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I was bitten by a dog this morning.

DrezDrez Registered User regular
edited August 2009 in Help / Advice Forum
I wasn't really thinking and didn't do much for the wound except staunch the bleeding. Now I'm reading some things online and I am worried.

First off: The dog is a known entity. It is my friend's dog, and she has had the dog since birth. Apparently it has some kind of fear and retaliates by biting. According to my friend, the dog had his shots recently - I think she said February. No, the dog does not have rabies or anything like that. My friend said she even brushed her dog's teeth the day before.

What worries me is that websites are proclaiming that even if the dog is healthy, complications can arise. I was bitten in the neck and blood was drawn. I didn't really clean the wound...I didn't think much of it at the time.

Do I need to worry? What should I do? This happened about 15 hours ago now...and I'm on vacation, far, far away from home (and my doctor).

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  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    If the dog has had it's shots and you've had your immunizations you probably don't have to worry about things on that front.

    You should always disinfect a wound that broke the skin, dress it properly and re-dress it as needed, but even that probably isn't a big deal unless you have some huge toothgouge in you.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
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  • Bliss 101Bliss 101 Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I'm no doctor, but I do have plenty of experience of being bitten (and witnessing others being bitten) by cats, dogs, horses and even rats, and I'd say you can stop worrying. If the wound had been seriously infected, you'd be having painful symptoms already and you'd know it's time to get to a doctor.

    Bliss 101 on
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  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Dyscord wrote: »
    If the dog has had it's shots and you've had your immunizations you probably don't have to worry about things on that front.

    You should always disinfect a wound that broke the skin, dress it properly and re-dress it as needed, but even that probably isn't a big deal unless you have some huge toothgouge in you.

    Well it's a tiny dog, but the bite was pretty vicious, and it's in the neck of all places. :/

    I don't know the last time I had a tetanus shot, but I'm pretty sure it's been a decade or so.

    Drez on
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  • RaneadosRaneados police apologist you shouldn't have been there, obviouslyRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    well it's a dog and it has germs in its mouth and it bit you in the neck

    so clean it!!!!


    also remember that if you go to the doctor I believe they have to legally report the dog for biting a person

    Raneados on
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Bliss 101 wrote: »
    I'm no doctor, but I do have plenty of experience of being bitten (and witnessing others being bitten) by cats, dogs, horses and even rats, and I'd say you can stop worrying. If the wound had been seriously infected, you'd be having painful symptoms already and you'd know it's time to get to a doctor.

    Thanks.

    Drez on
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  • mtsmts Dr. Robot King Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    yea, if the dog is up to date the thing you need to worry about is infection which is easy, but if you go and wash it out really well you should be fine as long as you keep it clean

    you can pick up some betadyne solution and use that, it will kill anything except healthy/healing tissue. its good stuff to have around

    mts on
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  • MurphysParadoxMurphysParadox Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Also, while I know that dogs are far removed from wolves, you should still watch out for the full moon and perhaps start a strict regiment of wolfsbane. You know, for the lycanthropy (what! Firefox spell checker doesn't know that word! Unacceptable!).

    Infection would be the only concern here. Keep an eye on it and change the bandages daily. Some redness around the wound is normal, but if it feels hot (or you start running a fever) and red lines start appearing to radiate out from the wound, you need a doctor's professional help (i.e. prescription book so you can get antibiotics).

    MurphysParadox on
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  • elfdudeelfdude Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    ^ advice is sound. Except wolfsbane, it takes a seasoned alchemist to know how to use wolfsbane effectively. Being a wearwolf one wrong dose is deadly.

    Infection is the only real problem here. Keep the wound clean (alcohol/peroxide) depending on how bad it is. You obviously didn't get a very aggressive infection if you got one at all (a minor infection could still rear its head) assuming red lines and major swelling (red immediately around the wound indicates healing) don't show up you should be fine. Blood helps to push infections out of wounds as well and given it's on your neck you'd probably have good evidence by now if you were dying.

    Quick question about how the dog bit you though. Did it bite hard (sink it's teeth in all the way) and let go? Did it bite softly and the wound shallow? Did it bite and jerk? By knowing this we can know whether the dog really did bite out of fear or is neurotic or was playing or is simply showing dominance. If it was showing dominance the dog needs to be put down or have a very good dog expert force the dominance out of it. It's a fairly common problem for people who overly baby their dogs not realizing this indicates you're subservient to your dog.

    From the description it sounds like the dog is being dominant. Someone needs to show it whos boss badly or this will happen again.

    elfdude on
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  • garroad_rangarroad_ran Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    elfdude wrote: »
    If it was showing dominance the dog needs to be put down or have a very good dog expert force the dominance out of it.

    Whoa, wtf? It's not hard to establish dominance over a dog. It doesn't take an expert to do it. And putting it down? I don't even want to touch that one.

    garroad_ran on
  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    elfdude wrote: »
    If it was showing dominance the dog needs to be put down or have a very good dog expert force the dominance out of it.

    Whoa, wtf? It's not hard to establish dominance over a dog. It doesn't take an expert to do it. And putting it down? I don't even want to touch that one.

    A dog that does not know not to A) attack a human, and B) Not to attack a human's neck (which could be indicative of the dog aiming to actually kill a person as that's how they do it) needs some sort of professional intervention.


    If this is a little dog I would say to just assert dominance over it. If it's a big dog, I would look at getting the assistance of a professional.

    SatanIsMyMotor on
  • I'd Fuck Chuck Lidell UpI'd Fuck Chuck Lidell Up Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    elfdude wrote: »
    If it was showing dominance the dog needs to be put down or have a very good dog expert force the dominance out of it.

