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The many shades of localization: Confessions By Industry Legends; V Ireland @ Page 4
cj iwakura
The Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered User regular
The Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered User regular
So I've been meaning to have a good discussion about localization practices for a long time, and here's an excellent starting point.
http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/localization/localization.htm
A very interesting article about different means of localization, including interviews with some of the more (in?)famous names, like Victor Ireland(Lunar, Popful Mail, Dragon Force, Growlanser), Ted Woolsey(Final Fantasy 'II', 'III', Secret of Mana), Jeremy Blaustein(Silent Hill 2, Snatcher, Valkyrie Profile, Shadow Hearts), and of course, input from some of today's more known localizing groups, like Mastiff and Atlus.
So in addition to discussing the article(which is very much worth a read), what makes a localization good to you?
There's a few ways to go about it.
-Adapting it for a US audience, like the Phoenix Wright games and Persona 1's infamous translation, both in which the settings were made more Western, with names and localizations to match.
The main difference is that the Phoenix Wright games were brought over with the intent of making the jokes and themes appreciated to a US audience. Most Japanese puns wouldn't make much sense to us, but Americanized ones, when done right, can.
Does anyone really see this guy and think 'Keisuke Itonokogiri'? No, because we know him as Dick Gumshoe, and it suits him perfectly.
On a related note, from the article:
Tina comes across as exotic to Eastern players, so to create a similar effect for Westerners, she was named Terra, whereas Tina would be pretty common sounding to us.
Then on the other hand, you have games like Persona 4, where the games are explicitly Eastern oriented, with localizations to match.
Sure, they could have had their names changed, and the honorifics removed, but then you might have this instead:
So what makes one better than the other? Is there a preference between the two, or should it depend strictly on the game?
Then of course, you have somewhere in between, c/o Working Designs.
They get a lot of flak nowadays, but the fact is, they brought us a lot of games many other US publishers had no intention of touching.
All the same, their localizations had a decidedly... unique flair.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLgK3ZHgNxQ
Working Designs were typically true to the source material, but only to a point. When it came to translating jokes, they tended to take them as far to the Western extent as possible.
The result was frequently hilarious, but they had a tendency to break the fourth wall.
(C/O Lunar.net)
Love them or hate them, WD had a style all their own.
From the article:
There was always a method to their madness, for whatever reason.
And then, last and absolutely least, you have localizers who just didn't bother.
That's one of the more infamous examples, the legendary Mobile Light Force 2, or rather, XS Games' version of Castle Shikigami 1, which removed all the character art and dialogue, and made it a point to pretend the game had no story at all.
Then they brought over the sequel. They changed their tune a little, and kept the dialogue and art intact, except... the result wasn't quite optimal.
Shikigami 2 has some of the worst VA of all time, and a localization that makes little to no sense, possibly because it was too directly translated.
But yeah, that was years ago. Surely US publishers aren't that lazy anymore.
Not quite.
http://www.audioatrocities.com/games/chaoswars/index.html
O3 Entertainment has proved that, yes, even in this day and age, there can be games with not just bad localizations, but nightmarishly terrible ones.
All the VA cast are supposedly family of O3 staff. And the localization shows no regard for any of the characters' histories. Yuri from Shadow Hearts 2, for example, is called 'Uru', completely ignoring what the established localizations refer to him as.
But enough of the nightmares. What's a good example of localization practice to you? Keeping it direct, adapting it proper, or adapting it and throwing any notion of reason out the window?
Personally, I'm fond of whatever makes it enjoyable, so as long as we don't get any more Chaos Wars or Shikigami 2s, we're in good shape.
I do still miss a good Working Designs translation, though.
Oh, and I guess we should also mention the recent trend of fan translations.
(Mother 3, of GBA infamy, which Nintendo never brought to the states for whatever reason)
Groups who attempt to succeed where professional localizers failed, or more frequently, never got the chance.
