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Poor Halfling Rogue
Ace Jon
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Last summer, I started playing DnD (4e) with a group of friends. It was my first DnD experience, and the group experience was mixed (although we were all new to 4e). We played the H1 Keep on the Shadowfell and it was fun and good. I was an eladrin wizard! We also had a dwarf fighter, halfling rogue, tiefling warlord and a communally-played extra character, human cleric.
When we completed the campaign, I wanted to have a go at DMing. Our previous DM's a good guy (in fact we're all really good friends) but there's only so much you can do with a preset book, we agreed. So! For my adventure, I set the 'hook' that the wizard (my old character) and the cleric (npc) are missing from a month-after reunion. In our place arrives a beaten up owl with a call for help - animal messenger! And in appears a new player - the old DM - as an elf ranger.
It's been good - the players are at level 4 and for the most part having a lot of fun. But here comes the problem - this new elf ranger seems to outclass our rogue in battle nine times out of ten, and can tank almost as well as the dwarf fighter if needs be (although obviously they try to avoid such a situation). The ranger at-wills just seem to do a lot more base damage than the rogue's, and require less to complete (as the rogue's "thing" is gaining combat advantage). This has been detrimental to the rogue player's enjoyment of battles.
I don't want to sell out on enemy difficulty or cheating rolls to make more things hit or whatever - one of the things I've noticed about this group once I became DM is that they are making loads of mental notes about AC ranges based on their hits/misses and exactly how much damage they've done; I've seen them roll 14 and go "well that's a hit, I've got +7 and the monster's AC is either 19 or 20" - then they roll damage and the monster becomes bloodied and they'll mention to everyone "okay, this guy needs around 40-50 more damage and he'll be gone". I don't have a problem with this at all, it just means that allowing hits that were actually misses weill be noticed immediately and seen as a sell out for "the poor little rogue that got replaced".
Want I want to do is somehow create battle situations that are just naturally better for the rogue, but I've written about 8 encounters in my life so far so the ideas just haven't come. I've realised that the ranger gets somewhat neutered in small spaces, but I don't want to put the ranger in relatively bad places, I want to put the rogue in good ones. This problem is also definitely only related to battles - the rogue has had the largest part in roleplaying, and all the players do their part outside of battle (having an evil-aligned "leader" class has proven to be quite hilarious at times).
What do I do? :O
When we completed the campaign, I wanted to have a go at DMing. Our previous DM's a good guy (in fact we're all really good friends) but there's only so much you can do with a preset book, we agreed. So! For my adventure, I set the 'hook' that the wizard (my old character) and the cleric (npc) are missing from a month-after reunion. In our place arrives a beaten up owl with a call for help - animal messenger! And in appears a new player - the old DM - as an elf ranger.
It's been good - the players are at level 4 and for the most part having a lot of fun. But here comes the problem - this new elf ranger seems to outclass our rogue in battle nine times out of ten, and can tank almost as well as the dwarf fighter if needs be (although obviously they try to avoid such a situation). The ranger at-wills just seem to do a lot more base damage than the rogue's, and require less to complete (as the rogue's "thing" is gaining combat advantage). This has been detrimental to the rogue player's enjoyment of battles.
I don't want to sell out on enemy difficulty or cheating rolls to make more things hit or whatever - one of the things I've noticed about this group once I became DM is that they are making loads of mental notes about AC ranges based on their hits/misses and exactly how much damage they've done; I've seen them roll 14 and go "well that's a hit, I've got +7 and the monster's AC is either 19 or 20" - then they roll damage and the monster becomes bloodied and they'll mention to everyone "okay, this guy needs around 40-50 more damage and he'll be gone". I don't have a problem with this at all, it just means that allowing hits that were actually misses weill be noticed immediately and seen as a sell out for "the poor little rogue that got replaced".
Want I want to do is somehow create battle situations that are just naturally better for the rogue, but I've written about 8 encounters in my life so far so the ideas just haven't come. I've realised that the ranger gets somewhat neutered in small spaces, but I don't want to put the ranger in relatively bad places, I want to put the rogue in good ones. This problem is also definitely only related to battles - the rogue has had the largest part in roleplaying, and all the players do their part outside of battle (having an evil-aligned "leader" class has proven to be quite hilarious at times).