    Whoa, wtf? It's not hard to establish dominance over a dog. It doesn't take an expert to do it. And putting it down? I don't even want to touch that one.

    A dog that does not know not to A) attack a human, and B) Not to attack a human's neck (which could be indicative of the dog aiming to actually kill a person as that's how they do it) needs some sort of professional intervention.


    If this is a little dog I would say to just assert dominance over it. If it's a big dog, I would look at getting the assistance of a professional.
    this isn't a dominance thing if it went for the juggular... it's a kill thing.

    top of the neck, ear, other parts are for dominance, if it went for the throat there is something seriously wrong with the dog.

    and I know you've considered lycanthropy but I'm not sure werewolves go for the neck. perhaps it's a vampire dog...

    I'd Fuck Chuck Lidell Up on
  • rfaliasrfalias Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I was bitten by a miniature dachshund when I was a kid. Tiny little wound on the cheek.

    Was in the hospital the next day because I didn't properly clean it.
    If it starts swelling up and all that, go to doc, you will know if it's infected.

    rfalias on
  • Bliss 101Bliss 101 Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Drez wrote: »
    it's a tiny dog
    elfdude wrote: »
    If it was showing dominance the dog needs to be put down or have a very good dog expert force the dominance out of it.
    this isn't a dominance thing if it went for the juggular... it's a kill thing.

    Yeah, watch out Drez, the poodle has it in for you. Infection is the least of your concerns.

    Seriously, aren't you guys overreacting a bit? Even if the chihuahua or whatever did try to dominate Drez (or kill him), so what? It's not like it can hurt anyone*. The worst that can realistically happen is that it tries the same on a bigger dog and gets hurt/killed, so yeah this behaviour should be trained out of the dog. It's no reason to put a small dog down, though.

    * Unless people deliberately stick their necks out.

    Bliss 101 on
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  • I'd Fuck Chuck Lidell UpI'd Fuck Chuck Lidell Up Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Bliss 101 wrote: »
    Drez wrote: »
    it's a tiny dog
    elfdude wrote: »
    If it was showing dominance the dog needs to be put down or have a very good dog expert force the dominance out of it.
    this isn't a dominance thing if it went for the juggular... it's a kill thing.

    Yeah, watch out Drez, the poodle has it in for you. Infection is the least of your concerns.

    Seriously, aren't you guys overreacting a bit? Even if the chihuahua or whatever did try to dominate Drez (or kill him), so what? It's not like it can hurt anyone*. The worst that can realistically happen is that it tries the same on a bigger dog and gets hurt/killed, so yeah this behaviour should be trained out of the dog. It's no reason to put a small dog down, though.

    * Unless people deliberately stick their necks out.
    1. the fact that it's a small dog doesn't change the law
    2. this still puts babies and small children at risk
    3. i was merely stating the fact that it went for the jugular is something a lot more than dominant. when an intent to kill is the first place it goes the dog needs some serious training (and probably neutering if it's a male)

    believe me, my friends daughter had her face torn up by a dog that had anxiety problems. and when I say torn up I mean nearly torn off... if my friend hadn't been standing right there (and been 6'7 and 260 pounds) I do not think she would be alive today. she already had to have a loooot of surgery just to fix her face and she was only 6 at the time.

    I'd Fuck Chuck Lidell Up on
  • PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Bliss 101 wrote: »
    Yeah, watch out Drez, the poodle has it in for you. Infection is the least of your concerns.

    Seriously, aren't you guys overreacting a bit? Even if the chihuahua or whatever did try to dominate Drez (or kill him), so what? It's not like it can hurt anyone*. The worst that can realistically happen is that it tries the same on a bigger dog and gets hurt/killed, so yeah this behaviour should be trained out of the dog. It's no reason to put a small dog down, though.

    * Unless people deliberately stick their necks out.

    Salmoned for dirty fucking horrible lies. It might not be able to kill a large adult like a police dog, but a child or even a smaller adult could suffer serious, permanent damage.

    Judging by the OP's comment, the dog is a fear-biter. Fear-biters are submissive, not dominant. So everyone saying to "put the dog in its place" will just make it worse.

    PeregrineFalcon on
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  • I'd Fuck Chuck Lidell UpI'd Fuck Chuck Lidell Up Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Bliss 101 wrote: »
    Yeah, watch out Drez, the poodle has it in for you. Infection is the least of your concerns.

    Seriously, aren't you guys overreacting a bit? Even if the chihuahua or whatever did try to dominate Drez (or kill him), so what? It's not like it can hurt anyone*. The worst that can realistically happen is that it tries the same on a bigger dog and gets hurt/killed, so yeah this behaviour should be trained out of the dog. It's no reason to put a small dog down, though.

    * Unless people deliberately stick their necks out.

    Salmoned for dirty fucking horrible lies. It might not be able to kill a large adult like a police dog, but a child or even a smaller adult could suffer serious, permanent damage.

    Judging by the OP's comment, the dog is a fear-biter. Fear-biters are submissive, not dominant. So everyone saying to "put the dog in its place" will just make it worse.

    YES! someone who knows what he's talking about. hi5 falc

    I'd Fuck Chuck Lidell Up on
  • PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Bliss 101 wrote: »
    Yeah, watch out Drez, the poodle has it in for you. Infection is the least of your concerns.