Too much of a good thing, or a necessary evil?
http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/localization/localization.htm
A very interesting article about different means of localization, including interviews with some of the more (in?)famous names, like Victor Ireland(Lunar, Popful Mail, Dragon Force, Growlanser), Ted Woolsey(Final Fantasy 'II', 'III', Secret of Mana), Jeremy Blaustein(Silent Hill 2, Snatcher, Valkyrie Profile, Shadow Hearts), and of course, input from some of today's more known localizing groups, like Mastiff and Atlus.
So in addition to discussing the article(which is very much worth a read), what makes a localization good to you?
There's a few ways to go about it.
-Adapting it for a US audience, like the Phoenix Wright games and Persona 1's infamous translation, both in which the settings were made more Western, with names and localizations to match.
The main difference is that the Phoenix Wright games were brought over with the intent of making the jokes and themes appreciated to a US audience. Most Japanese puns wouldn't make much sense to us, but Americanized ones, when done right, can.
Does anyone really see this guy and think 'Keisuke Itonokogiri'? No, because we know him as Dick Gumshoe, and it suits him perfectly.
On a related note, from the article:
Generally everyone agreed on needing to create a parallel experience for the English-speaking player, but as Blaustein reiterated, "People mistakenly think if you translate the words or names directly, somehow you're going to be conveying more of the original essence."
He explained how certain words have an exotic echo to the Japanese ear - to replicate this in English you need to change the sound, such as when Woolsey renamed Tina in Final Fantasy VI to Terra. Blaustein agreed, "I'd say Ted was right on the money with Terra. I had this exact conversation with Kojima on Metal Gear Solid. We were talking about characters, and I said, for a Japanese person it has a foreign quality. Decoy Octopus, however you slice it, sounds hokey in English. Looking back, it worked, but not for the same reason the Japanese worked - to them it comes across as impenetrable."
Tina comes across as exotic to Eastern players, so to create a similar effect for Westerners, she was named Terra, whereas Tina would be pretty common sounding to us.
Then on the other hand, you have games like Persona 4, where the games are explicitly Eastern oriented, with localizations to match.
Sure, they could have had their names changed, and the honorifics removed, but then you might have this instead:
So what makes one better than the other? Is there a preference between the two, or should it depend strictly on the game?
Then of course, you have somewhere in between, c/o Working Designs.
They get a lot of flak nowadays, but the fact is, they brought us a lot of games many other US publishers had no intention of touching.
All the same, their localizations had a decidedly... unique flair.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLgK3ZHgNxQ
Working Designs were typically true to the source material, but only to a point. When it came to translating jokes, they tended to take them as far to the Western extent as possible.
The result was frequently hilarious, but they had a tendency to break the fourth wall.
(C/O Lunar.net)
Love them or hate them, WD had a style all their own.
From the article:
JS: What kind of feedback have you received regarding PM?
Victor Ireland: Actually, it's one we get the most compliments on, and one of my personal favorites. The tone of the game demanded a WD-style localization, and we went all out.
JS: How accurate is the translation?
VI: Pretty accurate for the main characters, as I remember. I do know that we changed the name of Blackey to Slick. Blackey didn't fit the character look at all, and Slick tied in with the way he was always trying to be a smooth operator, yet getting into enormous trouble. Mail, Tatto, and Gaw were the same (though Gaw may have been Gau). The minor characters were definitely changed. There was no "Clabberdeen Clotchsnyffer Leetzelwiffle Poopiewouffen von Venuncio Kraken Lichter Rachetface the 14th, Feudal Lord of Odorburg" in the Japanese version.
There was always a method to their madness, for whatever reason.
And then, last and absolutely least, you have localizers who just didn't bother.
That's one of the more infamous examples, the legendary Mobile Light Force 2, or rather, XS Games' version of Castle Shikigami 1, which removed all the character art and dialogue, and made it a point to pretend the game had no story at all.