What do I do? :O
Yours truly, Ace Jon.
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Use some skirmishers and/or lurkers that can slip through the fight and dogpile the Ranger, see what his damage output is like when stuff's up in his face.
But on a more serious note, Rangers are one of the best strikers out there, and with a Longbow, that's a lot of damage they're churning out. A well-built Rogue will be more accurate than a well-built Archer Ranger, but the Rogue's 1d4 damage dice against a 1d10 from a longbow doesn't stack up well. The Rogue's going to need to either create his own Combat Advantage, work with the Fighter and Warlord to get flanking at every opportunity, and perhaps invest in beefing up his Sneak Attack with Backstabber.
What are the builds your party's using? If the Warlord has some powers that allow allies to shift around, or the Fighter has some push/pull stuff and the rogue has his own powers that let him shift wherever, then he's going to have a better chance at dealing his Sneak Attack each round.
3DS FCode: 1993-7512-8991
Other than that, see what different skills the Rogue and Ranger have, they're both pretty big skill monkies but unless they have everything the same you'll be able to tailor encounters to your rogue's skills somewhat.
The fighter is all about marking the guys and then hitting them more and keeping them in place when they try to shift out. I think he has one thing that lets him shift himself 1, but he's definitely more about holding everyone else in place. The warlord has gone for a clericy/movey support role. When they spend action points, he gives them a healing surge, and he's got abilities that let another player make a melee basic or a move action.
I've introduced bluffing/sneaking to gain combat advantage, which is apparently introduced properly in PH2 - which our warlord just bought the other day so I'll be able to see how to do that correctly next session. The rogue hasn't been having too much trouble gaining combat advantage since, but his damage is just unimpressive. His larger powers rely on lots of dice rather than lots of pluses, and this guy was born with lowroll disease or something because 1s and 2s are his best friends. In fact, even on hit dice with a +12 to hit against AC 18 he'll find a way to miss 4 turns in a row. Obviously that can change in any moment but even when he's hitting, the ranger's hitting for more.
So if I put in some more sneaky enemies that prioritise getting at the ranger - that should help him look less impressive, but the rogue still knows how poor his damage looks in comparison. Are there any situations that really help/favour being a sneaky little halfing bugger?
Edit: they've decided to follow a lead on the wizard that takes them to a swamp. Lots of difficult terrain, lots of open spaces and lots of places to hide. It should suit both of them but I can sneak some sneakies right up next to the ranger...
PS thanks for the help guys
So if he has a good initiative bonus, he can get auto-CA for the first attack each turn. Hopefully, said Halfling Rogue is an Artful Dodger, and he's been working at getting the attacks with the insane shifts on either side. Handspring Assault (a level 1 daily power that can be used as part of a charge, and allows a 2 square shift afterwards) is one that springs to mind, as is Spinning Blade Leap (less damage, but a shift equal to your speed before and after the attack). There are others, Strike and Move (shift Chamod+2 squares, at any point in the shift, make a Dex vs AC attack doing 2[W]+Dexmod damage) as a level 3 Encounter, and From the Shadows, a level 7 Encounter that gives you a shift before an after the attack.
Your rogue needs to be able to dart into a flanking position, stab with Sneak Attack (hopefully with Backstabber), and get out. You might want to suggest one of the feats that allows him to use a Rapier (light blade, +3 prof, 1d8 damage) or Versatile Duellist (allows you to use Heavy Blades with rogue powers and use Sneak Attack with them) to put his damage dice more on-par with the Ranger. Also, Weapon Focus (whichever he goes with) for a static +2 boost, and maybe an item like Bloodied Gauntlets (+2 damage versus bloodied targets) or Iron Armbands of Power (+2 damage with melee attacks) to help him out there, as well as Sly Flourish for one of his At-Wills (1[W]+Dex+Cha damage). If he can get a solid bonus behind his damage, the 1d4 for daggers is less of a problem. If he can get that, AND use a Rapier or Longsword, that's even better. And Sneak Attack is always going to be higher damage than Hunter's Quarry, and you can use it on any target you have CA against it, rather than having to stick with one target. Rogues are opportunists, after all.