    Seriously, aren't you guys overreacting a bit? Even if the chihuahua or whatever did try to dominate Drez (or kill him), so what? It's not like it can hurt anyone*. The worst that can realistically happen is that it tries the same on a bigger dog and gets hurt/killed, so yeah this behaviour should be trained out of the dog. It's no reason to put a small dog down, though.

    * Unless people deliberately stick their necks out.

    Salmoned for dirty fucking horrible lies. It might not be able to kill a large adult like a police dog, but a child or even a smaller adult could suffer serious, permanent damage.

    Judging by the OP's comment, the dog is a fear-biter. Fear-biters are submissive, not dominant. So everyone saying to "put the dog in its place" will just make it worse.

    YES! someone who knows what he's talking about. hi5 falc

    :hi5:

    Given your location "far away from my doctor" I would get that bite disinfected, as you don't want to give it the chance to get worse.

    And don't put your face near any more dogs that look/act like this:
    hrhrhs.jpg

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  • Portugal.TheMarkPortugal.TheMark Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    OP: The bite should be fine if it's vaccinations are up to date. Going to the doctor, and getting a tetanus ins't out the question for me at least. Just aire on the safe side.

    The Rest of You: Did you ever consider that being a small dog the OP might have done something that to it seemed very threatening. We're much larger than them, and as such they're more apt to feel threatend. Why would anyone consider having it put down? Full blame cannot be put on the dog.

    Portugal.TheMark on
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  • rfaliasrfalias Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Vaccinations have fuckall to do with it getting infected. Dog mouths are dirty dirty pits of bacteria. While he might not get rabies or tetanus, he could still get a mild infection.

    Just watch for swelling and pus.

    rfalias on
  • SkyGheNeSkyGheNe Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    People usually put dogs down when they:

    1. Do a bad job of raising them
    2. Adopt a dog from a shelter that they can't handle, thus see 1
    3. Are too busy to buckle down and figure out what's wrong/pay professionals to rehabilitate the dog and are more comfortable with killing a living thing than putting in some effort.

    God, sometimes people here give the shittiest advice.

    SkyGheNe on
  • Portugal.TheMarkPortugal.TheMark Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    SkyGheNe wrote: »
    People usually put dogs down when they:

    1. Do a bad job of raising them
    2. Adopt a dog from a shelter that they can't handle, thus see 1
    3. Are too busy to buckle down and figure out what's wrong/pay professionals to rehabilitate the dog and are more comfortable with killing a living thing than putting in some effort.

    God, sometimes people here give the shittiest advice.

    Exactly. The dog is put down, because of the transgressions of the owner? Really? Humans can't believe that they are above these animals, and therefore justified in taking their life out of ease. We're not their creators we're their providers. If a human child behaves badly do we immediately start calling out for their euthanization.

    Portugal.TheMark on
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  • KistraKistra Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    1. the fact that it's a small dog doesn't change the law
    2. this still puts babies and small children at risk
    3. i was merely stating the fact that it went for the jugular is something a lot more than dominant. when an intent to kill is the first place it goes the dog needs some serious training (and probably neutering if it's a male)

    believe me, my friends daughter had her face torn up by a dog that had anxiety problems. and when I say torn up I mean nearly torn off... if my friend hadn't been standing right there (and been 6'7 and 260 pounds) I do not think she would be alive today. she already had to have a loooot of surgery just to fix her face and she was only 6 at the time.

    Yeah, tetanus isn't usually a huge worry with dog bites b/c they aren't usually deep puncture wounds (tetanus is an anaerobic bacteria, it can't live in the presence of oxygen). You should be more worried about strep/staph - which are still bad but you just need to be on the lookout for the same signs of infection as any other type of wound. And dogs do not have especially bacteria filled mouths; human bites are actually the worst for getting infected.

    Dog bites are very serious and your friends should consider looking into a veterinary behaviorist (not a regular vet). They are in serious legal trouble if this dog ever bites somebody else. Besides that if their dog is scared to the point of biting their dog is terrified. Probably a significant portion of it's life is spent in fear. That isn't a good way for anything to live. I would strongly suggest you use the dog bite to guilt your friends into getting this dog some help (both for the dog's sake and for the sake of everyone else who will come into contact with this dog in the future).

    Dogs aren't retarded. A small dog is not going to go into predation mode on a fully grown human being. It would be helpful to know more about the details of what happened but I would guess a scared dog bit the closest part of the human (and that happened to be this guy's neck). Was the dog making any noise? Predation is silent and fast with no warnings.

    And dominance theory is complete bullshit. Ignore everyone telling you or your friends to "just dominate the dog". The guy that did the original ethnological studies in wolves has even come out and said that everyone is misinterpreting what he said. Tell your friends to stay away from any behaviorist that talks about dominance. Punishing fear/anxiety reactions makes the situation worse.

    Yes there are (a lot) dogs who act wild b/c they don't have any idea that they are supposed to look to their owners for direction and/or they don't trust their owners to keep them safe but that has nothing to do with the "traditional" pack hierarchy/dominance bullshit.

    Here is a reference of a scientific article of one of the guys who did the studies at Yellowstone that created the wolf-pack-dominance theory. And this newer article completely refutes the older one and says that those types of dominance struggles only occur when huge groups of unrelated wolves are forced to live together in zoos or disturbed habitats like Yellowstone: Mech, David L. "Alpha status, dominance, and division of labor in wolf packs," Canadian Journal of Zoology 77 (1999): 1196-1203. http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/mammals/alstat/index.htm

    And this is completely ignoring the body of literature showing that domesticated dogs have evolved over hundreds of thousands of years to have completely different pack types and structure than wolves. I can't find a free article discussing it, but if you have access to scholarly articles look at Coppinger's work for examples.