Then they brought over the sequel. They changed their tune a little, and kept the dialogue and art intact, except... the result wasn't quite optimal.
Shikigami 2 has some of the worst VA of all time, and a localization that makes little to no sense, possibly because it was too directly translated.
But yeah, that was years ago. Surely US publishers aren't that lazy anymore.
Not quite.
http://www.audioatrocities.com/games/chaoswars/index.html
O3 Entertainment has proved that, yes, even in this day and age, there can be games with not just bad localizations, but nightmarishly terrible ones.
All the VA cast are supposedly family of O3 staff. And the localization shows no regard for any of the characters' histories. Yuri from Shadow Hearts 2, for example, is called 'Uru', completely ignoring what the established localizations refer to him as.
As games started using voice actors, the work increased exponentially. Lack of motivation, poor initial scripting, union restrictions and limited budget can create a train wreck - evidenced by O3's nepotistic work on Chaos Wars. But Blaustein offered a defence, "Maybe the guy had no budget at all. Sometimes you're forced to do things you wouldn't normally because of no budget."
But enough of the nightmares. What's a good example of localization practice to you? Keeping it direct, adapting it proper, or adapting it and throwing any notion of reason out the window?
Personally, I'm fond of whatever makes it enjoyable, so as long as we don't get any more Chaos Wars or Shikigami 2s, we're in good shape.
I do still miss a good Working Designs translation, though.
Oh, and I guess we should also mention the recent trend of fan translations.
(Mother 3, of GBA infamy, which Nintendo never brought to the states for whatever reason)
Groups who attempt to succeed where professional localizers failed, or more frequently, never got the chance.
Too much of a good thing, or a necessary evil?
cj iwakura on
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Posts
So you ask what makes localization good. Well, what makes it good is when it actually does it's stated purpose - localize. I think there's a pretty big difference in translation and localization. Translation is just the straight, "Here is what they are saying." Localization has a task of bringing in, fixing, or changing context to make it appropriate for that market (say North America).
I don't want to derail this too much but I think this example fits: Azumanga Daioh was translated and retained all of its Japanese culture jokes. Those jokes aren't meant for us, even if in our language.
For instance, I had to translate the "mage names" of most characters in the Skulduggery Pleasant series. It was NOT easy.
I can talk some more about my experiences. I figure they're not completely different from the whole game localization thing. But if you guys ask questions, it's gonna be easier.
I imagine the job takes a lot of creativity in that regard, almost to the point of where you should be writing things yourself.
Hi5 on the Portuguese, my family never taught me how to speak it.
Of course, it still vaguely horrifies me when I find some just downright wrong old translated line somewhere that I haven't looked at for months and nobody ever pointed or figured out.
Also, I translated 35kb today! It's good to be back to 'work.'
Myself.
Translated [VIDURL="
Honestly though, if I had the time or drive, I'd probably go through almost all of BMW and rewrite vast chunks of it. It took me awhile to find my groove and since expansions to the game were still being released as I was working on it, having the developers spit out ginormous massively buggy chunks of text every 6 months or so did a number on my motivation to do that on my own. Also, outside of the first 6 stages, I was pretty much the only translator or even editor to look at any of the script. It's hard to get volunteers to actually do work for interbutt projects.
Is that even possible?
I'm listening to the GamaSutra podcast on Localization(with some input from Namco-Bandai, Nintendo, Working Designs, Mastiff, Capcom, etc.;), and it sounds like a lot of times they were able to add more content to the dialogue. Most Japanese NPCs tend to repeat needless information, and the original writers don't often go into detail on things, since Eastern players don't ask as many questions about plot as Western ones do.
And yeah, Square Enix have seriously brought their A game lately, especially when you consider stuff like FFT's retranslation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMDwioDiESc
The dialogue in that game mesmerized me, I don't know why.