3DS FCode: 1993-7512-8991
What you (the DM) should do;
1. Terrain. Lots of open ground and/or difficult to access enemies favors the Ranger. Tight quarters with lots of obstructions to dodge/hide behind favors the Rogue. A mix of the two keeps them both relevant.
2. Enemies. The Ranger is going to at his best against big, slow pounders that are content to beat on the Fighter. The Rogue is much better at dealing with a bunch of maneuverable, tactically-savvy enemies. Some DMs will have monsters attack the Fighter even when they aren't marked, and this lets the other party members sit and plink away at them in relative safety. For the Rogue to shine, there needs to be a nice, chaotic melee going on where he can shift in and out and flank away to his heart's content. Even having enemies that are marked by the Fighter shift away and charge the Ranger will give him something to think about, tactically. The Rogue, on the other hand, will just shift and stab, because that's what he does.
What the player should do;
1. Take Backstabber. He's never going to keep up in the damage fight if he doesn't.
2. Build "away" from the Ranger. If the Ranger is focused on raw damage from a distance, maybe the Rogue can deliver status effects from close up. Rogues have good access to slows and Immobilizes, they can make a decent secondary controller if they really want to. If he's worried about being overshadowed, I would just take it in a completely different direction.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Also, in terms of pure damage, a ranger is going to blow pretty much anybody out of the water without much optimisation - let him have that, and focus elsewhere.
Usually the problem with a character feeling ineffective is that they aren't picking an aspect of their class to focus on. Rogues have some awesome powers for handing out effects - Dazing Strike and Blinding Barrage (level 1 encounter / daily) - if he focuses on that path, he can become a real game-changer.
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We don't have any digital character sheets and I don't have a scanner, so here's some of the things he's got. He's an artful dodger, proficient (and wielding) both a short sword and a crossbow. He's got Improved Initiative, Halfling Agility and Backstabber.
At-wills: Deft Strike, Sly Flourish
Encounters: Positioning Strike, King's Castle
Dailies: Trick Strike, Great Leap
I think the problem (as far as the rogue's character sheet is concerned) is that he was The Damage Class before the ranger came along. None of us really knew what the ranger did until the ranger and I went and built it - and at the time, we just thought he'd be like the rogue but strictly long distance. Also by the looks of the rogue's sheet, he has quite a few movementy abilities but he doesn't use them much I guess (although recently he hasn't found trouble flanking, it's just that he still misses and he has a low damage output in comparison). Also, unfortunately, despite all his bonuses to initiative (including a bonus our warlord gives to the whole party), he likes to roll low on that too.
So I'm going to make the swamp they visit tonight a very sneaky swamp full of enemies that really enjoy backstabbing elves...
And when they reach level 5 - which should be soon - I'll try and encourage the rogue to build away from the ranger.
Thanks a lot guys (and keep it coming if you have more words of wisdom!)
Why has he selected two level 1 encounter powers? Level 3 has Low Slash which really no melee rogue should be without. (a minor action attack gives you a second chance to dish out your sneak attack if your standard action misses, everything else it does is gravy).
Has he gotten much use out of Great Leap? Tumble and Sneak in the Attack are both awesome utilities if he's not been using that (tumble would pretty much negate the desire to have king's castle).
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I said "It's a swamp. Swamps have trees."
This seemed to work. They fought an orc patrol which they managed to sneak up on, and later were beset upon by a halfling group of thieving bandits - who also had a couple of cavern chokers which are totally awesome. One threw our ranger in the way of the rogue's saving stab. Ouch
They made it out alright and for the first time in their careers, didn't check the bodies. I left a +1 Magic Dagger with the chief halfing
We're levelling up to 5 tonight so I'll talk with the rogue about his interesting power choices... I remember him being excited about being able to have two of the level 1 abilities but I didn't really look into it. I don't think he's made very many great leaps...
Change your style depending on how your players play!
It. Is. AWESOME.
and is a definite and substantial loss of damage output if he passes over it.