    Kistra on
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  • underdonkunderdonk __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2009
    It should be noted that owning a dog like this, with fear biting tendencies, can be a huge liability.

    underdonk on
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  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    OP: The bite should be fine if it's vaccinations are up to date. Going to the doctor, and getting a tetanus ins't out the question for me at least. Just aire on the safe side.

    The Rest of You: Did you ever consider that being a small dog the OP might have done something that to it seemed very threatening. We're much larger than them, and as such they're more apt to feel threatend. Why would anyone consider having it put down? Full blame cannot be put on the dog.

    That doesn't matter. A submissive dog is a dog that lets its owner do whatever the owner wants. If you have a dog that forces you to change your behavior it is not properly trained.

    SatanIsMyMotor on
  • vonPoonBurGervonPoonBurGer Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Kistra wrote: »
    Dog bites are very serious and your friends should consider looking into a veterinary behaviorist (not a regular vet). They are in serious legal trouble if this dog ever bites somebody else. Besides that if their dog is scared to the point of biting their dog is terrified. Probably a significant portion of it's life is spent in fear. That isn't a good way for anything to live. I would strongly suggest you use the dog bite to guilt your friends into getting this dog some help (both for the dog's sake and for the sake of everyone else who will come into contact with this dog in the future).
    So much this. My dog will sometimes give me a little nip on the hand when we're playing and he gets over-excited; he's young and I'm working on letting him know that's not acceptable. A bite on the neck that breaks skin is in an entirely different league, and your friend should be taking this extremely seriously. She lucked out this time, her dog bit a friend who's unlikely to sue her. Next time she might not be so lucky, and unless she addresses the issue there almost certainly will be a next time.

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  • I'd Fuck Chuck Lidell UpI'd Fuck Chuck Lidell Up Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    SkyGheNe wrote: »
    People usually put dogs down when they:

    1. Do a bad job of raising them
    2. Adopt a dog from a shelter that they can't handle, thus see 1
    3. Are too busy to buckle down and figure out what's wrong/pay professionals to rehabilitate the dog and are more comfortable with killing a living thing than putting in some effort.

    God, sometimes people here give the shittiest advice.
    also by law on 2 or more reported bites or 1 really bad on (the dog that bit my friends daughter was put down and the owner paid out the ass for surgery. Seriously, this dog needs help. I can not stress this enough.

    Also by design the neck is never the closest thing to anything unless you are shoving your neck at them.

    I'd Fuck Chuck Lidell Up on
  • elfdudeelfdude Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Sorry, but dogs are one of the few animals that can look at us and think 'that's his throat those are his eyes'.

    If the dog went for the throat it was either attempting to kill or attempting to dominate (dominate is back of the neck). Since I'm assuming OP was a semi stranger it's more likely the dog thinks it's an alpha dog of it's human pack and sees him as a threat. Don't kid yourself that it couldn't kill a human being by attacking his throat, the jugular is fairly easy to slice open, OP is lukcy it didn't nick it or he could've died.

    Small dogs are the hardest to work with when it comes to working the aggression out mostly because they're small and fast little fuckers who are so small that traditional behavior methods don't work very well. It's hard to teach the dog what is good or bad behavior when you can't catch it. I suggested putting it down because IT ALMOST FUCKING KILLED OP, seriously what the hell is wrong with you people that you value a dog's life over a humans? If the dog attacks a child, or manages to surprise an adult the damn thing could very easily kill especially if it's going for the throat (don't kid yourself it wasn't intentionally going for the throat).

    When dogs bite out of fear they do minor puncture wounds. When they bite out of aggression they do vicious bites like OP described. Quick bite like a snake then they usually run show fear. Latching and jerking bites is the method dogs use to eviscerate their prey or enemies.

    Also dogs don't have a concept of their size, they'll frequently pick on animals 10 times their size to dire consequences. Chihuahua have been known to chase cougers off, an animal that is 10 pounds vs an animal that is 200. Trying to say that humans are bigger and thus inherently scare the chihuahua is dumb. Chihuahua are also known to be some of the most stupidly aggressive little dogs because of the fact that humans raise them so wrong.

    While I don't think it's the dog's fault and agree it's the owners unless they get a dog expert I doubt anything they do themselves is going to be able to stop this behavior. Even if the dog bit out of fear it still went for the neck. That's like a person who chokes out of fear no matter how you look at it it's a very dangerous and potentially fatal behavior.

    elfdude on
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  • FireflashFireflash Montreal, QCRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I agree with this. A dog that tries to shred a throat is not a dog that can live amongst people. If a dog I don't know attacked me for no good reason I'd make sure the fucker dies.

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  • illigillig Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    get a tetanus booster

    and force your friend to get some training for the dog... at this point it may be necessary to just manage the dog's aggressive tendencies rather than "fix" them, but your friend should know enough to not put anyone in the position of being bitten

    just b/c it's a cute little dog doesn't mean it shouldn't wear a muzzle around strangers.

    illig on
  • KistraKistra Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    elfdude wrote: »
    Sorry, but dogs are one of the few animals that can look at us and think 'that's his throat those are his eyes'.

    If the dog went for the throat it was either attempting to kill or attempting to dominate (dominate is back of the neck). Since I'm assuming OP was a semi stranger it's more likely the dog thinks it's an alpha dog of it's human pack and sees him as a threat. Don't kid yourself that it couldn't kill a human being by attacking his throat, the jugular is fairly easy to slice open, OP is lukcy it didn't nick it or he could've died.