Silent Hill 2's translation was also unique, in that it was probably bad from a technical standpoint but still worked within the atmosphere of the game. Everything felt off-kilter about the conversations, especially when Angela was involved.
Holy crap, I don't remember the Playstation version being like that at all.
Adding plot to a game that had none? Nothing technically impossible, just very difficult. But maybe it has happened once or twice? I would accept something like a reverse-ikaruga.
Wouldn't that be more of a remake and not a localization / port?
I'm still curious as to what the random person who spoke in japanese did in the original japanese version. Maybe he spoke english without katakana?
Anyway I like this thread. I want to do translation and I'm always curious as to just how much falls into the job of translation and localization. I like to see where the line is drawn and your job officially becomes that of an editor. Atlus had a pretty big localization article written up about EO2 right? About how they had to change stuff around because of system restraints? I found that article fascinating.
Edit: Oh, can we please talk about how much Natsume SUCKS at localizing their stuff? Yes, I enjoy my priest speaking german and my mailman speaking japanese in Harvest Moon. What, translate the movies in the movie theater of Chulip? I think not!
I guess I've gone ahead and ruined the apparent different ending for myself. Yay?
Ikaruga's one of those games(in shmup tradition) where the game itself tells you almost nothing, but if you do some research, there is a ridiculous amount of backstory.
The Shikigami games are the same way.
That's not the ending.
Sadly, the ending went unchanged, and I was hoping the PSP remake would make more sense out of it.
What exactly doesn't make sense about it?
It's not?
Fuck I have a bad memory then.
Haha the research is more like "research the japanese game". My understanding is that they just ripped out most the text for the orginal US release. A reverse-ikaruga would be inserting plot where there wasn't any before. (For instance, if someone inserted some plot scenes between the levels in gradius)
Would that be a remake instead of a localization? Meh.
I have the Dreamcast version of Ikaruga, and it's really not much different, if different at all. There's some text in between levels, maybe, but it's hardly like Shikigami where they go on and on and on about stuff that makes no sense.
She now works as TIME GAL, battling crimes AGAINST TIME.
(Note this is not a stab at Aksys' localization, they did a wonderful job, especially compared to XS' job on Shiki 1 & 2.)
By the way, that is the same Time Gal from the Sega CD game.
Well, they had to keep shoehorning in the same events from TO, no matter how nonsensical they became. :P
Did they not simply remove that text from the english version? It just got me curious whether someone had ever simply inserted some plot lines into an otherwise plotless game.
Re: The article - Hey how the hell are we supposed to know what a kappa is unless the translators leave it in? More kappas.
Pity, it's a wonderful, beautiful and complicated language. Brazilian Portuguese also sounds a hell lot prettier too.
How do you know what a manticore is? Or an aboleth? Or tonberry?
Pray Sixfortyfive finds this thread. The man's an Ikaruga(and Treasure in general) scholar.
That and Woolsey's Final Fantasy Translations are proof that going for a more "correct" translation doesn't always mean it will be better. I've played a fan translation of VI and found it awful. There was no charm to it. It was literal to a fault and worse off for it.
The Pipe Vault|Twitter|Steam|Backloggery|3DS:1332-7703-1083
Not from people renaming them to imps, that's for sure.
Though re-reading the article, that wasn't the kind of localization he was talking about at all!
The Pipe Vault|Twitter|Steam|Backloggery|3DS:1332-7703-1083
One of my roomies never heard of this, so when I told him he paused and simply said, "... that sucks!" with his best "what the hell?" voice.
People seriously tried spelling it with a C? That's stupid on both english and japanese language levels. What idiot group named him that? I demand names!
A long time ago I read a document that was supposedly the original Japanese story for Ikaruga. It was really long and surprisingly involved for characters you never see.
It may have just been the end of this guide, I only skimmed it:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/gamecube/file/914452/23884
But I thought there was more to it.
Uh. The Squaresoft Japanese writers.
The Japanese writers did no such thing, they don't write in Roman characters.