    Small dogs are the hardest to work with when it comes to working the aggression out mostly because they're small and fast little fuckers who are so small that traditional behavior methods don't work very well. It's hard to teach the dog what is good or bad behavior when you can't catch it. I suggested putting it down because IT ALMOST FUCKING KILLED OP, seriously what the hell is wrong with you people that you value a dog's life over a humans? If the dog attacks a child, or manages to surprise an adult the damn thing could very easily kill especially if it's going for the throat (don't kid yourself it wasn't intentionally going for the throat).

    When dogs bite out of fear they do minor puncture wounds. When they bite out of aggression they do vicious bites like OP described. Quick bite like a snake then they usually run show fear. Latching and jerking bites is the method dogs use to eviscerate their prey or enemies.

    Also dogs don't have a concept of their size, they'll frequently pick on animals 10 times their size to dire consequences. Chihuahua have been known to chase cougers off, an animal that is 10 pounds vs an animal that is 200. Trying to say that humans are bigger and thus inherently scare the chihuahua is dumb. Chihuahua are also known to be some of the most stupidly aggressive little dogs because of the fact that humans raise them so wrong.

    While I don't think it's the dog's fault and agree it's the owners unless they get a dog expert I doubt anything they do themselves is going to be able to stop this behavior. Even if the dog bit out of fear it still went for the neck. That's like a person who chokes out of fear no matter how you look at it it's a very dangerous and potentially fatal behavior.

    Did you read anything I wrote?

    I completely agree that this dog is a danger to itself and to humans.But try to train this dog with traditional methods and you will make it worse. Punishing fear makes the fear worse. (think about it, if this dog gets scared and growls every time it sees a stranger and suddenly every time it sees a stranger it is in pain how is that going to help things?)

    In addition the OP didn't describe the bite or situation. All we know is that it broke skin and bled enough to need staunching. Given the vascularity of the area it wasn't necessarily a tearing bite, we don't know that the dog didn't run away afterwards. Also if you friends get their dog a muzzle be sure they get a basket one and not a nylon tube one, the basket muzzles are the only kind that are safe for dogs to wear for an extended period of time. Biting the back of the neck has nothing to do with dominance, it has to do with what is available.

    In addition the comments about size were in regards to predation. Dogs do know their own size. They just know that size doesn't affect territoriality and their ability to intimidate other animals. Individual dogs do not try to hunt animals that are 10X their own size.

    EDIT and if it has been 10 years a tetanus booster is a good idea even though you aren't at particular risk of tetanus from a bit (mouth are aerobic environments)

    Kistra on
    Animal Crossing: City Folk Lissa in Filmore 3179-9580-0076
  • ShogunShogun Hair long; money long; me and broke wizards we don't get along Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Hey Drez I'm not going to say anything about whether or not this dog should be put down, because I don't know the circumstances of how you got bit nor how bad the bite really was.

    Care to elaborate? If this was your friend's dog what was your friend's reaction to this behavior?

    Shogun on
  • elfdudeelfdude Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Kistra wrote: »
    elfdude wrote: »
    Sorry, but dogs are one of the few animals that can look at us and think 'that's his throat those are his eyes'.

    If the dog went for the throat it was either attempting to kill or attempting to dominate (dominate is back of the neck). Since I'm assuming OP was a semi stranger it's more likely the dog thinks it's an alpha dog of it's human pack and sees him as a threat. Don't kid yourself that it couldn't kill a human being by attacking his throat, the jugular is fairly easy to slice open, OP is lukcy it didn't nick it or he could've died.

    Small dogs are the hardest to work with when it comes to working the aggression out mostly because they're small and fast little fuckers who are so small that traditional behavior methods don't work very well. It's hard to teach the dog what is good or bad behavior when you can't catch it. I suggested putting it down because IT ALMOST FUCKING KILLED OP, seriously what the hell is wrong with you people that you value a dog's life over a humans? If the dog attacks a child, or manages to surprise an adult the damn thing could very easily kill especially if it's going for the throat (don't kid yourself it wasn't intentionally going for the throat).

    When dogs bite out of fear they do minor puncture wounds. When they bite out of aggression they do vicious bites like OP described. Quick bite like a snake then they usually run show fear. Latching and jerking bites is the method dogs use to eviscerate their prey or enemies.

    Also dogs don't have a concept of their size, they'll frequently pick on animals 10 times their size to dire consequences. Chihuahua have been known to chase cougers off, an animal that is 10 pounds vs an animal that is 200. Trying to say that humans are bigger and thus inherently scare the chihuahua is dumb. Chihuahua are also known to be some of the most stupidly aggressive little dogs because of the fact that humans raise them so wrong.

    While I don't think it's the dog's fault and agree it's the owners unless they get a dog expert I doubt anything they do themselves is going to be able to stop this behavior. Even if the dog bit out of fear it still went for the neck. That's like a person who chokes out of fear no matter how you look at it it's a very dangerous and potentially fatal behavior.

    Did you read anything I wrote?

    I completely agree that this dog is a danger to itself and to humans.But try to train this dog with traditional methods and you will make it worse. Punishing fear makes the fear worse. (think about it, if this dog gets scared and growls every time it sees a stranger and suddenly every time it sees a stranger it is in pain how is that going to help things?)

    Yeah, I read your post. I don't disagree with some your points there.

    Feral small dogs are known to go into predatory mode and head for the same animals thier instincts tell them they can. Dogs huge variety in shape is mostly because of a genetic anomaly not our ability at domesticating them that makes it very easy to manipulate them eugenically. Further feral dogs are known to hunt humans regardless of the size. There's dozens of half hilarious stories of packs of small dogs attacking humans. The reality of the situation is that in the animal kingdom humans are amongst the weakest, the wimpiest, the weaponless, the senseless animals. For the most part all we have over animals is our superior intelligence. This is why humans are seen as a relatively small threat for most dogs.

    Dogs are also of the small group of predatory animals (big cats, dogs/wolves, bears might but bears don't need to kill with finesse) that know what parts on other people's bodies do what. They know that if you're eyes are closed you can't see them, they know where your nose is, they know where your neck. This is an evolutionary adaptation to allow them to kill bigger prey the fastest they can with the least injury to them. Dogs don't make many mistakes when they bite you out of aggression or fear. The only way I can see the OP getting accidently bit on the neck is if the dog was growling at him backed into a corner and the OP angry attacked it with his neck. More likely the dog was on the back of the couch or bed quiet giving the OP a false sense of security to which the dog turned around and attacked. While you're scenario is possible it's so unlikely that it's rather laughable. I suppose we'll have to wait for OP to confirm/deny.

    Wolves and dogs are noticeably different in behavior, one thing about dogs is that properly trained they will never turn on their masters. Wild creatures enter into relationships with humans because they feel like it not because they they've been genetically selected for thousands of years to remain loyal. Dogs do organize in a caste system that is distinctly different than wolves if you look at their social structure and compare the two.

    Basically you posted some unrelated misleading information that only vaguely supported your point so I ignored your post.

    I agree with your point about punishment. Punishment is universally from dogs to humans agreed to accomplish very little. Dog behaviorists don't punish aggression or fear, they prevent it from causing damage by keeping the dog from being able to perform such actions (putting them on their sides until they calm down is the most common method to do this) when the dogs begin to calm the behaviorists reinforces the behavior by applying a combination of positive (petting) and negative stimulus to the dog (I'll let you go).

    Most behaviorists will guarantee their work and come back it the problems do. This leads me to believe you don't know what you're talking about.

    You're assuming that negative stimulus = punishment (which it doesn't) and you're assuming that wolf = dog (which it doesn't). Dogs were bred for loyalty it's only natural that they behave this way. On the other hand even if your assumptions are correct it doesn't change the fact that the methodology I describe works and works well. If it's not because of dominance it's because it's nurturing the correct behavior and preventing owners from nurturing the incorrect ones accidentally.
    In addition the OP didn't describe the bite or situation. All we know is that it broke skin and bled enough to need staunching. Given the vascularity of the area it wasn't necessarily a tearing bite, we don't know that the dog didn't run away afterwards. Also if you friends get their dog a muzzle be sure they get a basket one and not a nylon tube one, the basket muzzles are the only kind that are safe for dogs to wear for an extended period of time. Biting the back of the neck has nothing to do with dominance, it has to do with what is available.

    OP said it was a vicious bite, he also told us it was a small dog. Maybe the dog has a doggy catapult that allowed it to jump at OP's throat? No, that'd still be pretty much confirming the dog was actively attacking him. Maybe he was sitting near the dog and it lunged at his throat? No, that'd probably also say it was an aggressive dog. Maybe OP figured since the dog wasn't barking at him or was small he could simply ignore it and laid down on a bed with the dog behind him (dogs tend to be very territorial of beds especially small ones who sleep with their owners) or sat on a couch with the dog behind him surprising the dog to which it lunged at the closest thing (how the neck was the closest thing I haven't the slightest idea). Like I said we'll have to wait for OP to weigh in.
    In addition the comments about size were in regards to predation. Dogs do know their own size. They just know that size doesn't affect territoriality and their ability to intimidate other animals. Individual dogs do not try to hunt animals that are 10X their own size.

    True but only because they've usually learned the hard way getting kicked or getting pwnt by a larger animal or being trained perfectly. It's not uncommon to see a single stray dog charge my horses until the horses finally get tired of it and kick it (even then I've watched them get back up and go after the horses more) there's a reasons why farmers kill strays on sight. Dogs are different than wolves, they were bred for loyalty, most of them have picked up a secondary instinct of herding, and they're naturally evolved to take down larger prey than themselves (much larger). There's a reason a polar bear will run from 2 dogs. There's a reason why a chihuahua can successfully chase off a cougar.

    I think you're overly compassionate to an animal which is coloring your debate. Looking at your display picture I get the feeling you're one of those 'peta'/animal rights people who think their dog is a little person and treat them like kings. While I love my dog to death biting has never been tolerated so my dog doesn't do it. I do know one thing and that is making excuses for your dog misbehaving is simply unacceptable and nurtures the behavior. Either fix it or if the owner's incapable or unwilling to go through the work of fixing it put it down (humane shelters will put aggressive dogs down anyways).

    elfdude on
    Every man is wise when attacked by a mad dog; fewer when pursued by a mad woman; only the wisest survive when attacked by a mad notion.
  • Ash of YewAsh of Yew Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I think as some people have said more info on how it happened, and if the dog has done it before and exactly how "vicious" the bite was is needed before jumping to the conclusion that the dog is out of hand and needs to be put down. Some of the people in this thread remind me of those dudes who's kids get nipped by a dog (probably for doing something stupid like harassing it), drawing blood (OMGOD BLOOD) and having their neighbor's dog put down as a result.
    Fucked up.

    Yes owners need to discipline their pets. No it's not really acceptable for a dog to go around biting people for no reason, but sometimes dogs get overly excited, scared whatever and it happens.

    Ash of Yew on
  • TrillianTrillian Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Kistra wrote: »
    Dog bites are very serious and your friends should consider looking into a veterinary behaviorist (not a regular vet). They are in serious legal trouble if this dog ever bites somebody else. Besides that if their dog is scared to the point of biting their dog is terrified. Probably a significant portion of it's life is spent in fear. That isn't a good way for anything to live. I would strongly suggest you use the dog bite to guilt your friends into getting this dog some help (both for the dog's sake and for the sake of everyone else who will come into contact with this dog in the future).
    So much this. My dog will sometimes give me a little nip on the hand when we're playing and he gets over-excited; he's young and I'm working on letting him know that's not acceptable. A bite on the neck that breaks skin is in an entirely different league, and your friend should be taking this extremely seriously. She lucked out this time, her dog bit a friend who's unlikely to sue her. Next time she might not be so lucky, and unless she addresses the issue there almost certainly will be a next time.

    a) To get your puppy to stop nipping when he's playing firmly grab the scruff of his neck and give it a quick shake; it's what a mother dog would do to stop inappropriate biting.

    b) This was a fear bite. The dude was obviously getting all up in this dog's face and left the dog nowhere to go to get away. It was probably growling, likely had it's ears back, teeth bared and it's tail between it's legs. This guy literally stuck his neck out, and the dog lashed out and tagged it.

    As much as you can blame the dog, blame the owner, you have to have a moticum of common sense when dealing with animals. I have a potentially fear biting dog, a hopelessly anxious border collie. When she encounters most other dogs she goes through the motions of running away, baring her teeth and growling, but she has yet to bite, because she recovers her senses quickly and moves on to making friends. Thankfully, people and dogs have the sense to approach with caution when she's acting fearful because they know there is the chance she may bite. It is entirely obvious when she is not comfortable in a given situation.

    It is not her fault she is anxious, nor is it mine. Some dogs are just more prone to being scared, whether it's the breed, early experiences or just the individual personality of the dog.

    Trillian on

    They cast a shadow like a sundial in the morning light. It was half past 10.
  • KistraKistra Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Having an agility dog makes me a PETA person? Isn't PETA against pet ownership and especially dog sports o_O

    I think you are confused. You are the one equating dogs with wolves, not me. Dominance theory was entirely formulated in response to studies done on wolf packs in zoos and yellowstone. You are talking about dominance like it has any relevance to dog training, I am trying to convince the OP to suggest his friends find a trainer that ignores dominance theory.

    The OP did not say anywhere that is was a vicious bite. I went back and reread it several times to be sure, he said he had to staunch the flow of blood, but as I mentioned the neck is a very vascular area so that doesn't mean much. My personal guess is that the dog was sitting on the back of the couch and the guy sat down - in which case the neck was the closest part of the person. I just can't figure out how else a small dog got to the guy's neck.

    I also don't see how I am making excuses. I told the OP to guilt his friends into hiring a veterinary behaviorist. I also told them to find one that doesn't talk about dominance theory. Punishing this dog will only escalate the dog biting and end up with the dog put down or living a highly regulated life with no contact with people other than the ones it lives with. I also recommended a muzzle as part of management in the meantime and even made specific recommendations about what kind of muzzles are best for long term wear.

    I proposed that the OP suggest his friends work with a veterinary behaviorist who talks about operant conditioning. For example, Karen Overall is one of the more famous ones. She had dog that died recently (of old age) that she used to take around the country as a demo dog b/c it was so trustworthy. She adopted that dog after it put three people in ICU. There are dogs that need to be put down b/c they can never live a fulfilling life but there hasn't been anything said here that indicates this dog is anywhere near that point. Most dogs can be rehabilitated with consistent work.

    Kistra on
    Animal Crossing: City Folk Lissa in Filmore 3179-9580-0076
  • KistraKistra Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Trillian wrote: »
    Kistra wrote: »
    Dog bites are very serious and your friends should consider looking into a veterinary behaviorist (not a regular vet). They are in serious legal trouble if this dog ever bites somebody else. Besides that if their dog is scared to the point of biting their dog is terrified. Probably a significant portion of it's life is spent in fear. That isn't a good way for anything to live. I would strongly suggest you use the dog bite to guilt your friends into getting this dog some help (both for the dog's sake and for the sake of everyone else who will come into contact with this dog in the future).
    So much this. My dog will sometimes give me a little nip on the hand when we're playing and he gets over-excited; he's young and I'm working on letting him know that's not acceptable. A bite on the neck that breaks skin is in an entirely different league, and your friend should be taking this extremely seriously. She lucked out this time, her dog bit a friend who's unlikely to sue her. Next time she might not be so lucky, and unless she addresses the issue there almost certainly will be a next time.

    a) To get your puppy to stop nipping when he's playing firmly grab the scruff of his neck and give it a quick shake; it's what a mother dog would do to stop inappropriate biting.


    b) This was a fear bite. The dude was obviously getting all up in this dog's face and left the dog nowhere to go to get away. It was probably growling, likely had it's ears back, teeth bared and it's tail between it's legs. This guy literally stuck his neck out, and the dog lashed out and tagged it.

    As much as you can blame the dog, blame the owner, you have to have a moticum of common sense when dealing with animals. I have a potentially fear biting dog, a hopelessly anxious border collie. When she encounters most other dogs she goes through the motions of running away, baring her teeth and growling, but she has yet to bite, because she recovers her senses quickly and moves on to making friends. Thankfully, people and dogs have the sense to approach with caution when she's acting fearful because they know there is the chance she may bite. It is entirely obvious when she is not comfortable in a given situation.

    It is not her fault she is anxious, nor is it mine. Some dogs are just more prone to being scared, whether it's the breed, early experiences or just the individual personality of the dog.
    No. You are not a dog, you cannot do it the same way another dog does. If your dog is actually a puppy (under 6 mos) you should use shunning to express your displeasure. Have a long line on your puppy and stop all play for a few seconds when they nip. If they nip a second time grab the long and give them a 30 second time out somewhere the puppy can't see you. Baby puppies know they are very dependent on others and respond well to shunning. Great free puppy book: http://www.dogstardaily.com/free-downloads

    If the dog is over 6 months the same things might work but if they don't seem to be doing anything after a day or two I would move on to general self control and on-switch/off-switch type exercises.

    (Also if you want to there are ways to help your BC be less anxious when she first sees dogs so she doesn't throw so many calming signals)

    Kistra on
    Animal Crossing: City Folk Lissa in Filmore 3179-9580-0076
  • TrillianTrillian Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    The hard part about shunning is you have to be spot-on with your timing or you send mixed messages to the dog. I've trained dogs and horses (and I still do), and that method is used on both, but the timing is tricky (and gets trickier as the animal gets bigger, believe me!). Dogs aren't people and they don't really understand a concept unless it is directly enforced on them time after time, with complete consistency.

    And as for my own dog, she is getting better, finally at age 7. She had a rough beginning, particularly when she was sat on by another dog at a park, shattering her leg, then afterward abandoned at my vet clinic for dead. She used to be terrified of people, especially men and she was so petrified of being abandoned that she couldn't go outside by herself. She has come a long way, but I am pretty much resigned to the fact that she will forever not be totally into other dogs. They smell bad anyway, and try to shark her favorite tennis ball, who could blame her.

    Trillian on

    They cast a shadow like a sundial in the morning light. It was half past 10.
  • elfdudeelfdude Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    This seems like a post by the OP stating it was vicious. Maybe I'm mistaken. I was also unaware that dominance theory was a concrete ideal. (searching on the internet doesn't seem to show that)

    You failed to touch on any of my points and I called you a 'peta' person as in someone who cares too much about animals or values animals over humans. I understand that peta is against all pets, is a bunch of a hypocrites who euthanize their 'rescued' animals and a mad woman's scheme to get attention.

    Also you're a bit wrong about not being able to do what a dog does but I do agree that punishing the puppy isn't right and you use a great example of negative stimulus to train the dog not to nip which is exactly what dog behaviorists concentrate on. If I were to see a dog behaviorist take a chain and beat my dog for misbehaving I would, I don't know what I would do the concept infuriates me. That's not what I'm recommending though.

    Also wolf packs establish an alpha dog that can be challenged. If the alpha dog loses it backs down. Even if there's no established single alpha dog there are wolves that are recognized as stronger or not worth a fight that the others are submissive to.

    Your paper simply states that in the wild where food is scarce puppies seem to get food first and the pack members will defend food from any hungry individuals who attempt to steal it from the puppies. It also states that alpha dominance theory might not be as important as thought for wild wolves

    Dogs establish packs with alpha dogs that can't be challenged. If the alpha dog is challenged the entire pack generally kills the other dog.

    As for why your paper doesn't support your theory. Wolves in the wild were examined to exert dominance and submission, I'm not talking about pack mechanics here I'm saying if your dog exerts dominance to you you've got a problem. Dogs should always be 100% submissive to a human. I'm rather blown away at the conclusion you drew from that paper.

    elfdude on
    Every man is wise when attacked by a mad dog; fewer when pursued by a mad woman; only the wisest survive when attacked by a mad notion.
  • Bliss 101Bliss 101 Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I'd be willing to bet that Drez either picked the dog up or tried to cuddle it and it bit him. I hope he returns to clarify this, because this whole dominance/predation (not to mention OMG WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN) angle is just silly, given how little we know about the incident.

    Fear biters (and according to the OP, this is what the dog in question is, despite whatever theories some people here are trying to brew up) bite whatever is closest or most threatening to them. They don't execute precision strikes at the vitals in these situations, nor do they lurk on the backs of sofas waiting for an exposed neck to tear open. Face and neck injuries from cats and small dogs are common because people have a tendency to stick their faces close (a threatening gesture) and/or pick these animals up, not because the animals are deranged and hell-bent on killing people.

    Bliss 101 on
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  • elfdudeelfdude Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Bliss 101 wrote: »
    I'd be willing to bet that Drez either picked the dog up or tried to cuddle it and it bit him. I hope he returns to clarify this, because this whole dominance/predation (not to mention OMG WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN) angle is just silly, given how little we know about the incident.

    Fear biters (and according to the OP, this is what the dog in question is, despite whatever theories some people here are trying to brew up) bite whatever is closest or most threatening to them. They don't execute precision strikes at the vitals in these situations, nor do they lurk on the backs of sofas waiting for an exposed neck to tear open. Face and neck injuries from cats and small dogs are common because people have a tendency to stick their faces close (a threatening gesture) and/or pick these animals up, not because the animals are deranged and hell-bent on killing people.

    To be totally honest I hadn't considered OP might've picked up the dog.

    elfdude on
    Every man is wise when attacked by a mad dog; fewer when pursued by a mad woman; only the wisest survive when attacked by a mad notion.
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